0:00
What's your reaction to what you heard from Andy Burnham today
0:03
Because it was clearly quite a slap against what Keir Starmer had been doing
0:07
Yes, very much so. And I think he understood that he needed to distance himself from Starmer
0:11
One of the reasons why Starmer has been so unpopular over the last two years
0:15
The British media doesn't talk about it as much, Andrew. In a lot of the political obits I saw for Starmer, Gaza didn't get mentioned even once
0:21
For example, the BBC's epic piece about how Starmer failed to connect with the public didn't mention Gaza
0:25
Gaza was a factor. Two thirds of Labour voters who ditched Labour for the Greens, according to opinion polling last month, did so citing Gaza as a major factor
0:34
We know that Keir Starmer in October 2023 went on LBC and said he has the right to block
0:39
Nick Ferrari, yes. Do you think he ever recover from that, do you think? Was that the moment
0:44
I think with a segment of the left, he never did recover. It was outrageous for a human rights lawyer who was about to become prime minister to defend Israel's blatant war crimes
0:52
A siege is appropriate, cutting off power, cutting off water. I think that Israel does have that right
0:59
It is an ongoing situation. Obviously, everything should be done within international law
1:06
but I don't want to step away from the sort of core principles
1:11
that Israel has a right to defend herself and Hamas bears responsibility for these terrorist attacks
1:17
Andy Burnham, interestingly at the time, Andrew, as mayor of Manchester, joined Sadek Khan, mayor of London
1:21
and both of them put out statements calling for a ceasefire. Very early on, people didn't notice that Burnham had done it
1:26
Sadiq Khan got a lot of attacks, maybe because he's Muslim, but he got attacked at the time
1:30
Burnham, no one really noticed that he had done the same thing. So I noticed at the time, and I thought, maybe he would have a bit of a starmer on this
1:37
Sorry to jump in. I think the two of them also very strongly condemned the original Hamas attack as well
1:42
We've all done that. And one doesn't necessarily oppose the other. You can condemn Hamas' attack on October 7th
1:49
and also say that what Israel did in response was war crimes, was genocide, is now currently ethnic cleansing
1:54
And Starmer has lately, you know, tried to take a stronger stance, as have most European governments
1:59
But it's been two and a half years of genocide. It's been you've got this Israeli ministers talking about burning down all of Lebanon, ethnically cleansing all of Gaza
2:06
And Israeli minister Andrew said the other day, we're going to take 100 percent of Gaza. Benjamin Netanyahu said we're going to keep 60 to 70 percent of Gaza
2:13
So the British Prime Minister, the next British Prime Minister, Mr Burnham, Andy Burnham, has to have a strong stance on it
2:19
And he taken a bit of time but it a good start clearly It not enough but it a good start Mehdi I haven been counting but you used the word genocide about four times just now Andy Burnham noticeably hasn used that word and has already been criticised by many people for that
2:34
In a sense, can he ever go far enough to quiet his critics or quiet Labour's critics in the Green Party and on the left generally
2:42
It's a very good question, and we shall see is the answer. I don't know the answer to that question. I know that I'm very critical of people in politics who won't say genocide when it's the consensus view almost of genocide scholars, of U.N. investigators, human rights groups, Amnesty Human Rights Watch, Israeli human rights groups
2:57
But look, at the end of the day, I'm looking for progress. You know, I am somebody who's a pragmatist
3:01
If you get a new prime minister who's better than the old prime minister, if he's willing to say he's going to put sanctions on Israeli ministers, he's willing to talk about pressure on the Israeli government
3:09
And look, I would like to see these British governments stop giving components for F-35 jets
3:14
I would like to see an end to British-Israeli military cooperation. I would like to see a British prime minister who says the word genocide
3:20
We're not going to get there anytime soon, but, you know, it's a good start. This only happened, Andrew, in the pressure
3:24
It's a move in the right direction. And the key point, Andrew, is it only happened because of pressure from the grassroots, from the Labour Party base
3:31
I'm in the U.S. Democratic Party base has pushed the party. You've seen the changes here in the U.S. with candidates running for office, much more critical of Israel than American politicians have ever been
3:40
And we need that pressure to continue for the sake of human rights for the Palestinians. As you say, Mehdi, you're in the U.S. And I want to ask you also about how you think Andy Burnham can best deal with the most unusual character in the White House
3:53
Because, you know, we all remember Keir Starmer giving him the letter from the king and being making nice and making nice
4:01
And frankly, how little he got for that in the end. So what's your advice
4:06
My advice is to stand firm. We're now seeing another ratcheting up of pressure on Iran
4:11
You could see Andy Byrne become prime minister at a time when the Iran war may restart in fury
4:15
If you look at Donald Trump's comments this week at the NATO summit in Turkey
4:19
So you need a British prime minister who's going to stand up to this president. Remember, look, there's two ways of dealing with Trump
4:24
World leaders have taken two paths. One is complete sycophant. Mark Ruter of the NATO secretary general just fawn all over Trump
