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Iain Dale is sick of the 'smug sanctimony' of non-voters. So he invites them all onto his programme to take him on, one at a time: 00:50 Caller Katrina demands an option for 'none of the above'. 05:20 Caller Jay thinks it's perfectly 'rational' not to vote, as one vote doesn't matter. 12:32 Iain accuses caller Brian of wanting to be run by a 'government of technocrats'. 18:47 Caller John says that voters don't realise the 'power' of not voting. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #iaindale #ukpolitics #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Try and save the sanctimony, though, because I'm so fed up with people who announce that they're not going to vote and they're really proud of the fact they're not going to vote
0:09
Well, you tell that to people in other countries that have fought for decades to have the right to vote
0:14
Frankly, they make me sick. Am I going over the top there
0:18
No, I don't think you are going over the top. Fair enough, Ian. So if you want to make me sick, 0345 6060 973 is the number to call
0:26
Just justify why you don't intend to vote on Thursday, whether it's in Scotland, Wales or England, because I'm not going to agree with you
0:35
Because I think everybody has a civic responsibility to cast a vote
0:40
And frankly, if you don't vote, don't bother ringing LBC over the next five years and complaining that something has gone wrong in that national or indeed local politics that you don't like because you won't have any right to complain
0:51
You said that people don't vote make you sick. Yeah. normally I value your opinion however
0:58
I'm one of those people who quite often doesn't vote and I do that as for quite a
1:05
principled decision not just because I can't be bothered or I don't value
1:09
my right to vote more because I do actually value my right to vote
1:15
that I'm not going to throw it away on a candidate that I
1:19
don't agree with there's no option in this country for a none of the above
1:26
Well, there is actually. Well, there's a spoil your vote. Yeah. But it's not always clear
1:31
Now there's accidental voting happens when people spoil their vote. And it's never made clear that spoiled votes are actually deliberately spoiled votes
1:43
We're all just lumped in together with people who don't know how to vote
1:47
or so unless they actually put a formal way of counting spoiled votes
1:55
I'm not going to go along and vote. Well, you could actually just write on the ballot paper
2:00
this is a spoiled ballot paper because I don't respect any of the candidates
2:04
Yeah, but that doesn't get counted. Well, it does get counted. It gets counted in the sort of other pile
2:12
There is a figure that's released by the returning officer for every constituency of the number of spoiled ballot papers
2:20
I think they've stopped doing that now. Well, I can't speak for Scotland, but in England they certainly haven't
2:27
I mean, admittedly, you have ones which are unclear, but they count as spoiled
2:32
There are others where someone will have drawn a willy on it, and that counts as spoiled
2:37
And then there are people who have deliberately written something to make clear that their ballot paper is spoiled
2:43
But also as well, though, there are people who have spoiled their paper and that's been counted as a vote
2:49
Because if you don't spoil it properly, and if you just happen to put your mark in one of the boxes
2:55
that can get counted as a vote. Yes, but it sounds as to me, Katrina, and please don't take this the wrong way, he said, hopefully
3:01
but it sounds like an excuse not to get off your backside and go down to the polling station
3:07
I have done both. I've voted, I've stood for election. I've been along and spoiled my paper
3:15
We'll do it again. And the cleanest I've ever felt was the one time that I didn't actually vote
3:22
I actually felt cleaner after that election than I had for any other election
3:26
Well, bully for you for feeling cleaner. But the fact is that there will be one party on the ballot paper
3:32
whatever you think of the individual candidates, there will be one party that you agree with slightly more than the others
3:37
There isn't enough. I don't believe it I mean you've got a multiplicity of parties in Scotland now
3:44
seven parties to vote for well if you don't like any of them a four on your own
3:48
stand as an independent Bizarrely I have actually done that in the past
3:53
I'm probably not allowed to say but I am involved with another party
3:57
but as you know standing for election is actually quite difficult So you're involved with a party
4:03
but you won't vote for it In Scotland they would be in the
4:10
regional vote because for one of the really difficult things for small parties
4:16
is the £500 deposit that you've got to put up now for a small party that doesn't get
4:21
funding from crypto or anywhere else, it's really difficult and that means that a lot of the candidates
4:27
have got to put up the £500 themselves you don't get a lot of votes and you'll lose that money
4:32
but if they're standing on the regional list go and vote for them on the regional list
4:36
And I will do that in this coming up. Ah, so you are going to vote
4:40
I'll vote on the second vote, but I'm not going to vote on the first. Well, that's fine
4:44
But at least you're going down to the polling station and voting or doing a post-vote or whatever you do
4:49
So we've gone through all this conversation and you are actually going to vote
4:54
On this one, I am. I feel I've won. But you haven't, though, because..
