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Israel’s National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir has sparked outrage after posting footage taunting activists detained while travelling on a Gaza-bound flotilla. Ben-Gvir has been condemned by the international community including Britain and has even prompted a rare rebuke from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. In one clip, Ben-Gvir is seen waving an Israeli flag shouting “welcome to Israel! We are in charge here”, in a room of dozens of activists forced to kneel on the floor with their hands tied. James O'Brien is joined by Clare Azzougarh, the daughter of Malcolm Ducker, a 72 year-old-British RAF veteran who's been caught up in the Ben-Gvir flotilla controversy. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #lbc #jamesobrien #israel #middleeast #bengvir #news #politics #middleeastcrisis #middleeastconflict LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Sometimes I think I see something and I think that can't be quite real
0:04
That can't be quite real. There's, no, something must be, that can't
0:10
And that's where I was yesterday, as I watched footage of the far-right Israeli security minister
0:16
filming himself while abusing activists who had been kidnapped, I think, under international law would be the correct word to use
0:28
but I stand corrected if I've got that wrong, in international waters
0:32
hundreds of miles from the Israeli coast, as they made their way towards Gaza
0:36
in the hope of delivering aid. And the footage was so gross
0:43
and the image of the detainees so hideous, it would look like Guantanamo Bay
0:48
They were bent double on the floor with their hands tied behind their backs. And quite possibly one of them
0:53
was a 72-year-old British RAF veteran called Malcolm Ducker. We don't know for sure, of course, because they're not exactly bending over backwards to help the families of detainees or to reassure the families of detainees
1:07
But he was on the flotilla and as far as his family know, he is in that room that Itamar Ben-Gavir treated like a sort of pantomime stage as he marched around boasting and making hideous statements
1:23
Malcolm's daughter, Claire, Claire Azugar, is with me now. And I begin, I suppose, Claire, by asking you whether
1:32
as you watched those hideous, almost unbelievable scenes unfolding, you caught any glimpses of your dad
1:41
Hi, James. Well, at first I felt physically sick, and I actually had to go and talk to a friend first to counsel myself
1:48
so I could actually, like, face them. I knew he was there
1:52
And actually, I later watched it back and a friend's mother pointed out her son, who is a good friend of mine, Yasin Benjeloun
1:59
He's part of the Moroccan delegation. We saw him bent over double and then not far from him, I saw my father's spine
2:04
I would recognise his spine anywhere. So I know he's there. And I noticed that his hands were not behind his back because he can't get his hands behind his back
2:12
So instead they were tied around his neck. You mean because of his age
2:18
Yeah, yeah, he's 72. So I just know he's not that flexible. so they I noticed they were around his neck and I noticed that he wasn't as far bent down as the
2:26
others because he just physically can't be I'm so sorry yeah it's pretty horrific and last time
2:31
James when he because he was there in October um and Israeli soldier shouted at him and he refused
2:37
to obey because he said that not how you talk to people you have to use politeness and then the guy kicked him in the back of his legs and forced him down onto the ground And that what happened last time What drives him to undertake these journeys
2:51
First of all, he's a sailor and he wants to be useful and he wants to help and he wants to try and create a better world for his grandchildren
2:58
for all the children of the world. He can't stand seeing the annihilation of the Palestinian people
3:03
their continued suffering and starvation. and he felt that flotilla was a best way of trying to reach them but also to get
3:09
media attention to get the world's attention onto their plight which I have to say has worked
3:15
because now everyone's talking about it. Yeah and I mean it makes the current scenario
3:20
quite confusing really because for once there's been absolutely undiluted condemnation of
3:27
Benghavir albeit that Netanyahu has joined in but not actually sanctioned or sacked the man in any
3:32
meaningful way. But you've got the US ambassador condemning it. You've got Italy's prime minister
3:38
the Spanish foreign minister, less surprisingly, all using incredibly strong language. And Yvette
3:44
Cooper, the foreign secretary, stating that she is truly appalled at the video posted by Israeli
3:50
cabinet minister Ben Gavir taunting those involved in the global summit flotilla. Have you heard
3:56
anything from the foreign office? No, they seem to be just in the dark as we are. They say they've
4:02
been in contact but we can't find a single family that's had any actual contact with the foreign
4:06
minister the fcdo when we call them they just say have you heard from your family member which is
4:10
very confusing because we think don't you understand that they're prisoners and they've been abducted so how can they possibly contact us we're coming to you hoping that you will be
4:18
able to give us information i just want to say that of course are the european uh and and british
4:24
and the americans summoning their ambassadors and making these statements is the very least they
4:29
could do. We have seen these images coming out before of Palestinians being treated like this
4:34
in fact, much, much worse. We've just had the report from the New York Times about the systemic
4:40
use of sexual violence against Palestinian prisoners, including women and children. That
4:44
is in the New York Times report. It is extensively well done. By Nick Kristoff. I mean, obviously
4:49
the Israeli government has denied it. And I think they've even deployed the blood libel label to
4:54
describe it but the new york times will be um undertaking that well they will have undertaken
5:00
their own um checks and balances before publishing that that that makes the idea of waking up to
5:05
discover that your dad is in israeli detention absolutely terrifying it's horrific but it is
5:12
horrific but the thing is i do have some reassurance that because of his passport because of the
5:15
international attention that he will come home to us and what makes me sad is that we live in a world world where it takes this for people to pay attention I wish that we would all care about Palestinians just as much as we care about the British passport holders the international passport holders They all deserve our attention
5:31
Yes, because had this been undertaken by people who don't enjoy the protection of an EU passport or a British passport or an Irish passport
5:39
I think the Irish president's sister is in the same flotilla. I mean, she's there now as well
5:45
Then you're right, it wouldn't be getting anything like the levels of attention that it's currently getting
5:50
Which makes me a little bit wary about asking you the next question. But just from a place of complete puzzlement, Claire
5:56
do you have a view at all on what Ben Gavir was playing at yesterday
6:02
Because, I mean, it's a bad enough scenario if I'm reading about it
6:06
If I get you on my programme and you describe to me, or your father joins us when he is hopefully and happily home
6:12
and he tells us about what happened to him. And we respond, just before you came on
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I was exploring the difference between a story and a statistic. And without these pictures and without this man behaving in such a hideous fashion
6:26
it's closer to being a statistic than a story. And now he has made it into a..
