Up next in 10
£72m from crypto billionaires is not at all like union donations | James O'Brien - The Whole Show
Sep 15, 2026
This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 14th of September, 2026.
00:00 - Reform given record-breaking £72m by two crypto billionaires - Why should we be bothered by this?
00:48:50 - Self-driving cars should be taxed to offset job losses, thinktank urges
01:36:44 - How much exercise are children doing in school?
02:02:34 - Interview with ex-White House communications director, Anthony Scaramucci
02:21:31 - Interview with photographer Chris Porsz on his new volume, 'London Calling'
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
#jamesobrien #politics #LBC
LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK.
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0:00
It is three minutes after ten and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where, as is often the case these days, a few sort of planets orbiting my thoughts this morning that speak to a similar theme
0:17
I don't know if you saw a clip of Jared Kushner, Donald Trump's son-in-law, who has somehow ended up as a negotiator, a peace negotiator, in both the Middle East and in the context of Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine
0:33
Essentially, well, repeating Vladimir Putin's terms for peace, suggesting that Ukraine should give up territory because that way the war would end
0:43
And I just sort of think it's probably worth reminding ourselves every now and then
0:48
that if Russia stops killing Ukrainians tomorrow, then the war is over
0:53
If Ukraine stops defending itself, then Ukraine ceases to exist. Its children get kidnapped by Russians
1:00
The language becomes defunct. The history becomes rewritten. If Russia packs it in tomorrow, it's all over
1:09
If Ukraine packs it in tomorrow, it's all over for Ukraine. and Ukrainians, a simple observation that seems to elude Donald Trump's representative in those
1:19
negotiations. And I mention that because it is yet more evidence that things are not what we used to
1:26
think they are, that there is no underlying system of checks and balances or consensus that protects
1:34
at the very best decency and at the very least mere democracy, that we don't actually care
1:41
as much as I always thought we did about the things that matter most
1:46
I should have known this. I mean, how can fascism ever happen unless people care more
1:51
about being given permission to attack their neighbours than they do about anything else
1:56
I mean, it just doesn't work. And yet, I'm still shocked. Every day, as I know you are as well
2:02
I'm still shocked by the evidence, the mounting evidence, not just that members of the public can be persuaded to act
2:11
and vote against their own interests, but also that members of the media and the political establishment
2:16
don't care about decency or rules or consensus or basic tenets, basic checks and balances
2:23
as much as, ah, sweet summer child that I am, I always very naively just presumed
2:30
It's why I like football as an ogy a lot of the time
2:35
partly because of footballification and the way in which we turn off our critical thinking
2:41
our objectivity, our ability to reason, because our loyalties are so complete and so all-encompassing
2:47
And everyone can be a little bit guilty of that, but it's a question of what you're prepared to forgive your own side
2:53
where footballification kicks in today. But the other thing was the rules and the referee
2:59
You know, in the world of politics, you would think that we all play by the same rules
3:03
and we all recognise the same whistle. and then of course people come along who do neither and when you think of the kind of characters in
3:14
this country who used to invoke what they called trump derangement syndrome you realize that not
3:19
only do they not care about the most powerful players observing the most well-established rules
3:26
that not only do they um not particularly care if very very powerful people decide to ride roughshod
3:34
over the checks and balances and the network of obligations that bind us all
3:39
they actually love it. They actually love it. I mean, this is the bit I still find hardest to get my head around
3:50
The fact that they love it. You see a man, and leaving aside his long history of hideous conduct
3:59
particularly with women, You see a man who is contemptuous of decency
4:05
and dedicated to greed. And you see cheerleaders who will never see a piece of the action
4:13
The amount of money that Trump has made from cryptocurrency compared to the amount of money that his marks have lost
4:19
is breathtaking. It's well into the billions. He launches his own. And yet people here, people who are paid to write newspaper columns
4:30
people who hold senior positions in major political parties. What's the word
4:35
We've stopped caring. We've stopped caring. We never cared. Did these people never care
4:42
Just imagine. By the way, I'm changing one element of the programme. I'm abandoning my long-held conviction
4:47
that doing sort of whatabouts or whataboutery is a bad thing. Okay
4:53
Because I think some mornings it's really helpful to reflect upon what would be happening in the British media now
4:58
if the Labour Party had accepted £72 million from two crypto-billionaires having announced pretty much the only legislative bill
5:09
the only bill that Labour had put together in opposition, was a bill designed to massively enrich cryptocurrency billionaires
5:16
Just pause. Let's all do this. OK, so Labour are in opposition
5:21
Let's have a bit of fun. Kemi Bader-Noch is Prime Minister. Labour have gone through one of those periods
5:26
that they sometimes go through where everything needs to be reviewed and revised
5:30
like post-Michael Foote or post-Jeremy Corbyn. And they're very slowly piecing together a new platform
5:37
which will hopefully form the basis of a political resurrection. And it was reported yesterday that two billionaires based overseas
5:46
one of whom has been pardoned by Donald Trump, he's back again, for an offence in which he failed to adequately guard against
5:56
wait for it, money laundering. They have that, and the other one is based in Thailand
6:02
He's already given 22 million quid, but I think he's a little bit worried about his
6:06
investment, so he's doubled down and given another 36 million. And the only legislation that has been
6:12
framed by the Labour Party in opposition is legislation designed to make
6:16
men like that infinitely richer than they are already. Just imagine what would be
6:24
on the front page of the Daily Mail today, or the Daily Telegraph or what your favourite right-wing radio
6:28
hosts would be, banging drums about and setting off fireworks or your
6:32
television station, what's it, GBBs what do you think their do they do news bulletins on there? Do they actually do
6:38
the news? But anyway, let's say that they do and you have actual news bulletins
6:42
what do you think the country would look like today? What do you think
6:46
the media would look like today? What do you think public discourse, political
6:50
discourse would look like today if Andy Burnham, leader of the opposition, or Keir Starmer, leader of the opposition, or Jeremy Corbyn, leader of the
6:58
opposition, had accepted £72 million from people set to get infinitely richer, from very, very rich
7:08
people who have not lived in Britain recently, but who will get much, much, much richer than they are
7:16
already in the event of Labour getting into power and doing the things they've already said they are
7:22
going to do What do you think public discourse would look like today Yeah exactly You got one columnist well at least one columnist I haven read all of them
7:37
Oh, and let's get the fig leaf out of the way as well. Labour accepts donations from trade unions
7:41
So this is what they will throw at you in the hope that you won't actually bother stopping to think about things for yourself
7:47
So members of trade unions pay subs to their trade union in order to have their jobs and their welfare protected in the public space
7:54
It's why we've got things like the five-day week. It's why we've got things like parental leave
7:58
It's why we've got things like paid holidays. It's why we've got health and safety legislation
8:02
It's why you can't send children up chimneys in your factory anymore or have people working on production lines
8:07
where they are likely to lose an arm and a leg. That's what trade unions do
8:13
So you pay your subs. Look recently at the oil industry. The members of the trade union that want more oil fields to be open
8:20
something that actually goes against an awful lot of Labour thinking and a lot of policy making
8:25
but the trade union represents its members who work in the oil industry
8:29
So they call for more oil fields to be open. They are a workers' cooperative, effectively
8:35
a collective dedicated to promoting the interests and protecting the jobs of their members
8:41
So if anybody, and my God, they will, you're going to have to trust me on this
8:45
tries to conflate the two or pretend that trade union donations to the Labour Party
8:50
are in any way akin to or comparable to billionaires giving millions to Nigel Farage in the hope of
8:57
well, in the hope of, because of course they deny that they're expecting anything in return
9:03
which means they are asking you to believe that it's a complete coincidence Farage has dedicated
9:08
himself to making cryptocurrency billionaires even richer than they are already. It's a complete
9:14
coincidence. So, I don't know how this came about. I suspect they're getting a little bit spooked
9:21
by the negative attention surrounding the attempts to raise money in secret from allegedly
9:27
inappropriate and possibly even illegal sources. So, how do you, if you've got £22 million on the
9:33
hook already, because you've backed this party to the tune of £22 million, you're going to be very
9:38
very worried when it looks like they might not end up in power at all, right? Not because you're
9:42
expecting anything in return. God, perish the thought. But simply because you look at
9:46
Nigel Farage and you see a fine, upstanding, patriotic man with a long history of telling the truth
9:52
and being completely honest and never doing anything dangerous or sinister or negative or deceitful
9:58
You look at Nigel Farage and you see a messiah figure. That's why you want him to be Prime Minister
10:04
It's got nothing to do with the fact that he's going to introduce policies that are going to make you infinitely
10:08
richer than you are already. and you've put 22 million pounds on that and it's looking a little bit shaky because he keeps getting
10:15
caught guzzling oysters with potentially illegal donors he keeps getting caught failing to properly
10:22
hide the fact that you've given him five million pounds secretly just to spend on chips it's all
10:28
looking a little bit shaky it's getting a little bit dodgy the fans have started beating up women
10:31
at conference and the senior members of the party have come out to say well what's wrong with that Boo-hoo
10:37
It's all just beginning to look a little bit shaky. What are you going to do? Here's another £36 million
10:41
Not because I'm expecting anything in return, but because, well, just dot, dot, dot
10:49
It's a complete coincidence that they've already announced, already formulated policies that would make these two men
10:56
infinitely richer, considerably, considerably richer than Yao, considerably richer than they are already
11:05
So it stinks. I mean, objectively, it stinks. Oh, what about the trade unions
11:12
I mean, it's up there with, you know, Keir Starmer's spectacles. That, by the way, is what's changed my mind about doing these comparisons
11:19
doing the thing where I say to you, imagine if it was the other lot doing this thing
11:25
Look at the furore that surrounded Keir Starmer's spectacles. And now these same people will ask you to sort of look the other way
11:33
sit on your hands or not care. about two donations of £36 million apiece
11:40
from two cryptocurrency billionaires who are so rich they won't even notice the money has gone
11:45
but in their own minds they are not rich enough. And I think the question I'm going to ask you today..
11:56
I think the question I'm going to ask you today is... Are we going to be better than this or not
12:05
Because that's why I mentioned Trump at the outset. And the obvious self-interest and self-enrichment
12:12
not just of him, but of the people around him, the way that the tech bros, the tech billionaires
12:16
not only bent the knee, but also rode back on all the things that they'd done
12:20
we thought, perhaps in good faith, when it came to things like decency in policy
12:26
And God forbid that sounds naive now. Is there a big enough difference
12:32
between the United Kingdom and the United States? Or do you fear that we're going to sell our democracy down the river too
12:42
That we're going to sell our government to the highest bidders? 0345 6060 973
12:48
Do you think that we are better than this? That the United Kingdom can somehow insulate itself
12:56
against these movements in ways that the United States failed to do
13:02
That's the question. I'd also like to know if this actually does give you pause
13:08
If you sit there thinking, I like this lot. They're really anti-establishment
13:11
They're going to stick up for the little guy. They've just taken £72 million from foreign-based cryptocurrency billionaires
13:18
who are going to get much richer as a consequence of their policies
13:23
And I'm going to help. Is anyone smelling a rat yet? Are you feeling a little bit fooled or even foolish
13:32
do you sit there laughing at the pictures of him with a pint pot on his head and then sort of now
13:38
you're beginning to wonder whether or not he really has your interests at heart with his fans
13:44
beating up women and his mates wooing money and his coffers now absolutely stuffed to the gills
13:51
with money that's come from people who are richer than you could ever imagine being but who are still
13:56
not in their own minds rich enough? Does that, does it begin
14:00
ever? Does it shake ever? That conviction that this bloke is interested
14:04
in your welfare? I don't know. I don't know. 03456060973 is the number you need
14:12
And of course, you now have to work really hard to pretend
14:16
that this isn't dodgy, or that this isn't suspect, or that this isn't un-British
14:22
or at odds with our fine traditions in this country and that means you'll have to attack me so i look forward to those
14:28
messages coming in but it'd be nice if you would ring in explain why you're absolutely certain
14:32
that nothing says man of the people more than taking 72 million pounds from foreign-based
14:38
billionaires set to become even richer than they are already as a consequence of the policies that
14:43
you want to see you think you want to see you have been persuaded that you want to see enacted
14:49
I mean I can't even imagine what that's like but then you spent 10 years kidding yourself that Brexit was a good idea so it probably going to be quite easy to also kid yourself that Farage has got your interests at heart when he not even pretending anymore that his ambitions extend no further
15:08
than being a puppet for cryptocurrency billionaires. That's it. That's the deal
15:14
That's the platform. That's the manifesto. Whether it's written in those terms or not
15:19
So, do you think that we are better? than this. 0345 6060973
15:29
Give me your considered reaction to these donations. Also, it's an additional
15:36
question. You read this. It's the United Kingdom. Mega rich people who live overseas. One of whom
15:42
has got a very troubling record in matters financial. They are buying a political
15:50
party. How does that make you feel? That's all. How does it make you feel that they are buying a political party
15:57
0345 6060 973 is the number that you need. It's 19 minutes after 10
16:02
Don't forget the Bob. The Bob will be interesting today. The Burnham Optimism Barometer
16:06
Should we do that now? Get that out of the way or should we do it a little bit later? Let's do it a little bit later
16:10
I want you to focus in first on these two questions. Number one, how do you respond to the news
16:17
that Nigel Farage's political party has just been bought by two cryptocurrency billionaires
16:22
off the shelf, 03456060. Tell me why it doesn't bother you, actually
16:27
I would love to hear, I would really love to hear that. But if it does bother you, tell me whether or not you
16:34
because I don't know anymore. You know, I look at people in the Conservative Party
16:38
and the right-wing media still blowing smoke up Donald Trump's backside. And I think maybe we're not better than this
16:45
It's one of the only countries that has never fallen to fascism, this country. Maybe that was more luck than judgment
16:51
how significant is so tell me why you're not bothered by it
16:56
or tell people who profess not to be bothered by it why they should be
16:59
and then the key question is the one I wish I could answer
17:03
I wish I could shout at you now I wish I could find dredge up some sort of patriotic passion
17:09
and explain why I believe that Britain is better Britain is better than this
17:15
Britain will not allow its democracy to be packaged up and sold off
17:20
to foreign-based cryptocurrency billionaires set to get even richer as a consequence of the only real bill
17:30
that these people have so far bothered to draft. But you can read it
17:34
It's archived online if you have a little look. But they deleted it from their own website
17:38
That's how straight up and transparent and honest they are. They deleted it from their own website
17:43
Last time, the party's relationship with cryptocurrency seemed to be failing the sniff test
17:50
0345 6060 973 is the number you need. James O'Brien on LBC
17:58
It is 23 minutes after 10, and it is, I mean, the big political story of the weekend
18:05
with possibilities that the government may try to retrospectively prevent these donations from being delivered
18:13
not least because of the rules that will govern residency, where you actually live
18:18
If you're living in Thailand, why do you want a different government in Britain? If you're living in Thailand
18:23
why do you want Nigel Farage to be Prime Minister? To the tune so far of 50..
18:28
36 plus 22, 58 million pounds. Tell me why it doesn't matter
18:34
Tell me why we shouldn't be bothered. Or indeed, tell me why you are confident
18:38
that we can resist the sale of our democracy. Sean's in Coventry
18:43
Sean, what do you reckon? Look, for people like me, it matters massively
18:50
And I was just saying to your colleague that the problem is those that follow
18:56
reform, Farage, Tommy Robinson, all of these sort of guys, right, it's a religion to them
19:02
So they could do no wrong, right? I mean, that's 72 million
19:06
as far as some of these reform voters are concerned. That's bread and fish, right
19:10
That's a miracle that he's having to raise that money to go
19:14
up against the establishment, right? He managed to do that. How can you be going up against the establishment
19:19
while taking millions and millions of pounds from establishment figures? Well, this is the point
19:26
And, I mean, James, you and I have spoke before, right? And I've told you my dad, born in India
19:30
I think he's starting to shift slightly. Yes. But he's a big Farage fan, and I'm like..
