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Whilst outlining his defence plans in his Labour Party Conference speech, Andy Burnham mentioned that he will be 'principled in securing a two-state solution' for Israel and Palestine.
In his interview afterwards with Nick Ferrari, he refused to declare that Israel is perpetrating a genocide in Gaza. He said he "agreed with Ed Miliband to talk about the illegal occupation and the war crimes that we believe have been committed".
Is this enough of a response from the Prime Minister?
Dr Husam Zomlot, the Palestinian Ambassador to the United Kingdom, joins Nick to give his verdict on the PM and his statements.
Mr Burnham added: "And the war crimes that we believe have been committed.
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
#Palestine #Gaza #LBC #NickFerrari #IsraelGaza #Gaza #Twostatesolution #Andyburnham
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0:00
One aspect that we have to look at broadly is defence
0:02
And for many commentators yesterday, it was surprising that there wasn't much mention of that in the Prime Minister's speech
0:07
Quite rightly, he talked about his visions of a national care system
0:11
He talked about the idea of improving the NHS. He talked about house-building programmes
0:16
But what about the defences? Well, it was mentioned, but fairly briefly, shortly
0:21
Here he is, outlining the UK's commitment to NATO. A country which invests in people's success rather than abandoning them and paying for failure
0:31
A country like that will be much more resilient to the shocks we will undoubtedly face in the rest of this century
0:38
and more able to meet its NATO obligations on defence. This leadership we are showing at home will be matched on the international stage
0:48
I will be steadfast in my support for Ukraine and stand up to threats wherever they come from
0:54
whether Russia, Iran, or anywhere. And conference, we will be principled in our leadership in securing a two-state solution
1:14
between Israel and Palestine, as Ed Miliband has shown. So it was a speech that lasted one hour and six minutes
1:25
That's all he had to say on defence. And then he got into the issue of the Middle East
1:30
So I put it to him on this defence aspect. We're days on from what could have been a terrorist incident in Fairford
1:37
although we have learnt more overnight, terrorist incident in Fairford, and precious little on national security
1:42
Prime Minister, why nothing more on defence? I did speak about defence today and I mentioned our NATO obligations
1:49
I've talked a lot about defence, Nick, since coming into this job
1:52
I've made a commitment to fully fund the defence investment plan and that will happen
1:57
I was within two weeks of taking office and was in Ukraine supporting President Zelensky
2:04
I was at the UN last week talking about issues related to defence and our national security
2:10
It has taken actually more of my time probably since I became Prime Minister
2:15
Then why didn't we hear it just now? You did hear it. Not in the same level
2:20
Well, obviously, there's only so much you can put on the table in a conference speech
2:27
There were big themes that I put on the table. I put forward, I would say, a prospectus that the British public haven't been offered in a long time
2:35
I did it with honesty. I did it with clarity. and I've set out a 10-year plan for Britain
2:40
in which I've demonstrated how we can meet our defence commitments by reforming welfare, building more council homes
2:47
so we can reduce housing benefit, taking a different approach getting young people into work
2:52
so we can reduce the amount we spend on out-of-work benefits. And that is the route then to meet our NATO commitments
2:59
You did speak about honesty. You also talked about principle and principle was a grad Israel and Palestine Your senior colleague Ed Miliband to talk about the ethnic cleansing that gone on in Gaza Has there been a genocide in Gaza Well we carefully consider these matters
3:16
and that word was not used in Ed Miliband's statement to the House of Commons
3:22
because always the approach of the British government is to take the lead from the courts
3:29
And when the courts have made a determination You've never waited for a court decision before, Prime Minister
3:34
On something as serious as that, Nick, I think that is the case
3:40
And the issue is still under consideration, isn't it, from the international..
3:45
You mentioned the London Mayor, Lord Khan. He says there has been a genocide. What would you say to Lord Khan
3:50
In my position, I think it's right that I wait and I base what I say
3:56
on those who've studied the evidence and the legal position. And it's something that I think is important, given the feeling around these issues
4:08
I did agree with Ed Miliband to talk about the illegal occupation and the war crimes that we believe have been committed
4:17
So we did call it where we have evidence and where we believe it's clear we have said that
4:24
I'm not saying that it is or isn't at this point in time
4:28
And that hasn't yet been determined. But we will take our our lead from the courts
4:32
How comfortable were you again in a related conversation? A woman of 94 and some others were arrested here on the weekend for wearing a T-shirt that said stop the genocide in Gaza
4:41
I support Palestine action. Is that terrorist activity? Well, obviously, they are currently a prescribed organization
4:49
and I have in the past considered how do we have a situation
4:57
where the most extreme elements of that organisation, who have carried out attacks at military installations
5:07
there's quite a spectrum there, isn't there, in terms of what you've just described and the other end of..
