Up next in 10
Lewis Goodall speaks with Reform's Robert Jenrick about the party's latest controversy surrounding foreign donations, as well as the treatment of a party conference heckler.
Two senior Reform officials stepped down as the party launched an investigation into claims about funding aired during a Channel 4 News report.
An undercover investigation showed Reform's Dan Jukes suggesting a way to get around electoral law to secure a foreign donation of £500,000 for the party.
In response, the Reform MP called the Channel 4 investigation a "hoax" by "left-wing climate change pranksters".
But Lewis tells Jenrick he 'doesn't like corruption in our politics'.
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
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0:00
I caught up with Robert Jenrick, Reform UK Treasury spokesperson
0:03
of course, former Conservative MP and minister as well. We began by talking about those protests in Dover yesterday
0:09
which saw dozens of mass men blocking the port and chanting, Stop the boats
0:14
I asked for his reaction. Well, I thought it was completely unacceptable. I've always hated it when people get in the way of others
0:21
you know, make it impossible to go about your daily life, just stop oil and other protesters
0:26
And the same applies to these guys. I also don't like it when people wear balaclavas. Actually, our party's policy is to ban face coverings because it's highly intimidating
0:37
Imagine if you're, you know, anyone, frankly, Berlin family going holiday and you suddenly see these these blokes there
0:44
So it was totally wrong. Pleased that Kent police cleared it up. I mean, they need to be as robust as possible
0:50
Do I understand why people are frustrated? Obviously, I do. Our party is of, you know, we're all motivated in reform to bring this to an end
0:59
And at our party conference, we set out a potential conclusion to the whole of the small boats fiasco with Jordan Bardella
1:07
But you do not go about it in this way. Well, let's talk about your conference. Do you think you had a successful one
1:12
I do. We announced two really important things. First, which we just mentioned, was, I think, a diplomatic coup where the likely next prime minister of France
1:22
signed an agreement with Nigel Farage, whereby if both are our respective prime ministers
1:28
the Royal Marines could pick up illegal migrants at the halfway point in the English Channel
1:34
and take them back to the shores of France. If that was implemented, I have no reason to believe it wouldn't be because Jordan Bardella
1:41
was very sincere in saying so. It would bring this debacle that has bedevilled our country since 2018 to a conclusion potentially
1:52
within days. You are accepting. I think that's incredible, really. Perhaps, but I mean, you are tacitly accepting, therefore
1:57
that we do need French cooperation. I mean, I've heard enough speeches and remarks from people in your party
2:02
perhaps in your old party, in the Conservative Party, who always claim that we should just send them back to France
2:06
and we didn't really need the French to cooperate. Well, I don't think you have to have that. I don't think you have to have it
2:12
I've always believed you just have to put the Royal Navy in the channel and send them back to France
2:16
and create a big diplomatic row with France and then out of that dispute
2:22
an orderly conclusion would be born. But the good news is you don't have to have the big row
2:27
because it looks like as a result of Nigel's diplomacy and statesmanship, frankly, we've drawn this to a conclusion
2:34
They might not win those elections. So you could irritate the future French government with whom you might have to work
2:39
I think it changes the terms of trade in French politics as well
2:43
just as it would do in our country if one of the big parties... No, because I think if one of the big parties in a country
2:49
takes a position, then it's much more difficult for the other side to resolve from that
2:55
But, you know, I've known different prime ministers, you have as well
2:59
Any of our recent Conservative or Labour prime ministers would have given their back teeth
3:04
to have reached that kind of conclusion. You know, I've sat in some of those meetings
3:09
I was in a meeting where the French ambassador said, what part of non do you not understand
3:16
When we suggested something not dissimilar to this. So I think it's a huge, a huge step forward and then gives you a sense of what a reformed government would be able to do
3:25
It gives real credence to our policy. On your brief, why have you already written your resignation letter before you've taken office
