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Lewis Goodall is joined by activist and journalist, Owen Jones, and barrister, Natasha Hausdorff, the legal director of UK Lawyers for Israel. The pair go head-to-head regarding Keir Starmer's latest comments suggesting he wants 'tougher action' on pro-Palestine marches in the UK. The Prime Minister has this week called on protesters to call out those chanting 'globalise the intifada' at Gaza marches, while also suggesting he wanted to see tougher action against people using certain phrases the rallies, although he stopped short of agreeing with calls for a ban on the marches. His latest intervention comes amid repeated warnings from the authorities of a 'deeply troubling rise' in antisemitic incidents across the country in the wake of the double stabbing in Golders Green on Wednesday. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #LewisGoodall #OwenJones #NatashaHausdorff #News #UKNews #UK #Palestine #Israel #Debate #Opinion #Politics #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Well, with the appalling rise in anti-Semitic violent incidents that we are seeing
0:04
which is clearly on the rise in the UK, 2025, the most dangerous year for British Jews
0:08
in terms of anti-Semitic attacks on record. There is more and more focus once again, not least because the Prime Minister has brought it into play
0:15
and the leader of the opposition, Kami Baden-Walk, on the role of marches for Gaza
0:21
Some people have called them hate marches with regards to what is said on them
0:26
There is the allegation, we heard it from Heidi Alexander this morning, the Transport Secretary
0:30
that they have a radicalising effect against Jewish people. This is, of course, something much contested, not least by some Jews themselves
0:38
who are on the marches. Let's get a conversation about this going with Natasha Hausdorff
0:42
Barrister at Six Pump Court Chambers, Legal Director at UK Lawyers for Israel Charitable Trust
0:47
and Owen Jones, you'll know, of course, Goddard, a Guardian columnist, who himself has attended some of the marches
0:51
Thanks so much for joining us both this morning. Natasha, can I just start with you? What do you say to the argument that, although, of course, some appalling things are said
1:00
on these marches, and it is not uncommon to hear appalling things said on marches. It would be an
1:05
infringement on our rights to protest too grave to prohibit them. Well, I disagree. And of course
1:12
at the centre of this is a balancing act, but it's one that has been pretty controversial since these
1:18
marches. And I would call them hate marches for reasons I'd be happy to explain. Since they began
1:23
over two and a half years ago, I remember actually being in a panel with Lord Ken MacDonald and Sir
1:29
Jonathan Hall KC, the independent review of counter-terror legislation, already in November
1:35
2023, if you can cast your mind back to that time. And the general consensus, I have to say
1:42
on the panel is that the police weren't doing enough. I certainly have not accepted throughout
1:47
this period that there were simply insufficient powers. I know we've heard from police commissioners
1:54
all over the country complaining that they need to be given more powers by legislation
1:59
in Parliament. But the fact of the matter is we saw a complete change, at least to an extent
2:04
in the way that these marches were being policed with respect to this incitement and these vile
2:09
calls for genocide against Jews after the horrendous attack on Yom Kippur, on Manchester Jews
2:15
which was, of course, swiftly followed by the tragic incident, another mass attack
2:20
mass killing of Jews at Bondi Beach. So the change in the police's approach wasn't prompted
2:26
by a change in legislation, but a change in attitude. And I think your previous caller, Jodie
2:31
put it exceptionally in explaining what these praises mean, something that has been evident to anyone with the familiarity of the Middle East
2:38
but of course also to the British Jewish community from the very beginning. And unfortunately, the level of ignorance we have seen
2:45
in combating these calls for genocide, for attacking Jews, and of course for globalising the Intifada
2:53
which it's important to note we also saw on the 7-7 bombings
2:57
That globalisation of the Intifada doesn't, of course, just include Jews. It includes ordinary British citizens as well
3:03
And it's high time we take the proper measures, the Home Office, the police
3:07
and also members of the public in calling this appalling rhetoric out
3:11
I understand that, Natasha. And before I go to Anne, I just want to push on one thing. But if there can be no doubt that there are some things that are said on these marches
3:18
that will be appalling, and I'm sure the police ought to deal with them. But if you are a person who feels passionately, does not agree with the idea of genocide against Jews, does not agree with the idea of violence against Jews
