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Andy Burnham has apologised for Labour’s response to the Gaza conflict, but has stopped short of a genocide claim. The likely next prime minister said the UK should be “clear in our criticism of what has happened in Gaza”. Shelagh Fogarty is joined by Lewis Goodall to discuss the impact of Burnham's statement on the direction of the Labour party and British politics. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #lewisgoodall #ukpolitics #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
If I can start, though, Lewis, with you, the way I began the programme, really, talking about that apology and sort of almost preparation for a reset when he becomes prime minister on the government's policy on Israel and Gaza
0:13
Yeah, look, I think this is significant, Sheila, because it's really the first we've heard from Andy Burnham, certainly since we were all but certainly he was going to become prime minister, of him wading into the foreign policy area of politics
0:26
and it's not something about which he's talked about a lot. He's actually received criticism from the left in the past
0:32
for not being more vocal about Gaza. It's still, even now, the left are criticising him
0:38
because he's talking about the potential of war crimes and so on. Inevitably, there'll be voices who always want you to go further and so on
0:45
But I think it is significant in the sense that this is the first we've heard from Burnham in a serious way on this subject
0:52
And I think it does reveal the direction of politics within the Labour Party on this particular issue
0:59
And I think it does say that, you know, I mean, it was on this very station with our colleague Nick Ferrari, of course
1:06
when in a way the die was cast for the left. And I think it became a real, real problem
1:12
which really sped up a bleeding on the left over this issue for Keir Starmer
1:15
When, of course, it is hard perhaps to get back into the headspace of that time
1:19
when obviously there was so much, rightly, so much shock and horror and revulsion over the pogrom which took place
1:26
on October the 7th. But even within those parameters where there was so much sympathy for what had happened
1:33
it is, nonetheless, there was a widespread feeling, I think, within the Labour Party
1:37
that when Keir Starmer says to Nick that Israel had the right to basically cut off food
1:43
and water and energy and so on as a means and weapon of war
1:48
and that that would be permissible within international law, something that Keir Starmer ought to have known
1:53
it certainly wasn't. And it was that process-led Prime Minister at play. Yes, and of course Number 10 had to row it back, but it took some time
1:59
That exacted real damage in parts of the Labour coalition. Now, in a sense, that's immaterial by comparison to the real story which was going on in Gaza
2:06
but it did have a political effect. And I think it is telling that Andy Burnham has chosen
2:12
conscious, I think, that he knows he has an ability to actually restore and ameliorate
2:17
and mend some of those broken fences with the left of politics and left-wing voters
2:22
telling I think he's chosen to take this action at this time before he even gets into Number 10
2:26
And it's a sign as well, isn't it, that once he does get into number 10, and he knows this, but he will be flooded with questions that he has to formulate answers to
2:38
And my God, does he have multiple audiences to please? Indeed so. I mean, this is a very unusual period
2:43
We've not really had anything like this in modern British politics before. I think the closest we've probably ever had to what the Americans have, where you have a sort of president-elect in a sort of transition period
2:51
two and a half months from a presidential election before January the 20th in inauguration day Obviously ours is much truncated but in our system traditionally this is very odd I mean it is an odd period Usually in our system if it becomes clear that the incumbent Prime Minister no longer
3:04
enjoys the confidence of the Commons, and somebody else does, normally we're very brutal
3:09
about it. The renewal bans arrive, and then two hours later... And I must say, I get a bit of flack for saying this, people say, you're being so mean to Keir Starmer
3:15
I'm not quite sure why Keir Starmer is still there. You know, we know that Burnham is going to be Prime Minister
3:20
he's going to be, you can either use the verb you can say that there's a coronation
3:24
you could say that he's emerged almost in the old sort of Tory style
3:28
that he used to have in the 1950s and 60s but either way, whatever verbiage you choose
3:31
he's going to be Prime Minister but Keir Starmer has elected to have this rather arbitrary timetable to say
3:36
well he'll be gone by the 20th he wants the World Cup, is this the World Cup? well okay, fair enough, but I'm not entirely sure
3:41
why we're all waiting around look, I mean, it's fine, the Labour Party has chosen that it's not a terribly long period