3:31
What I've said is that if I am the chancellor, within 100 days, I'll call a budget
3:37
None of them mucking around that Rachel Reeves did after the general election that create a lot of uncertainty
3:41
And in that budget, I will raise the tax-free personal allowance from £12,570. It's frozen at the moment to 2031 to £15,000. That's a tax cut for 40 million people. Three million people pay no tax at all. No pensioner pays income tax on the state pension. It's the biggest rise in the personal allowance in its history
4:01
But understandably, people have very little confidence in their politicians right now because so many have made promises and broken them
4:08
So what I've said is I am so confident that I'll be able to achieve this and I will work night and day to do so, both before the election and obviously afterwards if I become chancellor, that I will resign if I do not do this
4:23
And I hope, given that I've made that pledge now in front of millions of people and in writing, the British taxpayer can believe it
4:33
And you're proposing, I think, 52 billion of proposed savings from welfare cuts
4:37
That's right. Exactly how many people would lose benefits? Well, anyone who is not a British citizen will no longer have the ability to claim non-contributory benefits
4:47
You still get your state pension if you've contributed to that. But in other respects, you wouldn't do
4:51
And then of those people who are claiming disability benefits we will work through the cohort of people particularly on mental health It not primarily about physical disabilities but for those on mental health Pip then we will seek to get the numbers back to where they were prior to the pandemic
5:10
So how many British born people do you think will lose their benefits? Let me give you a sense of how many people that is
5:15
There's 700,000 people today, more than there were prior to the pandemic, who are claiming Pip for mental health
5:22
Now, some of those people will have serious conditions. And it's not for me as a politician to say who does and doesn't get benefits. It will be for clinicians, people expert in the field to say so. But we must be able to get the benefit bill back to where it was before COVID and to reduce their number
5:40
If you look at children, for example, the number of children claiming disability or their parents doing on their behalf has doubled since 2013
5:50
Now, Covid did cast a long shadow in some respects over our young people
5:54
But I don't think our kids are two or three times sicker than they were just a decade ago
5:59
Again, we must be able to get the country back to the position it was within recent memory
6:05
If we do that, the savings are enormous. It has been a big change, 100 percent
6:10
On this party finance question, which has come to dog your party, do you agree with the statements first put out by reform when the Channel 4 film was aired that the story was a hoax
6:21
Well, it was a hoax in a sense. It was. It was some left wing climate change pranksters, hoaxters, wherever you want to describe them
6:31
Foreign funded, I understand, had been heavily criticised by an inquiry in the United States
6:36
Well, that's stretching the definition of journalism. who did this. Going undercover
6:43
I mean, journalists do that all the time. Well, look, these are people, it's not like this was an organisation without an agenda
6:50
I think that's the point here, isn't it? As I understand it, I'm not an expert on who these people are
6:54
but as I understand it, they are an organisation that's foreign-funded. It has historically been motivated
7:01
by a particular view on climate politics. And that's fair enough. But on the actual point
7:07
because I'm not here to defend what happened on that video. That's about them. Sure, you can describe them however you like
7:14
But that isn't about the conduct that that investigation elicited. The conduct was real
7:18
I'm not here to defend those two individuals. And look, you judge a party and in particular its leadership on how it responds to issues that arise
7:26
And they always arise in politics. And as soon as Nigel saw the footage, he believed, like I did, that it was very disappointing
7:34
It was inappropriate. And the two individuals who were aides, people who supported the party
7:40
were suspended, removed, gone. And that's the right thing to do. But calling it a hoax also sits awkwardly
7:46
alongside calling Dan Jukes and Mr Orr, James Orr, who, as you know, are leading or were leading members of your party
7:54