3:28
indeed, you stand fiercely against that sort of appalling racism, but you still want to register your profound abhorrence with what the Israeli government is doing in Lebanon and Gaza
3:40
If these marches are banned, how are they to do so? I think this is perhaps the most critical aspect of our conversation
3:49
the most important part of this discussion, which is what the driver of this wave of anti-Semitism that we have seen is
3:55
And the critical driver that is not being discussed, Lewis, is the false information being spread regarding Israel
4:02
And this is something the government does have powers to do something about. Of course in a democratic society people are free to express their views even if I might consider them to be abhorrent But there are things the government can do with respect to ministers spreading false information about Israel which are undoubtedly driving many well people to attend these marches
4:25
But could it be that things the Israeli government itself are doing are driving people to attend these marches
4:29
Well, there I would actually push back and challenge very strongly, because what I continuously
4:33
hear on these marches and in the media, the allegations that are supposedly underpinning
4:38
this action have no basis in reality. They are, if you will, the modern version of the blood libel
4:44
Now, you may say to me, well, there are lots of well-meaning people who believe them. I'm sure
4:48
in the Middle Ages, there were many well-meaning people who'd been deceived, who believed that Jews
4:52
targeted children to use their blood for religious ritual. That was not the case then. It is not the
4:58
case now. The fact of the matter is, if we draw a parallel, perhaps this may assist Lewis, the
5:04
The Allied forces, of course, in the Second World War killed millions of Germans
5:08
Nobody called that a genocide. Nobody called brave RAF pilots conducting bombing raids baby killers
5:16
And yet we have these tropes and these blood libels being circulated with a complete refusal to acknowledge
5:24
and in many circumstances, I'm sorry to say, broadcast the reality. And I say this as someone who's been on the ground in Gaza, witnessing the measures that the IDF takes
5:32
along with members of six NATO armed forces, very senior generals, colonels, majors among them
5:39
Natasha, I've got to bring Owen in. I should say, actually, in the Second World War, there were people who criticized British government action
5:44
in the Second World War, and in terms of being too extreme, particularly the attacking of civilians and so on
5:48
But let's not get distracted by that. Owen Jones from The Guardian. You know what the accusation is here
5:55
It is that these are hate marches, and you've heard what Natasha has to say. What is your response
6:00
The world's been turned on its head. These are the opposite of hate marches. They're peace marches. They're marches opposed to Israel's genocide against the Palestinian people
6:09
It's the expression of opposition to Gaza being wiped from the face of the earth
6:13
Over 100,000 people being killed, according to multiple academic studies. You know, she says, just be clear, Natasha is making it clear that her view is scrutiny and opposition to Israel's crimes is anti-Semitism
6:27
And she has herself said, I've read her article on The Spectator, that accusations of genocide are a blood libel. Omar Bartov is an Israeli academic. He's the Dean's Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies at Brown University. He says, I have been teaching classes on genocide for a quarter of a century. I can recognise one when I see one
6:44
Amas Goldberg, Professor of Holocaust History at the Department of Jewish History and Contemporary
6:48
Jewry at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. I can go on. There's a whole list, but I should say
6:52
of Israeli specialists who dedicate their lives to scrutinizing and researching genocide
6:58
Thousands of Jewish people attend these protests. They hold placards asserting their Jewish
7:02
identities. They wear their kippah. They wear Orthodox Jewish clothing. It includes Holocaust
7:07
survivors like the 88-year-old Stephen Kaposh. I interviewed Rabbi Herschel Gluck last week
7:12
who received an OBE for his work on intercommunal relations. He's the chair of the Shomrin
7:18
which protects Jewish civilian communities in northeast London. He said to me that so many Jews attend these protests
7:25
that he thinks it's a higher proportion of any minority, any community in this country, including Muslims
7:32
Jewish people are the co-organisers of the protests. It includes the National Secretary of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign
7:39
