Up next in 10
James O'Brien is joined by Malcolm Ducker, the 72 year-old-British RAF veteran who participated in the Global Sumud Flotilla to Gaza last month, which was detained in international waters by the IDF. Israel’s National Security Minister Ben Gvir sparked outrage after posting footage taunting activists detained while travelling on the Gaza-bound flotilla. The 38-second video, which Gvir posted to X, has been condemned by the international community including Britain and has even prompted a rare rebuke from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Now, both France and Italy have opened war crime and torture probes the treatment of the activists, with Israeli minister Ben-Gvir coming under scrutiny by Italian prosecutors. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #jamesobrien #israel #LBC #gazasumdflotilla #idf #palestine LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
One of the things we've done on the programme recently to prompt one of the biggest responses we've seen recently
0:06
was a conversation I had last month on the 21st of May with Claire Azugar
0:10
whose father Malcolm at the time was being held by the Israeli regime
0:15
after he set sail and became part of the global summit flotilla
0:21
We talked about it because of the footage that went viral after Itamar Bengavir
0:26
the security minister treated British and many other countries as well. But of course, our primary interest was in British captives abominably
0:56
We saw hands tied behind backs and a sort of celebration
1:19
And of course, the question that was raised was if they treat British people like this in public on camera
1:24
What the hell are they doing to Palestinian people in secret off camera
1:28
Here's a little reminder of what Claire told us about her father, Malcolm's, experiences and indeed motivation
1:36
First of all, he's a sailor and he wants to be useful and he wants to help and he wants to try and create a better world for his grandchildren, for all the children of the world
1:44
He can't stand seeing the annihilation of the Palestinian people, their continued suffering and starvation
1:49
and he felt that flotilla was a best way of trying to reach them
1:53
but also to get media attention, to get the world's attention onto their plight
1:58
which I have to say has worked because now everyone's talking about it. She's very proud of you, Malcolm
2:04
Claire? Yeah, she is. Sorry, it makes me quite emotional. Of course it does, I understand
2:09
To hear it. I understand. I always get emotional when people are kind
2:13
Yes. When they get violent, I don't get emotional, I get angry
2:19
Probably a healthy palate, I think, of responses there in the great scheme of things
2:24
Well, it's probably going to get emotional and angry in the course of the next 10 minutes
2:29
but shall we begin with the moment that the flotilla was intercepted
2:32
and the boat you were on was boarded by Israeli forces? What was that like
2:38
Yes, well, we were anticipating it because a number of boats had been boarded before
2:46
early on in the day, and it was approaching dark when we were intercepted
2:55
We saw the rib leaving the prison ship and approaching us, so we were prepared, and we had all our phones
3:09
and electronic devices and anything that could give anything away to the IDF, ready to ditch any offensive, what could be considered offensive weapons
3:24
like kitchen knives and things like that. We didn't want them to find them on board
3:32
so all of that was ditched on their way Because people have been killed in these circumstances before on sort of Indeed yes Spurious ground Yes
3:44
So you get rid of the knife so they can't claim that they were frightened that a knife might be..
3:48
Yes, exactly, exactly. And we were trained to de-escalate any situation. So basically as soon as they came alongside with their rib
4:01
I think there were probably something like 12 soldiers on board. Armed soldiers, oh yes, absolutely
4:10
And they were pointing their laser gun sights at us throughout the boarding
4:19
And I was told, as I was on the helm of the boat, to steer a certain course
4:25
and the rest of the crew were told to put their hands on their heads
4:31
and move to the front of the boat. And then the soldiers actually got on the boat
4:38
when they realised that they were safe. And then they started to damage the boat
4:48
through the remote camera over the side and the Starlink antenna was damaged and thrown over the side
5:00
And then they took... They asked the crew one at a time to come to the middle of the boat
5:09
This was in international waters where they have no jurisdiction. Oh, absolutely
5:14
This was at least 300 miles from the shores of Gaza and I estimated at the time it was about 90 miles to 100 miles
5:28
from the nearest coast, which was the Cypriot coast. So, yes, well in international waters
5:36
So it was clearly an act of piracy, there's no doubt about that. And they then, I'm just conscious of the time
5:44
I don't really want to hurry you, but then they get you onto the prison ship
5:50
Yes, basically, they get us onto the prison ship, having searched us and taken..
