Up next in 10
Israeli and Palestinian peace activists on how their 'destinies became intertwined' | LBC
9 views
Apr 4, 2025
In a powerful discussion, Ben Kentish is joined by Palestinian activist, Aziz Abu Sarah, and Israeli entrepreneur, Maoz Inon, to take calls from LBC listeners. Both guests stress the urgent need for new leadership in Israel and Palestine, arguing that entrenched political figures have failed their people. Abu Sarah condemns both Hamas and Netanyahu, rejecting the idea that conflict must continue indefinitely. He urges individuals to take action, insisting that peace is possible—but only if people refuse to accept violence as the status quo. Inon, meanwhile, calls on the UK to step up when U.S. leadership falls short. He urges Britain to turn diplomatic statements into tangible action and take part in international peace efforts, including France’s upcoming peace convention in Paris. Listen to the full show on Global Player: https://app.af.globalplayer.com/Br0x/LBCYouTubeListenLive #benkentish #Gaza #LBC #middleeast #palestine #israel LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
View Video Transcript
0:00
Now, we always try and have on this show
0:01
respect for nuanced conversations, of course, appreciating there's a lot of strong feeling
0:06
and sentiment on both sides. But it can feel, can't it? It can feel a little bit depressing at times
0:11
It can feel like however much most of us want peace, there are too many people in positions of power
0:17
who want to maintain war, and that actually the prospects of the people of Israel
0:21
and the people of Gaza living, by some means, in peace and security is not going to happen any time soon
0:28
And that's, if we're honest, how it can feel. But while there are those, for sure, that are working hard to maintain war
0:35
there are also a lot of people in Israel, in the occupied territories across the world
0:39
who are working incredibly hard, who are dedicating their lives, in some cases
0:43
to trying to bring about peace. And I am delighted and honoured to say that I'm joined by two of them in the studio right now
0:50
Maus Inon is with me, an Israeli entrepreneur whose parents, Bilha and Yaakovi Inon
0:55
were killed in the 7th of October massacre when their house was hit by a close-range missile
1:03
in that appalling Hamas attack. Mao's now campaigns for peace, as does Aziz Abu Serra, a Palestinian activist
1:11
who lost his brother Tassir during the first intifada in 1991. They're both here with me during a trip they've made to the UK
1:18
to try to promote dialogue, interaction, engagement and ultimately peace. And we'll get on to just in a moment
1:27
how they're going to do that and what they think that might look like. But they are also here, I'm delighted to say
1:31
and thank you to both of you for coming in, to take your calls, to answer your questions
1:37
to listen to your views on this. It does, as I say, feel like we are tonight
1:43
as we speak about this, a very long way from peace. And yet thanks to people like Maus and Aziz
1:49
the hope endures. So if you've got questions for them about how we go from where we are today
1:55
where Israel has once again killed reportedly dozens of people in airstrikes on Gaza
2:01
where Islamic Jihad has started firing rockets again at Israeli civilians, how we go from that to any sort of lasting peace
2:09
whether actually it's even feasible that we should be aiming for that at this point in time
2:14
Get your calls coming in on 0345 6060 973. You might have questions about the Israeli leadership
2:21
and how culpable they are on enduring violence. You might have questions about Hamas
2:26
and whether any sort of peace settlement can be instituted while they retain power in Gaza
2:32
You might have thoughts and questions about any element of this awful war, the impact it's having on people on both sides of it
2:38
and how we somehow, somehow eventually, find a way to put a stop to it
2:44
That number once more, 0345 6060 973. You can WhatsApp the same number
2:49
You can text 84850, say Alexa, send a comment to LBC. And Mals and Aziz are here to talk to you, to take your calls, to answer your questions and to talk together about their work and how we sort of build a better world, to use a cliche
3:05
Thank you both again for coming in. I'll start, if I might, by just asking you a bit more about both of your stories, how you came to be involved in peace activism and how you came to start working together
3:17
Aziz, we'll start with you, if that's OK. Sure. Hello, everyone. First, I grew up in Jerusalem. As you mentioned, my brother was
3:26