4:30
Tell him what he wants to hear. Erdogan of Turkey, take him to your palace with a horse guard parade
4:35
He loves that. The other way, as you and I know, Andrew, to stand up to bullies is to stand up to bullies
4:39
Don't appease, don't give an inch, make them respect strength. Mark Carney has kind of done a middle ground approach
4:45
where he's kind of stood up where need be and then rolled over where Canada had to I think that is the right way Look appeasing Trump in the long run never works We learned that lesson over 11 years I know many people feel that at the start of Israel military action in Gaza
4:59
my party didn't get it right. And I am sorry about that. The response has too often not been good enough
5:06
We need to do better. Yes, we have taken some important steps
5:10
These include recognising the Palestinian state, placing sanctions on Israeli ministers and imposing waves of sanctions on violent settlers
5:18
and the organisations that support them. I also fully support the restrictions on arms licences
5:23
to make sure that no British bombs or bullets can be used by the IDF in Gaza or in the West Bank
5:29
Let's put some of these points to Ali Milani, who's National Chair at the Labour Muslim Network
5:33
Ali, good to see you again, Sport. I hope all is well in your world. Two questions. What was the impact of that interview nearly three years ago
5:39
and where does the direction of the relationship between the UK and Israel need to go now in your eyes? Morning to you
5:44
That interview, as you probably know and many know, was the starting point of, I think, a really, really troubling path that we went down that ultimately caused a real fracture between the Labour Party and many parts of our support
5:59
I mean, I'm the chair of the Labour Muslim Network, and it certainly caused a fracture in the relationship, a historic relationship between British Muslims and the Labour Party, but much further than that
6:09
And we've seen us lose votes to the Liberal Democrats, to the Greens and others as a result of that
6:14
principally I think it caused an enormous amount of anger and hurt and I think this is where Andy
6:20
Burnham's apology is really really important and welcome in that he addresses in his apology
6:26
that anger and hurt that has been caused within so much of our communities and it can act
6:31
I think hopefully as a reset between us and so many of our voters around the country where we
6:38
need to go next look I have particularly our relationship with Israel what would you want
6:42
to see there Ali sorry to interrupt you no problem look where I think needs to happen is we need to
6:47
have an ethical and moral foreign policy including holding Israel uh and this current Israeli
6:52
administration more specifically uh to account whether that's on their actions in Gaza and making
6:57
sure that international law is complied with and those who have broken international law
7:01
are held uh to account whether that's on settlement trade um and the expansion or the
7:07
illegal expansion of Israel and their settlements that are causing enormous problems for a two-state
7:14
solution as well as the settler violence that is increasing particularly in the West Bank which the Israeli government have done very little to address So I think there needs to be a fundamental reset in our relationship with Israel
7:26
and our ethical and moral foreign policy, which I hope that the Labour Party can enact
7:32
This apology and this intervention from Andy Burnham is a good insight into that
7:36
Has Sakhir not been robust, as robust as he should be with Netanyahu in your view, Ali
7:40
No, no, I don't think he has. I mean, some actions have been taken, for example, but I would support a much further ban on weapons being sold to Israel that we know are being used in Gaza
7:53
And in my view and in the view of many scholars and international law experts are a breach and a serious violation of international law
8:01
And I think, and you know, it's not just me, but constitutes genocide in Gaza and the international scholars for genocide have agreed on that point
8:09
And the United Nations has put out reports on this. but also, you know, we need to deal with what is an increase
8:16
like it's a radical and extremist Israeli government, including their actions and their continued expansion
8:23
and annexation of areas of the West Bank. I have to say, Nick, it's really interesting that I'm on your show
8:31
because that interview that you played with Keir Starmer, I happened to be on your show six hours after that
8:37
And I mentioned at the time that this was a likely road that we would go down
8:44
It shouldn't take someone to be an expert in international law to know that the starving of 2.2 million people, half of whom are children of water, of power, of food, power to hospitals, is inhumane and it's wrong
8:59
and I'm really sorry that my Labour leader was sat in a chair next to you
9:05
and he endorsed this activity. Collective punishment under international law is a war crime
9:12
When Kieran had given that interview, I had communication with his office and I was told that an apology was coming in the hours after
9:19
and in fact I was told that it would drop before I would be on your show
9:23
which never came and ultimately it took I think over nine days
9:27
and we never even got an apology in the end for that comment. It was rather an explanation
9:33
And so, you know, that caused enormous amounts of hurt and anger. And ultimately, even though the apology didn't come
9:39
he tried to explain what he really meant. And it got worse. And yeah, I agree
9:44
I remember discussing that with you