5:56
asked us to remove most of our clothing. Really? We're just left with one piece of clothing
6:04
You're underpants? Well, sorry, no. It would be underpants and a pair of trousers and a top
6:11
This was quite cold by then, of course. We were then taken onto the rib, taken to the prison ship
6:16
and once on the prison ship searched again. More clothing was taken off us
6:25
My particular, I had a Palestine T-shirt on, that was removed and I was allowed to have another piece of clothing
6:33
And then hands were tied and we were marched head down into the prison yard
6:44
which basically consisted of a number of shipping containers and an area of deck which was basically the prison yard
6:54
and kept there for, as it turned out for me, two and a half days
7:00
For some people it was three days before we actually got to Ashdod in northern Israel
7:07
What happened when you got there, Malcolm? so when we got to
7:12
Ashdod we were again hands were bound and we were taken to a sort of tented area and heads bowed kneeled we had to kneel down heads to the concrete floor
7:32
How did they give that order? How was that articulated? Oh, it was just that we were pulled to the area by our hands, by our tied hands, and then just said, kneel, heads down
7:49
And we stayed there for, varied in time, it was difficult to tell, but maybe half an hour to an hour
7:56
when we were pulled up again, still heads down because they didn't want us to look at anything
8:04
or it was a humiliation thing. I'm not exactly sure exactly what it was for
8:10
And then we went into the processing area where there were basically administrators
8:15
who would ask us various questions, try and get us to sign forms to say
8:21
that we had entered Israeli territory illegally which was of course a complete joke
8:29
and I'm sure we all made the point that hang on a minute, you brought us here
8:36
we didn't come here of our own volition you kidnapped us and they were always trying to get us to sign various forms
8:47
to agree but none of us signed anything as far as I'm aware Did you witness
8:55
actually I won't ask that yet I'd ask you just to continue
8:59
what went on, I know that Claire was worried about you that you'd be in pain
9:03
you were photographed I think in slightly humiliating circumstances one of the things that I have missed out
9:12
which I thought was important because it happened to me on the last flotilla
9:15
as well when they were searching you they would find you a medication
9:21
and I actually made the point I said I do need that
9:24
and they said, yeah, but you're not having this and they threw it away
9:30
and they said, but we'll get you some new stuff and I..
9:36
Well, I didn't understand that but, I mean, last time they didn't get me any
9:42
and I knew they wouldn't get me any this time either and as far as I know, they didn't
9:47
I think you asked them at one point why they were doing what they were doing to you
9:51
Well, yes, that was when I was being marched around once we'd gone to the prison
9:57
because after the processing, which was at Ashdod, we were taken to a prison in the south, Ketiot prison
10:06
and, yeah, there they started to get quite violent with us, and I was then forced to take all my clothes off
10:21
and I was photographed naked. It was pure humiliation. That's what it was all about
10:30
And one of the things, one of the most humiliating things was
10:35
they got us to kneel down and in a line and we would, the person behind you would grab your top
10:48
and the person behind him would grab his top and so on And I guess about 12 of us would then be paraded around the prison complex while we were being photographed and videoed and we were constantly being photographed i don think
11:04
there was a single moment when we weren't photographed or or videoed uh presumably this
11:12
was for ben gavir's um uh election campaigning were you there when Ben Govera arrived to do a lap of honour
11:22
no I did not I didn't witness that um I think that was probably earlier than when I got there
11:32
I mean if this is going on if this is happening to to British citizens and and French and German
11:38
and Irish citizens um it does rather make one wonder what's happening to other prisoners most
11:46
notably Palestinian prisoners, away from the public gaze in places that perhaps we'll never find out about
11:52
Absolutely. Absolutely. Actually, it served a purpose for me. It made me realise what the Palestinians were going through
12:03
I mean, what I went through was nothing compared with what they go through
12:10
and they go through it continuously. You know, they're prisoners. They've got 9,000 prisoners, Palestinian prisoners, 400 of which are children
12:20
And they are subject to all sorts of horrific violence. And I have to say, I'd like to say this about a particular member of my crew who was a New Zealander
12:36
And he was very badly treated. He was beaten, he was tasered twice
12:44
he woke up unconscious on the floor, and when I saw him much later, as we were being deported
12:54
he looked like a broken man, and he was a very, very strong man
12:59
and a very valuable member of my crew, so I was really, really upset about that
13:06
There have been accusations, allegations of sexual assault by some members of the... Yes
13:11
...as well, which... Yes, I mean, mine... You know, me being photographed naked
13:17
you could consider that some kind of sexual assault in a way
13:22
But yes, there were very serious allegations of sexual assault. Will you do it again, Malcolm
13:31
I feel I have to. Why? I would consider it... I would have to discuss it with my family, obviously
13:41
But, yeah, it's necessary. Nothing's going to change until we change the government's mind
13:52
or the government itself. It is so complicit. It's given Israel a blank check
14:02
Do what you like. and that's the way it is final question
14:10
how long were you in the RAF? eight years thank you Malcolm Ducker
14:15
as you heard part of the Global Summit flotilla which was captured, kidnapped
14:21
I don't know what word you prefer by the Israeli defence force and subjected to
14:26
some of the privations that you've just heard described we did contact the foreign office
14:30
and indeed the Israeli prison service but are yet to receive a response
14:34
Malcolm thank you so much
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