4:58
Yeah, I'm getting claps in the gallery there. They are clapping me for trouncing your weak arguments, Katrina
5:06
I'll weave that to your audience to play through one night argument
5:12
Okay Katrina thank you very much indeed Well an entertaining call to start with Jay in Wilson is also very entertaining whenever he phones in Hi Jay Hi Ian Nice to speak to you again Right I feel compelled to win this one
5:25
I've only voted too much before we leave. Well, you usually do, so carry on. Right, so I don't actually normally vote, but we can come back to that in a moment
5:33
because my primary point was about the Gaza issue that you raised. So I won't be voting solely on the Gaza issue, but it will be a primary issue
5:42
perhaps even a decisive issue, but there'll be some balance there. So, for example, I won't be voting Green because they are slightly bonkers
5:49
let's be frank about it. So that sort of draws me to the Lib Dems, where they're clearly..
5:55
They're only slightly less bonkers. Well, I mean, right now, I would argue all our parties are bonkers
6:01
including the conservative and reform. So whenever you vote, you're voting for the least bonkers
6:05
rather than the most sane, aren't you? So on balance, I will probably vote Lib Dems
6:10
But I wanted to really pick up on your point that, you know, it's regrettable that it's all religion based
6:16
I don't think it is about religion. Many, many people that aren't Muslim or aren't Palestinian or Arab will still be voting for Green or Lib Dems because of the Gaza issue
6:25
And there'll be many Jewish people that do, including the Jewish bloc, that often leave the protest, the pro-Palestine protest in central London
6:31
Let me give you another example. If the British government wasn't supporting Ukraine and was actually on the side of Russia, I would vote on that whole issue
6:39
But I don't need to worry about that because my prime minister and my government do support Ukraine and do oppose Russia
6:45
Likewise, if my government was supporting Iran, I'd be out on the streets protesting against Iran and protesting against my government if they supported Iran
6:52
But they don't. Gaza is a unique issue because the government is supporting the very country that is oppressing the Palestinians
6:59
And that's the distinction. It's not a Muslim issue. It's not an Arab issue. It's an issue of justice and balance and fairness
7:06
And I think that's the key point that I think needs to be captured. Well, it is a Muslim issue when you look at what one in five Muslims or one in four intend to vote on Gaza as an issue in these elections
7:15
But for the wider electorate, it's five percent. Yeah, it may be for some, but I wouldn't say it's all
7:20
You know, full declaration, let me be honest here. I am Muslim, but that's not the primary reason why it's important to me
7:26
It's important to me because it plays on my conscience every night when I go to bed that the gardens are suffering so immensely
7:32
And my government that I pay taxes to is supporting that suffering of the Palestinians
7:36
happily I go to bed not worrying that my taxes are going to support the Russian army in crushing
7:41
the Ukrainian population. So I think it's an issue of conscience that you have to take into account
7:47
not about faith. Like I say, I would have voted against the Labour Party if they were supporting
7:52
Russia, which they're not. And I think that's what gets missed. And the balance is just completely
7:58
lacking. If I just make one other point, you had me up against Dov last week, and he made a point
8:02
that 98% of Jews are Zionists. That was plainly incorrect. I tried to get back in
8:07
because you only had three minutes left. All the research is in the UK, 65%
8:11
In America, it's as low as 37%. And even in Israel itself, the Jerusalem Post says it's only 90%
8:16
So there's just so much of this kind of misinformation that comes out, including from guest speakers of LBC
8:21
Well, I think... That balance is so lacking. Oh, come on. Come on
8:25
I mean, look, Dov has been on my programme many, many times. And he's a very passionate
8:31
supporter of an Israeli state. And I think where you and he will disagree
8:37
is possibly on your definitions of Zionism. To me, Zionism means that you support
8:43
the right of a Jewish state to exist. Other people will extend that far more widely than that
8:50
Agreed, yes. And I suspect that's what he was talking about, that figure of 98%
8:55
because it would be a bit odd if most Jews didn't actually believe that
8:59
Yes, fair point. I mean, I don't want to get sidetracked on that issue, but even the 98% figure using that definition, I couldn't find anywhere in all my research
9:06
There are many other figures, but certainly not 98%. But on that point about balance, you know, I have to come back to my point
9:13
I've never voted apart from once in my life, and I'm now in my 40s, but I will be voting on this occasion because of the Garza issue
9:20
And the reason I haven't voted in the past is it's a completely, I think, rational position and a logical position
9:25
And I actually heard a professor from Oxford University, I tried to find the name before I got an out, which I couldn't
9:31
And he said, anyone that votes is the most irrational thing you can do because it actually makes no material difference to the outcome of not only a general election, for example, but even a local election
