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Piers Morgan has claimed the Royal Family are 'spitting blood' over claims made in Charles Spencer's new memoir.
Lewis Goodall joins Shelagh Fogarty to discuss the latest royal row and whether the monarchy's long-standing strategy in the face of criticism is still the right approach.
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
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0:00
Lewis Goodall is with me in the studio, presenter of Sundays with Lewis Goodall and co-host of Global's podcast, The News Agents, of course
0:08
You are the, what would I call it, the cherry on the cake of my conversations about the Charles Spencer book
0:15
I always want to be the cherry. Are you popping my cherry? No, I'm not going to say that
0:19
The cherry on my cake, the story's kind of gone away as a day-to-day story
0:24
Yes, but you still want to talk about it. I never tire of it. As you know, I'm basically just your sort of like mannequin or sort of puppet
0:31
You're here to facilitate my joy. I will play to your tunes. My joy. So you have been speaking to Andrew Lowney
0:37
who, in case anyone's forgotten, is the man who wrote the most timely published book on the planet
0:43
the book about the then Prince Andrew or the former Prince Andrew. Yes, indeed
0:46
What's he been saying about this book? Well, it's very interesting. I mean, Andrew Lowney, I think, is unusual among royal writers
0:55
and biographers and commentators in that I think it is fair to say
0:59
that he is not a paid-up member of the royal squad. He's not a courtier
1:04
He's not someone who seeks to do what so many commentators, royal commentators, do
1:10
which is simply reflect the palace in the best possible light and best possible way
1:15
I would say that, and of course he has his detractors, but I would say that the reason he stands out
1:20
is because he uses a journalistic and historian's lens apply to the royal family in the same way
1:28
that a journalistic lens will be applied to any other. The royal family often doesn't have that
1:32
because it's deeply deferential. Anyway, as you say, he wrote that extraordinary book
1:36
about formerly the Duke of York and the Duchess of York. And he, I was speaking to him for the news agents
1:44
no one is better connected, really, impeccably connected across the royal household. And intriguingly, Sheila, I think he agrees with both you and I
1:51
about who might be telling the truth in this affair. Yes I do
1:57
I think broadly speaking I've only read half the book but I mean broadly speaking
2:00
I think he's telling the truth that this was a good opportunity to challenge the narrative
2:04
that we've been fed for the last 30 years and I think that's what he wanted to do I think the problem is
2:09
he's been let down by some sloppy editing and poor legal work and so he has to take responsibility
2:14
for the mistakes he's made but those should have been picked up and so I think the sad thing is
2:20
that the message that he had is kind of been diluted and indeed in some ways has been destroyed
2:25
by the fact that he has made some very silly mistakes in the book
2:30
I suppose the natural thing to ask would be, what's the point of it
2:35
I mean, it's so long ago. I mean, of course he's got the right to write a book about his sister if he wishes
2:40
but what's the point of it all? Well, his argument is there's going to be a lot coming out next year for the anniversary
2:45
I mean, I know dozens of books lined up, television programmes, and, you know, everyone wants to kind of shape the historical record
2:52
He wants to get his version of Vence out before, I think, as he honestly said, before the TV programmes and the books, in which he has no control, bring out a slightly different version
3:03
That seems to me a perfectly genuine reason. I mean, after all, that's why politicians and generals write their memoirs
3:08
yeah and you know the reason i was inclined to agree or believe sorry charles spencer
3:16
is i don't think it necessarily puts the king in an absolutely brutal light i think the complex
3:25
relationship between charles windsor and diana was so obvious and intense and bitter by the end
3:32
you know um i know they were on better terms at the time of her death i got a feeling they didn get on No they did not get on I got a feeling they didn get on And I think it perfectly possible for the king to have been devastated at the horror of such a young death and the loss of his boy mother
3:46
and also see very clearly the route it opened up for him
3:50
Well, one thing you can say about the king is that he had a single-minded focus on achieving one objective
3:58
throughout much of his time as Prince of Wales. To marry Camilla Parker Bowles. Camilla Parker Bowles, something he..
