Up next in 10
A map leaked to the Sunday Times shows four Israeli military areas in the north, south, and centre of the Gaza Strip, with three civilian zones sandwiched between.
Ali Miraj and LBC callers dissect what this might mean for a two-state solution:
00:41 | Caller Nick thinks the West is hypocritical in its respective responses to Russia and Israel.
03:39 | Caller Jason is Jewish and describes the situation in Gaza as a 'nightmare'.
08:05 | Caller Martin believes the two-state solution is 'dead' and that's a good thing.
14:21 | Caller Chris doesn't think the two-state solution was 'ever' credible.
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
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0:00
A leak map shows Israeli proposals to force Gazans into strips of land
0:05
There are going to be three strips which they are going to be pushed into
0:10
And I think the overall plan, according to Bezalel Smotrich, is to try and get them out completely, get them out of, rid them from their own lands here
0:20
And the Israeli military has already started making military bases, military areas specifically designated in the Gaza Strip
0:29
I think there are going to be four of them, as far as I can see on this map here. And the Israeli army has announced that a new military offensive code named Gideon's Chariots is underway to take control of the entire strip
0:41
Listen, the attacks on Israel were disgusting. Of course. But equally as disgusting is what's going on now
0:47
And we in the West are hypocrites. We bemoan all the time about what Russia is doing to Ukraine, yet we ignore what's going on in Israel
0:55
Now, people I've seen making any decent moves lately, ironically, is the Chinese who did a massive food drop yesterday
1:03
Nick, I mean, the thing is, look, I mentioned my personal view on this at the top of my monologue, which was I'm all for the fact that Israel had a right to defend itself
1:13
Of course, it had a right to defend itself. 1,200 of its citizens were killed, for heaven's sake. They were going to retaliate and they were going to retaliate very hard
1:19
I understand that. Now this is moving into a completely different realm
1:23
Not only have 53,000 people been killed, some of them militants, I don't know the numbers, but now we're talking about land acquisition in the open in front of all of our eyes with no ifs, no buts, no secrets about it happening in the full view of the entire world
1:38
Let's just call it for what it is. Yeah, but, Andy, Israel has been doing that for years
1:43
I mean, they're on occupied territories, officially designated occupied territories. since Syria fell
1:51
They've been taking masses of land from Syria. Nothing's been said about that within the media
1:57
They're encroaching on the West Bank more and more and more. This is the West's hypocrisy
2:02
And for whatever reason, and I don't know what it is, never stood up to what the Israelis have got up to over there
2:09
And we need to start saying something because we're hypocrites. We were talking about a civil war earlier
2:14
when you were talking about the army. These are the exact kind of hypocrisy that people look at and go, I'm not going to fight for my country when they're acting like this
2:26
Well, I think it's a sobering thought and I think it's a valid one
2:30
I mean, Nick, what would you say to people who would say, as Martin did, that, look, Israel has to defend itself
2:37
These Hamas militant nutcases would have gone and killed everyone in Israel if they could
2:43
and the only way to root them out is to take over that land and to establish a presence there
2:47
And by the way, they withdrew before and it's not like they made Gaza some Riviera on the Mediterranean Sea
2:54
They did withdraw before, but like you said, it was an almost immediate blockade at the time
2:59
As far as, I keep hearing this argument about what else was Israel meant to do
3:03
I'll tell you what they should have done from the beginning, was re-secure their borders
3:08
That would effectively have made Hamas powerless bar the rockets they were firing
3:14
And then the Israelis could have taken time to put a plan together
3:18
to go after the terrorists they wanted. What it needed to do was secure their borders
3:23
We all know that what happened on that day was a massive security failure by the Israelis
3:28
Well, that was true. And I think there's a lot of egg on face
3:32
on that particular one, particularly Benjamin Netanyahu, who is meant to be the hard man of Israeli politics
3:36
Nick, thank you for your call. Jason and Bushy, good afternoon. Yeah, good afternoon
3:42
Okay, I am Jewish. Netanahu is a criminal. To say that he's a war criminal gives him far more respect than, and I don't mean that if you know what I mean. He was a criminal. He was facing corruption charges
3:54
Yes, that's true. Hamas, still on their charter, is to kill every Jew in the world. I'm Jewish. I think what he was doing bad, but they would still kill me because I happen to be Jewish
4:07
Yes, I understand. What they did on October the 17th, they expected a massive response from Israel
4:16
because they expected the Arab world to rise up and support them
