Up next in 10
Passengers on board a Dubai to Tel Aviv flight where the co-pilot reportedly tried to crash the plane after stabbing the pilot, have arrived back in Israel.
Passengers reportedly managed to overpower the attacker and stave off a suspected terror attack.
Shocking video footage from the flight shows both pilots covered in blood in the dramatic aftermath following the hero passengers' intervention.
Israel Prime Minister Netanyahu said the knife-wielding suspect has since been arrested and interrogated by Saudi authorities.
00:00 | Tom Swarbrick speaks to former CIA officer Mark Polymeropoulos
03:25 | Andrew Marr speaks to Philip Baum, aviation security expert
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0:00
A commercial pilot flying from Dubai to Israel attacked another before being overpowered by
0:05
passengers in what is likely now to have been an attempted hijacking of a plane. The Israeli
0:12
Prime Minister says the original pilot who attempted to do it has now been arrested
0:17
but the footage coming from the plane is absolutely extraordinary, with passengers getting out of
0:21
their seats to try and confront the attacker. Mark Polymeropoulos is a former CIA operations
0:27
officer who specialized in counterterrorism in the Middle East and South Asia
0:31
Thank you very much, Steve, for coming on the program. I wonder what you have made of the footage coming out, the reports of what happened on
0:37
that plane about whether or not this would constitute an act of terrorism. Well, absolutely extraordinary footage, you know, in the age of social media, I suppose
0:45
maybe we expect this, but, you know, in my career working counterterrorism, oftentimes
0:49
you didn't have such raw footage of this. It gives you kind of the power and the terror of what happened
0:54
And it certainly appears that this this Omani co-pilot and we don't know if they were if he was acting alone or not, but he tried to, in essence, take this airplane down
1:06
Now, the investigators are going to be looking very carefully at, you know, was there a motive there
1:11
What was the intention? But, you know, when you see the plane descend, you know, thousands of meters and the incredible struggle on board between the pilot and the co-pilot
1:22
And then the passengers who rushed the cockpit and a relief pilot sitting amongst the passengers who then jumped in and landed the plane
1:29
Absolutely extraordinary. You know, this is something that has happened before in the sense in in the world of terrorism and airline disasters
1:38
If you recall back in 1999 Egypt Air 990 this was an aircraft that took off from the United States And then the first officer actually drove the aircraft into the ocean There was a 2015 incident with German wings You remember
1:53
that? Suicide by pilot. So these things happen. But in the context now of these really heightened
1:59
regional tensions, you do have to look at the motive for terrorism and pretty dramatic stuff
2:04
I see that an Israeli official, because the plane was going to Tel Aviv, of course, has said that a major disaster has been narrowly avoided. This would have been Israeli 9-11
2:14
which gives you a sense of just how absolutely awful this could have been, were it not for
2:20
the bravery, it seems, of those passengers. I mean, incredible. Now, of course, in Israel
2:26
everyone does military service there. And so I think there is a heightened state of alertness
2:32
on issues like this. But right, the passengers rushing the cockpit just reminds me, of course
2:36
of, if you remember, of Flight 93. Same thing on 9-11 many years ago
2:43
But, you know, the notion of this aircraft then crashing into a crowded city, perhaps
2:50
in Tel Aviv or in Jerusalem. And then you think about what the, first of all, the loss of life that that would occur
2:56
and then the Israeli response. I mean, we're talking about a country right now, and I'm sure they're working very hard
3:02
on attribution. But, you know, if there is anyone to pinpoint this to, there's going to be a response
3:07
And we already have a regional situation which, you know, simmers every day
3:12
I think that just like everything else in my old counterterrorism world, you know, sometimes we avert disaster by good policing, good intelligence
3:20
And sometimes there's some luck involved or some heroism like we saw on behalf of these passengers
3:25
But let speak now to Philip Baum the civil aviation security expert and author of Violence in the Skies a history of Aircraft Hijacking and Bombing Philip great to have you on the show even under these circumstances
3:38
Can I ask you, first of all, a direct question, how rare it is for the problem to be one of the pilots
3:46
Incredibly rare. Aviation is and continues to be the safest form of transport available
3:52
However, there have been incidents. And certainly if we look at the post-September the 11th era, it would appear that there have been more casualties, more deaths as a result of aircraft assisted suicide, in other words, pilot suicide, than there have been due to terrorism
4:11
One has to look at incidents such as German wings, Mozambique Airlines, which gets less
4:16
coverage because it was in Africa. And then we can look at some of the incidents that haven't yet been proven to be aircraft
4:24
assisted suicide, but are felt within the industry to be likely to be such
4:29
So pilots are like pretty much anybody else, any other section of society
4:35
There may be, amongst their numbers, people who have radical views, and equally there will be people who have poor mental health
4:43
We don't know what the motivation was in this case, whether it was poor mental health, possibly an argument between pilots on the flight deck
4:51
That's happened before. Or whether it was suicidal intent, either as a lone actor or as a member of a terrorist cell
4:59
There appears to be quite a struggle and members of the passengers were involved in subduing
5:05
one of the pilots and then encouraging others to help land the plane. It's a ridiculous question
5:11
in a way I suppose But are there any protocols for when one pilot goes for another Well to try and regain control of the flight at all costs I mean you remember from 9 United Airlines flight
5:27
where it was the let's roll mentality. And that appears to be what's happened here today
5:33
There was that let's roll mentality. We're not going to allow this individual to defeat us
5:37
and we are going to survive. Amazingly, they did get into the flight deck
5:42
And I think what's worried me most, really, since September the 11th has been that enhanced flight deck door, which in the case of German wings, Ethiopian Airlines, Mozambique Airlines, has prevented the good guys getting in to neutralize the rogue pilot
5:57
But today they did. So we don't yet know how that happened, but it happened. It did. And thank goodness for all
6:03
Thank God for that. The other obvious question, I guess, is what screening there is for pilots. I assume that every airline has a slightly different system
6:12
But I assume, again, that pilots' backgrounds, you know, their social media and the rest of it's looked at in great detail before they get the job, get the gig
6:20
Well, it will depend on it from airline to airline and state to state
6:24
But there will be extensive background checks that are carried out and indeed psychological assessments
6:31
And those should be ongoing post-employment. It shouldn't stop at the day that you get a job with an airline
6:36
And the airline industry has been talking about this a lot more. Indeed, last week, I actually gave the keynote address myself at the European Association for Aviation Psychologists about the insider threat
6:48
And I'm very conscious of the fact that the insider threat is probably the greatest threat to civil aviation
6:54
And we've seen that both with minor incidents and with more significant attacks
7:01
Very worrying indeed, Philip Baum. Thanks so much for that
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