Up next in 10
James O'Brien reacts as Foreign Secretary Ed Miliband announces sanctions on Israeli settlements in the West Bank.
Ed Miliband accused the Israeli government of turning a "blind eye" to the "ethnic cleansing" of Palestinians by "settler terrorists".
The foreign secretary told MPs that the government's objection was "not with the people of Israel, with whom the UK has unshakeable bonds".
He said the argument was "with the conduct of its government".
Miliband went on to read out the UN's definition of ethnic cleansing, as a "a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas".
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0:00
How do you react to this news that the United Kingdom is imposing sanctions on
0:06
illegally occupied territories in the West Bank because of the actions of what our
0:14
Foreign Secretary Ed Miliband chose to describe as Israeli settler terrorists? And already the first problem appears. Well, not the first problem, the first
0:25
what word would you use the first punctuation mark in my own thinking do i mention that ed
0:30
miliband is the son of a holocaust survivor um do i mention that ed miliband is jewish
0:36
does it matter because i have spent a long time being told that it is borderline evil to to conflate
0:43
israel with judaism and therefore to bring judaism into any element of this conversation is
0:50
is wrong. I think it is awful to conflate Israel with Judaism, but the people who seem to do it the
0:56
most are people like Benjamin Netanyahu and yesterday the chief rabbi. I don't know
1:02
is a short answer to the question that's forming in my mind, should I mention it
1:05
Ed Miliband did. I think so. That is his prerogative. That is his right. I've already
1:11
heard people try to argue that because he doesn't go to synagogue every week, he's somehow not fully
1:17
Jewish, which, I mean, if you've got even a cursory understanding of the Holocaust, is a position to
1:23
adopt or a point to argue so fundamentally stupid and sick, that I frankly can't believe people can
1:30
do so and breathe at the same time. I can't believe that they're intellectually capable of
1:35
walking and talking simultaneously, to argue that because he doesn't practice, he must somehow be
1:41
detached from the horrors or not fully invested in the historic plight of Jews or the current situation in Israel
1:52
Here is Ed Miliband in the House of Commons yesterday. I'm proud of my Jewishness and unwavering in my support for the state of Israel
2:00
And there is absolutely no contradiction between this and my support for the state of Palestine
2:05
Indeed, quite the opposite. The two-state solution is based on an explicit belief
2:10
that the only route to security for both peoples is to live side by side
2:14
in peaceful coexistence with freedom, security and self-determination. It's pretty uncontroversial, right
2:20
Here is the... Well, he'll describe himself. Here's the Conservative MP Edward Lee a little later in Parliament yesterday
2:27
What is happening in the West Bank is absolutely violent and egregious
2:35
It is worse than stopping the two-state solution. it is ethnic cleansing
2:41
So will he agree that actually the Israeli government could quite easily differentiate between general trade
2:47
and trade to these illegal settlements? Would he agree that there's no reason
2:52
when our country fully supports the right of Israel to defend itself
2:57
that this should affect our intelligence relationship? So I say to him now, I am proud to say
3:03
as the longest-serving member of the Conservative Friends of Israel that I absolutely and fully support what he is doing today
3:14
Because it is about standing up for freedom, for morality and justice of all people in this world
3:22
So freedom, morality and justice are generally considered to be quite good things
3:27
Not, I'm conceived by everybody. And they are essentially principles. It reminded me of the late Robin Cook, actually
3:35
elements of that speech, albeit that they sat on very different sides of the House of Commons
3:39
because what we're seeing Ed Miliband enact in his own mind and in mine
3:43
is an ethical foreign policy. So immediately the idea that, well, it's not going to make any difference
3:48
or it's going to damage this or it might undo that becomes pointless. Symbols are really important to human beings
3:54
The idea that something is merely symbolic is ridiculous. What do you think religious festivals are
4:00
The symbolism here is up with this we shall not put any more
4:05
So, of course, the criticism that it has come too late is probably valid, but I think probably diffused by the old adage, better late than never
4:14
So I played you those two clips because Ed Miliband is a Labour foreign secretary and the son of a Holocaust survivor who found shelter in Israel
4:23
I speak of his mother, his late mother, whereas Edward Lee is the longest serving member of the Conservative Friends of Israel
4:30
And I play them to you because on the programme yesterday, the son of a rabbi described his university experiences as his first exposure to left-wing people
4:43
as if having problems with the conduct of Israel in the Middle East was a left-wing position
4:50