19:37
But he's not a cultist, is he? I mean, surely there are things that can happen that would make your dad go
19:41
oh, hang on a minute, I'm not sure I do want that. This is really the big question now in British politics, isn't it
19:46
is whether or not these people are Trumpish and therefore they can shoot someone on Fifth Avenue
19:51
and not lose a single vote, or whether or not there are enough people
19:54
who are what we could call reform curious who actually care about things
20:00
And that's been my dad's it. I mean, the thing that started to turn him
20:04
a little bit from the likes of Trump and Farage and all that sort of stuff was the Epstein files
20:08
He was like, I don't understand how they're still trying to cover this up and why they're not bringing anything of this out
20:12
He's washed that away, hasn't he? He's got, I mean, there's nothing happening there. I mean, when Peter Mandelson was in there, it nearly brought down a government
20:19
But for Trump, it's caused absolutely no problems whatsoever. Another example of it being helpful comparing sometimes how different people in different parties are treated
20:30
But this is the point, though. It becomes a religion, right? These people become messiahs to their followers
20:36
And those that are super cultish about it will always be able to spin the rhetoric
20:43
to the fact that these evil doings, these corrupt actions, are necessary for the greater good
20:51
And the greater good is, we're going to be really mean to immigrants. Well, yeah, in a nutshell
20:57
What else is there? You know, the fact that your dad is falling for it
21:01
makes it even more tragic. Oh, it's awful. I say to him all the time
21:05
you realise that you're probably going to be one of the first ones on the boat back, right? And he's like, well, do you know what
21:10
Good, for the sake of the country, that's fine. Oh, no, that's absolutely heartbreaking
21:15
Well, yeah, so I just... The problem we've got is that... And I think we've moved away from, like, left and right now, right
21:23
And I think we should now start thinking of ourselves as, are we pro-imperialism and anti-imperialism
21:28
Because there are parts of right-wing politics that are sensible, right? And there are parts of left-wing politics that are totally not sensible
21:38
So there's a middle ground here somewhere. but I mean for someone like me
21:42
like I said I'm on a big fat left here I will do anything that I think
21:46
is helping the most vulnerable in our society but when you're pointing the finger at okay
21:50
you get rid of these group of people your life will be becoming infinitely better
21:54
we've seen it happen before and it doesn't work that way stories today about the fall in foreign students
21:59
threatening the very existence of British universities but of course that's not going to have anybody
22:04
putting on masks and marching on the streets I suppose the question I should be asking
22:08
is whether or not you think, and I appreciate what we're going to call the cultists
22:14
but will this put people off? Will people sit there and go, hang on a minute
22:19
why do they want him to be Prime Minister? This sort of Hong Kong and Thailand billionaire Do you think it would put people off No do you know what I think those would a brush in the carpet I mean I see a lot of this stuff on social media and there a guy I can remember what his name is now
22:36
but he wears, like, this Union Jack suit, and he basically points out policies that reform have brought out
22:41
and do they agree with them? And half the time, these are terrible policies
22:45
and they're like, no, no, I wouldn't agree with that. But he ended up, when the 5 million thing came out
22:49
he was giving people a fiver. And nine times out of ten, they were coming back with
22:53
well, what do you want me to do for that? what do I need? And he was like, well, imagine having 5 million of those, right
22:58
Not expecting anything in return whatsoever. Here's 5 million quid, do with it what you please
23:04
Exactly. And even those guys, when they got asked that question, were like
23:08
well, I mean, to be fair though, he does have to do things that are going to be good for the country
23:13
and he will have to make sacrifices. And these guys don't realize that they're the sacrificial lamb. Democracy versus a form of totalitarianism, Sal suggests
23:21
which is sort of a variation on the theme that you adopted a moment ago. And I mean, this is why I opened the program by pointing out that, you know
23:29
this is one of the only countries that's never fallen to fascism. But the countries that have often did so with the full connivance of enough of the electorate
23:36
with the full support of the enough of the electorate. People will vote for this stuff because somehow they've persuaded themselves that it will improve their lives
23:45
or it will, maybe not even that, they derive their pleasure from the thought of other people's lives getting worse
23:51
But how do you sit there and think, I'll tell you what I want, what I really, really want
23:55
I want two foreign-based billionaires who are already richer than Croesus to make even more money
24:01
That's what I want and that's how I'm going to cast my vote. I'm a bit more optimistic than you
24:06
I think people will care. I think there has to come a point where people will just go
24:11
It's a bit like a love affair and you look back and you can't believe you ever went out with them
24:16
But at the time, you wouldn't hear a word against them. You were adamant that there was no coercive control going on
24:21
They just really, really loved you. He only hits me because he cares so much
24:25
Do you know what I mean? And then suddenly the spell breaks. The spell breaks
24:30
But you've hit the nail on the head in that actually what's happening here is this is a manipulative, toxic relationship
24:35
between Farage and his followers, right? He's manipulating them to such a degree that they are thankful for it
24:44
And how does that spell break when it becomes unignorable that he cares a heck of a lot more
24:50
for crypto billionaires than he does for me? Is that when people begin to go
24:55
well, hang on a minute, maybe I'm not the big love of his life after, or maybe Christopher Harbourn is
25:01
maybe Ben D'Lo is, maybe Nigel Farage is the big love of Nigel Farage's life
25:05
and I'm a mug. Does that happen? I think it would change once somebody they care about
25:10
is affected in a negative way. So somebody they care about more than they do about Farage
25:14
and I think at that point that's when the penny drops, that's when the light bulb turns on
25:18
and it's like, oh my God, actually he is this evil guy that everybody's been saying that he is and..
25:23
Well, I mean, it's your word, not mine but negative, sinister, deeply unhealthy
25:28
for the future of our country and also lying when he claims to care about me
25:33
when he claims to care about the ordinary working person. Thank you, Sean
25:37
Keep me posted on your dad's development let me know in a future photo whether or not this was the straw that broke the camel's back
25:43
because it should be but unfortunately that's an observation made in a logical universe
25:47
where rules matter well decency matters precedent, principles, traditions matter I should clarify one thing
25:55
when I suggested that it was akin to a coercive relationship where one partner might say
26:00
oh he only hits me because he loves me I should make it clear that women in Reform UK land
26:05
they just get hit for heckling with metal bars 03456060973 is the number you need to tell me
26:12
whether or not you think this will make any difference to the core support, to the base, to the cult
26:18
or are we going to watch everything valuable disappear over the horizon
26:23
as British democracy itself is packaged up and handed over to the highest bidder
26:28
It's 10.31. Matt Hewitt has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. Last week we were listening to some of the lies
26:35
that Donald Trump has told about September the 11th, and we were sort of thinking, how can..
26:40
And then you remember it just gets overtaken. Are we moving into that sort of territory now with Farage
26:45
The five million quid, yeah, don't worry about that. The attempts to secure allegedly illegal donations
26:52
yeah, nothing to see here. Two of my closest confidants have walked the plank, but they were just part-timers anyway
26:58
I mean, just sort of nonsense after nonsense after nonsense. And the more it goes on
27:05
maybe that's the calculation that was taken over the weekend. Let's just throw something else out there
27:10
to distract attention from the police investigations that are still ongoing. So everyone's going to be talking about the 72 million quid for a while
27:16
They won't be talking about the police investigations that are still ongoing. Do you see what I mean, that idea
27:22
I think it is a plan. I think Steve Bannon described it out loud, didn't he, as flooding the zone
27:27
And that idea that if you have all sorts of skeletons rattling around in your closet
27:34
then the best way to distract attention from all of the skeletons rattling around in your closet
27:39
is to throw 10 new skeletons at the people, at the public, at the media every day
27:44
Because you saw with Trump, I found that, what's the word that I want
27:47
I think almost poignant. Two things, actually. Trump lying about September the 11th
27:53
and then his son-in-law essentially siding with Vladimir Putin against Ukraine while ostensibly being America's negotiator
28:00
in that peace process. I've got that clip for you, actually. I'll play it to you shortly. those two things right there this is what i try to convey to you about the sense of everything
28:09
breaking everything being deliberately sabotaged and broken by people interested only in enriching
28:15
themselves further what why on earth is jared kushner a real estate developer um in the room
28:23
where it happens regarding peace negotiations about gaza or ukraine what's in it for him i mean
28:29
they don't even hide it. They don't even hide it. And I have to believe Britain is better than that
28:36
Will we be sending Nigel Farage's children to go and negotiate peace in Ukraine
28:43
to go to the Kremlin, to spend time with the politician that their dad admires most in the world, remember
28:50
That's the point. I don't think we can make powerfully enough because you don't really notice it until it happens
28:56
And when it does happen, you're too busy noticing other things to give it the attention it deserves
29:00
We're back to the boiled frog. We're back to the boiled frog. Do you, like me, think that Britain is better than this
29:08
Or do you think we could go down a path of kleptocracy, oligarchy, plutocracy, call it what you will
29:14
0345 6060973. Sally's in Gloucester. Sally, what would you like to say
29:19
Morning, James. You all right? Very well indeed. How are you? I'm all right
29:23
Yeah, I just, I don't think reformed voters are going to change
29:29
They love being antagonistic. They love that racism is now acceptable, especially on the broadsheets
29:37
And they love everything that Nigel Farage represents in his turquoise Tiffany packaging coloured suit
29:44
What does he represent? Because I mean, I like this phone-in. Not the one we're having today, I like this as well
29:50
But I mean, over the years, we've done it with Trump and we've done it with Farage. What do they get in return
29:54
I think it fuels their anger. They're discontent about how their lives are going
30:03
But if you've got billions of pounds in the bank, that's not... I mean, I'm jumping around
30:08
You're talking about the base and I'm talking about the donors. But there's an awful lot of people
30:11
There are a lot of people in that room in Birmingham, not just the ones beating up women
30:16
but there are an awful lot of people there who are doing perfectly well. You know, they're sort of old school, middle class, comfortably off
30:22
much better off than their own children will be. They've got very little to complain about in the great scheme of things
30:26
They're not all sort of, you know, teeth-gnashing, knuckle-dragging meanies. There is a very, very large swathe of..
30:35
Look at the politicians that they've attracted. What do they get out of it? What do people get out of supporting a party that is dedicated
30:44
as far as we can tell, all we know about them is that they're dedicated to further enriching incredibly rich donors
30:49
Even the bloke who speaks on foreign affairs or finances, Zia Yusuf, even he's given them half a million quid
30:56
I mean, it's an investment fund, really, more than a political party
31:00
So I can see what the investors get. What do the customers get
31:06
I honestly think they're not political. I don't think they think about the greater good for people
31:14
I think they love to watch and see, like, a WWF fight being played out in public
31:23
and they love the come down and the fall down of the political parties that we've known years
31:31
What did we call it during something elite, wasn't it? What was it during the Brexit years
31:37
Oh, come on, come on, do better, Sally. Sorry. The metropolitan elite, the liberal metropolitan elite
31:44
Yeah, whatever, the woke or something. The woke mob, the woke blob
31:48
Yeah, I just, I genuinely think they look at it as entertainment and they enjoy the whole X Factor conferences
31:55
and the bright lights and the showbiz. And also they love that Farage tries to prove people wrong
32:04
and that he has got the ear of the broadsheets. Not just got the ear, he's got stenographers on most of them
32:11
It's weird though, isn't it? Because, you know, the sort of process that you describe is ridiculous
32:18
I presume I'm a fully paid... What do they think the metropolitan liberal elite is
32:22
Is it people who think about things rather than respond to things solely with their emotions
32:28
Is it people who seem to have read too many books? I remember that woman in the front of one of Yaxley-Lennon's rallies
32:34
who got removed by security after she'd been targeted by other crowd members
32:38
who said things like she looks like a lefty or something like that. She was wearing glasses. She looked like she'd read a book
32:43
But again, I come back to the sort of... the Sutton-Colfield contingent
32:48
I think they get scared about people that actually think about the future
32:54
The future for our grandkids' world. The future for the old. The future for the young
33:02
They just think about themselves. So it's performative cruelty. I mean, it's throughout history
33:08
What do you like? I like watching people get hurt. Absolutely. It's entertainment for them, unfortunately
33:14
And the people who are funding it, they're not particularly interested in performative cruelty
33:18
They're just interested in getting richer, whether they're handing over money and being rewarded with a made up job title or whether they are handing over money
33:25
And coincidentally, observing as policies surrounding the area where they've made their money, most obviously cryptocurrency, are introduced in ways that will make it a heck of a lot easier to make a heck of a lot more money
33:38
And the idea of regulating or policing this currency in the same way that other currencies are policed in order to protect against things like money laundering, what an unexpected bonus that would be for people who've just given £36 million each to this party
33:55
Absolutely, and I think they'll love it even more after the recent Channel 4 investigation
34:01
Yeah, well, I don't know why. I mean, you'd think doing this over the years
34:05
I would have become more cynical. I just have to believe that people are always
34:10
always more susceptible to the light than the darkness. It's just that the effort put into tempting them into the darkness
34:16
is so much greater, and they've got, as it is often observed, they've got all the best tunes
34:20
And finally, given that we're running through my greatest hits today, the cue for the ghost train is always 100 times longer
34:26
than the cue for the speak your weight machine. Thank you, Sally
34:30
Turner is in Edinburgh. Turner, what would you like to say? Hi, James. Were you named after the artist
34:36
Not the Movero. Oh, that's a shame. He's one of Brentford's most famous sons, Turner, the artist
34:41
My grandfather's surname, that's where it comes from. Okay, that's nice. Carry on
34:46
What made you pick up the songs? Really just about the £76 million. £72 million, although the interest rates being what they are
34:53
it would have gone up a bit already. You know, when they say, you know, we're receiving this
34:59
and they don't expect anything in return, I mean, that's absolute nonsense, because I've always kept in my mind, right across the board, on anything, if it's free, anything's free, you are the product
35:12
As simple as that. So, you know, it applies to anything. If you're getting something for free, you're the product
35:19
So, you could take, well, even LBC. I mean, we get LBC for free
35:26
But the payback for that is that we have to listen to our viewers. Don't put it like that
35:31
Some of them are quite entertaining. No, I'm not having a go. I'm not having a go
35:35
You know what I'm saying? Of course. You're not coming from. And I think that's the thing
35:39
And it's really just clarifying people's minds that they want something in return
35:44
As you've clearly stated this morning, relative to the Labour Party, they get money from the unions to advance their policies
35:54
The Tories, they get money... I mean, let's be absolutely clear. to advance the welfare and protect the jobs of their members
36:01
So, you know, it's another one of those things that we're going to be the only people pointing out
36:05
while everybody else goes, oh, yes, but what about the unions? You know, the unions have brought in things like
36:10
child labour restrictions, factory acts, health and safety at work, paid holidays
36:15
sex discrimination legislation, equal pay, anti-discrimination laws. What have Benjamin D'Lo and Christopher Harbour
36:22
never done for the working people of the United Kingdom? Precisely, precisely
36:27
But, you know, even looking at the Tories, I mean, they have, you know, they get funds from the energy markets
36:33
from the energy companies, and from the finance. So they're doing the same thing
36:38
I'm not saying I agree with that. Oh, and Labour take, I think the Sainsbury's, I love the Sainsbury's family
36:42
One of them gives millions of pounds to the Labour Party, and one of them gives millions of pounds to the Liberal Democrats
36:46
But it's not, and there will be pressure brought to bear on various areas of policy making
36:52
but it's never as naked as this. And also, why do foreign billionaires
36:57
want to influence who governs this country? Foreign-based billionaires. As you pointed out, it's an order to make more money
37:03
To become richer. How dare you. Are you suggesting for a minute
37:08
that it's not an act of epic altruism? One of them, Benjamin D'Lo, I read that he mentioned that he's autistic
37:14
and said that because he's autistic he can't bear politicians who lie and that's why he supports Nigel Farage
37:21
Oh, terrific. Fantastic. I mean I don know that you can do satire on something like that Why do you support Nigel Farage Because he the one that doesn lie Yeah that right Well I mean he keeps saying he doesn lie You know but he does It obviously Trump I mean you know Trump just an inveterate liar It as simple as that And
37:38
we can all see it. Most of us can see it, hopefully. Do you think this will put people
37:43
off? Because most of us can see it, hopefully. That could be what they write on the gravestone
37:48
of British democracy. Yeah, probably. Do you think it will put people off? Do you think
37:53
people will, I mean, the 5 million quid, they're wobbled in the polls, but they haven't taken a proper kicking
37:59
Of course, he deserves 5 million quid. He's our Nigel. But the 72 million pounds from cryptocurrency billionaires
38:06
who have spent much of their working lives living abroad, one of whom, I'll read you the first line
38:11
of the United States Attorney's Office press release. Arthur Hayes and Benjamin D'Lo designed BitMEX
38:16
as a platform to flout US anti-money laundering rules. And this guy's now giving 36 million quid to Nigel Farage. Absolutely
38:24
Is it going to put people off? I don't know. I honestly don't know. Will it put your Uncle Bob off
38:28
Will it put your Auntie Doris off? Will it put your Uncle Keith off? 03-45-606-0973
38:35
Right, let's play our Monday morning game, shall we? The Burnham Optimism Barometer
38:39
Can we get it out, Keith? Shall we have a sound effect here of like a creaking door
38:43
or something like that? Or it sounds like a crypt is... Wheel in the Burnham..