4:21
And it didn't happen. And that's the big point. It was a political play
4:29
They expected everything to be, you know, they expected, because what else would you expect from someone like Netanahut
4:35
They expected that. It would reinforce their power. I can see that strategy And it didn work out You know the Saudis didn Nobody rose up to support them because they aligned themselves with Tehran You know they aligned themselves with a country that everybody else in the Middle East hates
4:53
It was a massive power play. It was a total mess up
4:58
The best thing that they could do is to do like Zelensky is currently doing with Putin
5:03
It's a turnaround and say, well, look, here's the hostages back. we're going to remove the thing about killing every Jew in the world from our charter
5:10
Now stop. And that way nobody would be able to... But Jason, I don't disagree with you about the hostages
5:18
I mean, the hostages should have been released by now. I agree with you. But then you've got Aaron Etzion, who I quoted
5:24
former deputy head of the National Security Council in Israel, saying that phase one of this peace agreement that fell apart on March the 18th
5:32
only fell apart because Netanyahu was the one who withdrew. Contrary to what's been fed in some of the media
5:37
this is from a leading former Israeli official who said it was Netanyahu who did it
5:42
I don't disagree. You have a bunch of stupid old men on both sides
5:49
trying to have their place in history at the expense of everybody else
5:56
Jason, let me ask you a question. I want to ask you a personal question. And the reason I'm asking you this is because
6:02
I went to a school down the road from you in Elstree where half the school was Jewish and basically, which means that a number of my close
6:13
friends are Jewish, very, very close friends, right? Like brothers, basically. Okay. How do
6:19
you feel as a Jew, right? Looking at what's happening here, and as I say, Israel's a democracy
6:23
there's a range of opinion and you've given yours on Netanyahu. But as a Jew who presumably cares
6:29
about the future of the Israeli state. I mean, how do you see this now
6:34
Which is plain to see that this is now, I mean, it's land acquisition, isn't it, Jason
6:38
I mean, how does that play out? No, look, I find it, there's never, it's a nightmare
6:45
You know, I mean, it is, you know, okay, one of my businesses is in the largest Muslim country
6:53
in the world. You know, 90% of my staff are Muslim. I have no, I can't
6:58
It does my head in. I can understand. Same here. You know, the problem is that you've got a bunch of really nasty
7:07
stupid old men fighting wars, and I'm 59 next week, but they're fighting wars that should have finished years ago
7:16
You know, they're both on both sides. There needs to be a reset. You know, I mean, there's a whole
7:22
if you look at what's happening in Saudi and Ammar, you know, the whole world is opening up
7:27
They are. And they also don't want to keep perpetually being dragged into this issue either, Jason
7:33
I mean, you can see, yeah, he was there. He signed loads of deals, Trump. They have got other things to do
7:38
They want to boost their economies. They want to focus on growth in tourism. They don't want to be discussing this issue either in perpetuity
7:44
I don't know where he leaves us, Jason. Well, hopefully they're all on the wrong side of history
7:51
And a younger generation will come through and realise that it's a bunch of stupid old men
7:56
fighting wars. That would be the good thing. Maybe that's the hope, Jason, if there is a Gaza left to quibble over
8:03
Jason, thank you. I appreciate your call. Martin in Exeter, good afternoon. Good afternoon. Great show
8:09
And yes, the two-state solution is dead. And good job, because this has gone on long enough
8:17
So the question that I say to people is, supposing on October the 7th
8:22
Hamas and the Palestinians, because it was both, had been successful and weren't able to be stopped by the IDF
8:31
hundreds of thousands of people would be slaughtered. They killed by hand, more or less, 1,500 in a few hours
8:41
So that's number one. What would all these people be saying if
8:47
I'll call them the Palestinians, had been successful? But that's number one
8:52
It would be a humanitarian disaster. What, like the killing of 53,000 people
8:58
53,000 people of 25,000 of which are combatants. How do you know
9:05
Because Hamas put out a while back 17,000. They did admit that
9:10
Right. So that's 30,000 plus who are not. No, but that was six months ago
9:17
OK. But you will accept, Martin, right? That in wars people die
9:21
I get that. Yes, of course. Right. OK. so 30 people at least innocent civilians in Palestine have died Continue with your plan or with your statement I think it 25
9:35
The truth is we don't know. I don't know either. Go on. We don't know
9:39
Okay. So there will be a two-state solution. So in 2005, Israel pulled out of Gaza completely
9:47
They even dug up their dead and took them with them because they knew what Hamas and the Palestinians would do
9:54
with all the remains and left them to it. And the lady before..