And we reflected on that together for a moment. and the fact that, you know, so many of the great left-wing thinkers of the 20th century
4:57
from Karl Marx to, I know he's sort of blotted his copybook somewhat subsequently
5:02
but from Karl Marx to Noam Chomsky, you know, left-wing thinkers in the United Kingdom
5:07
and beyond Ralph Miliband, actually. So, you know, you have this extraordinary, what would you describe it as
5:17
A movement in rhetoric as Israel became more aggressive and really peaking under Benjamin Netanyahu the support of the right wing became much much greater than the support of the so left wing
5:33
And I don't know that I either understand that or buy the narrative that we've all sort of subscribed to
5:43
And Edward Lee reminded me of that. I mean, unless your right-wing-ness is so ignorant and so shallow
5:48
that it just means you support power, whatever power is doing. If you're looking at oppression, then you support the oppressor
5:54
rather than the oppressed. And yeah, OK, you've got a right-wing, left-wing divide here
5:58
But Edward Lee's words, possibly for the very first time ever, really resonated with me
6:05
The two Eds, you could say. The two Eds. and that's why I think an awful lot of the ysis and response
6:14
is both deeply mistaken and quite dangerous you are going to be accused or certain people
6:22
including the chief rabbi and the board of deputies of British Jews are going to argue that this is fueling anti-Semitism
6:29
but not that for example ethnic cleansing or genocide would fuel anti-Semitism
6:36
I mean, it's becoming an accusation that is applied, whatever anybody does in the context of Israel, except stay silent or agree and applaud
6:45
If you say anything, if you say, please stop killing people, you're being anti-Semitic, or indeed you're fueling anti-Semitism by pointing it out
6:51
I get that in the inbox, you know. I can't believe you're covering this
6:56
you are encouraging Jew hate by describing what Israel is doing, by reading out death tolls, by reflecting upon atrocities
7:04
by describing ethnic cleansing, by sharing what the plurality of genocide scholars have described as genocide
7:09
what human rights organisations in Israel and beyond have been describing as genocide now for a long time
7:16
And by simply telling the truth about those things, you get accused of encouraging Jew hate
7:26
And it's a horrible thing to be accused of, but you've got to be big enough to understand whether it's true or not
7:33
And imagine any other context in which telling the truth would see people seeking to silence you
7:40
for theoretically bringing negativity down upon them. So separating Israel from Jewishness is a task that we should all be committed to
7:54
Every single one of us who's interested in peace or harmony should be absolutely dedicated to pointing out
8:00
that the actions of Benjamin Netanyahu's regime are in no way the actions of or supported by every Jew in the world
8:08
let alone every Jew in Israel or every Jew in the UK. And yet, who is it that constantly tells us
8:14
that by criticising the actions of Benjamin Netanyahu and his regime, you are encouraging Jew hate
8:22
It's Israelis. It's Benjamin Netanyahu. They're spokespeople. His spokespeople in this country
8:30
It doesn't make sense. And you get a little bit frightened sometimes
8:34
of pointing out how little sense it makes because it's such a hefty accusation to have levelled at you
8:39
And I would just glance at my inbox and see what I can find already
8:43
because, you know, how long have I been on air? 13 minutes after 10
8:48
Maybe you're going to surprise me. Maybe it's not happening. Here we go. Two hours of Jew hate from James O'Brien
8:53
That's from Darren, glancing at his history of contributions to the programme
8:58
He thinks that all benefit claimants are shirkers and that Nigel Farage is the Messiah
9:03
Who else are we going to get here? Well, actually, it's quite thin on the ground
9:08
You are encouraging anti-Semitism. There we go. That's one. I assume you're going to take your normal anti-Israel approach this morning
9:15
ignoring any valid arguments that suit your narrative. That's from Kevin, who's got the gift of clairvoyance
9:22
He can see forward. Miliband is a disgrace, he adds. And all that Ed Miliband has done is respond to a regime
9:31
that is doing nothing to stop the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in the West Bank by settler terrorists
9:38
And I still think that if he, as the son of a Holocaust survivor, hadn't said that, then I would need a slightly longer run-up
9:43
to say it out loud myself. I don't expect any sympathy for that
9:47
I'm just pointing out that it's really difficult to tell the truth sometimes
9:52
and it's been made incredibly difficult very, very deliberately. So these sanctions are ethical
9:58
These sanctions, as Edward Lee, the father of the house, just said, speak to freedom, morality and justice
10:03
The question of whether or not they achieve much or whether or not they have negative side effects is absolutely irrelevant
10:09
I don't care how many big kahunas you bring on to your programme
10:13
to explain that it's going to do this or it's going to do that in terms of economic impact, it's irrelevant
10:21