killed when I was 10 years old. He was arrested and suspicion of throwing rocks, was beaten up
3:31
in Israeli prison, which resulted to his death soon after he was released. And I was very angry
3:38
after. I was very bitter and I wanted revenge. I was 10 years old at the time. He was 19
3:43
and nothing prepares a 10-year-old to losing his brother. I still remember the moments of the soldiers breaking into our home
3:53
It was Ramadan just like now. And it's images that never leave you
4:00
So I wanted revenge and I went into politics very early. By the time I was 13, I was very active into politics
4:07
Not for peace, exactly the opposite. I didn't believe in talking to Israelis at the time
4:13
The only Israelis I knew were soldiers and settlers. And I became activist
4:19
I wrote pamphlets. I edited a youth magazine. I organized for protests
4:24
And eventually, when I was 18, I realized I never learned Hebrew because it's the language of the enemy
4:29
And without Hebrew in Jerusalem, you cannot have a normal life. And I went to study Hebrew in an ulpan, which is where Jewish immigrants go to learn Hebrew
4:37
And that was my first real introduction to Israelis who are not soldiers and settlers
4:42
And I met my teacher who treated me for the first time, I think, an Israeli treating me like a human being
4:49
Welcomed me in Arabic words, tried to show my culture, my identity, my political even views
4:56
And that's how I started my journey into peace work. Ended up working with multiple organizations, ended up working peace work even outside Israel and Palestine
5:05
and eventually until I met Maoz last year and a half ago
5:11
And your views on Israelis before that moment, before you went to study his Hebrew
5:17
how would you characterize your impression of Israel and Israelis at that point
5:22
And the only Israelis I knew were the soldiers who arrested my brother, were the soldiers who stopped me on my way to my school
5:29
were the settlers who attacked our neighborhood on regular basis. A lot of fear
5:34
I didn't know any Israeli who spoke about peace. I didn know any Israeli who I mean my family didn have any Israeli friends never had Israelis into our home So there was zero it was occupation That not only Israelis I knew They were the enemy Yeah Yeah
5:53
And Malz, let's talk about you because you're an entrepreneur. You've got businesses in tourism
5:59
and other sectors as well. You've, I understand it, long been sort of involved
6:02
in interfaith work and engagement, but it was really the 7th of October where your life changed irreversibly, sadly
6:09
Yes. My parents, well, first, Ben, I'm so thrilled to be here with you tonight
6:15
I'm thrilled to have you. And hi to all the listeners. My parents were among the first victims of the Hamas attack
6:22
They lived only 200 meters from the border, from the most invested wall mankind ever built
6:30
the highest, the deepest, with the most sophisticated and vast digital equipment
6:38
And we lost touch with them, about 10 minutes. Before 8, Saturday morning, October 7, and later that day we were able to reach one of their neighbors
6:51
who told us that my parents' house is burned to ashes and that there are two bodies inside
6:57
And we started the Shiva, the Jewish way of mourning. It was the first Shiva of the war
7:03
Basically, it's like a work ceremony that goes on for seven days
7:07
and it was the second day that my young brother, again, that is based in London
7:13
in the last decade, asked the family to agree on a universal message
7:20
He wants us to share with everyone and he wants us to share
7:25
with the world that we are seeking no revenge, that we, the siblings of Bila and Jacobi
7:31
are seeking no revenge because by revenging the death of our parents
7:35
we are not going to bring them back to life. And we're just only going to escalate the cycle of bloodshed, revenge and war that is been going on between Israelis and Palestinians for a century
7:48
And that we are trapped in this ongoing war. And we need to break this trap
7:53
We need to start an alternative path, alternative path for peace and reconciliation
8:00
And basically, this is the work we've been doing ever since. I mean, it's incredibly powerful listening to you there, Miles, because I think many of us would struggle to sort of reach that level of decency and compassion
8:14
You know, if it was a terror group that killed my parents, I honestly can't say to you that I wouldn't want revenge
8:20
I wouldn't want them sort of wiped off the fate of the earth. And you somehow collectively, your whole family managed to rise beyond anger and hatred and vengeance and quite quickly turn your mind once again to peace