38:46
Oh, here it comes. It's coming. Oh, look at that. That's nice. A bit of WD-40 over there
38:51
Give it a little polish. but here's the Burnham Optimism Barometer we will put into it in a moment
38:56
your votes, what I want is your mark out of ten for how optimistic
39:00
you are about Andy Burnham's premiership because the numbers have been, I would say, almost unfeasibly high 888
39:09
8999 or something thereabouts, almost unfeasibly high, reality has to bite at some point
39:16
that's not a negative, that's just gravity but what I would like to know
39:20
is where you are today. 0-3-4-5-6-0. That's the WhatsApp number. 0-3-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3. Or you can text 84850
39:29
All I want is a mark out of 10 for how optimistic you currently feel
39:34
about Andy Burnham's premiership. It's 1048. James O'Brien on LBC. It is 1050
39:42
I think I should probably remind you, shouldn't I? Or at least show you some of the things that I talk about
39:47
Here is Donald Trump's son-in-law, essentially suggesting that Ukraine should do exactly what Vladimir Putin wants them to do
39:54
in order to end a war that Vladimir Putin can end tomorrow. This is such a powerful point
39:59
It's brilliantly made frequently by Anne Applebaum, a commentator I admire enormously
40:04
She simply points out, I think irrefutably, that the war would end tomorrow if Vladimir Putin called it off
40:13
Whereas if Ukraine called off their defence tomorrow, Ukraine would cease to exist in its current form
40:19
the language would be abolished, children would be kidnapped and transported to Russia
40:24
The idea that there is a kind of balance here, or that the two entities are engaged in comparable processes is objectively disgusting
40:38
But of course it is the Kremlin talking point, the kind of thing that Nigel Farage's party leader in Wales was taking huge amounts of money
40:45
or relatively, they're not huge are they, compared to the kind of money that the party's getting now from cryptocurrency billionaires
40:50
but taking a significant chunk of money from a Kremlin stooge in order to parrot Kremlin talking points
41:00
I mean, it's going on in plain sight, which is why today we're just wondering whether or not it could happen here
41:06
But anyway, here's Jerry Kushner essentially doing PR for Vladimir Putin. President Putin's laid out his line of what he wants to achieve
41:13
If Ukraine wanted to withdraw out of that line, then obviously we have the rest of the deal set up and put together
41:20
Ukraine right now does not want to do that. If the Russians stop fighting, the war ends
41:26
If the Ukrainians stop fighting, their land will be occupied, their leaders will be killed, their history and language will be erased, and their children will be kidnapped to serve Russia
41:34
But I'm going to play that again because it makes my blood boil. And this is what will happen here, you see, whether or not it's cryptocurrency, billionaires or other interests
41:43
You put people like that in power, and this is what happens. The son-in-law of the United States president
41:50
who has no qualifications, experience or interest in diplomacy or negotiation, and is dedicated solely to self-enrichment
41:57
has somehow become the White House's negotiator of peace. And here he is, essentially doing whatever Vladimir Putin would want him to do
42:09
Mr Zelensky has to do one thing. He has to stop knocking it
42:15
President Putin's laid out his line of what he wants to achieve. If Ukraine, you know, wanted to withdraw out of that line, then obviously, you know, we have the rest of the deal set up and put together
42:25
Ukraine right now does not want to do that. And guess why Donald Trump is talking about Ukraine
42:31
Mr Zelensky has to do one thing. He has to stop knocking out diesel fuel in Russia
42:37
Let him go after targets, but not diesel fuel, because he's causing a shortage of diesel fuel
42:43
This isn't done by the Middle East. This is done by what's happening with Russia and Ukraine
42:48
So we spoke to Mr Zelensky about it. There are plenty of other targets
42:52
Don't hit diesel fuel, because that's hurting the world. We don't want him to hit diesel fuel
42:59
He's hitting diesel refineries. Donald Trump there blaming Ukraine rather than the war in Iran for oil shortages
43:07
This is the thing that happens when wealth essentially co-opts power, when wealth and power become interchangeable
43:17
Benito Mussolini described it best. And that's why today I'm just wondering whether we're watching Britain circle the same plughole with latest developments
43:25
The good news, I suppose, is that the YouGov favourability ratings for Nigel Farage have just dropped
43:32
and his unfavourable score has hit the highest level to date. So maybe enough people will care
43:37
about this kind of conduct but i'm um and i'm hopeful but far from persuaded graham is in
43:43
macclesfield graham what would you like to say hello james again hello um yeah i mean there's
43:49
an old expression isn't there was no such thing as a free lunch and the idea the concept that
43:57
this money is given without strings is frankly taken as all for fools this is money buying
44:07
power. And that's why these two guys are on the reform bandwagon
44:14
Because it's a route for money to buy power. Simple and straightforward as that
44:19
I mean, let's play with the idea that it isn't. That these guys
44:26
one of whom has been pardoned by Donald Trump after paying an enormous fine after being
44:33
convicted of not putting in place, well I'll read what the Attorney General said in the Southern
44:39
District of New York, the Attorney's Office from the Southern District of New York
44:43
he set up a platform to flout anti-money laundering rules, perhaps he's had a
44:49
sort of Damascene conversion I just like what else I really struggling to go with this James but go on let proceed with it Thank you And the bloke in Thailand as well has just sort of looked at the country
45:05
and recognised that, you know, we are ailing in many ways and we need a diagnosis
45:12
We've got a diagnosis. We need a prescription. And they look at Nigel Farage. They look at his track record
45:17
They look at everything we know about him from his school days right through to today
45:21
And they think there's a man. There's an honourable man. There's a decent man
45:24
There's a good man. There's a talented man. There's an intelligent man
45:28
There's a non-racist man. They do all of these things, and they just think, yeah, he's going to make life better for Doris in Ongar
45:36
and Pete in Peterborough and John in Glasgow. He's going to make life better for Graham in Macclesfield
45:43
Possibly, that's... no? No. No. No. No. Going back to first principles here
45:51
this whole narrative from reform that Britain is broken that we are on our knees
45:59
that we are becoming a third world country that we are being overrun
46:03
by aliens is a false narrative it's a creation of fear to manufacture votes
46:10
well there are I mean you're speaking to a bloke who wrote a book called How They Broke Britain so when you bring austerity
46:15
and Brexit I read your book James I'm very glad to hear it but there is
46:19
I mean as I say there is clearly it's not immigration that has broken us
46:23
it's things that were largely supported by Nigel Farage for example off the top of my head Brexit austerity
46:29
and Liz Flippin Trust oh and Boris Johnson who's passage he greased into Downing Street
46:33
I apologise for deploying that phrase again having promised some time ago that I
46:37
would never deploy it again Graham thank you it is coming up to
46:41
10.58 you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC and the short answer is
46:47
I want to believe that we're better than this but I just don't know
46:52
you can derive some optimism you can derive some encouragement from the news
46:56
that 69% of Britons now see Nigel Farage unfavourably that's the highest recorded by YouGov's
47:02
tracker to date but I'm like this with Trump as well 24% still have a favourable opinion
47:08
of the Reform UK leader and I sit here going how can you? What would need to happen
47:14
for you to cease having a a favourable opinion? And I don't know the answer to that
47:22
Is 24%? We used to say 15% to 20%. You can shoot someone on Fifth Avenue
47:26
and not lose a single vote. Maybe it's 20% to 30% and it now sits at 24%
47:33
Andy Burnham's favourability, by the way, stands at 46%, which will probably be reflected
47:38
in the Burnham Optimism Barometer, the results of which I will bring you
47:42
at the top of the next hour. But to date, the very first week we did it
47:46
he scored 8 out of 10, followed by 8 out of 10, followed by 8 out of 10
47:50
In the fourth week, he scored 9 out of 10, followed by 9 out of 10, followed by 9 out of 10
47:55
followed by last week, Monday the 7th of September, another 9 out of 10
47:59
So what do you think the score will be on Monday the 14th of September
48:03
in 6, 7, episode 8 of the Burnham Optimism Barometer? I want to have a slightly strange conversation in the next hour
48:13
that is not inspired by anything that's happened, particularly in the news
48:17
but is inspired by something that happened to me on Friday after I left work
48:21
When I was walking up Charing Cross Road here in London's fashionable West End
48:26
and I saw a car with no driver, just driving up the road in London in 2026
48:32
a car with no driver. I put it on my social media. I only use Blue Sky these days
48:37
But the reaction was so bizarre and so extraordinary that I actually had to delete my original message
48:42
It was almost like the old days of Twitter, but without the racism. And the question, very simply, is what do we think about
48:49
James O'Brien on LBC. Is this a motoring phone-in? I, uh..
48:59
I mean, if you don't know, I have a long history on this programme
49:03
of bucking the trend of radio phone-ins and never doing motoring phone-ins
49:09
I mean, I do know why they are so popular in this media genre, historically
49:13
is because an awful lot of people listen to the radio in their car. And therefore, I think we have a disproportionate number of people who
49:20
or back in the day, there was a disproportionate number of people listening to the radio who were regular motorists
49:26
The car still being one of the most popular places to enjoy your favourite radio presenters
49:32
But I think that's changed a bit in recent years. And I just never liked, I've never heard an interesting radio
49:39
I've certainly never conducted one, except once when we did an ironic take
49:44
on the most outrageous parking ticket you'd ever received. And it was funny for about 20 minutes
49:49
and then it got very repetitive and predictable. And listen, I mean, it is the old adage
49:57
or the old observation that it is not hard to make the phones ring
50:02
It's hard to make them ring with interesting contributions. If you want to make the phones ring
50:06
you just say, is there anybody old out there feeling poorly? Or you say, has anybody ever had a bad parking ticket
50:11
Or flipping X, smart motorways, aren't they awful? Do you see what I mean? You just get the same call
50:17
You get the same call a hundred times. And that is why I have never done motoring phone-ins on this programme
50:25
And I could make quite a strong case, I think, for arguing that I'm not doing one now
50:31
Because I think this is about more than mere motoring. See, I did a lot of Uber stuff back in the day
50:37
I was a great defender of the black cabs I felt that we were going to lose something valuable
50:43
if the proliferation of Uber where the money is essentially being taken out of the pockets of drivers
50:50
and put in the pockets of investors the tech platform being the way in which
50:56
you reduce the amount of money that the person who drives you from A to B takes away
51:00
without actually paying less money because the difference is making its way into the pocket of
51:05
the investors, you know, of the tech bros. So they weren't motoring phone-ins
51:12
They were phone-ins about economics and about society and about change. And I think this one will be as well
51:19
I think this one will be as well. But first, the results of the Burnham Optimism Barometer are in
51:24
I have to say that Ben just sadly got in a little bit late on this
51:28
because he voted zero, which might, well, there's too many votes for it to have made a big difference
51:33
But Ben has bought into this ludicrous Tory line that Andy Burnham has said that he's going to prioritise social security over national security
51:41
Whereas what he actually said, for people who care, was that he wasn't going to take money away from social security
51:48
to put it into national security. He would find the money from elsewhere
51:52
So if you're still buying that nonsense, then I won't make people homeless in order to get more money for the military
52:00
is what the Prime Minister actually said. of course enormous amounts of effort being put into pretending that people or people in my business
52:09
pretending they don't understand that which is fine but it means that people like ben end up
52:14
thinking that it's true um and that is not fine but the result is nine again i'm getting a bit
52:20
suspicious now of the burnham optimism barometer have you checked it keith have you have you have you calibrated it have you checked the batteries is it definitely working Okay I want to make it absolutely clear that I have accepted money from nobody
52:35
in order to conduct polling that has delivered the answer that some people might think I wanted all along
52:41
I wouldn't do that, and even if I was secretly filmed eating oysters while yucking it up and laughing about doing that sort of thing, I would then immediately deny it
52:49
and claim that I was a victim of an establishment stitch-up. So this is entirely organic, but also entirely unscientific polling
52:57
So we're not getting enough bends. When we do get bends, they haven't sent it in in time to get on the board
53:03
Because the result is another nine. So it goes 888-99-999. Five nines now
53:09
It's getting a little bit ridiculous. Week eight, and it's another nine on the Burnham Optimism Barometer
53:16
Right. Let's have a conversation about something that's definitely going to happen
53:20
and yet feels in the very early stages as if it is completely out of the ordinary and incredible
53:26
I left work on Friday, and I was making my way up Charing Cross Road, and I noticed somebody standing on the pavement
53:31
taking a photograph of a car. And I do what you do in those circumstances
53:36
It's a bit like standing in the middle of the street and looking up. And then lots of people will come along and also look up as well
53:42
And she was taking a picture of a vehicle that had a lot of..
53:47
I thought at first it was one of those Google Maps cars. Do you know the cars that drive around with the cameras on them and they're mapping
53:52
And if you're lucky, you might appear in one or your old house will be there and you can see your car parked outside
53:58
I thought it was one of those vehicles. And it wasn't. It was a driverless car
54:06
I think I did a genuine comedy cartoon style double take when I looked through and I thought there's no one driving it
54:12
Oh, that's why she's taking a picture of it. And so I took a picture of it as well
54:16
And I posted the picture on Blue Sky, which is a sort of relatively modest social media platform that is usually free of trolls and racists
54:28
So I stuck it on there and I deleted it a few hours later because I went back to have a look and it had just sort of ignited
54:38
I don't do this on social media anymore. I don't like have rows or engage in sort of defenses of my original position
54:47
So the thing that I wrote is important. I wrote, with Uber in mind, and Deliveroo and all the other ones
54:54
where we're still doing what we used to do, but someone has invented a way of taking some money off the top of it for themselves
55:02
And I had two thoughts in mind when I wrote something like, I presume this technology is only being developed to ensure that the money that currently goes to the drivers
55:11
will instead all go to the people that own the company, the people that have developed the technology
55:16
I don't think fares are going to come tumbling down. Do you
55:20
When there's no longer a driver in the front of your car. I just think the driver is being cut out of the equation
55:25
and all of the money is going to go, as with Uber, to the..