3:45
and Burnham clearly does want a bit of time to get his ducks in a row, fine
3:49
but it does mean that we are in this kind of liminal space between the Starmer era and the Burnham era
3:55
And what it means is that Burnham is able, for the moment at least
3:58
to get away from, exactly as you say, Sheila, the detailed questions which are coming
4:04
He's in a sort of honeymoon at the moment. And, of course, the actual sort of razor-sharp element of politics
4:09
is nonetheless going to be on the way. You spoke to Bridget Philipson for the newsagents, didn't you, at length
4:14
Yes, I'll be out today. I saw the photograph of you both in your class forum. What was it
4:19
A spiteful class warrior. That's what Kemi Bay... It was a bit of a joke. Kemi Bay called Bridget Philipson a spiteful class warrior
4:26
And Bridget Philipson, knowing my, well, my proclivity for a bit of class politics
4:31
myself decided to get a couple of T-shirts made, which I decided to wear with some
4:34
She didn't put it on. Oh, did you make... Did you get them? I didn't. She made them. No, she didn't. She didn't wear it, the cheeky education secretary, but I did
4:41
Oh, did she just put it on? She just displayed it in front of herself, whereas I, head first, literally went into it
4:46
But I did spot, when I saw the photograph on Instagram, that you wore it over your suit jacket
4:54
I did, I did. It's just instinct, yeah. Had I seen you in the street and not known who you are
5:00
I'd be thinking, oh, it's dear and dear. People do that anyway. Do they? Yeah, yeah, yeah
5:04
I never would. No, no, no, you wouldn't, because you're a nice person. Exactly. But they're very rare these days, as you know
5:09
That's true, that's true. I know quality when I see it, Lewis
5:13
I know quality when I see it. Not in that t-shirt. That's true. I thought it was really funny
5:16
But on the content of what she said, I mean, she was sticking to her guns
5:21
on the policy of that, wasn't she? Well, again, this is another weird thing, Sheila
5:27
is that she, Bridget Phillips, I mean, in a way, what you're seeing, and I'm not saying that's the only reason
5:31
she came on the show, of course, but you are seeing the current Labour cabinet is a bit of a kind of, you know
5:36
Labour's got talent feel at the moment to Labour politics, right? They are all having to kind of show
5:42
their political wares to the incoming judge, you know, to the incoming king
5:46
you know, the kind of weird Simon Cowell figure of politics at the moment. It like when the Germans were both ex It was like when the new DG did a tour of your department and everybody would be like he coming in too I got some terribly good ideas for some documentaries And he walk in and go oh really call me Mark
6:01
That's it, that is exactly it. And that is unusual. Again, there's something else unusual about this period
6:06
Because typically, when you've got a new Prime Minister coming in, either the Prime Minister comes in really quickly and appoints his cabinet straight away
6:13
so everybody knows what jobs they've got, or you've had an election where you've had a shadow cabinet
6:18
and you've got a new government coming in and more or less, the Prime Minister does obviously sometimes
6:22
make some changes from the shadow cabinet to the cabinet, Keir Starmer did, but usually more or less
6:26
particularly for the big jobs, you kind of know who the big players are going to be
6:30
and they've obviously had some time to work on their portfolio. As it stands
6:34
no one knows what any of the big jobs are going to be from the Chancellor down
6:38
Now that's Andy Pertham's prerogative, fine, but again, it introduces an element of instability
6:42
within the Labour Party and within politics and you have all of these cabinet ministers
6:46
and potential cabinet ministers all sat around nervously looking at their phones thinking
6:51
I mean, imagine... I was in the selfie. I was in the selfie. Imagine Andy Burnham's WhatsApps right now
6:55
I know you're a very popular lady, and so you are constantly being inundated with social requests
7:00
and people asking you for things. But even you, I suspect, might not have anything quite like
7:06
the kind of social intrusion that we're seeing right now from Labour MPs towards Andy Burnham
7:12
I think he's going to have to put a few on... I think he's going to have to have unread messages on. Although three Labour MPs who were in this very seat this week
7:19
described me as a legend. Well, I think that's undercutting it. There you go
7:23
I must stop stroking my ego. Listen, before you go, we will wait for that statement from Devon and Cornwall Police
7:31
about the death of Anne Whittacombe, former Conservative MP, former prisons minister
7:37
Let's talk about her political career. Clearly there was a great deal of fun in Anne Whittacombe as well
7:42
because that was exhibited. and also just a real capacity to engage with people
7:47