Well, they're not politicians. Nigel Farage calling them contracting. And that makes it sound like they've come around to do the painting and decorating
8:01
We're talking about Dan Jukes here, who was an aide to Mr Farage for over 10 years
8:05
and Mr Orr, who was the head of policy for your party. Why do you describe them as contractors
8:09
Well, because that, as I understand, is their status within the past
8:14
I can't employ them in their status. But look, they're people who have supported Nigel, supported the party
8:19
and obviously we're very grateful for everything that they've done for us. You know what he was trying to do
8:23
he was trying to mislead the public to suggest they were less important. No, what more do you want Nigel to do
8:28
He saw what happened, he thought it was wrong. Well, he doesn't need to mislead people about the status of the people for a start
8:33
So he doesn't need to call them a hoax. He doesn't need to call the whole thing a hoax because it wasn't a hoax
8:37
and he doesn't need to call them contractors. There's not much more he can do
8:41
He doesn't need to mislead people about the nature of the story. I don't think that's what's happening
8:45
Ultimately, Mr. General, let's go. Look at Nigel's own involvement in this. I mean, he didn't know anything about this stuff
8:50
Well, he was in one of the meetings. Well, he wasn't in a meeting. He was out alongside the oysters and the champagne
8:55
He was campaigning in Clacton. He was asked to go and meet some people who are potential donors to the party
9:01
He glad-handed them, as leaders have to do with donors. I mean, this happens in every political party
9:06
He said hello, said thank you. and walked off. Well, he was pretty distracted. He was in the middle of a by-election
9:12
He was probably shattered because he'd been out all day in the sun. Well, I don't think he was paying much attention to the whole thing
9:18
to be honest. Is it his practice to not listen very often in meetings that he's attending
9:22
when half-million-pound donations are being discussed? When you're the leader of a party
9:26
you have to go and meet potential donors. That's part of the gig
9:31
I mean, it's not necessarily the thing that people enjoy the most
9:36
about being in politics, but it's a part of our politics because, you know, our political
9:40
parties are funded by donations, large and small. You say it's part of the job
9:44
And incidentally, reform actually is the biggest base of donors of any party. But he wasn't doing the job because he wasn't listening
9:49
We have almost 300 grassroots members as you saw at our party conference He chatted to these people was pleasant he said thank you to them had a bite to eat and then walked off And it for the compliance team in political parties to get these things
10:03
right. And we have a very good compliance department, so it had these people proven to be bona fide donors and actually
10:09
wanted to make this donation. If it was impermissible, our team would have said no, as they do all the time
10:13
And I'm aware of numerous donations that did not go through. Well, the supposed father explicitly said in the meeting that Mr Farage
10:19
I'm not defending poor practice, but it's a bit mad to... You're going to claim that other parties do it as well
10:26
Well, it's a bit mad to say that reform... I thought you were supposed to be better than them. You were cleaning up politics
10:31
Actually, we're just doing what they're doing. Well, this allegation about polling, I mean..
10:35
I'm not talking about the polling. I'm talking about this half-million-pound donation. This was what Labour Together, I think, were accused of doing
10:39
Morgan McSweeney, Josh Simons, the bloke who stood down... You want to be as good as them. ...to make Andy Burnham our prime minister
10:45
He resigned from his ministerial job, of course. The Pope's father... That was for something else, wasn't he
10:49
When his organisation attacked journalists. The supposed father explicitly said to Mr Farage
10:54
this meeting he now says he wasn't really listening to them at, he said he ran an American family office
11:00
and had been unable to donate directly, but he had paid for reforms polls
11:04
Mr Farage then responded, yes, that was great, it worked. Boom. That sounds responsive, doesn't it
11:10
Not absent-minded. He said thank you, didn't he? He said great. No, no, that was after the bit where this person claimed
11:16
that he couldn't donate himself because he was American. I think he was aware there'd been a poll
11:20
He said, yes, that was great. It worked. Boom. Hang on a minute, hang on a minute. He was aware there'd been some poll