5:12
But a 94-year-old grandmother wearing a T-shirt. I understand the point that you're making
5:19
And I also, though, would say there's another end of the spectrum here
5:24
What does that mean? What I've just said, that there are parts of that organisation
5:29
that have carried out attacks at military bases, and that's a different thing
5:34
To comment on that, I'm joined in the studio by Hussam Zomlot, who's head of the Palestinian mission to the United Kingdom
5:39
effectively the Palestinian ambassador, the de facto ambassador to the UK. Thanks very much for coming in
5:45
How has the position of the United Kingdom towards the Palestinian people changed
5:49
with a change of personnel with Andy Burnham and Ed Miliband. Morning to you
5:53
Good morning, Nick. No, I am officially, formally, the Palestinian ambassador to the UK
5:58
and it is the embassy of the state of Palestine. Let's celebrate that moment
6:03
The mission was there for many years, and it was upgraded recently after the historic recognition of the state of Palestine by the UK government Yeah I just heard that conversation with the Prime Minister It was good to see you on train
6:20
Yes, I know. It's bizarre when I said I saw you last night. I hastened to have, we were on the same train
6:24
That's why, Ambassador. Yes. So, what you heard from Mr. Burnham about the position
6:31
about the position of the British government, about the idea of genocide, were you disappointed in what the Prime Minister said
6:37
Well, my view is very clear. It is genocide. Israel has committed genocide
6:41
And I'm not alone. With me, the UN Commission of Inquiry, with us, all the human rights organizations, including your own Amnesty International
6:51
With us is the International Association of Genocide Scholars. And with us is the world's highest court, the International Court of Justice, already as early as January 2024
7:02
saying that the crime of genocide is plausible by Israel in Gaza
7:07
and has placed Israel on trial. So the question is, why the conversation
7:14
This whole conversation, is it genocide or not? Why did the Prime Minister, so I ask again
7:18
Is it genocide or not? It misses the point that you have 94% of the population in Gaza right now
7:24
are in desperate need for shelters, and these shelter materials are sitting in Jordan
7:29
waiting for Israel to remove its blocking of these life-saving materials to arrive to Gaza
7:36
So the conversation is about terminology. So the conversation is Israel did not kill enough people to call it by its name
7:45
But I'm asking for your view on Mr. Burnham here, Ambassador. Yes, exactly
7:49
And I think Mr. Burnham should just say that we accept the international courts
7:57
and we accept the UN and we accept the experts on their verdict about this, period
8:04
And obviously the answer to this question, Ambassador, is ask him, but why do you imagine he won't do that
8:11
Because, you know, accepting international definition of this as a genocide would require action
8:21
And this is the whole conversation. and the convention on the prevention of genocide is very clear once you actually accept it is
8:31
genocide states have to act immediately an immediate protection of the people and the
8:37
population that are being genocided the the action taken by the foreign secretary ed milliband quite
8:43
recently imposed is further than any other british government has gone yes i imagine you welcome that
8:49
So what measures, other measures aside from sanctions, what other measures do you think the British government should be looking at
8:56
Well, what he said, but what he said needs to be implemented and it needs to be implemented immediately, comprehensively, without any hesitation
9:06
For too long, Nick, for too long, Israel has been getting the wrong message
9:11
The wrong message is they have full impunity. They are above the law
9:16
We need to make sure that every illegality is marked that the sanctioned regime would literally end all this We need to discuss how to end the occupation rather than how to begin another
9:30
process of talking. So we are expecting a full arms embargo, complete. Anything that
9:38
would help or assess the occupation is illegal, as the entire occupation is illegal. We need
9:45
to see a serious implementation of the ban on trade with settlements. We need to see serious
9:52
sanctioning of any company, any institution that finance, help, facilitate, promote these illegal
10:00
settlements. So the service part is very important. And we need to see the entire ecosystem sanctioned
10:07
meaning that the settlements are the crime, but Israel is the criminal. So we want to make sure
10:14
that the Israeli institutions, the state institutions and organizations that are supporting
10:19
these settlements are also sanctioned. You rightly point out the people who say there is genocide. I
10:24
have to put you, Mr. Ambassador, people such as the Judge Advocate General of the Armed Forces
10:29
Geoffrey Blackett, says the charge of genocide against Israel is absolute nonsense. It doesn't
10:33
accord with the law. There is a school of thought that it's not genocide, Ambassador. Well, again, for me as a Palestinian, this genocide has not been happening only for the
10:42
last three years it's been happening for 80 years genocide has been happening for 80 years when
10:48
two-thirds of my people including my parents were ethnically cleansed from their homes and by the
10:54
way gaza has 80 population of those who were ethnically cleansed from their homes in 1948
11:00
when in fact britain was in mandate of palestine so you know for a long time palestinian voices
11:07
who are not heard. We've been saying this is ethnic cleansing. This is state-sponsored terrorism
11:14
We are subjected to a relentless campaign of oppression. And today, I think it's about time
11:20
that Palestinian voices are heard. The British voices and the British people
11:24
the great British people, who have been always siding with fairness, not just for Palestine, remember
11:29
for South Africa and the anti-apartheid movement that were led by your grannies
11:35
led by your vicars. And the same thing they're doing again, that the prime minister is not hearing you when you say, why are you arresting these people
11:43
Why are you criminalizing these people? So today it's about people. It's about hearing people
11:48
So your message, I have to move on. Finally, your message to the prime minister that he wouldn't accept that there was genocide
11:54
He doesn't know whether there is or whether there isn't. He didn't really comment about 94-year-old women being arrested
11:59
Your message to him? My message is not to be worked out about definitions, is to stop the genocide, to stop the unlawful and end the unlawful occupation, to really, really push once and for all for the equal application of international law
12:13
So we celebrate the two state solution espouse and together in that state of Palestine, we will see the fruits for all people of the region
12:23
Appreciate your time this morning. Thank you very much, Ambassador Hussam Zomlup coming in to LBC
12:27
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