4:03
And that's a long spectrum, because initially it was that she would be his mistress, and then it would be his wife
4:10
and then that she would be Queen Consul, and then that she would just be the Queen, right? And in the end, Charles got everything that he wanted
4:15
and he is an intelligent man, he's clearly a political man, and he would not be human if there was not part of his brain
4:24
that realised, frankly and bluntly, that as a result of the tragedy of what happened
4:28
and no one would believe he wanted that to happen. No, I don't believe that. horse, not for a second
4:33
But as you say, Sheila, that passage became easy, because as long as Diana
4:37
was alive, she was basically an alternative core and a reminder. And this is what
4:41
I was talking about with Andrew Lowney there. I think that, you know, next year, the 30th
4:45
anniversary of Diana's death, it's going to be difficult for the palace, because you will have all of those retrospected
4:50
And every day that Diana still haunting him and them from beyond the grave, her power
4:55
her charisma, the fact that she is now an icon and immortalised as a result of her
5:01
tragic early not quite forgotten not readily not quite forgotten so readily every time she's in the
5:06
news which is all the time it must be a reminder to the king and the palace and a reminder of what
5:12
camilla used to be which it used to be the king's mistress not his wife and as she is known today
5:18
and receives a very favorable press and look you know on this question of the dinarshi one of the
5:23
things that's amused me is the number of very actually sometimes commentators journalists you
5:28
name it, who I've heard sort of bloviate in the last couple of days
5:32
Well, the palace has given a vehement denial. This is very, very unusual
5:35
They haven't. They haven't. As Spencer pointed out in his conversations. They've denied nothing
5:40
They've denied nothing. All they've done is suggest that he has a slightly unstable frame of mind
5:45
Now, maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. Which they did to Diana. Which they did to Diana and which unnamed saucy did to Virginia Giffray, right
5:51
I mean, like, this is something that the palace does and people don't like talking about it
5:55
and people get squeamish about it. But the way the palace does its PR, something else I've talked about with Andrew Lowney, is they are good at planting a seed
6:03
And this was, I mean, you know, this was basically put through a sort of loud hailer
6:07
But this is basically how the palace operates. And just because we don't apply that scrutiny to it in the same way that we would with other political institutions
6:16
it sort of feels a bit sort of forbidden to say it or it feels sort of wrong to say it. I'm just amazed in this
6:21
I'm just amazed in this story. and I think it does speak to the deference still
6:26
with which the king is treated and the palace is treated, the number of people who seem absolutely certain
6:31
that they knew, no, that he would never have said it. Often, again, people sort of bloviating
6:36
you've probably only met him twice, what I know of the king, what I know. Very often these people have probably spoken to him
6:40
for the grand total of about ten seconds, and yet they seem absolutely certain
6:44
about what he would say and what he wouldn't. And also, I've got time for the king, of course I have
6:48
You know, I think, let's not forget that great... Well, in a family of thickos, he's clearly
6:54
on the more intelligent side. Your view, not mine. I think it's beyond the speech
6:59
But I know he didn't handwrite it himself, but the delivery and everything of his speech in Congress
7:03
was impressive, wasn't it? Absolutely. Remember that moment? It was really good. And he's had a
7:10
distinguished career in public life Not an easy task I mean to have that extraordinary apprenticeship for so long The length of time for all that time Which is also addressed in the book Indeed to be expected to be something and yet not to be something
7:24
A sort of British equivalent of being vice president, like his one constitutional... Forever. Forever. His one constitutional requirement is to have a pulse, or was to have a pulse, right
7:32
And he had to have that. And of course, I think the tragedy of the king is that, of course
7:36
we always knew that he would have a short reign, just by definition of when it came to him and the timing
7:41
sort of Edward VII type figure. And as Andrew Lowney said to me in that conversation
7:45
asking him, well, how do you think the king will be remembered, you know, whenever it comes
7:49
And he said, you know, ultimately his reign so far, it depends how long he reigns, of course
7:52
but so far it's been characterised by... Long may he. Of course, yeah, indeed
7:56
But it's been characterised by constant firefighting. And actually, the thing that's actually surprised me
8:01
this is a sort of slightly separate conversation, the thing that's surprised me, actually, about the reign of King Charles so far
8:06
has been the extent to which, you know, this is a man who has had a long apprenticeship
8:10
and there was endless briefing about how he wished to change the institution of the monarchy. I think it's striking how little he's changed it or attempted to change it
8:17
Now, maybe he feels that with everything going on, he just doesn't have the bandwidth
8:21
He's obviously ill and there's been lots of things. Or maybe that if it had come to him 10 years before or 15 years before
8:27
he'd have had the energy and the scope and the drive. And maybe the tragedy of Charles III in the end was that he became Charles III too late