and communicate with people in her TV work as much as her politics. But let's reflect on her politics because she had quite the journey, didn't she
7:53
She did. I mean, look, she was one of actually the rare kind of senior women within the Conservative Party during the period
8:00
sort of late period of Margaret Thatcher and then under John Major. Easy to forget now, during the whole time, I think she was first elected in 1987
8:07
during that whole period of Margaret Thatcher's government, 11 and a half years, longest serving Prime Minister since Lord Liverpool, continuously
8:15
There was only ever one woman in her cabinet, one other woman other than herself
8:19
who was leader of the House of Lords. She liked to be, famously, this one bright electric blue suit surrounded by a sea of grey
8:27
And there were lots of women who felt, who were a bit more seniors around Widdicombe
8:30
who felt that their careers had rather been suppressed for that reason
8:34
who might have got into the cabinet. Remember, there were only about 20 to 30 MPs, women MPs, in the Conservative Parliamentary Party at that time
8:42
When John Major first became Prime Minister in 1990, there wasn't a single woman in the Cabinet
8:46
And this is the sort of era in which Anne Whittakin was making her way through And of course she did become a minister under John Major She was a prisons minister But of course what that meant was by the time she was reaching the kind of heights of ministerial office
8:58
as her career was going up, the trajectory of the Conservative Party was going down
9:02
because it was obviously leaving office after the defeat of 1997. And she became a senior shadow cabinet minister
9:09
She was shadow home secretary for a period. And she was a bulwark of the right of the Conservative Party
9:15
and became a very well-known and colourful figure. You know, she was one of those rare political figures
9:20
who really did cut through, even before she started to get into the kind of celebrity
9:24
kind of world and reality television world. Yeah, she cut through as a personality
9:28
and I don't mean that in a show-beasy way. She was a straight-talking in a way. She was one of those politicians
9:32
that if we'd had the kind of content era in which we're living now, I suspect she would have done rather well
9:36
you know, and those sorts of things and sort of being able to talk directly to the public
9:40
But, yeah, she also went on that transition. She's an unusual political figure as well
9:43
Some political figures say Ed Balls have their political career, then they become sort of going to a bit of light entertainment
9:49
and they kind of stay there. Who knows? Maybe Ed Balls is going to come back. Baron Balls, as they're perhaps going to be calling, which I suppose would make Yvette
9:55
Cooper Lady Balls. But we won't dwell on that for too long. But Anne Whittakin was an unusual figure in that she sort of oscillated between politics
10:04
and light entertainment and back to politics. I mean, I first started to actually meet her and interview her semi-regularly when I was
10:09
a political correspondent because, of course, she stood for the Brexit party as a member
10:14
MEP and she had a kind of second wind in politics, albeit briefly
10:19
as an MEP for the Brexit party. Now I have to say, she was
10:23
I mean, I saw her speak publicly and she had a sort of tub-thumping style
10:27
I think it's fair to say. She was almost a sort of old-fashioned platform
10:31
political speaker. She would almost barrack at the audience. The audience would
10:35
really, really love her. I saw her speak a few. A proper sort of platform
10:38
speaker actually in her own way. Really, she had fortitude as a political speaker
10:42
and as a political figure. more generally, and she, I have to say, you know, dealing with her
10:49
she was always unfailingly courteous, extremely polite. She had this sort of reputation as being a fierce political figure
10:56
but actually in person she was nothing but courteous and polite, which I think many people found
10:59
But of course this news, I mean these tributes have been coming in all day and obviously it was a surprise to hear of her death
11:06
but obviously she was 78, perhaps not completely surprising, but I think the news that police are investigating her death will be shocking
11:14
and certainly will be shocking across Westminster. And I think the whole of politics will be tuning in at 4.30
11:20
when we're expecting this statement from Devon and Cornwall Police. From Devon and Cornwall Police. And again, we can't second-guess it, of course
11:28
but we do know that they're expected to launch a nationwide appeal for information in connection with her death
11:35
So we'll see where that leads us. Thank you very much indeed, Lewis
11:39
Good to have you on the programme as ever. Lewis Goodall, host of the News Agents podcast. Don't miss it, that long interview
11:44
Long conversation with Bridget Phillips. You sound very boring, Sheila
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