10:00
With a blockade. The lady before... Left them to it with a blockade, Martin
10:05
I'm coming to that. Go on. The lady before mentioned about the blockade
10:09
Gaza has two borders. They had no problem bringing rockets through Egypt
10:16
No problem whatsoever. And what did Egypt do on the first day of October the 7th, October the 8th
10:24
They reinforced their borders. OK. Martin, can I ask you? They don't want the Palestinians in there
10:30
No, no, I understood. I understood. Martin, so let me ask you this
10:34
So are you saying that you are four square behind this Gideon's chariots plan
10:40
and Bezalel Smotrich, who's saying that Palestinians should leave in great numbers to third countries
10:46
You're behind that, are you? Nearly. So let me ask you, Martin, so if someone said, if a Palestinian said
10:54
it would be really helpful if Israelis could leave in great numbers
10:58
to third countries like America or the UK or whatever, what would you say
11:04
It would be really helpful. What Israel do, Israel didn't invade Gaza on the 7th of October
11:13
it's a lot of 1,500 people. Yeah, but you see, the thing is, you're going to a conversation about land, right
11:17
So if you want to go back in history, there will be Palestinians who will say, it'd be really helpful if Israelis could just leave our land
11:25
And then we'll get into a conversation about whether this is completely anti-Zionist or whatever
11:30
But that's what they would say, right? So how can it... Well, who's land? The Jews have been there for centuries
11:34
Well, there you go, Martin. So we're getting back to the same argument, right? So there is going to be no solution here whatsoever, correct
11:42
I think and this is the issue I always feel like we have to have two conversations
11:48
we're having conversation number two which is the sensible, reasonable measured conversation
11:56
the other conversation you have to have is that killing of Jews and extermination
12:02
of the state of Israel is in the charter of Hamas I think they brushed it up a bit recently
12:07
and also in the Quran and they have said they're going to
12:12
do it again and again. Okay, so Bezalel Smotrich's charter is basically
12:18
eradicate the Gazans from where they are. So what about that charter? I wouldn't want to kill
12:24
anybody. Well, no, but you do, Martin, because what you're... No, no, no, hold on, Martin, sorry
12:30
I've listened to you respectfully. So what you're saying is, right, that what you're saying
12:34
is, from what I understand it, that you are understanding of the Israeli government's position
12:38
And I don't say all Israelis, because Israel is a democracy and there are lots of different views. Lots of people completely detest what the government's doing, including many of the hostage families
12:47
But the Israeli government's position is effectively to badger these Gazans out of their own land to permanently acquire this land, isn't it
12:56
Let's be honest. Yes, I think it's come to that. OK, so if it's come to that, Martin, how do you think the perception of Israel will be around the world
13:06
Or is this turning into the Millwall football club of international states
13:11
People are going to not like them, but they don't care. Is that what's going to happen here? I hope
13:17
I hope it will be short-term pain, long-term gain. I hope. For everybody
13:23
I hope. Short-term pain, long-term gain, like no Palestinians in their own land
13:27
But the alternative to that, and this is what people, and I think we're broadly on the same scene
13:35
People forget that if you let it slip at all, you take your eye off the ball
13:43
The Palestinians and other Muslims would slaughter every single person in Israel
13:50
And one more thing, one more thing. On 7th, they didn't discriminate
13:55
But Martin, they wouldn't. Egypt had a peace treaty with Israel since the 70s
13:58
To this day, the Abraham Accords were being worked out with the Saudis for an enlisting peace, right
14:05
So I don agree with you at all I afraid I mean you might make that argument for Hamas certainly but you can make that argument even for the Palestinian Authority So you saying that every Muslim in the region wants to see the extermination of Israel I don think that correct at all based on what I can see
14:21