This is literally diplomacy. This is literally international relations. This is literally saying to an ally
10:28
although they haven't behaved like allies of the United Kingdom recently, and they certainly didn't when they supported General Gautieri during the Falklands War
10:36
but you are saying to an ally, we cannot tolerate this any longer. Please stop
10:40
And they respond by accusing you of lying when you telling the truth and the question that we started asking not long after the October 7th atrocities terrorist attacks was
10:53
why won't they let journalists in? Why won't they let journalists in
10:57
And we know the answer. We've known the answer for years. Because the truth is the enemy of the oppressor
11:04
You let the journalists in, then the dog sees the rabbit, the people see the truth
11:09
And they can't have that, so we don't let the journalists in. And you remember for ages you were entitled to question the casualty rates or the death toll because it was the Hamas-controlled health ministry
11:21
And then very quietly, a year or two later, the Israeli regime conceded that the death toll was accurate
11:28
It wasn't being manipulated or inflated by Hamas. The people who would message me on an almost daily basis to say, I can't believe you're repeating Hamas propaganda, went suddenly silent
11:37
Most of them have stayed silent. So I'm very grateful to Darren and Kevin for sharing with me their boneheaded ignorance and bigotry this morning
11:44
I miss it. Here is a question that everybody should reflect on
11:48
I've begun with the first, which is that if you are truly interested in peace and harmony
11:53
then you have to absolutely detach the Israeli regime from Judaism. You have to absolutely come down on anybody who claims that a criticism of Israel is an attack upon Jews
12:05
That's hideous rhetoric. Hideous rhetoric. and it is being delivered from the very top of institutions in Israel
12:13
and indeed in this country. And you do the same for anti-Semites as well
12:18
The idea that you get to attack all Jews because of what Benjamin Netanyahu has done is disgusting
12:23
It's mad, isn't it, that three things can be true at the same time. Anti-Semitism is absolutely disgusting and so is ethnic cleansing
12:31
So if the people doing the ethnic cleansing happen to be Jewish
12:35
then anti-Semitism is still disgusting and so is ethnic cleansing. It's not difficult to sustain these two positions in your mind
12:42
if you bother to think for ten minutes or if you're free from some of the historic shackles
12:48
that I have enormous sympathy for that inform your view of the world
12:53
because Israel is the place that you go to when it starts happening again. But think about this
12:58
So that's point one really is that everybody should be committed to the detachment of Judaism
13:05
from Netanyahu's hideous regime. Criticizing Netanyahu is about, I mean, the idea that it's somehow hatred of Jewish people
13:15
or encouraging anti-Semitism or encouraging Jew hate is an argument so utterly bogus
13:20
that we should probably all agree not to give any more airtime to people making it
13:24
because they're not interested in the truth and they're not interested in resolution
13:28
or harmony or communication. They're just shouting into the ether things that are not true
13:35
and the second thing is I have had I think two occasions maybe more but I've been doing this job
13:45
for a very long time and very very rarely do I find myself thinking I'm not sure I want to go on
13:53
air today I just want to sit with the horror for a while before I actually have to offer up views
13:59
and opinions on it. I know that I felt that way after the Manchester Arena terrorist attack
14:05
at the Ariana Grande concert because my children were of an age when they were going to a lot of concerts
14:10
and I couldn't separate the personal from the professional. But we got through it. You helped me through it
14:16
After the October 7th terror attacks, the feeling was similar. It was as if the carnage was so great
14:25
that I didn't know where to start the description of it. But again, we got through that, again, with your help
14:34
And there have been moments since, not that long ago, when the girls' school in Iran was blown up by Donald Trump's ludicrous military ambitions
14:44
I didn't have the same visceral reaction because I didn't see the footage
14:48
I didn't see the pictures, I didn't have the sounds in my ear
14:53
but when we followed the story of the little girl in the car
14:59
on the phone, begging for help, and we've subsequently discovered that she was killed as well
15:05
in circumstances that absolutely nobody could defend. You have those moments as well where you think
15:11
oh, why didn't I become a music DJ? Why didn't I become a sports cop
15:15
Why do I have to talk about this stuff immediately? Why can't I have 10 minutes to process it or two days to get through it
15:26
If you're not familiar with that story, by the way, Hindra Jab's death
15:30
then it's because of the... It's for the same reasons that much of the coverage in the British media today
15:36
is amplifying and disseminating the idea that an ethical foreign policy decision
15:43
to tell an ally that what they're doing is disgusting and must stop somehow encourages Jew hatred