8:33
How did you manage that? Because we were prepared. Ben, we were prepared for October 7th, and we were prepared by our parents
8:44
My father was a farmer, and I keep saying he was the best farmer in Israel
8:49
And that's a fact. There are some narratives that we can argue or debate about, but my father was the best farmer in Israel
8:56
For 60 years, he was sowing wheat in the Israeli desert, in the Negev
9:01
and during dinners, meetings, he would share how devastating the situation in the field is
9:11
If it's from floods, drought, insects, heat wave or cold wave, the situation was always devastating
9:20
But at the same time he was sharing how catastrophic the current situation is
9:25
he will say that next year he will sow wheat again because he has the agency
9:29
to change the future, even if not to predict it. But it's up to him to learn from his mistakes
9:37
to consult with other farmers, to get the best seeds, to fertile the land
9:41
to make the land prepared for the rainwater to come, and to sow with great faith that next year will be a better year
9:50
And this is exactly what we are doing now. We are sowing three seeds
9:55
The seeds of hope, because hope is not something we can lose
9:59
It's not something we can find. It's not something someone else will bring us. Hope is an action
10:04
Hope is an action that we create together with others. And we create it by envisioning a better future
10:12
and acting in order to make it into a reality. So this is exactly why we are here in London
10:18
To envision with you and with many others, if it's in the parliament, if it's with faith leaders
10:25
if it's with students and professors, to envision a better future for both Palestinians and Israelis
10:33
and to act. It's time to act. It's not, we prayed enough, we thought enough
10:38
we crossed our finger long enough. Now it's time for action. And this is why we're here
10:44
And we'll come on to what that might look like. And I'm interested in actually how both of you maintain hope at times like this
10:50
We'll come on to that. Just briefly, how did you find each other, for want of a better phrase
10:54
How did you end up working together in the way that you are now? I'll say. J-date. No, I'm joking
11:00
That's a Jewish dating app. We met about 10 years earlier
11:10
I'm also a tourism entrepreneur. Our companies actually worked with each other
11:17
And we met for five minutes. And we apparently had no interest in continuing the conversation
11:23
because we didn't meet after. We became friends on Facebook, which is how we connected after October 7th And yeah that how we connected then I think three days after October 7th I wake up in the morning and seeing a message from Aziz
11:41
And I knew that Aziz lost his brother. But till you are losing beloved one during a war, you cannot understand how it feels like
11:52
It's a physical feeling. It's a physical pain. so when Aziz reached out to me
11:59
just three days after saying that he's standing with my family and sending his
12:07
condolences in this hard time I knew that yes I lost my parents only three days ago
12:13
but there is a potential that I want a friend that I want a partner
12:19
and now I can say I can truly say that I want
12:23
a brother and Aziz is my brother now and you feel the same way as these absolutely you're holding hands in the studio i think it
12:32
was very clear we we we did a talk right after together online and then we met a month or two
12:38
later and quickly we realized our destiny is is kind of become interwined and we might disagree
12:47
in some stuff in the past we might even disagree in stuff in the present but we knew our vision
12:53
for the future, our dream for a better future is very similar. And you have to focus on what
13:00
you agree on, and what we want for our families, for our friends, for our people. That became the
13:08
most important thing. How do you deal with people who won't accept that a two state solution is the
13:12
only way forward, which of course, includes at the moment, the leadership of both Gaza and Israel
13:18
a sort of fringe position? I think neither of us focus too much on that. And the reason is people
13:22
argue two states, one state, confederation, federation. And the people who argue that
13:28
are not the ones who are going to make that decision. So it's almost a way for us to stop
13:33
doing something and argue about, oh, a solution that neither of us going to decide. I would say
13:38
instead, focus on what are the values that solution is built on. Like you can have two state solution
13:44