55:29
Well, no. I mean, it's the next stage of Uber, isn't it? Because Uber took the black cab and said
55:34
those black cab drivers, they're making far too much money. We'll have a bit of that, thank you very much
55:38
Let's completely rob them of the ability to be hailed by letting people hail taxis on their phones
55:45
So the historic protection of the black cab driver was that they were the only people you could hail in the street
55:50
For a while, and I think in some territories, it has been pointed out that it shouldn't really matter
55:54
whether you're sticking your hand in the air or pressing a button on your phone. A hail is a hail is a hail
55:59
But in this country, and in this city particularly where I live, we went in the opposite direction
56:04
and decided that it wasn't hailing a taxi at all, even though sometimes they even call it a ride-hailing service
56:09
It was different. So the black cabs got squeezed out, and some of the money that was previously making its way
56:15
into the pockets of ordinary working people now makes its way into the pockets of San Francisco-based
56:20
tech developers and investors in their platforms. And I don't know, do I sound like a Luddite or a communist
56:28
Do I sound like someone complaining about blacksmiths being put out of work by cars
56:33
I honestly don't know. I honestly don't know. And the other thing I had in mind
56:38
when I put this picture up on social media was a friend of mine who recently got back from San Francisco
56:44
And he spent a lot of the time being driven around San Francisco in driverless cars
56:50
Waymo is the company that I think is at the forefront of this, and that was the company that was responsible for the car that I saw on Friday
56:57
And he said something to me that I just found really resonant, and he's a clever lad
57:02
He said, what was really weird is that San Francisco has a massive problem at the moment
57:07
with deprivation and rough sleeping. And a lot of it will be drugs-based
57:12
and obviously you wouldn't want to be driven around by someone who was off their nut on crystal meth
57:16
So this is a simplistic observation. It is not a scientific one
57:21
But it occurred to him that all of the people he was being driven past in a driverless car
57:27
sleeping in doorways, could, in a slightly different universe, have been driving the car that he was in
57:33
That really struck me. I don't know whether it was naively, or it is actually a case of gaslighting
57:39
We'll all sit here saying progress is good, technology is good, even to the point where it renders human beings increasingly redundant
57:45
So there are echoes of the AI conversation here. I told you it wasn't a motoring phone
57:51
There are echoes of supermarket self-service tills, which don't appear to have had any impact upon food prices, do they
57:57
As who's pointed that out? Paul has just pointed out. Whenever technology replaces humans
58:03
the customer doesn't seem to come out of it any better off than they were in the first place
58:08
The only people that come out of it better off are the people who've invested in or created the technology
58:15
So I put this thing up on... It would be farriers, not blacksmiths, of course
58:22
who were put out of business by the motor... the arrival of the motor car. My apologies
58:28
I put this thing up and I simply said, I presume that this technology is being developed
58:33
only to ensure that the money that currently goes to drivers will instead go to investors
58:39
to the people that sit there watching their fortunes grow, whether they're based in Hong Kong or in Thailand
58:44
or in San Francisco or in Kidderminster. There aren't many in Kidderminster, but there might be a couple
58:51
And the reaction was really bizarre. I mean, it was nicely mixed
58:56
Some people were claiming that this is actually wonderful, men mostly, claiming that this will make women
59:02
feel a heck of a lot safer when they travel. And I sort of thought, I mean, is that because of John Wall Boys
59:09
But I sort of thought, oh dear, I hope I haven't missed something there
59:13
I hope this isn't a massively popular thing with young women for reasons of safety and security
59:18
Because then it would have been a slight misstep of me to critique it, to criticize it from the get-go
59:25
And then other people were saying things like, oh, you've just discovered capitalism, have you
59:29
And I just thought, well, that's a bit silly. obviously there are some things that need to be protected
59:34
from the rapacious pursuit of profit. Capitalism does not involve sacrificing absolutely every right and protection that we have
59:42
on the altar of improved profits. And then I thought back to the black cabs
59:49
and I thought I was right about that and yet I was wrong at the same time because I use Uber like everybody else does now
59:55
and it's incredibly helpful to me but it means that some of the money that would once have gone
59:59
entirely to the driver with a cut for the minicab company is now going to people who've got absolutely
1:00:05
nothing to do with my journey except the fact that they've invested in the technology that has
1:00:10
delivered it so as a slightly roundabout introduction what what do we think about
1:00:17
driverless cars and remember this isn't a motoring phone-in this is a phone-in about politics humanity economics
1:00:26
and maybe a little bit of motoring so that's it, you might know more about them than I do
1:00:30
I literally double take I literally did a double take when I saw one
1:00:36
I thought that's so weird but what's the biggest thing that was weird when it started but is
1:00:42
completely normal now what would you put on that list you look back and think we all thought that
1:00:48
that was just like thinking of tomorrow's world and things like that
1:00:52
What would it be, the thing that you thought, wow, that's like space age
1:00:57
and now it's the most common or garden thing imaginable? Because I think that's the way it's going to go
1:01:03
I think that might be the way that it's already gone with the driverless cars
1:01:10
What do we think? Is it stupid to resist? Is it just another example of human beings
1:01:16
being replaced by technology so the challenge becomes finding other things for human beings to do
1:01:22
not describing them as redundant or any of those things. It'll probably be safer than human-driven cars
1:01:27
eventually, if it isn't already. And yet, there's something inside me that on an emotional level, objects
1:01:34
and also on a social level. It's not going to affect me
1:01:40
I'm not a driver. But there's something about it that, I don't know
1:01:44
it just feels... It feels a bit wrong. the number you need is 03456060973
1:01:51
which is the number you need to tell me how you respond to my suggestion
1:01:55
that driverless cars are not the wonderful thing that they're being sold to us as
1:02:03
for a whole heap of reasons chiefly that it's another example of money currently making its way
1:02:08
into the pockets of our friends and family that will subsequently be making its way
1:02:13
into the pockets of tech bros and investors Hit the numbers now, you will get through
1:02:18
James O'Brien on LBC. It's 18 minutes after 11, and the thing I probably haven't conveyed to you
1:02:24
because it's all very me, was that it was like being on Twitter
1:02:29
for the first time on Blue Sky. I sort of felt that I was under attack from everywhere
1:02:34
from every angle. I thought, oh dear, I can't be having this anymore, so I just deleted the original message
1:02:39
I'll give you an example, okay? So, Amy's been in touch. She says, why would it just be young women who might be nervous of travelling with a random male taxi driver
1:02:50
I'm afraid you sound like one of those men to whom older women are simply invisible, which I'm sure you didn't mean to, grateful if you could correct it
1:02:57
But, Amy, I was telling you what people said to me. And also, when I put up a picture of a driverless car, I didn't think that I was going to start World War III
1:03:05
So I'm happy to correct that. But what men were saying to me was that young women will feel much safer than they do currently in minicabs or in taxis
1:03:14
And then another one. How can I think about a driver... I'm so disappointed in you, says Dan
1:03:20
You're still skirting around the edges of the most important issue. Talk about AI, not just the cars that they drive
1:03:27
You keep having superficial conversations about AI. Well, I mean, do I
1:03:32
I try to have deep conversations about AI, but I haven't got the knowledge. It's a phone-in show, mate
1:03:37
You can't complain about a superficial conversation unless you've tried to make it deeper
1:03:42
I am not very knowledgeable about that matter, so I don't know
1:03:47
And then rubbish suggestions for things that appeared to be space age when they first arrived
1:03:52
but are now completely commonplace, with, somewhat surprisingly, cash machines. ATMs coming out at the top of the list so far
1:03:58
in terms of voting. The internet doesn't count. I mean, it's something that becomes, you know
1:04:05
part of our day-to-day lives, but not on a screen. Do you see what I mean
1:04:10
it's a car with no driver. That's not... So it's a box on the street full of money
1:04:15
and you just stick a card in... I don't know that there's anything like driverless cars
1:04:19
What would you put on this list of things that seemed to be absolutely space age
1:04:25
when they first arrived and seem completely normal now? Chris is in Crouch End
1:04:29
Chris, what made you pick up the phone? Yeah, we did a social impact evaluation
1:04:33
of the California driverless taxi scene. Who's we? Who's we? My consultancy
1:04:40
not socially impacted. Wow. So we looked at it, and we looked at it
1:04:44
and it was actually used as evidence against them. But the interesting thing is, you kind of pick up on it
1:04:48
what happens is they vacuum the money out of their local community. Yes. The taxi drivers, quite often
1:04:53
it's a sort of fail-safe net at the bottom for people to get work
1:04:57
They have no money. They have no money to take to their families. Their families have no money to spend in their local shops
1:05:01
The local economy collapses. And meanwhile, the big corpse just vacuum the money out
1:05:06
until basically the whole society collapses. Flippin' heck, mate. I mean, the whole society collapses
1:05:13
I didn't have that on my bingo sheet for a conversation about driverless cars, but obviously, crucially, for my purposes
1:05:19
you prove that this is not a mere motoring topic. This is a topic of enormous importance
1:05:24
And you're right. Well, you clearly did. Why did you do it
1:05:30
I mean, who commissioned it? Well, we did it privately because we saw it
1:05:35
and we were as alerted as you were. I mean, we had the same feelings you did, that this was not good
1:05:39
And what was happening is big tech is marketing up. This is a great opportunity. This is fantastic
1:05:45
And, of course, California was getting really seduced by it all, but there was a small group that was saying
1:05:49
now, hang on, what's the impact? You have to look at the social impact of everything. You have to say, what is the impact upon people, communities and societies
1:05:55
That's what we do. Well, you do. I mean, I think that your average cryptocurrency billionaire
1:06:01
is not looking at the social impact of anything. No. Are they? I mean, quite the opposite, in fact
1:06:06
I mean, we can chuckle, and we do, rightly, but I think that people who don't care about the social impact of stuff
1:06:11
have kind of been winning for the last few years. That is changing, though
1:06:16
I mean, we're seeing, yeah, I mean, things like regulations, SOAP 2026, which controls charities
1:06:22
there's a lot more now regulations on actually reporting, ESG reporting, and we're actually reporting your social impact
1:06:28
not just by numbers, but actually by real impact. That's interesting. Brands are looking at a lot
1:06:33
and I'm finding they're being judged by consumers now very much on what is your impact upon people, communities, society
1:06:39
not just the environment. When you said that it was actually used against them
1:06:43
the research that you did, tell me more about that. We got a note from a lobbying group in California
1:06:48
saying they'd spotted our article on LinkedIn and was using it as part of their evidence
1:06:52
to why California should not be going down this route due to the fact that also several of the cars crashed
1:06:58
some of the got run over, one hit a fire engine. But that's probably..
1:07:03
That sort of helped kill it off for a while. But that's teething troubles, I presume
1:07:07
You know, the technology eventually will be able, in some areas, will be better than humans
1:07:13
and in other areas, possibly not so much. Yes. Do you feel a bit like King Canute, though
1:07:21
My feeling is that we do need to be very pragmatic about all technology AI is another example What is the pros and cons And if you say what is the impact upon our society what is the impact upon our environment we talk a lot about environment we don talk enough about society and that is key because you know I wrote an article recently called The Human Game it what happens when everybody out of work and suddenly the big tech realise nobody got an income so they can spend the money to give them the money they need
1:07:46
And this is why Dan is a bit cross with me, because I'm having shallow conversations about AI
1:07:52
not deliberately, but because I don't, I need people to guide me through some of the bigger ramifications
1:07:58
So we're focusing today on the driverless cars. Would you welcome legislation that limited their use then
1:08:04
I think yes, and I would certainly look at the whole aspect of their economics
1:08:08
Where does the money go? I would insist that a lot of money goes back into the circular local economy
1:08:12
not to be vacuum cleaned out, which is what's happening in all areas
1:08:16
It is, yeah, vacuum cleaned out. I love that phrase. Chris, thank you. That sounds absolutely fascinating
1:08:21
And people sending me footage of themselves in Waymo's while in America in driverless cars
1:08:28
describing it as genuinely better than being in a taxi five minutes into the ride
1:08:31
and we were customising the climate control and the audio settings on the sound system
1:08:35
playing whatever music we like for free through the car. And that is in the other corner
1:08:41
That's on the other side of the scales. So on the one side, it will damage communities
1:08:46
because you are taking money out of the hands of your customers. You know, drivers are some of the hardest working people
1:08:52
I've ever met drive for a living. The hours that they put in and the work that they do
1:08:58
but also the money that they earn and then spend. That just goes
1:09:02
That disappears. That man, that woman there with their bank balance, they have to find something else to do
1:09:09
And eventually, this is where the broader AI question comes in, eventually you find yourself wondering whether or not
1:09:14
there's going to be enough for everybody to do, and that is when, as Chris described it
1:09:19
you have a broader societal collapse. I told you this wasn't a motoring phone-in
1:09:24
Sadiq is in Paddington. Sadiq, what would you like to say? Hello, James. Long-time listener
1:09:31
Welcome. I just wanted to say, well, I was an Uber driver for many, many, many years
1:09:36
and I always used to listen to the debate of black cabs and Uber drivers
1:09:42
And, of course, I always sided with Uber drivers because that's what paid me
1:09:46
Yes. And I noticed with Uber, after a couple of years, the percentages that they would take went up
1:09:56
So it started off at 5%, 10%, 15%, 25%. And each time it went up, it meant I stayed out longer
1:10:06
on the roads trying to, you know, make the money. And now today, I'm no longer an Uber driver
1:10:13
and I see those Waymo cars. Waymo, yeah, Waymo cars. Yeah. Driving around
1:10:19
Have you seen them in London? Have you seen them in London? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I thought I'd seen one of the first ones
1:10:24
I thought I'd seen one of the first ones. Everyone's shaking their heads at me. I go, old man shouts at clouds
1:10:29
No, go on then. So they're out and about. Yeah, I mean, I've seen four today alone. and
1:10:36
initially I never knew what they were just like what you said earlier I thought they were the Google
1:10:41
Google mapping cars and when I looked into it you know it appeared to be the
1:10:46
technology for the driverless cars now what makes me feel sick is that these Uber drivers
1:10:55
these men and women who are currently putting in a shift will be out of a job
1:11:00
pretty soon and And then traditionally, so this is why I found my experiences on social media on Friday so dispiriting
1:11:09
So at this point, I would say something like, oh, and, you know, all the lamplighters got put out of business when we discovered electricity
1:11:17
Do you see what I mean? All the farriers got put out of business when the motor car was invented
1:11:21
So the history of humanity involves technological improvement that renders some of the jobs that humans are doing redundant
1:11:28
But then we find other jobs to do. I don't know why, and I'm probably being a bit silly
1:11:33
but this feels a bit different to me. It does feel different
1:11:37
I mean, the car industry is... The public sector, well, the driving industry doesn't need..
1:11:49
And this might be coming from someone who obviously has a dog in a race
1:11:54
but it doesn't need this sort of an improvement where it's putting people out of work
1:11:59
Do you know what you sound like? Go on. You sound like a black cab driver 10 years ago
1:12:04
And this is what is crazy, James. Now I sit and I understand exactly
1:12:10
where the black cab drivers were coming from. I never did then
1:12:14
but today I'm with the black cab drivers. But what about the punter
1:12:18
What about the passenger who now has a better deal than they had before
1:12:24
many would argue? They don't get a better deal. Not financially, but it's easier to get a car than it used to be
1:12:31
But they don't get a better deal, James. And those numbers... It's still going to be the same situation
1:12:35
It's still going to be driving in London, still waiting in traffic for your driverless car to come pick you up
1:12:40
It's still all the same. But at the end of the day, what consumers really want is their pockets, right
1:12:46
But these prices are all going to come down. Everything is regulation
1:12:52
And this whole flipping political movement, of which cryptocurrency is probably the vanguard now
1:12:58
They don't want regulation. We don't want any limits on how we can make money
1:13:01
We don't want laws in place to protect people, punters as well as professionals
1:13:06
You know, we don't like trade unions. We don't like health and safety
1:13:11
We don't like regulation. Got to deregulate things. Stop putting limits on how much money we can make
1:13:17
And you persuade people, customers, that this is what they want. Whereas in fact, it hurts them because, you know, you could be a customer today and the driver tomorrow
1:13:28
I love the way Chris described it as one of those jobs that is there to catch you sometimes
1:13:33
Some people choose to do it, love doing it. Some people do it for a while while they're setting something else up
1:13:38
Some people do it on the side. And all that money gets recycled through the economy
1:13:42
Whereas now it gets vacuumed or soon it just gets vacuumed into whoever backed Waymo
1:13:49
It's not just politicians that are for sale. It's half past 11. Thank you, Sadiq
1:13:53
You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Give me the positives as well, but I do think there's something much bigger here
1:13:59
than just a car. Matt Hewitt has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC
1:14:05
It is 26 minutes to 12. I've got the mooch on the show today. Anthony Scaramucci
1:14:10
a brief member of Donald Trump's inner circle and subsequently, of course
1:14:16
a great adornment to the podcasting world. But his new book, All the Wrong Moves
1:14:19
I mentioned to you some months ago, is absolutely fascinating. And indeed, so is he
1:14:26
So stick around for that. He'll be joining us at about half past twelve. And speaking of books, another lovely volume has landed
1:14:33
which is part of, or which contributes to the attempts of honest people
1:14:36
to correctly and accurately portray London as it is, imperfect but wonderful
1:14:41
as opposed to how it is often portrayed online, which is complete lies, usually racist
1:14:47
So a pal of mine. Chris has got a new book out called London Calling
1:14:52
that I going to be telling you a little bit about as well before the end of the programme So two things there to put on your wish list But will you be putting a driverless car on them on there Two questions for you Paul and Andre I be with you imminently I promise
1:15:06
But you know how this programme works. You rung into it. Can't expect me to come to you immediately
1:15:12
Why am I so interested in why people still fall for Farage's nonsense
1:15:18
That was essentially the conversation in the first hour. and I've always found road rage
1:15:25
almost similarly fascinating. What is it that happens in cars that makes people behave in ways
1:15:32
that they would never behave in any other context? The closest I've come to a fight, I think
1:15:37
in the last 20 years was as a consequence of... And I was just a passenger
1:15:41
I felt someone was disrespecting my wife. But there's some weird psychology to it
1:15:48
and I just wonder whether driverless cars will see off-road rage. Could you get cross with a driverless car
1:15:58
It'd be basil faulty, wouldn't you? You'd have to attack it with a tree. I don't know
1:16:02
I'm just thinking about the plus sides, because there must be some, but right now I just think that that line from Chris in Crouch End
1:16:09
the social impact expert, eventually we're going to have farmed everything out to AI, to technology
1:16:15
and what is going to be left for us to do? And listen, obviously at this point, it's traditional to shout universal basic income
1:16:25
But if you think you're going to be able to get that over the line in a country where the politicians and the governments have been bought, sold and packaged up for easy digestion by cryptocurrency billionaires, then I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you
1:16:38
So it's a phoning about driverless cars, but it is so much more than that as well
1:16:42
Paul's in Winchester. Paul, what do you reckon? Um, 100%. It is so much more than just the driverless cars
1:16:50
Driverless cars right now are in the early stage. Eventually, they will be ubiquitous, they'll be normal
1:16:55
Think about every sci-fi film you see. Yeah. Most of the cars have no drivers in them
1:17:00
Fundamentally, they'll be more efficient, they'll be safer, they'll be used when they need to be used
1:17:05
but they'll still be, you know, the artisan driver out there. When do we get the hoverboards
1:17:11
If you're talking about every sci-fi film I've ever seen, When do we get the hoverboard? I thought we'd have the hoverboards by now, Paul
1:17:16
We're not far off that. Well, hurry up. If you look at the drones, the people who've got little..