9:42
Now, I will vote in things like where we go for the Christmas party for lunch because my vote could be decisive in a group of 10, 12, maybe even 20, 30 people
9:50
It could be decisive. and indeed my vote last year for the Christmas lunch was decided
9:54
and we ended up going where I wanted to go. But let's be honest, if I vote for Lib Dems this time now
10:01
is it going to make a difference to which council? Yeah, it could well do. No, it could well do
10:06
The odds of that are lost to win. Seriously, in quite a few seats in local elections
10:12
they are won by one or two votes. There have been ties in local elections
10:16
Sarah Pochin, the MP4 run call, won her by election by six votes
10:21
So don't tell me that the six people who brought that about, their votes didn't count
10:25
They do count. Every vote counts. In certain, in certain... Yeah, but you don't know before you go and vote
10:33
I mean people talk about safe seats There no such thing anymore Well where I am Lib Dem going to wipe the floor of all the other parties And I think there are certain seats where councillors are almost guaranteed to win
10:44
No, they're not. They only win because more people vote for them than the other candidates
10:51
Ian, I could tell you right now who's going to win in Brent, which is where I live
10:55
I could tell you right now, and I'm willing to put £1,000 on it, to your charity of your choice if I'm wrong
11:00
In fact, I put £10,000 on it because I know who's going to win. whether I vote or not makes no difference
11:05
And the same applies to the vast majority of the population. I accept your point that there will be some areas
11:09
where it's very, very finely balanced. In local elections, in general elections
11:14
there's very few number of seats where your vote is going to make a material difference
11:18
Utterly wrong. Why is it that Labour have got a majority of over 400
11:23
as opposed to the previous result where the Conservatives had a majority of 80
11:28
It's because people turned out and voted in all sorts of different ways
11:32
which meant that Labour got a majority. Now, a lot of them didn't vote Labour. They voted reform, which meant that Labour got in
11:38
and Lib Dems to an extent, through the back door because the Conservative vote declined
11:42
But don't tell me those votes didn't count. I'm talking about a single individual vote, Ian
11:47
No, every vote is individual. Yeah, and I'm saying an individual vote won't make a difference
11:53
That's my point. I'm not saying collective votes. Well, collective votes are a collection of individual votes
11:59
I take your point but the point that I'm trying to make to you Ian
12:04
I'm perhaps not articulating it very well if I go and vote on Thursday
12:07
it will not make a material difference to who the councillors are in Brent Council
12:11
and for 99% of your listeners the vote that they make will not 99999
12:18
their vote will not make a You phone me on Friday evening and tell me the result in your local
12:24
area and then I will find council areas where individual votes have made a difference and we'll agree to have a school draw shall we what i'd like
12:32
to say i very much agree with you about um everybody should vote because we're all responsible
12:39
whether we vote or not um for the what governments we get yeah we we have to we have to take on board
12:46
that responsibility even though it's well most most of the most of the world is but is based on
12:54
a faulty governmental system of opposition and government. Why is that a faulty system
13:02
Because it's based on competition and power. It's not based on working out what is the best for the population
13:14
Well, how do you do that without elections? You have a dictatorship. No, no
13:19
I don't have an immediate solution for that, but what we need to do is to work out ways of creating governments based much more on consensus rather than opposition
13:37
Oh, dear, oh, dear. It's funny. I was watching a YouTube clip today of Margaret Thatcher where she was giving an interview
13:44
I think it was about 77 or 78. And she said, you know what? Consensus
13:48
I've had enough of this. consensus has got us into this position. We need a few more people with conviction
13:54
And I think she was absolutely right. Well, I think you can have conviction about creating
14:00
consensus. Well, I suppose that theoretically that's possible. But what you're talking about
14:07
is effectively a government of the people by the great and the good who people think know more about
14:14
these things than they do. So a government of technocrats, we essentially have a government
14:20
of technocrats at the moment. And I'm not sure that's working. No, I'm definitely not talking about technocrats. I'm talking about people who have a genuine
14:30
concern about the welfare of individuals and the whole population. Well, any MP that comes into the studio would say that that's them
14:40
Yes, of course. And most of them will be lying to their teeth
14:44
That's just a statement. That's part of the corruption of politics. If there's any genuine empathy between the politician
14:51
and the people that they want to elect them and they want to give a service to
14:58
then that's a different proposition. Well, I mean, you're grossly generalising. I mean, of course, there are politicians
15:05