Every single protest has Jewish speakers. But what is very clear here is Natasha believes that any scrutiny, any opposition to Israel's crimes is unacceptable, is essentially an attack on Jewish people
7:52
And she wants to shut that opposition down. And I'm afraid to say that's not going to happen
7:57
As long as the Israeli state exterminates Palestinians, commits war crimes, cooks children alive in their tents with their missiles, starves people, we are going to keep on marching
8:09
and it is turning the world on its head to say that opposing murdering people, that opposing
8:15
killing Palestinians is hatred and extremism. And if we're going to talk about just finally
8:20
what inflammatory you can support openly Israel wiping Gaza from the face of the earth and we having no debate or discussion about how that extreme or dangerous or hateful But if you march opposing civilians being murdered alongside your Jewish fellow citizens that makes you a hateful dangerous extremist
8:42
The world's turned on its head and people don't buy it. Natasha, you've heard the charge there, which is that you are simply trying to shut down scrutiny of Israel and what it's done in Gaza and is doing in Gaza
8:52
What is your response? Well, he's certainly not familiar with my work and my commentary on this, and certainly perhaps as unfamiliar with the facts and the reality on the ground
9:01
What we've heard in these series of projections and ill-informed ones is the rhetoric of a Hamas propaganda machine
9:10
This is an internationally prescribed terrorist organization that is putting out fake numbers, fake casualty statistics in seeking to capture the minds of unsuspecting people like Owen Jones
9:20
and plainly they've been extremely successful, but it doesn't take away from the reality
9:25
And these genocide, so-called genocide scholars that have been quoted, it's a shame that many of them, or in fact all of them that were listed
9:31
don't seem to appear prepared to debate these issues in public. It is public discourse
9:37
It is opportunities like this. Well, certainly not with me and colleagues who have put out strong country exterminations
9:45
Well, I'd be happy to go up against any of them. Good. Well, look, I'm sorry. I didn't interrupt. In fact, I was faded down. So let me continue, please. What we have heard is that manifestation of the blood libel, 100,000 killed by whom
10:01
We've heard this consistent attempt to blame Israel for all of these ills, when in fact the reality of the situation is that it is Hamas and those other internationally prescribed terrorist organizations, let's not forget the IRGC, is now being supported on the streets of London in similar hate marches
10:18
It is these organizations that these misguided individuals are marching to protect and defend who are responsible for the humanitarian crisis, for the killing that Owen and others so pretend to lament
10:31
And it's the pretense here that is most damaging. That is what is having this misinformation spreading effect
10:41
If we are to engage with the reality that starvation was just thrown out
10:45
we have put out report after report assessing the levels of aid
10:49
that were facilitated in the Gaza Strip and proving each and every one of these tropes wrong
10:54
OK, Natasha, I think it's better. Natasha, let's Owen respond to what you've said
10:58
OK, OK. I mean, look, you made a completely outrageous claim that I'm part of the Hamas propaganda machine
11:03
There's absolutely no basis of evidence for that. And if we're going to say that anyone who says
11:08
that huge numbers of people have been murdered, exterminated, killed, whatever you want to say, by the Israeli state
11:14
The Economist backed Israel's assault on Gaza. They did their own detailed estimate of the number of people killed in Gaza
11:22
And their upper limit, and these are out of date, this was last a year ago now
11:26
was 110,000 people. If we are to believe, my esteemed guest, The Economist magazine is now part of the Hamas propaganda machine
11:35
As regards the, well, do you know what? I rest my case on that
11:40
And I've explained on multiple occasions. No, no, no, Natasha, you objected to me interrupting you
11:45
All I would say is, Natasha, please go ahead. Carry on arguing that the likes of The Economist are part of the Hamas propaganda machine
11:53
because all you are doing is discrediting your argument. And I would just add, by the way, you said, you mentioned, for example, about these academics
12:01
like Omar Bartov, the Dean's Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies at one of the most prestigious universities on the face of the earth
12:09
He dedicates his life, every single day of his life, studying genocide
12:15
He is one of the most preeminent scholars of the Holocaust. He knows this subject in a way you, a spokesperson for a pro-Israel lobbying organisation, does not
12:26
No, it's not a lobbying organisation. You can say, by the way, I disagree with him. I don't think they're right