1:17:21
Yeah, yeah. You've got little hoverboards underneath it. But more importantly, this is just a symptom
1:17:27
And your point about geopolitics and economics and Chris's points about social impact
1:17:32
this is literally what you're seeing is a symptom of a concentration of technology power
1:17:38
which has given you innovation, but it's not necessarily progress. It's not progress when you look at economics
1:17:44
It's not progress when you look at social policy. You look at other symptoms of this
1:17:48
sort of like the backlash against data centers, the impact on graduate jobs or cognitive workers
1:17:57
so white-collar workers who are just doing brain work rather than manual labor
1:18:02
All of these are symptoms of this exponential impact of AI. And the question is, who's responsible for the impact
1:18:10
because it's not the technology companies. They're concentrating the power. Without any responsibility, as we see
1:18:17
Without any responsibility. Most obviously probably with social media at the moment. Yeah, absolutely
1:18:22
And it's the same model. And it's up to governments to make them responsible or to regulate
1:18:27
And at the moment, very few governments seem to be rising to that challenge and possibly even understanding it
1:18:32
100%, which is why I do what I do, which is to create foresight games
1:18:37
where we put policymakers in possible futures. And we asked them, what would you do
1:18:43
And you put it in competition. So we ran a game called Intelligence Rising in 2024
1:18:48
And we had the UK, the US, China, the tech companies, and a bunch of social commentators
1:18:53
all competing around the next 10 years, not looking at AI itself
1:18:58
but looking at the impact of AI and how you'd come about. And the fundamental problem was twofold
1:19:04
One is the race dynamics. and you had Donald Trump say just this week
1:19:08
oh, sorry, just yesterday, oh, don't worry about all of the risks. We're in a race
1:19:12
We have to win. And whoever wins will be everything. The problem is the people who follow AI in detail
1:19:16
will say as soon as anybody wins, we all lose. How do you mean
1:19:22
Well, when AI really reaches... Oh, I see what you mean. Yes, this is..
1:19:27
Yeah, sorry. This is the apocalyptic warnings from the end of last week. Yeah. And it's not so much apocalyptic
1:19:32
It is an easy pathway to see how AI optimized for human alignment
1:19:38
so humans aren't very good at looking after themselves. I can do it better
1:19:44
That's the chilling line right there. I can do a better job than they can do themselves
1:19:49
I hope Dan is enjoying this conversation. He was very cross with me for having superficial conversations about AI
1:19:55
I think you're remedying some of that. Can I find out more about the thing you did
1:19:59
or do I have to pay thousands of pounds to access it? No, no, no, no. I mean, if you want to partake in it, you can
1:20:06
But there was a documentary that was filmed alongside the 24 game
1:20:12
and that is going through the festivals and private screenings at the moment
1:20:17
It's called Intelligence Rising, and you can see the trailer for it at intelligencerising.film as the website
1:20:24
and you can get a flavor for it. But we're expecting it to be on wider distribution later this year
1:20:29
because it's clearly got a shelf life. We wrote it in 24, and so far, 30% of what we predicted is already happening in the real world
1:20:37
Good grief. What do you say, and a couple of people making this point
1:20:41
I'll take Pete in Birmingham as their leader, that this is the conversation that the Luddites were having over 200 years ago
1:20:49
There is no difference at all. Yeah, it is inevitable. And one of the things that we had in the game was a group of neo-Luddites
1:20:56
who basically said, we're moving too fast, we need to slow everything down
1:21:01
They became an organized criminal gang that used AI in the wild because there's open weights and all this sort of stuff on the dark web and created cyber attacks that were designed to hold governments to account and say, you have to slow things down
1:21:16
And by the way, regulation is not the answer. Regulation moves too slow in terms of AI
1:21:20
Why is the answer? AI. Basically, it is a mutual responsibility that recognizes
1:21:25
that the impact of AI is something that we have never seen before as a species
1:21:31
and we need to take collective responsibility as a global threat and a global opportunity, by the way
1:21:38
It's sort of story. Now I'm hearing oddly, and allow me to explain, fossil fuel
1:21:45
because that's great, but the climate would be that as well and yet the people make so much money
1:21:51
out of the fossil fuels, that they both drown out, shut down, and attack all of the
1:21:55
people who are doing what you described, the sort of sense of collective responsibility
1:21:58
for the general good. The sums of money are so huge that you can shut
1:22:03
down logic, and you can shut down decency, and if it can happen with fossil fuels, it can happen
1:22:07
with AI. Well, there's a very big difference between the climate argument
1:22:11
and AI, and that is the speed of impact. With AI, sorry, with climate, it was the boiling frog
1:22:17
The present people saw of problems, but you could argue that actually it's not that bad because it just slowly got
1:22:23
worse and worse until we are where we are today With AI the impact of change on an exponential curve will be so fast and we are already seeing the impacts 18 months right i mean you think about you roll a clock back three years
1:22:36
ai was nothing right now you have got like protests you've got economic disruption you've got cyber
1:22:43
attacks you've got biochemical issues this feels different what can we do or the levers approach
1:22:48
for government is simply regulation but regulation moves too slow but what about well crikey but
1:22:54
what about nuclear weapons? What about international regulation? I mean, again, you would say that
1:23:00
come off it, you're going to have 10 years of negotiation before you even get a draft treaty in place on this stuff
1:23:04
So, the only option, I'm probably going to argue with you about this, which is incredibly arrogant of me
1:23:08
because you know what you're talking about, and I don't. But, you're saying the only option
1:23:12
is to trust the companies to regulate themselves? No, it's the companies and the governments
1:23:19
So, the fundamental problem here is the race dynamic. Well, hang on, no
1:23:23
So, Bannam. Bannam, you can't have your cars on our streets until you've put in place the kind of self-regulation
1:23:29
that we are comfortable with. And then it'll happen quickly, because they want to get those cars on the flipping streets ASAP
1:23:34
but they can't do so until we're comfortable that they are observing..
1:23:40
So that might work in a small country. Right. Maybe in the UK, but in the US it's already out there
1:23:46
In an advanced country like China, it's going to flow out there. All you'll end up looking is an economically backward company
1:23:52
who's not prepared to take the advantage of your technology. Yeah, but I might be, you know
1:23:57
Ireland has a very different relationship with Uber from the UK, for example
1:24:01
and the most popular taxi app in Ireland is free now because Uber can only add a small booking fee on top of the meter price
1:24:10
which is very different from what happens here. And I don't look at that and think, gosh, Ireland's backwards
1:24:16
No, but it's a relatively small player in the global stage of economic progress
1:24:20
Yeah, so if the massive players do something, then you can't really go against the grain
1:24:25
But the point I was going to say is the race dynamic between China and America
1:24:29
Whilst they are racing to be first, nothing will change. What we need, and this is where things really, really change
1:24:37
and a really hard ask is China and America need to come together and say
1:24:41
actually, we need to slow the progress, we need to share the progress
1:24:46
and we need to focus on the safety aspects. So the metaphor I use at the moment is you go back 50 years and you look at cars going back to your motoring show call-in
1:24:56
Cars were being innovated in capability, speed, and all of the other things about making them good without actually thinking about the safety mechanisms
1:25:04
We had drum brakes. We created better brakes, but we were still crashing
1:25:09
So then we realized we needed better safety capabilities, crumple zones, airbags, etc., etc
1:25:14
aviation industry the pharmaceutical industry all of these other industries invest about 15
1:25:20
percent of their revenue in safety right now in ai is about four or five percent and it has been
1:25:25
for the last three years these are the calls this is how i get out of bed in the morning what's your
1:25:29
background paul what i mean how do you end up doing what you do now so so i spent 30 years in tech
1:25:34
um in marketing um but after that when i look back and i realized that ultimately all i was doing is
1:25:40
is telling stories to convince people around the next technology. And then I realized that stories are really good
1:25:46
at helping people think about difficult problems, really complex problems, because that's how we engage with the world
1:25:52
So we started crafting stories that enabled people to think about strategy and problems and plans
1:25:57
And what would you do? And that's what it is. It's basically competitive storytelling
1:26:01
is the other way of looking at it. I love that. I'm glad you were listening today. I really am
1:26:05
Thank you. And I suppose if I've understood most of what you say
1:26:09
You may have made this point yourself, but the worst thing that could have happened in the last few days
1:26:12
is Donald Trump boasting about the fact that the United States of America is beating China
1:26:17
Yes, and that is the endemic problem. Until we say, you know, racing to the cliff edge
1:26:24
because that's where the finish line is, is going to kill us all. And on that happy note, thank you, Paul
1:26:30
James O'Brien on LBC. It is 11.49, and it is one of those phone-ins where you feel..
1:26:37
I told you, Keith, that it wasn't a motoring phone-in. Infinitely more fascinating than that
1:26:42
I mean, infinitely more fascinating than that, but not exactly uplifting, is it
1:26:47
The idea that the only way we're going to sort of stop the march of the robots is by getting the robot makers to assume a lot more responsibility
1:26:54
And a cursory glance at what the social media companies have done
1:26:58
does not fill you with optimism, especially not in a country where our democracy is for sale at the moment
1:27:05
I think it's fair to say. and we all know the people who are buying it
1:27:09
And Chris and Crouch End, by contrast, seem to be a little bit more optimistic
1:27:13
about the idea of humanity rising to the challenge posed by AI more broadly
1:27:20
and then in the context of today's conversation, driverless cars. And we've got nothing
1:27:27
No one's come up with a really good example of something that felt totally space age when it felt..
1:27:32
We've got the driverless train, haven't you? The DLR. Was that totally... I can't really remember, actually
1:27:39
Maybe that's the point. It becomes commonplace so quickly that you can't remember when it felt space age
1:27:45
I'm trying to think what mine would be in my life. I mean, a digital watch
1:27:50
A digital watch? Television, do you think? That would have felt kind of space age
1:27:56
I mean, to be honest, I wasn't around when television was invented
1:28:00
Although some of my younger colleagues might possibly think that I was. I remember my first Casio digital watch
1:28:07
had a light on it, that was it it told the time and it had a light on it you could press a little button on the side of the watch
1:28:12
and the light would come on and I felt like Captain Kirk but we haven't got teleporting
1:28:16
have we? or hoverboards what would be the thing, where would you put driverless cars
1:28:22
on the list, what else would be on the list of things that made you go wow
1:28:26
and then suddenly you're just going hmm Andre's in Kilburn, Andre what made you pick up the phone
1:28:31
Hi James I called many years ago about the AI chat. I'm blind and we discussed pictures and things
1:28:38
Now, look, I'm left-leaning and I'm obviously a lot of things that a lot of left-leaning people hate
1:28:42
I like AI and I like driverless cars. Then my bias is because I'm blind
1:28:48
I'm also a musician and also I use Uber for everything I do, right
1:28:52
Of course. So my heartfelt thank you to all Uber drivers everywhere that have ever helped me
1:28:56
You are my guiding star. And a driverless car will be less help to you, won't it
1:29:02
Yes and no. So if you were to look at a set of scales
1:29:06
you'd probably see sort of a no. Oh, you'd get your own driverless car
1:29:10
You wouldn't be ordering them up from elsewhere. This is the plan
1:29:14
Right. The regulation, I think, and if you've ever read John Mars, The Passenger
1:29:19
you would see why driverless cars are a terrible idea. Right. But I don't want us to go down that route
1:29:25
I want us to go down the route of good regulation, looking at this stuff properly
1:29:29
making sure that everybody is safe and secure, and that means that I could go to a gig without having to rely on anybody or anything except my own vehicle
1:29:37
Because you'd have your routine in place at home to load up the car and get going
1:29:41
and then a routine in place at the destination to get out of the car and get set up
1:29:46
but you wouldn't be able to do that with a vehicle arriving randomly, as it were, every time you needed one
1:29:52
You'd have a system, you'd have a routine in place. I don't know that this is anathema to the left
1:29:57
Do you know what I'd do? Do you promise not to load? Promise? Promise
1:30:02
Okay. I'd limit, you can only own one. Works for me. So the tech companies make their money from selling driverless cars to individuals
1:30:13
and you buy it like a pension fund, or you buy it like an investment property
1:30:18
and you can only own one. So I buy one, and I send it out to work for 20 years
1:30:23
and it pays back what I paid for it, and then I make a little bit of money on top
1:30:28
Right? Yeah, brilliant. And you can only own one, which means that you're not ripping the heart out of the industry
1:30:35
and the bloke that was driving it last week owns one next week. Yeah, that's not my intent for this kind of thing at all, of course
1:30:42
because without Uber drivers, I wouldn't be where I am a lot of the time. And if I come home from a gig late at night, right, the last thing I need is help to my door
1:30:50
because it might be raining, and sometimes you drop off a little bit further away
1:30:53
A driverless car isn't going to help with that. But what it would help with, right, is those times when I can be met at both ends
1:30:59
and I can go from eight to eight, and it will cost me less. Yeah, no, I've got no..