who fall into the category that you've articulated there, But there are many, and I know a lot of politicians, I think most of them actually do believe that they're in it for the right reasons and they want to do good for the people
15:21
Maybe that's what they believe. But the actual system that they're supposed to be working in creates division and hostility
15:31
Yes, but the whole point of being a politician is that you put your arguments forward and then the other side argue against them and then the electorate decide who's right. That's the whole basis of democracy, surely
15:44
Yes, it is. And it fails to live up to the creation of a fellow feeling
15:55
Oh save me from feelings yeah well I can understand you say that well I mean look the land does not flow with milk and honey
16:04
we don't all sit round a campfire and sing kumbaya my lord I mean life isn't like that
16:09
life is real and in a way it's all our faults for electing the wrong people
16:16
and it's all our faults for people who complain all the time
16:20
which is what you're doing But, I mean, have you ever stood for election? Well, maybe you don't believe in election, so that's the reason that you haven't
16:27
I vote, I do, yes. I haven't stood in election. Well, maybe you should, Brian
16:35
Not in this sort of system. Can I tell you about my choice, what governs my choices for who I am going to vote
16:42
Yeah, go on. Yeah, well, it starts off with Hannah Spencer was the Green Party's newest candidate
16:53
And she gave, when she won a recent election, she was so inspiring that I thought
17:00
I'm really going to, I really like the values of the Green Party and that they're for the planet
17:09
Oh, are they? It's funny, they never mention it nowadays. Well, that's because Jack Polanski is in charge
17:16
And I'm afraid he doesn't go over the true values of the Green Party, I think
17:23
because it's the stuff he's talked about in terms of drugs and..
17:30
Well, I mean, he's talking far more about sort of foreign affairs, Iran, Gaza
17:39
than he ever does about the environment. Well, yeah, I mean, he needs to have a good policy about the environment
17:53
Anyway, so I was keen to vote for the Green Party until he came in with his policies
18:03
So who are you going to vote for? Well, I think I'm going to vote for the Lib Dems
18:10
I couldn't vote for Labour because they've made such a mess of the country at the moment
18:16
They're failing. And the Lib Dems seem to be the only ones who have an across-the-board set of policies
18:26
Well, we've got two votes for the Lib Dems in the hour so far. Who'd have thought? Thank you very much indeed, Brian
18:31
Carl says, no local issues. Local government is a waste of time. and effort beyond sending a message to the latest lame duck PM, time to go
18:39
Nobody cares about the tiny influence the boomer councillors have. Well, again, a gross generalisation
18:45
John is in Newham. Hello, John. Hi, Ian. Hi. I just wanted to pick up on a point you made to a lady caller, a female caller
18:56
I think she was the last female caller. You said that she couldn't be bothered to get off her backside and go and vote
19:02
Well, I was making what I thought was a possibly amusing assumption
19:09
Yeah, no, no, I'm not taking offence on her behalf. But, you know, if you said that to me, I'd laugh
19:16
But I laugh on her behalf because I don't think people who do vote realise what the power of not voting is
19:25
And I think people quite often go and vote for the best of a bad bunch
19:30
And I sit there thinking at home in dread while the rest of my family, you know
19:35
trod off to the local election station or polling station. And I dread to think what choices they're making by choosing the best of a bad bunch
19:44
which isn't, you know, using the word best is really sort of demeaning to this point I'm making
19:52
I just think if people actually sat at home and said, you know what
19:56
But none of what you're saying is going to fund or fuel reality or life, as you put it
20:03
You need to come up with better policies, a better manifesto. You need to cost what you're saying properly
20:08
You need to win the trust of the people back. Well, stand yourself then, rather than wallowing in your sanctimony
20:14
No, because there are people who are cut out for politics. There are people who are cut out for leadership
20:19
It's not fair for you to say, stand up and give up all of your life. I'm talking about real life, as you said
20:25
I'm talking about people who are able to talk to people, who are able to canvas
20:30
who are able to actually get off their backside, walk down the road. Well, you're an articulate guy
20:35
Why don't you do it? Because I need a party to get behind
20:40
It's like saying, oh, if you think the doctor should do it. You've got at least six parties to choose from
20:46
I mean, surely there is one that you agree with more than another. I would have voted for Green Party
20:51
And to be honest with you, I looked it up, looked up what their manifesto was saying in our area, where I'm from
20:56
whilst the other callers are on the phone. And quite frankly, it's laughable
21:01
I regret typing the blimmin' thing into my phone. Do you know what I mean
21:06
Yeah, well, I do know what you mean on that front. It is a mess. John, I've got..
21:12
I've stood up and told them to go back and do your homework, and we'll vote again next week
21:16
I don't think we should be voting
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