12:34
But you are going to have to stretch everyone credulity to say that Israeli scholars of genocide who dedicate their lives to studying genocide are talking total arid nonsense You must have to accept that there must be some legitimacy in that argument The truth is Natasha Israel has committed a live stream genocide
12:52
It has butchered vast numbers of people in front of the whole world
12:57
And that's why in America, for example, two thirds of Jewish Americans think Israel's committed war crimes
13:03
Forty percent think it's committed genocide. Half of all Jewish Americans under 35 believe it's committed genocide
13:09
you would have to then say they're part of the Hamas propaganda machine
13:13
It doesn't work. Let me just put that to you. I mean, it is true. I mean, the polling that Owen Jones has quoted there, we see that
13:21
Is it your contention that, you know, vast swathes of the Western population
13:25
they are all too victims of the Hamas propaganda machine? Well, I don't know how reflective these polls are of the reality
13:32
and I think there are multiple reasons we need to treat them with care
13:35
But yes, this is the central of the point that I am making, which is that this propaganda from internationally prescribed terrorist organizations that, you know, Owen Jones has given another glorious rendition of rabbiting off, is what has been adopted by a great deal of the mainstream media, not to speak, of course, of the social media accounts that are spreading these harmful tropes and untruths about the only Jewish state
14:00
The reality is, and there is information out there, which I have published, including with colleagues at UK Lawyers for Israel and many others who are engaged in this subject that prove all of this wrong
14:11
The problem with proving a negative, of course, is that those that are putting out these falsehoods can't be bothered to engage with it
14:16
And it is the oldest trick in the book to say, look at this Jew who is criticizing Israel when those criticisms are not
14:23
It's true, isn't it, Sasha, that being anti what the Israeli government is doing is not the same as anti-Semitism
14:28
Well, this is the critical distinction. I have not heard these individuals raising aspects of Israeli government policy that they disagree with. I have heard them putting out falsehoods and saying that is the reason that they object to Israel. That is when anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are ultimately the same thing. It is the modern acceptable form. But it's not criticism of Israel to say that you object to things that the Israeli government has done when it hasn't done them
14:54
I think what we all need to be doing right now is demarcating Jewish people and the actions of the Israeli state
15:01
That is what anti-Semites want us to do. They want us to conflate Israel's crimes with the Jewish people
15:07
And it's also what people lobbying and supporting the state of Israel want us to do
15:11
Now, as regards, by the way, the figures, the Lancet, the most prestigious medical journal on the face of the earth
15:17
They estimated that by January 2025, well over a year ago, 83,000 people have been killed
15:23
They said that was a very conservative estimate and that obviously excludes all the deaths in the year and nearly a half since
15:30
We can listen to the figures of UK lawyers for Israel or we can listen to Israeli genocide scholars and the preeminent medical journal on Earth
15:40
And we can say, well, actually, we have a democratic right in this country, which our ancestors fought for at great cost
15:45
Very briefly. And we should be able to protest the murder of Palestinians
15:49
Sure. Is it not fair enough to say that one of the things that we are often told, especially by the left, is that with regards to racism, perception matters. It is to some extent in the eye of the beholder how people feel. And you cannot deny that at least elements of these marches are making many of our fellow citizens, British Jews, feeling extremely uncomfortable, indeed scared. Briefly, could you answer that point
16:10
There's no doubt at all that there's massive fear at the moment amongst Jewish people
16:14
not least because of the rise in violent attacks. What I would say is I would hope they would listen to Jewish protesters
16:20
who join these protests, who help organize these protests, who speak at every single protest
16:25
They stand in the best tradition of Jewish people who have always been overrepresented in struggles for liberation and for equality
16:33
which has often driven anti-Semitism, I would say. So all I would say is please speak to Jewish protesters, speak to the likes of NAMOD, who organized Jewish people in this country to oppose Israel's genocide and listen to Israeli scholars of genocide as well
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