1:31:03
I don't really want one. Well, I can see why, and I hope you get one, I really do
1:31:07
And, you know, the regulation that Paul was talking about would be, wherever it comes from
1:31:14
and his conviction that it would have to be, if you like, organic, it would have to be self-generated by the big companies
1:31:20
wouldn't be a threat to you at all. You know, you would still be able to avail yourself
1:31:24
of this advancing technology. Can I ask you about... Yes. What about the glasses
1:31:29
that I keep reading about. Oh, thank you so much. Go on. The quote-unquote pervert glasses
1:31:33
Again, I use these, but I don't want to be punched in the face for my use of them. No. When I'm out, yeah, I'm a piano player
1:31:39
So when I'm at my gigs, I like to film for social media of me playing just to prove to people that, yes
1:31:43
I do leave my house sometimes, and yes, I do play. And, you know, it's great
1:31:47
I've got a top-down view of my hands on the keys. I can play. But people look at you with these
1:31:52
and they make an instant knee-jerk reaction. This person is evil because they're filming
1:31:57
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I thought you probably had a relationship with them
1:32:01
It's grossly unfair, because, I mean, people who are not blind, who are using them
1:32:05
do probably have to account for their behavior a little bit more completely than you do
1:32:10
Yes, absolutely. And in fact, the first time I used a pair of these was actually to drive a car
1:32:14
I was driving around Silverstone Racetrack. What? Yeah, there was like, they call it a driving experience
1:32:20
and you drive around the racetrack, Silverstone it was, I think it was
1:32:24
and so I was able to film myself driving a car with the Meta glasses
1:32:28
That was so cool. I hope this isn't an inappropriate question. No, it's not
1:32:32
How blind are you? Completely, totally and utterly. And it was with a co-pilot, not a Microsoft version
1:32:38
a real person to the left of me telling me where to turn and how to turn
1:32:42
What was that like? What was that like? Unbelievable. An Aston Martin car
1:32:47
I'd do it again in a heartbeat. I bet you would. I mean, there you go, eh
1:32:52
Talk about a conversation. I thought you might have something to say about the glasses
1:32:57
I haven't done a phone-in on them yet. I may not need to now, Andre, because you've sort of closed it down
1:33:01
And what you remind us of is the delivery point of these technologies
1:33:06
So we've had some highfalutin and fascinating conversations about the broader issues, but the delivery point is going to be crucial
1:33:13
And I may not be massively persuaded by someone sending me footage of themselves in the back of a Waymo in Los Angeles
1:33:19
and expressing delight at the ability to set the air conditioning and listen to whatever music you want to
1:33:24
and not have to make chit-chat with the driver. But then when a blind man tells me
1:33:28
that it is life-changing technology from his point of view, then you have to recognize that the point of delivery is crucial as well
1:33:36
It's all relevant. It's all interesting. But I guess some perspectives are more interesting than others
1:33:41
Andre, stay safe. It's 11.56. I think video calls is what we're going to go with
1:33:46
as the most space-age thing that became completely normal. And we kind of didn't really kick in until lockdown, did it
1:33:53
I know we could do FaceTime. You could FaceTime your mum so that the kids, the grandkids could see her and stuff like that
1:33:59
But when you think about it, that crept up on us, that technology. It's not quite as amazing as a driverless car
1:34:05
You're not going to, like, walk into the street and go, wow, because we were used to screens
1:34:08
and we were used to television. I don't know what we would put up there
1:34:12
as comparable to a driverless car as the thing that seemed completely space-age
1:34:16
and then 10 minutes later seemed completely normal. Dylan is in Cambridge
1:34:20
Dylan, what would you like to say? Good morning, James. Hello. Actually, I want to challenge one thing for the technology bit
1:34:27
first of all, very quickly. Of course. I remember watching iRobot, and there's a scene where Will Smith's with his sergeant in a cafe
1:34:34
and he pays for something with a little contactless card. Yes. My friend and I looked at each other, and we just, our jaws dropped
1:34:41
Really? And, you know, that's exactly what happened with paying for things
1:34:45
with your Apple Watch or with your phone. Yeah, yeah. I remember the first couple of months I used to be able to do that
1:34:50
I was just besotted. That's incredible, isn't it? And now you don't even notice that you're doing it
1:34:55
You're right, of course. I mean, that's kind of my point, is that we've all forgotten how amazing it was at the beginning
1:35:01
because it's now so normal. Driverless cars will be like that within a year or two
1:35:07
Well, quite, yeah. Now, listen, I feel a little bit like the kid in the back of the class
1:35:11
with his hand up who's sort of lost out on the chance to say loads of really great things
1:35:15
because the other callers have said so many good things already. I've got great faith in you, Dylan
1:35:20
but I don't have an enormous amount of time. I know. I'll be as quick as I can
1:35:24
I think what you really provoked the thought in me was that why do we have to hand over all of the opportunities to these tech bros
1:35:31
Why can't we set up our own government schemes where we have our own industry, dare I say, nationalised
1:35:38
where we actually, you know, we reinvest into the technology ourselves and people who may not be able to drive
1:35:45
we can get them into other parts of the industry. I like that
1:35:49
I mean, it's probably naive, like my idea of only letting people own one
1:35:53
so that you get rid of the sort of creaming the money off the top on an epic, epic industrial scale
1:35:58
and allow people to actually run a kind of little mini business
1:36:02
by owning one, but it's never going to work. Yours is a lot more feasible, I think
1:36:07
The idea that the government actually steps in and does some sort of, what would it be
1:36:11
a partnership with big tech so that some of the money doesn't make its way
1:36:17
into the pockets of the developers and the investors and instead gets recycled back through society
1:36:21
because that's the key. The accrual of ever-growing amounts of wealth, whether it's in cryptocurrency or in fossil fuels
1:36:30
or in anything else, kind of picks all of our pockets. And this tech is heading in exactly the same direction
1:36:37
It is coming up to 12 noon. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:36:42
James O'Brien on LBC. Three minutes after 12. I suspect we will respond to the pro-independence First Minister's
1:36:51
new memorandum of understanding that you just heard about in the news tomorrow. Give it time to percolate, as it were
1:36:57
and give ourselves time to absorb a little more of it. The leaders of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland
1:37:04
signing a deal designed, in the words of one right-wing newspaper, which I don't think is incorrect, by the way
1:37:10
to kick-start the break-up of the United Kingdom. I think it was about a week after Brexit I suggested that they had unwittingly set in
1:37:18
motion a process that would see the United Kingdom break up, although I was at the time
1:37:22
talking exclusively about the unification of Ireland Northern Ireland of course having voted to stay in the European Union and all the people who said that that wouldn be a problem oh it doesn matter proved spectacularly wrong about everything as you would expect
1:37:40
Trump weighing in on the Irish question today as well, which might have given us grounds for having a conversation about it
1:37:45
but it's kind of stop clock right twice a day territory, isn't it? I'm more interested in what the various First Ministers
1:37:50
of course, one of whom we met on the programme on Friday, are going to be saying and have already said today
1:37:59
Renat Eweth joining us on Friday for a really interesting conversation. We're going to get him back for the podcast
1:38:04
Speaking of which, Scaramucci, Anthony Scaramucci, joins us at half past twelve to talk about his new book and more
1:38:12
And he's scheduled to appear on the podcast soon as well. And finally, just to knit things together in the way that you've come to expect
1:38:20
Tony Hadley out of Spandau Ballet. Pardon? Yes. So I got a few messages during the last hour
1:38:27
about the change to the print industries at Wapping, when the closed shop that the trade unions had on the printing
1:38:35
was smashed to smithereens by Rupert Murdoch and others. A chap called Eddie Shah had set the process in motion
1:38:42
And Tony popped in recently to record a full disclosure that will come out a little later this year
1:38:48
And his family were in that world, very much so. It was fascinating for me as the son of a newspaper man
1:38:54
to talk to the son of a family or member of a family
1:38:58
that was very, very much on the print. So it's funny how these things, these planets sometimes align
1:39:04
these things somehow knit together. I want to talk next about something we didn't talk about last week
1:39:10
but could have done. We just got slightly overtaken by events. I can't think of anything new to say about school meals
1:39:16
You know that school meals constitute one of my all-time favourite phone-in subjects
1:39:20
but we've done it so often in recent years that I can't think of anything new to say
1:39:25
with regards to schools being told to serve vegetables with every main meals
1:39:30
and restrict pizzas, sausage rolls and sugary puddings. The only thing I did think this morning
1:39:35
and unfortunately my private school privilege kicked in without me noticing, which is the thing about privilege
1:39:41
those of us who have it often don't notice it, which is why we object so furiously when other people point it out and insist
1:39:46
no, no, no, no, no. I was not born 3-0 up. I did indeed score a hat-trick, unaided and entirely independently
1:39:52
I was thinking about exercise. You go to a school like mine
1:39:56
you did an hour or two hours of sport every single day, Monday to Friday
1:40:01
and then you'd have an arranged match against another school on a Saturday. And, of course, if that's the only thing
1:40:07
you ever knew educationally, that's what you presume everybody else has done. It's fair to say that a quick straw poll in the office
1:40:14
before we came on air this morning established the fact that that is an extraordinary experience
1:40:19
for a child at a British school to do between one and two hours of organised sport every single day
1:40:25
and then have formalised matches against other schools on Wednesdays and Saturdays
1:40:29
That was my experience from the age of seven. And I wish I could say it was my experience until the age of 18
1:40:36
but one of the stupidest things I did as a consequence of my supposedly rebellious nature
1:40:41
was opt out of rugby at a school where rugby was a religion. And I look back on that and feel like an absolute flump
1:40:47
because I really liked playing rugby. I just didn't like the way that they told me it was more important than anything else
1:40:52
A bit like Bill Shankly's attitude to football. But I could have done two hours of organised sport every day
1:40:59
and therefore I could have eaten anything. My diet wouldn't really have mattered
1:41:05
I wonder whether we've missed one essential half of the school. Am I talking myself out of doing the phoning that I was going to do
1:41:11
and into doing the phoning that I was? I am, aren't I? I am because that's what I want to talk about
1:41:15
So we spend hours talking about school dinners, and we never talk about exercise, do we
1:41:22
How many stories have you read? How many things have I shared with you in recent years
1:41:26
about revolutions in school dinners? It started with Jamie, of course, and has continued subsequently
1:41:36
but no government seems to have got it right. Governments come and governments go
1:41:40
and revolutions in school dinners kind of land and then leave again
1:41:44
and we never ever talk about the other half, the other side of that coin
1:41:51
So if you want children to be healthy and diet is going to be a large part of it
1:41:58
but diet is not all of it and yet almost all of the conversations I can remember having
1:42:03
have looked exclusively at food and diet. Today's story, if you're not across it
1:42:09
involves sugary drinks, high sugar foods like ice cream and waffles being restricted
1:42:14
Deep fried foods off the menu entirely. Really processed stuff, very high in fat and salt
1:42:19
It's going to be limited. The kids who have pizza every day are going to have to start trying to eat other things
1:42:24
Ditto sausage rolls and sugary puddings. They are calling it the biggest overhaul of food standards
1:42:29
in more than a decade. More than a decade. That's the point I'm kind of making
1:42:34
It should be the biggest overhaul in food standards in 100 years. But the biggest overhaul in food standards in more than a decade
1:42:40
and I have accidentally stumbled into a subject that is linked to that but actually not that so
1:42:48
we're not having a conversation now about school dinners and the introduction of greens and more
1:42:56
vegetables we're going to talk about exercise and and there are two ways into this there's the
1:43:02
overview and then there's the interview the interview which is not a bloke from Essex saying
1:43:08
interview. The inner view is how much exercise do your children get at school? How can I sit here
1:43:14
at the age of 54 having presented this radio program for over 20 years and have absolutely
1:43:18
no idea what the common experience is of a state-educated British 14-year-old when it
1:43:24
comes to their relationship with exercise? I have absolutely no clue. Isn't that incredible
1:43:32
I mean, my nephews play football, but I don't know how formal, I don't think they do it every day
1:43:37
you play a little bit in break. If we're not paying attention
1:43:43
to the exercise side of the equation, then we are up to a point
1:43:49
wasting our time focusing so heavily upon the food side of the equation
1:43:53
aren't we? Aren't we? That's the overview. So do we know why
1:43:58
this situation has come about? Do we know whether it is something that is receiving
1:44:04
anything like as much attention as the actual food side of the equation? And do we know for sure that it is as important as it initially feels
1:44:13
So, what's the question then? What's the actual question? I mean, in the first instance
1:44:19
I don't want to take up the whole show with this because it could get a little bit repetitive
1:44:23
but are there children out there today who are doing no exercise whatsoever in a school environment
1:44:28
Do we still have PE classes? And you play football in break, right
1:44:32
Or do they all sit there looking at their phones? Who can answer this question
1:44:35
Do you even know as a parent what kind of exercise your children are having? Do we still
1:44:41
do PE classes in state schools? You do have, what, once a week? 0345 6060973. Are our children
1:44:49
getting exercise in state schools And I mean it just seems almost unbelievable to me that we spent the last 20 years recognising from the point of view of adults how important It always the line from the lazy people isn it
1:45:06
Eat less, exercise more. No such thing as obesity or in my day
1:45:10
Eat less, exercise more. We never ever talk about the exercise more side of this
1:45:16
Are you... Look, this is one of those moments at 12 minutes after 12
1:45:20
where either I'm making an absolute fool of myself or you, like me, have just had a light bulb appear above your head
1:45:26
and you are also going, God, he's right. Why do we never hear phone-ins about children doing exercise
1:45:32
It's because all we ever do is have phone-ins about what they eat. I get very excited when you send me the menu from France
1:45:37
about what a little child at a French school is getting and the wonderful array of dishes and cuisines that they get to enjoy
1:45:45
And then we talk about the turkey twizzlers and Jamie Oliver's great work on improving things
1:45:50
and then the idea that some of it has been set back again and the difficulties and how much it costs
1:45:54
I don't remember ever having a phone-in on LBC about exercise, about children exercising
1:46:02
I guess we've done the obesity phone-in and we've had a couple of calls come in saying
1:46:08
this is important, this matters, but we never hear government talking about it
1:46:13
We never hear commentators talking about it. It never seems to be a crucial part of the conversation
1:46:20
The first question I've got for you is rhetorical. Because I was tempted to say to you
1:46:25
should it be a crucial part of the conversation? And I think that's rhetorical, right
1:46:33
It absolutely should be. So the second question then becomes the one I want you to ring in on
1:46:39
And I guess the first bit of it is, am I going mad or have I just accidentally stumbled
1:46:45
into something really significant? 0345 6060 973. because the second question is
1:46:52
why do we not talk more about exercise in schools? If it's because everything's hunky-dory
1:46:58
and the kids are running around like you wouldn't believe every day for an hour
1:47:02
then that's fine. I want to hear your stories about what your children are doing but I sense that we're wasting our time
1:47:08
obsessing about what children eat in schools if we spend no time at all looking at the question of physical exercise
1:47:13
and that is the second question. Why do we never hear politicians
1:47:18
talking about this problem. Is it because it's been fixed? 03, 45, 60, 60, 973
1:47:25
Or is it because they've completely dropped the ball? They've completely missed the boat
1:47:30
There'll be some obvious contributions to this conversation. The selling off of playing fields
1:47:35
has probably had a massive impact upon how much formal sport you can do at school
1:47:39
in the afternoons. Again, back to my privilege, my school had an 18-hole golf course
1:47:46
would you believe, which reputedly had one of the finest magic mushroom crops
1:47:50
in the whole of the north of England but I wouldn't know anything about that, obviously. But we had like 20 tennis courts
1:47:55
an 18-half golf course, 50 rugby pitches. You couldn't not do sport at a school like mine
1:48:01
but what's it like at a normal school? What is it actually like
1:48:05
And if that's true, if it is down to the fact that the playing fields have been sold off
1:48:09
then the answer to the question of what does your child actually do
1:48:13
when it comes to physical exercise becomes even more important. So why
1:48:19
Why do we never hear about the other side of the coin
1:48:24
Every conversation I've ever heard about obesity in children and in adults
1:48:28
involves observations about what you eat and what you do. And yet when we talk about children, when we talk about schools
1:48:36
we go right back to the day of the turkey twizzler. There's no Jamie Oliver for exercise, is there
1:48:46
Why? 0345 6060 973. Why is a conversation about children exercising one that I'm not sure I've ever had
1:48:56
and I'm not sure I've ever heard? Hit the numbers now. You will get through
1:49:01
Of course, if I am completely wrong and I have just spent 10 minutes making a complete fool of myself
1:49:06
then please, you need to ring in and put me out of my misery. But I think we might have just accidentally
1:49:10
stumbled into something rather significant. It's 12.16. James O'Brien on LBC. I mean, I suppose Joe Wicks is a kind of Jamie Oliver for exercise
1:49:21
But I don't know what impact he or indeed anybody else is having in actual schools
1:49:27
So, two questions. Number one, what is exercise in schools like these days
1:49:32
Because we spend all our time talking about food and none of our time talking about exercise
1:49:38
And then number two, why do you think that is? Why has this situation developed, evolved, blown up
1:49:45
And then crucially, and in some ways the most interesting question of all
1:49:49
if you're like at an inner city school with no playing fields
1:49:54
or any real outdoor space to speak of, and it's not a private school where you will be bused to some nearby meadows
1:50:04
I mean, who's got the worst case example here? Who hand on heart can say that their child does next to nothing
1:50:11
when it comes to physical exertion on a weekly basis? Let's start in Dudley. Nick's there. Nick, what would you like to say
1:50:18
Hi, James. So, in my 20s, I worked in primary schools. My last job was I exclusively did the PE in a prime school for children ages three to six
1:50:29
And I was lucky in that the headteacher there was an ex-woology league professional. So, he saw the value in having somebody specialised to do that role
1:50:37
And that would be what it came down to. So, a less engaged headteacher. It's the same with food, actually, isn't it
1:50:43
some headmasters and headmistresses really care about the diet and others don't yeah i think so i
1:50:48
think um for instance if he left and a new head had come in he was into the arts and music and
1:50:54
creativity and stuff like that i might have been a bit of a luxury item and they might have looked to move me into a slightly different role at the school um my my experience is that ultimately the
1:51:03
the days of jumpers for goal posts and kids making up their own games has gone what they will do is
1:51:09
attend an organised session where there's a coach, there's a venue, and your parents
1:51:13
are typically paying to attend it. So, my son's five, he goes to a football
1:51:19
class on a Saturday, he's a bit young to be factored into this
1:51:23
conversation, jumps to a goalpost and such, but that's sort of what people
1:51:27
what kids will do now, go on other days where they will go off at the park for free hours and play football with a mate
1:51:31
Are you sure? I think so, yeah. My children are three and five
1:51:35
I go to the park a lot on the play area with them. And you never see
1:51:38
older kids having a kicker no children ages 8 to 15 don't see them on the playground
1:51:45
we've got a bit there's one near me there's a nice little playground
1:51:49
and there is a kind of fenced in basketball court with goals so you can play footy or you can
1:51:55
play basketball but I don't think you're allowed in there if you're over the age of 9
1:51:59
or 10 so I don't see teenagers kicking a ball around anywhere near
1:52:03
me and there's a few Sunday morning pitches as well I think part of it is a safety thing as well
1:52:08
You know, people don't want their kids going half a mile down the road to the park now, which is a shame, but I understand that
1:52:14
But that's the world we've moved into now. It has to be organised. And part of it is primary school teachers are typically..