6:31
Do you have any idea what he's playing at here? Well, he did it last time too
6:36
He did turn up and taunt them and yell at them, but not in the same escalated fashion
6:41
There wasn't the same level of violence and force that was used
6:44
I think that he's playing to a certain demographic of the Israeli audience
6:50
I think that the point, but also the point is he said, I want to give you a taste of how I treat Palestinian prisoners
6:55
That is what he said. And, you know, this is the point is that he is
7:00
he gloats all the time about how he treats Palestinian prisoners. The fact that he was the one who pushed through that apartheid law of execution
7:07
that will only apply to Palestinian prisoners. This is, he's playing to a base
7:12
I understand there are elections coming up soon, so perhaps this is but i just think it's his it's his modus operandi i think he's a thug in a suit
7:19
and i think that this is the level of politician that we're dealing with in israel unfortunately
7:23
and tragically for the palestinians and and still in post of course um do you ever try and talk your
7:28
dad out of it um no we have had discussions with the family i don't personally i don't personally
7:35
because i see what it means to him okay and i see i said to him you'll be miserable if you don't go
7:40
won't you? And he said, yeah, I'll be a pain in the ass. And I said, well, you better go then
7:45
But obviously, your heart is in your hands for the entire journey until he comes back
7:50
safely. Absolutely. I said, my mum is very measured. And she said, you know, when it come
7:54
on to take when you take on something with such gross injustice, whether it be apartheid South
7:59
Africa or you know women rights whatever it might be it not easy It costs it takes sacrifice And this is what it going to cost And it not going to end today um this is going to have to continue people are going to have to be prepared to make sacrifices and and to be clear and just for the benefit of people listening i think more than me
8:17
the the the aid itself is in some sense symbolic i i mean nobody really sets off on these flotillas
8:24
believing that they're going to get to gaza the the point is i think my yeah i think my dad did
8:29
I think he felt we've got enough boats this time. One of us will get through
8:35
But obviously the Israelis changed strategy and just did more interceptions. And even if they do get through, it would be a drop in the ocean of what is needed
8:42
because all ingress into that territory is completely controlled by Netanyahu's regime
8:48
It is as much an achievement, if not more, as you've explained to us
8:52
to shine a spotlight on, which is what makes it so odd that Ben Kavir has started dancing hideously in that spotlight
8:59
to shine a spotlight on what the Palestinian people are up against
9:03
through the lens of the treatment of the people trying to help them
9:08
Absolutely. On that front, it's been a success. And I think also on another level that the people of Gaza
9:13
know that there are people out there who haven't forgotten them, prepared to put their safety on the line
9:17
prepared to risk something to get to them to show they're not forgotten. And in fact, I'd just like to say that my 11-year-old daughter
9:23
saw a video of some children in Gaza watching the skyline, watching the ocean to see the boats coming
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And when she heard that her grandfather had been captured and when she heard that all the other boats had been captured
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she said, oh, but the children will be so disappointed. They'll be so disappointed nobody's coming
9:40
And I just thought that we need to start seeing this through the eyes of children more and more because that is where our hearts should be
9:45
that we have disappointed children and that they need us. Claire, thank you
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I'm a bit lost for words at that imagery, which is a testimony to how powerful it is
9:55
I hope we can speak again soon or possibly even speak to your dad when he's back home safe and sound
10:01
I hope so. I really do. Claire Azuga there telling us of her
10:06
And I'm going to mention that he's a British RAF veteran because it matters and it doesn't matter
10:11
I mean, it matters and it doesn't matter to me particularly, but if you are persuadable that everybody going on expeditions like this
10:21
is the sort of person that got thrown out of the hate march on Sunday
10:26
because she looked like she'd read a book, then, you know, an RAF veteran, a military hero
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undertaking actions that many people join our armed forces to do, to protect people, to help people
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And on the other side of the moral compass, you have Itamar Ben-Gavir, the Israeli security minister
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who no doubt has admirers in this country
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