11:24
that was on the front page of a newspaper that these people who turned out to be pranksters
11:30
had funded. He was listening to that bit clearly. My point is that he was listening to that bit clearly
11:34
because if he wasn't, he wouldn't have responded so explicitly. Hang on a minute. This isn't like debating geopolitics
11:41
He said... He was just clearly responding. He was obviously listening. He said good
11:45
Yes, that was great. It worked. Yes, that was great, boom. Right, come on
11:49
Come on. But he's clearly listening to what he's saying is my point. I think you made my point for me
11:53
He was just having a chat. He was having a chat over lunch. That was his sole involvement in this
11:58
But look, the most important thing, Lewis, is they're gone. He got rid of these people
12:03
Yeah, but my point is we're trying to understand what Mr Farage is now. I mean, which, what is it
12:08
Is Mr Farage saying that he understood and was merely being polite, or now is he saying that he wasn't listening
12:14
because they can't both be true, can they? He was just being polite, having lunch with someone
12:18
before he went off on the campaign trail. I mean, being polite explains the manners, not the meaning
12:22
I mean, if someone describes... I know you want to turn this into the Spanish Inquisition, Lewis
12:27
but the bloke... It's exactly the same as the Spanish Inquisition. You're right, Mr. Jenner
12:31
The bloke was having lunch. That's exactly right. The bloke popped up, had lunch with some people
12:38
and then walked off and got on with the rest of his day. End of story
12:42
I know you wanted to whip this up into some Watergate, but it isn't
12:47
It's as simple as that. Let's remember that Nigel Farage says that he knows electoral law better than anybody else
12:51
He said that on the BBC yesterday, I think. After a man told him he was American and he couldn't donate directly
12:59
his son explained that the father would supply the money while the son appeared as the donor
13:03
and he thanked them both for saying that. No, he didn't say that. He said thank you
13:08
If he wasn't thanking them for that arrangement, what was he thanking them for
13:11
It's not a crime to be polite. He said that just after they explained the arrangement
13:15
Maybe it's not your common practice, but it's what most people do. Most people don't offer me half a million pounds
13:21
As they did, I might wonder where the money was coming from. We're going round and round in circles
13:25
But as a leader, you turn up to these things, you glad hand people, and then you expect your compliance department to make the appropriate checks
13:33
We have a very good team of people who are doing that. In fact, somebody who's come in recently to be the treasurer of the party
13:38
who I have the highest confidence in. and this donation, had it ever been made, which it was not
13:43
would not have passed our checks. I was at your conference in Birmingham and I lost count to the number of your members
13:49
who told me that this story, and some of the others, are part of an establishment attempt, including the British state
13:54
to destroy Farage and reform. Do you agree? Well, I do think there's an attempt by the two long-standing parties
14:03
Labour and the Tories, and there are many acolytes in the media, to do reform down. Yes, absolutely. Why
14:08
because we're trying to upend their cosy consensus. It's a club, isn't it
14:13
You know, you've got MPs, peers, you know, you donate to these parties
14:18
you go to the House of Lords. I mean, none of these people made Mr. Jukes and Mr. Orr say what they said
14:23
There's a lot of corruption, you know, that's going on. You've got, you know, editors of newspapers who are their mates
14:28
You've got, you know... Mr. Jukes and Mr. Orr are pretty corrupt. The editor of The Spectator is a former Conservative minister
14:33
It goes on and on and on and on. And for these people, it's their livelihoods, their connections, their social circle that's at stake
14:41
And so they want to stop reform from succeeding. More importantly, they don't want reform because reform represents change
14:48
You just said that you doing exactly the same thing as they been to What Nigel represents is a big change It sounds like change Really What A completely different energy policy Well you just said you doing the same thing as they doing So take 250 quid off everyone energy bills About how you run your party Cutting people taxes
15:00
You're as bad as they are. So, well, I'm actually trying to talk about the things that really matter to people. I mean, you could talk about..