What has happened to the civilian population in Gaza, we know it is absolutely, they're being crucified
14:29
It is absolutely brutal. But coming back to the idea of the two-state solution, I don't think it's ever been credible
14:38
A lot of the guys you've had on have kind of implied that when we talk about old men
14:43
But basically, you either have a full sovereign Palestinian state or you do not
14:50
And neither Israel, you know, for some reasons, nor the West, in my view, would ever accept a full sovereign Palestinian state, for example
15:01
Yeah, but would Hamas accept a Palestinian state in only the Gaza Strip or potentially the West Bank
15:08
Of course they would. This is the problem, Chris. You need partners for peace, don't you
15:12
Absolutely. And I think really a true sovereign state would mean that Palestine could make its own international alliances. They could quite reasonably, especially considering what's happened to Gaza, you know, for example, they could say, OK, we're going to allow the Russians all our mineral rights
15:31
They're going to set up a massive missile shield so we will never be attacked again
15:38
And Israel would never accept that. Probably the West would never accept it. But I feel, and also just a small point, Israel has never pulled out of Gaza
15:48
They pulled to just inside the Gaza border and generated a minimum 300 meter effective kill zone
15:58
In some areas, it's one and a half kilometers. So the Israelis have never disengaged from Gaza. But what I think is, even though it's going to cause endless additional problems, I think a one state solution is and has only been the viable solution
16:16
You see, Chris, Chris, Chris, I agree with you on the two state solution issue. Right. And I had a program about it months ago now saying, is the two state solution just a figment of our imagination? Because I've argued that it's nonsense. Right. It's not happening
16:28
The thing that's changed for me now is that this is so in your face land acquisition occurring in front of our eyes that, I mean, you know, it is what it is
16:38
You've got to call it out. I mean, it's so obvious what's happening and it's been declared and signed off by the Israeli government
16:45
It's happening in front of our face. So it's become even more stark now. The one state thing, Chris, I don't think would ever really work in the sense that, well, you could argue it could because I suppose there are 1.6 million Arabs living in Israel like second class citizens
17:00
But the idea is that I don't think the Israelis would allow it because of the birth issues, the birth rate issues, because they would feel that they would be out to demogrified, if you like, over time by a higher Palestinian birth rate than the Jewish one
17:15
I do, I do. I certainly appreciate and agree with that. But I think in the greater scheme of things, and again, I think you've heard it with some of your callers in today from both sides of the divide as such. It sounds stupid, but the average Palestinian and average Israeli are not that different to each other
17:34
And I don't mean that in some kind of woke kind of way
17:39
I mean, they have very similar values. They just want to get on with their lives
17:43
And I think the crucial thing, which again sounds stupid, is they, at some stage, the only way there's going to be peace
17:51
if there is a viable middle-class Palestinian population who see themselves as being kind of..
17:59
That's not going to happen. Empowered within whatever the state. Can I say one last bit
18:04
Go on, just go ahead. And this comes back to what some of your guys said last week
18:10
We have all been quite shocked at how well the new regime is doing in Syria
18:16
Well, I certainly expected... Early days, Chris, early days. It's early days
18:21
Apparently he's very handsome. He's very handsome, apparently. Aren't we all? Aren't we all
18:27
But, you know, if it pans out that the Alawites and the Shia and the Sunni can kind of combine, OK, in Syria, and the other point, I guess, was that when the Israelis attacked Hezbollah, which I'm not against as such, I certainly would have predicted an implosion, a religious ethnic implosion within Lebanon, and it never happened
18:54
So, you know, maybe your hope is not dead. Well, it's interesting. One state where everyone can belong
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