1:52:24
Sorry I going to use some slight What the word Stereotypes here Typically you got more women doing it Typically you got less women engaged in sports And typically your PGCE which is the one teacher training that you do
1:52:35
to become a primary school teacher, you get about half a day or a day of teaching PE
1:52:40
It is very... I think that's changing. I think your generalisation probably holds true
1:52:45
I am a little bit, yes. But my daughter's PE teacher at a state primary school
1:52:49
was Georgia Hunter Bell's mum. So they did all right. but it's also very
1:52:54
but you're also very it's a bit of a look at the draw
1:52:58
so for instance the last school I worked at I got an art teacher who was happy to use a kiln
1:53:02
so the school had got a kiln admitted this kiln was 30 years old
1:53:05
so there's nothing centralised is what you're saying there's nothing really curriculum based
1:53:09
or there's no requirements or necessities how feasible do you think it is for a child in a British state school today
1:53:15
to do next to no exercise whatsoever next to none difficult but it's the quality of what you get
1:53:23
I mean, like I said, they will have a PE lesson but it's what they're doing in it
1:53:27
But that's once a week, right? Yes, I think it is. Once a week
1:53:31
One hour a week. One hour a week isn't going to touch the sides of lifestyle improvement
1:53:37
in the way that we talk about food and school dinners. Nick, thank you. Owen's not too far away from you in Leicester
1:53:43
Owen, what would you like to say? So, yeah, I'm a 21-year-old and so I'm relatively recent in secondary school
1:53:49
A lot more recent than me, mate. But yeah, no, you're spot on
1:53:54
Really? We probably have about two hours of PE a week, most weeks throughout like year seven to 11
1:54:01
Most of the time they're probably, the PE teacher would just let us do football
1:54:06
We have big years, probably about over 100 kids in a year. So it'd be split into different sets
1:54:12
So I was in set one, I was quite a sporty kid and I ended up, and our football was quite
1:54:17
it was quite fun and competitive, but then we could see on the other pitch, set two
1:54:22
I mean, there's just people just stood about in the corners, like the teachers would try and get them to play, but they just..
1:54:28
I think that was probably always true. Do you feel that you had the opportunity to do enough exercise
1:54:33
to have a meaningful impact on your health if you wanted? Not at school. No
1:54:37
So I was quite sport, so I played cricket at the weekends and midweek, but I was outside of school
1:54:43
We never have the facility or the money to keep a cricket pitch going at state school
1:54:48
at lunch times and break times. We did have a big field, but we weren't allowed to use it
1:54:55
Do you know why? Just because it would involve staff having to come out and be on duty
1:55:00
Yeah. It's a very bleak picture that you paint, and it's so completely different from the experiences of people at feed-bally schools
1:55:07
It's breathtakingly different. So I'm told there's a two-hour-a-week requirement, but as you say, and as Nick said in Dudley
1:55:15
opting out of that is going to be quite straightforward for people either formally or informally
1:55:21
and it's going to be very much dependent on the school and the regime in the school
1:55:26
on A, how seriously that is taken and B, how robust it is
1:55:30
where would you do PE? So we had sports halls You did have a sports hall
1:55:37
because I'm thinking about schools that don't Yeah, I mean that And you've heard a million conversations
1:55:45
about healthy eating and very, very, very few conversations about healthy behaviours
1:55:50
Spot on, yeah. extraordinary. We were lucky to have an AstroTurf football pitch
1:55:55
which is probably why we played a lot of football, because we could play it all year round. So that was lucky in that sense, but it was quite a small one
1:56:04
You could only ever have one year at a time. And again, they wouldn't let us on it at break or lunch times
1:56:09
And until these conversations are becoming more commonplace, the pressure upon school leadership
1:56:14
organisations, school leadership teams is not going to be exerted at all
1:56:21
Thank you Owen. This is from one of my longest standing contributors
1:56:25
Corpsey. You may not know this about him. I'm an international, in fact
1:56:29
such a long standing contributor that I used to read out his messages to the studio before social
1:56:33
media existed. There you go. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it
1:56:37
I, he writes, I'm an internationally renowned sword fighting instructor And my relationship with exercise was destroyed by PE teachers
1:56:46
It took decades to rebuild it, and I'm not unique. Pretty much every adult age between 18 and 50 that I've spoken to
1:56:52
has had a similar experience. I take your point, actually. But that's why I wondered about break time
1:56:59
as Owen touched upon the idea. And Nick said this doesn't happen anymore
1:57:02
You'd go back in after break absolutely exhausted. Another word on what's happening at fee-paying schools, by the way
1:57:09
because it is extraordinary how little we know about each other. You're saying, but when did you do all this sport
1:57:14
If school finishes at 3.30, we'd do sport, and then we'd have more lessons
1:57:18
and school would finish at 6 o'clock at my school. You sort of go, well, oh, crikey
1:57:23
So you would have an hour and a half of sport, or an hour of sport
1:57:28
and then you'd go back and have more lessons afterwards. And, you know, you wonder why the results
1:57:34
both on the sports field and indeed in the exam hall, are so different. David's in greys
1:57:39
David, what would you like to say? Daniel even. Daniel's in grey
1:57:42
Sorry, what would you like to say? There we are. I have a young son
1:57:48
He's two and a half years old. He goes to the nursery. And he does an outdoor session every day
1:57:56
It's encouraged. That's what we get. We get photos sent through. It's lovely. But the thing that all the teachers
1:58:02
and all the people working there do remind us, all the parents, is they've got to be doing things after school
1:58:08
You know? But we never had to worry about that when we were kids. We'd do it anyway
1:58:12
I can't remember my mum ever saying to me, go out and play football. It would be the opposite. She'd say, come in and do your homework
1:58:18
Absolutely, and that is the thing. But obviously, times change. Yeah. And sometimes, as parents, you know, we've got to go
1:58:24
well, that's what our parents did, but maybe that doesn't work for today. I mean, I live in a flat with my son and my partner
1:58:30
but luckily enough, we're privileged enough to have two massive playing parks nearby
1:58:35
a lovely park for him to go and play on, and his grandparents have lovely gardens
1:58:40
And again, whether it's 30 minutes or an hour, we get him out there every single day
1:58:46
And as I say, I'm a young person myself. I understand the temptation to put the telly on
1:58:53
give the kid the phone, play a video game myself, even myself. You've got to send your kid out
1:59:00
You've got to send your kid out and you've got to let them play. Don't spend that energy there. What about when you're not there, as he gets a little older
1:59:06
well you know this is the thing if you encourage them early
1:59:10
in terms of letting children go out unsupervised because I think that's probably a large
1:59:15
part of the conversation that we're not having is that most parents these days would rather
1:59:19
their child stayed at home playing a video game because they are rightly or wrongly
1:59:23
persuaded that the outside world is a dangerous and terrifying place and it is and that is the truth
1:59:29
it's no more dangerous and terrifying than it was when we were kids and that's just it but we need to have bravery
1:59:35
You know, and I'm getting to be a bit brave. You need to look at that. Yeah, alright, thank you
1:59:39
28th time, just cracking on. I want to squeeze in one more. Georgie's in Bishop's Thoughtford. Georgie, what would you like to say
1:59:44
Oh, hi James. Hello. So, I work in fitness, so I'm a fitness trainer, and I have a business called The Move Nest
1:59:52
and it's a fitness service provider where we go into schools, care homes, we work for charities
1:59:58
So, we do... Exercise, because our motto is exercise is for everyone
2:00:03
What do you do in school? What would your typical relationship with a school be
2:00:09
And why do they need you to come in? Why is there not something already happening on the curriculum
2:00:12
or in the school system? Yeah, I think, so the schools that I work with
2:00:18
they're very about, like, they want the variety, you know, of exercise, of sports to encourage, like, the children
2:00:27
to find something that may take an interest in them. And are these state schools
2:00:33
These are just normal schools. We have gone to private schools as well
2:00:38
And sometimes we do bigger events outside the schools as well. So I work alongside with charities who will put advertisements
2:00:49
to say, hey, we've got this going on. And then the families can come along
2:00:53
whether it's a small donation or a fee. And our message is really that we don't try and over-push it about the physical side
2:01:02
but we want it so it's like, you know, good for your sleep, like exercise is good for your sleep, good for socialising
2:01:08
So we try and push that message across. I like that. Yeah, and I mean, good luck to you
2:01:14
Over-drumming it. Good luck to you, but it should be happening in the classrooms anyway, shouldn't it
2:01:18
And I mean that, good luck to you, but you shouldn't need outside contractors coming in
2:01:23
teaching children the importance of looking after themselves physically, especially when and i'm really struck by this the the amount of attention that we pay to the
2:01:31
other side of the same coin that sort of health and fitness coin when it comes to diet is
2:01:35
off the charts and and it hasn't worked we've been talking about it just on this program for
2:01:40
it feels like forever and it's still in crisis you know i'm still reading about deep fried food and
2:01:45
kids living on pizza and stuff like that and and lazily i know there's a lot more to health and
2:01:50
fit to diet than obesity but the more children are running around the more energy they're
2:01:55
expend and the more energy they burn so in many ways the healthier they will be georgie thank you
2:02:02
it's half past 12 you are listening to james o'brien on lbc up next i'm going to introduce you
2:02:07
to anthony scaramucci um briefly of course a member of donald trump's inner circle subsequently a
2:02:15
um a great figure on the political podcast um stage but but a fascinating man for a whole
2:02:22
bunch of reasons not least is his life story which is um pretty close to the american dream
2:02:28
12 30 is the time amelia cox has your headlines james o'brien on lbc it's an overused phrase i
2:02:34
don't know that it applies here possibly a man who needs no introduction anthony scaramucci what's
2:02:40
the first thing people think of when they hear your name oh i don't know it's a good question
2:02:44
i don't know like they handsome and swall i don't know i don't know probably failed white
2:02:49
House Communications Director? Well, that's what... Fired by Donald Trump, maybe, is what they think
2:02:53
You write yourself, I became famous as an epic failure in your new book
2:02:57
All the Wrong Moves. It's quite self-deprecating, that. Because, you know, I don't know that in the context
2:03:03
of the court of Donald Trump, getting chucked out is necessarily a badge of dishonor
2:03:09
Well, I mean, listen, as I write in the book, we were fighting over things
2:03:13
that he wanted to do that I didn't want to do. I didn't think they were appropriate. You know, I think my allegiance
2:03:19
in friendship with General Kelly, who actually fired me, I think is a
2:03:23
testament that him and I were all trying to do the right thing at a time when someone was trying to
2:03:27
do some very wrong things. So, yeah, I mean, I wear it today
2:03:31
as a badge of honor, but I will tell you that was a rough period of time in my life. But you've turned it into something rather different
2:03:36
I mean, you made a significant sum of money as trading in an investment firm
2:03:43
That was prior to the White House. That's what I mean. But then you chose to go into..
2:03:48
I had a nice career going on. That's what I'm saying. I had to mess it up. I had to put myself into the Trump woodchipper and mess it all up
2:03:54
But it's all good. I mean, I still have my company and I've been able to, in a weird way
2:03:59
it's given me a platform to talk to people like you about some of the things that are going wrong in the country that we need to fix
2:04:05
How much of what you've concluded, and you talk about the three catastrophic decisions
2:04:09
that have sort of led to much of the current malaise, and then at the end of the book you offer up a prescription
2:04:15
five key areas in which things can be improved. And you were only in the White House for 11 days, I think, in total
2:04:23
How significant was that brief experience to the thesis that you develop in the new book
2:04:28
Well, I mean, the White House, in many ways, was very significant
2:04:33
I had spent 30 years as a political fundraiser, a presidential fundraiser on the side of the Republicans
2:04:38
I had known a lot of politicians. But I think even though it was a very short period of time
2:04:43
I got to see the fireworks. You know, Trump said something to me inside the White House
2:04:49
We were sitting having lunch in the study off the Oval Office. This happened on a Wednesday
2:04:54
I know that because I was only there for one Wednesday. So I know it was a Wednesday. We were sitting there and he said to me, man, this is a rough town
2:05:01
He goes, I thought I was a billionaire, a real estate guy. He said, I thought we were a bunch of killers
2:05:06
He said, the assistants here will peck your eyeball out. They'll, like, stab you in the eye with an ice pick and drop it in their martini glass while they're talking to you
2:05:14
And he was right. It's a very rough town. The stakes are very different
2:05:19
I think people fight in a way in Washington. It's very different than Wall Street or business
2:05:25
And so, yes, it was very eye-opening. You know, I learned some rough lessons in Washington, got fired very quickly
2:05:33
At the time, I thought it was a travesty. but reflecting back on it, it probably saved my marriage
2:05:39
it probably saved my career and it gave me, as I said, a platform to talk about these things
2:05:44
And what's extraordinary perhaps, and this was first term Trump, which is very different from second term Trump
2:05:49
is how you got dispensed with. I understand what you say about your marriage and your job
2:05:56
because people never seem to dispense with him. Once people have been invited into the inner circle
2:06:03
however bad things get, And the second term Trump I would very casually use words like depraved and immoral but people never ever walk away from him Why is that They want to be significant They like power They susceptible to corruption They want to make money in that sort of feeding funnel alongside of him and his family
2:06:25
There's an aphrodisiac to that. You know, I called it Potomac fever. You know, you cross the river
2:06:31
Potomac and you think you're either going to help the country, which is something I thought, or you're going to be involved in something that would change things for the better
2:06:38
but there's another there's a darker side to potomac fever where you're like okay i'm here now
2:06:43
i can get a piece of this action along some somebody like donald trump when you say the
2:06:48
word depraved though it is so much worse than that it is so much darker than that uh because
2:06:55
there's a level of shamelessness to him and shamelessly they are literally overtly now
2:07:02
stealing money i mean they're literally selling pardons they're literally insider trading
2:07:08
with information that they get from the government. It is a scene that I think will long be remembered by Americans
2:07:17
if we can get a reformer to come in after him and clean this up
2:07:21
And it'll be one of the darker parts of our history. You know, he, I mean, just the whole war
2:07:26
who the hell knows why he started that war? We don't know all of the nefarious underworkings of the things that he does
2:07:33
I know this is British radio, so again, I'm giving my opinion, and not LBC's..