15:05
Corruption doesn't matter. You could talk about a lunch. You think ordinary people don't care about corruption? It's deeply patronising, isn't it
15:10
No, I think you're actually being patronising, Lewis, because you seem to be more interested in whether Nigel Raj said thank you
15:16
over a glass of wine over lunch, or... Call me old-fashioned. I'm a journalist and I don't really like corruption in our politics
15:22
Look, £1,000 doesn't mean a lot to you because, you know, you live life wryly in the kind of London media
15:31
But I do care about working people. I do care about working people
15:35
That's why I'd rather spend the remaining minutes of this interview talking about how are we going to cut taxes for working people
15:42
What we've set out is a plan to save a typical worker 500 quid, a working family, a thousand pounds
15:49
Can I just say something? Stop pensioners who are living on the breadline having to pay income tax on their state pension
15:54
I do understand that hecklers are very annoying during party conference speeches. They are
15:58
It is annoying for us to journalists to cover them. Just to be clear, Lewis, you don't want to talk about the things that really matter to people
16:03
You now want to talk about a tweet or heckler. No, no, no. We talked about them at the very start of the interview, Mr. Jenner
16:08
I just wanted to just get your reaction to how some of your delegates responded to one of the hecklers, who I accept irritatingly, although exercising their democratic rights, responded during Mr Farage's speech yesterday
16:20
Just have a look at this. Heavy handed
16:36
Literally. Disproportionate. What do you expect them to do? Well, they could have just led her out rather than attacking her
16:43
Right. It probably didn't need to be clubbed with a crutch. Let me think how sympathetic I am towards that person
16:50
Not at all. She got clubbed with a crutch. Hang on a minute
16:54
You're really saying that a climate, wherever she is, a far-left activist..
16:58
It doesn't really matter who she is. She doesn't need to be treated like that. A far-left activist. Come on. A far-left activist who infiltrates a party conference
17:05
stands on a chair, screams abuse, at the leader of a party
17:09
tries to disrupt a party conference, and then she's moaning that a pensioner knocked her
17:17
on the head with a crutch. I mean, come on. Get alive
17:22
You take your chances, don't you? She's literally being surrounded by all of those
17:25
I have zero sympathy. Well, clearly so. One last question. The Labour candidate frontrunner
17:30
has been described by your Home Affairs spokesperson as being foisted on the people of Hoban
17:36
to replace the former prime minister. And then he said, this is Yusuf, of course
17:40
that do you understand what's happening? Now, Johnny Reynolds, the business secretary, was on the show earlier today
17:45
and he said that this was racism, plain and simple. Why is wrong
17:50
Why? Well, why is it racist? Well... What is his allegation? Well, she's saying she came to Britain
17:57
as a child more than 30 years ago, now leads Camden Council
18:02
When Mr Yusuf refers to our parliament, isn't it her parliament as well
18:06
I think the point that Zia is making, and it's one that I agree with, is that..
18:10
Well, it's her parliament too. You just answered that question. It's her parliament too. She's a British citizen. Then yes, obviously it is
18:17
She has just as much right to stand for parliament as you do. Yes, there's no rule at events people standing for parliament who aren't born in this country
18:26
But there are people, unfortunately, in the House of Commons today who, by their actions
18:33
do not appear to put the interests of our country first. They are more interested in whether a new airport is built in Meapur than whether the bin strike is being settled in Birmingham
18:43
Behind me sit a group of people who I would describe as Islamists who are fixated on Gaza
18:51
Mr Yusuf's parents were born in Sri Lanka. Should we be questioning their patriotism as well
18:55
I think you should. I think it's a legitimate question to ask when people stand for parliament who were not born in this country
19:03
Are they always going to put the interests of this country first? and in many, perhaps most cases, they will
19:08
So birthplace is a legitimate test for patriotism? I think at the moment, unfortunately, in this country
19:15
there are some people who hold a British passport and so therefore are British citizens
19:21
Mo Farah is a British Somalian. He's less patriotic than you and me. Well, let me finish my point
19:26
There are people who hold a British passport and so are British citizens but appear to hate our country
19:31
Those people exist. We see them all the time on social media. I don't know this person from Adam's
19:36
Then why is there a use of commenting about her? I'm not casting aspersions on her in particular
19:40
Who are you to question anyone's patriotism? But I think it's a legitimate... Well, I see people every day who I don't think are patriotic
19:44
Some people might not think you're very patriotic. You're constantly talking about how much you dislike this country as it is at the moment
19:48
No, I love this country. I think it's broken, but it can be fixed. And it will be under reform
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