15:49
or puts Jewish people in danger, attacking the son of a Holocaust survivor
15:54
for speaking out in favor of humanity and decency. She was five years old
15:59
She spent hours trapped in a car pleading for people to rescue her and the IDF killed her
16:05
Her aunt her uncle her cousins were already dead They tried to escape in the same car Israeli forces fired on the vehicle instantly killing six of her relatives including her 15 cousin who managed to call the emergency dispatchers
16:19
which is why the phone line was open. She spent hours, this little girl, this five-year-old girl
16:24
talking to the Palestinian Red Cross. Sorry, am I encouraging Jew hatred
16:29
Or am I critiquing a barbaric act by the Israeli regime? Or by representatives of the Israeli regime
16:39
Because if you don't know the answer to that question, you're lost. You're already lost
16:45
Am I being anti-Semitic at the moment? Because if you don't know the answer to that question
16:51
or if you think the answer is yes, then you've surrendered something really valuable
16:56
You've surrendered intellectual freedom, you've surrendered agency, and you've surrendered honesty. All for Benjamin Netanyahu
17:03
hours on the phone to the Palestinian Red Crescent Society, whispering desperate pleas for help
17:10
So they sent an ambulance, two medics, all cleared, all coordinated, and then it got hit by an Israeli tank round
17:20
That killed the paramedics instantly. The line to Hind went down, and her body was discovered the following day
17:28
after Israeli forces withdrew from the area. I'll tell you what I'm doing here
17:33
I'm encouraging fact appreciation truth acknowledgement and how when you think about the aftermath
17:46
of October the 7th and you think about how we sat here
17:51
I don't think I had sympathy for Keir Starmer when he appeared to
17:56
offer support to putative war crimes committed by Benjamin Netanyahu, the cutting off of energy and water, but I understood why he'd done it
18:04
whether he misspoke or whether the, I don't think he's a man who gets overtaken by emotion very often
18:09
or any of those things. But the horror of that day was so immense. I found myself harboring
18:19
terrible feelings towards anybody getting in touch with the program with a yes, but
18:24
Yes, it's awful, but Israel has been doing this. Yes, it's awful, but Israel has been. Yes
18:28
it's awful but um you know let's go back to 1948 or let's go back to the six-day war and i had
18:36
no patience for those people because it seemed to me that that was a moment where you just
18:41
report and reflect the pain and the horror and then the world began to turn the world began to
18:50
turn and very very quickly you began to see that benjamin netanyahu was going to use that terrorist
18:56
atrocity undertaken by Hamas. Because look, I'm going to get messages saying that you never
19:00
mention Hamas, you never mention terrorist atrocities. That is brainwashing. You're hearing
19:06
me say these words and you're sending me messages saying you never mentioned this or you never
19:09
mentioned that. It was one of the darkest days I can remember in my life. That October the 7th
19:16
terrorist atrocity, it was absolutely hideous. But what has happened since is equally hideous
19:22
in an emotional sense, in a moral sense, and if you want to measure human suffering
19:29
in units of human suffering, then what has happened since is worse
19:36
And it has been done by an ally of the United Kingdom
19:40
with whom we will continue to trade even after these sanctions are brought in
19:45
So how can anybody argue that by talking about things that have happened
19:52
you somehow encourage attacks on people who share a faith with the man who has ordered the atrocities
20:01
or the cabinet members who cheer them. I just don't really see it
20:07
I mean, if you were to think about it in a slightly different way
20:10
then if reporting the atrocities encourages anti-Semitism or attacks on Jews and calling for the atrocities to stop encourages anti-Semitism and attacks on Jews
20:23
then what are you actually allowed to do here without being accused of causing anti-Semitism or attacks on Jewish people
20:31
What are you actually allowed to say? Nothing. You're not allowed to say anything, which means you have to live with the allegation
20:44
You have to live with the accusation. and you have to live with the label. Because I'm not in the business of looking the other way
20:52
Nor are you. So, on this programme, you are allowed to say whatever you want
20:56
both within the bounds of decency, legality and libel law. And I want you to tell me your reaction straight up
21:03
to what was announced yesterday. The condemnation of ethnic cleansing by Israeli settler terrorists in the West Bank
21:09
A small but deeply significant attempt to send a message to our allies in the Knesset
21:14
that this just can't go on. This cannot continue. And by telling people to stop ethnic cleansing
21:20
or to account for a genocide, you are somehow encouraging attacks upon people in this country
21:27
I think you need to work a little bit harder to make that case
21:31
And I don't ultimately think that you'll be able to
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