2:07:38
You don't have to do that. Oh, I don't have to do that. Well, a lot of what you said is factually correct
2:07:42
You can pay money to get early heads up. No, I feel like a million dollars
2:07:46
you get a pardon for anything, you know, from him. We were talking about people who've had pardons
2:07:50
off Donald Trump being involved in British politics today. But the reforming president is one of your solutions
2:07:56
Let's run through the three catastrophic decisions that you think explain why Donald Trump
2:08:01
was able to harness this populist... Yeah, so I think it's very important
2:08:06
for people to understand that we had things going in the right direction after the Berlin Wall came
2:08:11
down. I think it's very important for people to understand that we put guardrails on the Congress
2:08:15
George Herbert Walker Bush did that. President Bill Clinton adhered to it. By the end of the
2:08:20
1990s, we were running a budget surplus in the United States. We printed a $240 billion budget
2:08:26
surplus. But one of the problems was we allowed in 2001 China to enter the World Trade Organization
2:08:33
relatively unchecked. And so what do I mean by that, sir? We let them come in as an emerging market
2:08:39
They could protect their markets. They could sell into the West, the UK, the US, elsewhere
2:08:44
unfettered, without tariffs from us. But as they grew to the size of the economy of Germany
2:08:50
we needed to check them and start treating them like the UK or Germany
2:08:54
We allowed them to stay in emerging market status for too long
2:08:58
And it's hurt us geopolitically. It's also hurt our manufacturing industries. That was Clinton
2:09:04
That was Clinton. So, again, this is a book not about... It's not partisan at all
2:09:08
It's not partisan at all. In fact, if anything, if it was about my mistakes, there would have been a phone book, okay
2:09:13
So we just left it to some of the political leadership. You know, I don't sit here pedantically deriding people
2:09:19
I'm just trying to offer an objective observation of well-intended people on both sides
2:09:24
looking at a problem, thinking they were going to get a different outcome than the outcome that they got
2:09:29
So China takes a huge chunk out of U.S. industry, and that leaves a dispossessed workforce
2:09:33
Yeah, and we thought China was moving towards us. We thought it was the end of history
2:09:38
Fukuyama had said that. We thought they were going to have more of a democratic style of government
2:09:43
So we totally get this wrong. We go to war in Afghanistan, in Iraq with tax cuts
2:09:50
First time in our history that we do that. We usually increase taxes going into the war to afford the war
2:09:56
So we're paying for these wars on a credit card. And then last but not least
2:10:00
and probably the one that really ignites all the anger, is the bank bailout
2:10:05
What was the option? This is Obama bailing out Wall Street. Yes. And what was the alternative
2:10:10
What else could he have done? So I certainly think... To be fair, just to make your point, so you go Clinton, Bush, Obama
2:10:15
when you're looking at the three big things. Yeah, and I would just say in President Obama's
2:10:19
you know, again, very... President Obama in many ways is a really, really smart, savvy leader
2:10:24
TPP and the Iranian resolution to the nuclear situation both of those things should have stayed
2:10:30
in place but unfortunately the populism erased that but with Obama the mistake was we gave all the
2:10:36
money to the banks and so 5,000 bankers got one million dollar or more
2:10:42
annual bonuses at the end of the year of the great financial crisis
2:10:46
that was a travesty to the average worker Was he naive? Did he think the banks would put the money to different
2:10:52
use as opposed to doing what banks always do. Yeah, I don't think it was necessarily naive as
2:10:57
much as it was a very fast-moving, expedient thing. And remember, George Bush had set it up
2:11:03
It got passed in the lame duck session of Bush, and then it got kicked over to Obama. He implemented
2:11:09
it. In hindsight, again, this is the value of hindsight, we probably should have given
2:11:14
$750 billion to the banks and maybe $250 billion for mortgage relief or rental relief or credit
2:11:22
cord relief. We should have helped the lower and middle income people. They didn't get helped in
2:11:27
that situation. They lost their homes or they had to restructure their families. The bankers didn't
2:11:31
have to do that. And it caused the Occupy Wall Street movement. It caused the Tea Party movement
2:11:37
which were the precursor movements to MAGA. It's a brilliant thesis. And it begins, in fact
2:11:42
with the Occupy Wall Street, with the World Trade Organization protests in Seattle. But what
2:11:47
underpins it all, as we've spoken before, is your belated realization that the relationship between
2:11:54
labor and wealth was skewed. Yeah, that's a big part of the book. So I start the book out by
2:12:02
telling you how wrong I was about those protests. There I was at 35 years old in 1999 as a smug
2:12:09
Wall Streeter thinking that those protesters were off message. They were right. I got it wrong
2:12:15
They were right about what was going to happen to the country and then the second thing is if you divide if you look at the
2:12:23
distribution of economic rent between labor and capital It has to be an equipoise It got to go 60 to labor roughly 40 to capital And the great irony of that is the capital it 1 of the population that owns the capital They can have 40 of the economic rent
2:12:40
and labor is still generally aspirational and happy. But if you skew that and you take more from labor
2:12:46
which we are now, I mean, you know, we could look it up, you could chat GBT, but it's like 45-55
2:12:52
You've got a lot of anger. It's a steep graph. I mean, it's happened quickly and it's happened violently
2:12:56
It is, it is. But the money is being accrued, forgive me, by people like you
2:13:01
Hey, listen, I've done very well in this environment. But your investment fund is going to be making money out of the process we're describing here
2:13:10
I have done very well in the environment, but I don't want to live in a bob-wired security-perimetered McMansion while my fellow neighbors are suffering
2:13:20
I don't want to be that person, and so that's why I'm calling for reform
2:13:24
This is the great irony of what I'm saying. most people in my position keep their mouths shut
2:13:29
Yeah. And they write political donations to the candidates to get the tax cuts that they want
2:13:33
I respect that. What was the, was there a road to Damascus moment? Was there a kind of dawning
2:13:39
Well, certainly, no. Get your ass fired from the White House and humiliated by the tabloids
2:13:45
and ripped up by late night comedians and rolled in margarita salt
2:13:49
outside of the White House in Pennsylvania Avenue. You can have a road to Damascus moment
2:13:54
You've got to check yourself and your ego at the door. You got to look at the thing ytically and say
2:13:59
okay, what are we doing wrong? And the answer is the country does better
2:14:03
I believe the UK too. When lower and middle income people feel aspirational
2:14:08
and lower and middle income people feel that their kids are going to do better than themselves, then the whole country does better
2:14:14
You know, in the search for the trillionaire, these people have lost the plot
2:14:19
of what it means to be a noble rich person. Okay, it's fine to be rich
2:14:24
I'm all about unequal outcomes. If you're working hard and you're creating something, God bless you
2:14:29
But let's take care of the people. We have food insecurity in the United States
2:14:34
I can't speak for the UK. Yeah, we have it here. We have food banks. We've got 1.2 million people in the city of New York
2:14:39
I sit on the board of City Harvest, our largest food bank. We've got 1.2 million people in the city of New York that are food insecure
2:14:45
in arguably one of the wealthiest countries in the history of mankind
2:14:49
We have to solve for that. We can't sit here idly counting our money
2:14:55
So regulation? It's a combination of things. It's getting the money out of the politics
2:15:04
It's ending what's called Citizen United. For your listeners, that's basically a Supreme Court decision 16 years ago
2:15:10
that said we could put unlimited amount of money into politics. We have to end that
2:15:14
I mean, that's created a very bad circuit at the top of the government
2:15:19
where big food, big pharma, big business are getting everything they want
2:15:23
We're putting fertilizer in our children's cereal. We're putting chlorine in our chicken
2:15:29
because the manufacturers don't want to fix the sanitary conditions at the front end
2:15:34
because that's too expensive for them to do. So they want to chlorinate the chicken at the back end
2:15:39
Okay, this is the stuff that's going on that we need to stop. And so there's a combination of things
2:15:44
The tax code, we've got to figure that out. You need more earned income tax credits for lower and middle income people so that they can meet the affordability and living standards
2:15:54
There's a whole host of different things. You've got to end the gerrymandering. You've got a situation now where the politicians are picking the voters as opposed to the voters picking the politicians
2:16:03
It's not a question of tinkering with the current system then. It's a question of recalibrating an awful lot of it
2:16:09
I think it's a need of reform. Remember, as I point out in the book, we haven't had a constitutional �
2:16:14
The Constitution's been amended 27 times in 237 years. That's roughly one time every eight years
2:16:21
We haven't had one in 33 years. We need more amendments to that document
2:16:26
And you suggest three very specifically that you've just gone through now. Why did you say that leaving the White House so quickly probably saved your marriage
2:16:34
Well, I mean, my wife had, let's talk the facts here. My wife had filed for divorce on me
2:16:38
She was super pissed at me. She probably hates Trump almost as much as Melania hates him
2:16:42
which is like the highest threshold of hatred of Trump. And she filed for divorce
2:16:49
I then missed the birth of my son, which is not well-remembered maybe here
2:16:53
but it's well-remembered by me. I mean, it was all over the tabloids. I was in the West Virginian Boy Scout meeting with Trump
2:17:01
He was giving a big speech to this Boy Scout troop. There's a 60-mile no-fly zone around Air Force One
2:17:07
I couldn't get back to New York if I even tried. She was supposed to give birth in August
2:17:13
She gave birth prematurely, probably due to the stress of the situation. And so I got fired unceremoniously
2:17:21
If you were talking about a bad day, O'Brien, let me tell you something, okay? As long as it's not cancer, I'm sure I topped you
2:17:26
I got fired. My wife had filed for divorce. I got fired from the White House
2:17:32
People were leaving the business that I had started, and I was getting lit up by all of the news media
2:17:38
It was a pretty bad day. It was a bad day. Okay, so I had to rebuild myself from there
2:17:41
I had to go back and fix my marriage, which thankfully I did. We're still, it's nine years later, we're still together, thankfully
2:17:48
I mean, it's a big message to people. Don't make your relationships disposable. But it also gave me, like I said, a platform to write a book like this
2:17:55
do a podcast, explain to people what's going on from a vantage point of somebody that's seen the whole spectrum
2:18:01
And you obviously enjoy it as well. I mean, you're a great communicator, both in print
2:18:04
and people will have heard you on podcasts. why didn't you just slink, if that's the right word
2:18:14
or slip back into obscurity? Great question. So, I am named after a man
2:18:21
His name is Anthony DeFeo. He would be my mother's oldest brother
2:18:25
Okay, he was born in 1924, and his high school education was truncated
2:18:32
He was supposed to graduate in June of 1943. He graduated in March
2:18:37
so that he could get shipped to the United Kingdom to train for the Normandy invasion
2:18:41
And he landed on Omaha Beach on June 6, 1944, and he fought for freedom liberation democracy Got off the beach but got wounded on the way to Paris He was in an army field hospital for three months and then he stayed in the war He could have got
2:18:59
discharged. He continued to fight. He met Truman in Potsdam. He's my mother's oldest brother. I am
2:19:05
his namesake. And if he could go to war and fight for freedom and fight for the democracy
2:19:11
I can use my voice and my wisdom and my life experience to tell people how dangerous things are right now and what we need to do to fix it
2:19:21
And also we have a lot of low information voters in the United States. We need to tell them what happened
2:19:27
They know something is wrong. This is what happened. This is how we got into the situation
2:19:32
And these are ideas that we could use to potentially fix it
2:19:36
And so that's the reason. I don't want to be the slinking guy with the money hanging out
2:19:42
How much good is that going to do to the body politic or to my fellow citizens or to the neighborhood and the people I grew up with
2:19:49
That's not going to help anybody. Final question. You mentioned the danger and you've covered a lot of it
2:19:55
But, I mean, in the context of the midterms, how fragile do you think democracy itself might be in the states at the moment
2:20:01
Well, in the midterms, listen, the electoral process is still very decentralized
2:20:05
He will dent it. He'll do everything he can to compromise it. But because it's so decentralized, it'll be unlikely compromise
2:20:12
And I would say, think of Viktor Orban for a moment. He held power for 16 years, much smaller country
2:20:18
And he still lost power because there was this tsunami of voting that was decidedly against him
2:20:25
And they knocked him out of power. And if you look at the approval ratings for Trump right now, they're below where Richard Nixon was two days before he resigned from the presidency
2:20:34
So this is the lowest approval rating in modern history. So ironically, because of the way the Senate works, he may still win the Senate
2:20:42
Remember, the prediction marks are only 52% on the Democrats. But it's over 80% now that the Democrats will retake the House
2:20:49
I predict that they will. And that, even though he'll try as hard as he can through voter registration things and mail-in balloting and this type of stuff, I don't think he'll be able to stop that wave
2:21:02
Anthony, you mentioned Francis Fukuyama. I should say that he's my guest on this week's Full Disclosure podcast
2:21:06
And I know that we're getting you on there soon as well. He wrote a brand new book, by the way, which is a brilliant book
2:21:11
I recommend it to people. It's the same. And I'd also recommend this one, All the Wrong Moves by Anthony Scaramucci
2:21:17
How three catastrophic decisions and years of a word I can't say on the radio politics led to Trump
2:21:22
You guys love that word. And how we find a way out. We do love that word. We just can't say it on the radio
2:21:26
Anthony, it's good to see you. Thanks ever so much. Appreciate it. James O'Brien on LBC
2:21:30
chris porsche is the photographer responsible for a lovely new volume actually called london
2:21:37
calling and chris is with me now for the remaining minutes of the program um why why did you want to
2:21:43
put together a compendium of images of our capital city that portray it as the fantastic diverse
2:21:49
exciting dynamic place that you and i know it to be but many people are currently pretending not to
2:21:54
understand absolutely just firstly thank you so much for inviting me i really really appreciate it
2:21:59
I was actually bizarrely inspired by Trump, of all people. In December 25, he was slagging off London
2:22:04
denigrating the most terrible, crime-infested, horrible people like Merkin. And I thought, how dare he? It's my most favourite city in the world
2:22:13
And I felt far safer than I ever did when I did my trips across America when I was throwing them with knives and mash gun shootings while I was there
2:22:20
But, yeah, that's one of the reasons. But I wanted to show the positive side of London as well
2:22:25
There's water and all, but it's an incredibly uplifting book, I think
2:22:29
and it'll make you smile. What do you do, Chris? Do you just walk around with your camera waiting for a moment to present itself
2:22:35
Because, I mean, it's mostly people that you photograph, isn't it? But, of course, the context and the background speak volumes
2:22:42
So whether it's, you know, a builder giving you a sort of cheeky grin
2:22:45
as he lugs a pile of rubble around, or it's a bride getting into her car
2:22:49
or some people with almost sort of, I mean, incredible, these could be oil paintings looking at you through the window of a bus
2:22:57
Do you know when you've got a shot, or do you have to wait until the pictures have been developed
2:23:02
before you know whether or not you've got it? Sometimes. Generally I don't. It's very spontaneous
2:23:06
I walked for hundreds of miles as I did there and deleted the vast majority, deleted a thousand
2:23:12
and just try and put the very best in there. I hope I've chosen wisely
2:23:17
I look for characters, people who stand out from the crowd. How can you take those iconic buildings
2:23:21
that have been photographed billions of times before in a different way. And the only way I can do it is through the people
2:23:26
Sometimes I engage with people and other times, surely candid. So you've got big barristers walking down the street
2:23:32
in full robes, and then you've got protesters being carried away. I don't want to say old
2:23:39
but a mature lady being carried away by police at a protest in defence of the people of Gaza
2:23:47
Stand up to racism, defend our NHS, and then the Chelsea pensioners on and on
2:23:51
I love it. You know I love it, Because I wrote you a forward for it. Can I just say, James
2:23:56
they are the most profound and powerful words and I urge listeners to read them
2:24:00
No, absolutely not. You can't because we're too busy urging people to actually get hold of a copy
2:24:04
I mean, where do you envision it sitting? Does it go on people's coffee tables? Absolutely
2:24:09
I think it belongs to London. It's just getting here because I live in Peterborough and it'd be great if I can..
2:24:14
Have you got one for Sheila? Sorry? Oh, yeah. Have we got one for Sheila
2:24:18
Well, a book. I did notice a little pie outside. Is she in it? Is Sheila in it
2:24:21
I'll be honest. I might be. I bought six coffees that were too heavy to carry on the two
2:24:26
It is hefty. I'll buy a coffee. We'll get you one. And it's beautifully produced as well
2:24:31
London Calling by Chris Porsche, which is spelt P-O-R-S-Z. I mention that because you can either go to his website
2:24:38
and get hold of a copy there, or you can just Google London Calling and book
2:24:44
and then find it there as well. Available wherever it's available. but that name once again, Chris Porsche P-O-R-S-Z
2:24:52
so the website would be chrisporsche.com Good luck with it mate and congratulations
2:24:56
Really appreciate it, very kind of you Very proud to be in it, it is just coming up
2:25:00
to one o'clock and that's it for today James O'Brien on LBC
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