and end up having a war like Russia and Ukraine. You can have a one state solution, end up having
13:50
a genocide like Rwanda. You can have a confederation have conflict as well. What's more important than
13:56
arguing about what solution it is, is what you're basing that solution on. Is it based on equality
14:02
Is it based on dignity? Is it based on equality before the law as well? Is it based on recognition
14:10
and safety and security for everyone? If it's not, it doesn't matter what solution you have
14:14
But if you're campaigning for peace, do you not need to have at least sort of some idea of what that piece looks like, even something as simple as one or two states
14:22
Yeah, I think we've been talking about that for too long. Yeah. And then keep losing our life
14:27
That's almost become a distraction. Yes. So there will be a room, a negotiation room
14:32
It's going to happen sooner than later. And in this negotiation room, they will discuss
14:38
few options and solutions that are already on the table. There is the Arab League initiative
14:43
There is a Saudi initiative. Just a few weeks ago, the Arab leaders were meeting in Cairo and issuing another initiatives
14:52
There are civil society initiatives coming from grassroots movement like Lens for All, like Geneva initiatives
14:59
But we must make sure that in this room it will be gender equality, that there will be not only generals, lawyers and politicians
15:08
which usually sit in those rooms, that's why it's not bringing any success
15:14
we must have philosophers there. We must have peacemakers there. We must have a faith leader in the room
15:21
So we care more about who's going to be in the room than the outcome that will come
15:27
Because when the right people will be in the room, the outcome will be successful
15:32
But isn't that the problem that right now, that the wrong people are in the room? You've got leadership
15:36
I know you sort of don't want to focus too much on the leadership, But it does seem to me right now, but Hamas and the Netanyahu government are both barriers to peace and that there is not going to be any sort of lasting peace or even short term peace while either of them remains in power where they are
15:51
I think there's two ways we answer that. One is while we try not to focus on them, we also try to say we need to create new leadership. We need to encourage and empower new leadership
16:05
So while we complain so much, people complain so much about Hamas and about Netanyahu, and rightfully so, we're not doing much to encourage and empower and strengthen young leadership coming out of Israel and Palestine
16:19
I can give here a list of very, very long names. I think we need to legitimize those in new leadership
16:25
We need to have them here in LBC and every media outlet. People who are listening to us should be retweeting, should be sharing their words
16:33
There are incredible, beautiful voices coming out in Israel and Palestine, and those need to become the legitimate leaders, even if they're not yet the political leaders
16:43
That's important. On the other hand, we both believe, look, I can't stand neither Hamas or Netanyahu
16:49
I think they're both awful for Israel and for Palestine. There's so much blood on both of their hands
16:55
But in the same time, I was in Rwanda recently. I saw people who committed the worst atrocities change and change and become friends even with
17:07
the people who committed these atrocities again a guy who killed somebody's family raped her
17:13
give her hiv and now they reconciled which I struggled looking at how that can happen but this is not one story in Rwanda this is so common After the genocide there they looked at what do we do with the killers
17:29
We would have to commit another genocide if we're going to kill everyone. And I talked to one of my friends there
17:35
who told me, look, everyone has the potential to be a killer
17:40
if the right conditions are there. And everyone has the potential to be a peacemaker
17:45
So while I can't stand both of these, If they're the ones who would sign tomorrow a peace agreement, I'll take it
17:52
Chris, you've got a thought or a question for Malz and Aziz? Good evening. I just can't believe this Israeli, what he's saying
18:00
He's talking about peace and two-state solution. We're talking about Hamas, which is a terrorist organization
18:07
Their only agenda is the total elimination of the state of Israel and its people
18:12
from the river to the sea, which means they want Israel. They don't want another state
18:18
In fact, you just compared it to the IRA. Now, the IRA weren't looking to eliminate the United Kingdom
18:25
They had a political agenda. All right, Chris, what's your question for Mao's
18:31
My question is, does he really believe that the two-state solution is possible
18:35
Because you don't. There is a video of Hillary Clinton. OK, because, Chris, you don't think it is possible
18:40
Allow me to continue. No, Chris, I'm sorry, I'm not, because I've got a lot of calls to get through
18:44
And respectfully, we're here to listen to Mao's and Aziz. not to you sir
18:48
it's a question you will put it's a very valid question and we'll let Maez answer it
18:53
if that's okay Chris thank you Maez so peace is possible if it's going to be a two states
18:59
one state confederation like we said before there are many great solutions
19:03
on the table peace is possible and the only way to eliminate Hamas
19:09
is by envisioning a better future and unfortunately we have no leaders at the moment
19:15
we have only politicians and our current politician, if it's Hamas and if it's the Israeli government
19:21
envision as a future that the present will continue. And we cannot agree to that
19:30
We cannot accept that our future will be as devastating as our present
19:35
So this is why the civil society, why Aziz and I are also forming a coalition
19:39
a coalition of more than 60 organizations, Israelis and Palestinians, Jewish and Arabs
19:44
grouping together because we realize that we cannot achieve our dream by our own. We must
19:51
create a partnership and a strong coalition and our coalition is gaining momentum
19:55
is getting power and Aziz that is in the peace movement as a peace activist
20:01
more years than me can say that the time Hamas, the weakest
20:06
time for Hamas was during the Oslo Accord when there was an horizon
20:12
A rising that is based on equality and dignity and security and safety
20:17
And the only way to lower Hamas, to get it out of power, to get rid of Hamas
20:24
is only by envisioning a different future and offering an alternative for destruction, for war, for fear and revenge
20:33
Hanan, hi. Oh, hi, Ben. Hi. Thank you again for a wonderful conversation
20:38
conversation thank you for you and your guests i i really appreciate it and one question from me
20:44
um how would your guests try to convince our british government to do more to help with the
20:51
peace that you're trying to achieve through your friendship and through your talk great question
20:56
a great question what can the uk government and others i guess do to promote peace okay this is
21:02
Thanks for the question. The UK can step into a leadership position
21:08
When American leadership is being failed and it's not taking us anywhere
21:13
it's time for the UK to rise. And your prime minister already announced a few times
21:20
that he's funding an international fund to support the civil society in Israel and Palestine
21:28
But he still didn't act. So we are here and we spoke to the parliament
21:33
we spoke to policymakers to make sure it's not just a statement. It's not just a dead letter
21:39
It's going to make it into an action and support the civil society within Israel and Palestine
21:43
And in coming June, the Saudi and the France are doing a peace convention in Paris
21:49
So we encourage the UK government to join those efforts and to be among the leaders that will promote
21:59
and achieve peace between Israelis and Palestinians. Just very, very briefly, I think I'll come to Andrew
22:05
Just in a sentence, gentlemen, if you would, would you like more countries to stop providing arms to both sides in this war
22:12
Absolutely. For sure. OK. Thank you, Hanan. That was a great question to finish on
22:16
Andrew's just going to wrap up our conversation. I think, Andrew, a comment more than a question, sir. Fire away
22:21
Yeah, I just want to say this is the first time in many months that I've felt hopeful about the Israel-Gaza situation
22:26
and I didn't hear the beginning of your show, but I'm just wondering if you were talking
22:33
about NVC nonviolent communication, the techniques of Marshall Rosenberg. We weren't, no
22:39
We had a fundraising evening months ago to raise money for Combatants for Peace
22:45
so I love that organisation. Amazing. Aziz is in the board of Combatants for Peace
22:51
There you go, Andrew. It was inspiring. It was incredibly powerful. I feel uplifted
22:55
I feel inspired. I can't always say that. I felt that often in the course of talking about or covering this issue in recent months. Thank you, gentlemen, for coming in. And I think what you do is just awe inspiring. And the world needs more men like both of you, to be quite honest
#Human Rights & Liberties
#news
#Politics
#War & Conflict