8:34
You know, I often bring things back to the Pope. Look, there he is in France speaking at UNICEF
8:38
Well, there you go. In a way, Charles might end up being the Benedict. The Benedict the 16th? Yeah
8:44
He was after, well, yes, maybe, although, I mean, Benedict was there. What, you mean he might retire
8:48
He might abdicate? No, no, no, no, no, I don't mean that. He become Pope Emeritus. Although I did posit that some time ago as a possibility
8:52
but no, I don't think he will. No, I think he enjoys it too much. What I mean is the very long reign of Elizabeth
8:57
the very long papacy of John Paul II, the wise but belated papacy of Benedict
9:04
and the wise, let's say, wise but belated monarchy of Charles and then enter two new faces, fresh faces, younger faces
9:14
So that makes William Francis. That makes William Pope Leo. Oh, Pope Francis, actually, yes
9:19
George, George is Pope Leo on the basis of this extremely tortured ogy
9:23
I like my ogy. No, I know, and I'm here for it. Which monarch do you think is most like Pope Clement VII, would you say
9:30
I have no idea about Pope Clement VII. Oh, well, Clement VII had a really big run in with Henry VIII, of course
9:36
He was the one who denied... Oh, is he? Was he the one who denied? Indeed. He was the one who denied the divorce
9:40
Terrible gap in my history. I know. So actually, not a popular man in the English royal household
9:45
No. Or Pope Clem, as he was known to his friends. There have been no royal babies called Clem since then, have they
9:53
Or Clement? No, no, no. We haven't had a Pope Clement for some time, I think. No. Princess Clementine isn't going to happen any time soon, is she
9:59
We haven't done the Pope stuff for ages, have we? I bet you don't do this with John Sopel. Not really, no
10:03
No, no. Weird, that. I have great fun, though, with John and Emily
10:07
We have different relationships with one another. OK, fine. Yeah, all right
10:12
Are you angling for me to say you're my favourite? I wouldn't wish to presuppose
10:18
It's not going to happen. Oh, well, thank you, Aunty Sheila. Thank you. I was thinking about you calling me Aunty Sheila earlier
10:24
You can call me what you like. Just to bring it back to the book, because I think we should
10:29
Just to bring it back to the book. just to get out of this fantasy land. This idea that Piers Morgan is going to get it pulped
10:35
and the lawyers are going to be, you know, found incredibly wanting
10:38
I mean, they've been found wanting a little bit and the publishers too. But what I've noticed, actually
10:43
not that I've obsessed about this for a week, but what I've noticed is that the interviews..
10:47
Oh, get out more, Sheila. I know. The interviews that Spencer has given to British press is really different and more tame Is that right And then the interviews is given to foreign press yeah yeah Is that right
11:00
He's much more liberated in how far he's prepared to go and in the language that he uses and he's much more relaxed, it seems to me
11:08
I mean, look, I watched a full BBC interview the other day and I found him deeply credible
11:14
I did. And I do think that there is a... I do think he said he didn't make contemporaneous notes
11:20
OK. But he does say that he's told other people at the time
11:25
Including Richie Cave, the man. And there are some people, you know, and so if more of those come forward to affirm that
11:32
I think that's quite difficult for the king and difficult for the palace because they've been so vehement. But the thing is, is that ultimately
11:37
a lot of the press, and much of this ultimately still goes through the press
11:42
a lot of the press has decided what they think about this. and we all know there is also a relationship between the palace and the press and access and
11:49
all of those sorts of things and so i think in a way i mean look the piers morgan thing was clearly
11:54
quite disastrous in a way for and it's clearly what it's going to be remembered for not good
11:58
um and uh that's what it'll be remembered for but i think he was always going to be i don't think
12:05
the reception was there in the british press no and what really strikes me again i spoke about
12:10
this with with lani i mean no one needs to listen now because i've basically just repeated all of it But anyway, I said to talk about this with Lannan
12:15
and you'll remember this, Aunty Sheila, in a way that I won't. In a way that I won't
12:19
The little whippersnapper. One of the things that surprises me, I mean, go back to the 90s, right
12:24
The press on the royal family, the Queen accepted and Prince Philip accepted
12:29
but for all the generations below, it was voracious. Absolutely. Visceral. You know, every single day, negative story
12:36
I'm actually amazed at the extent to which there has been a transformation
12:39
OK, for some, like Harry and Meghan, it's still there. But for the institution overall, it feels to be more deferential
12:46
not less deferential. I'm not quite sure why that is. It might be about declining readership
12:50
I suppose papers like the News of the World don't exist anymore and all that sort of stuff
12:54
But it really is striking. Is it because parts of the press were perhaps rightly called to heel
13:01
about some of the treatment of Diana and hacking? I think that's probably right. I think there was a correction
13:06
And it's an overcorrection. I think the pendulum swung, rightly so, because as you say
13:10
but it does feel like an over-correction or at least it feels as if
13:15
you know, I mean I always say there is not an institution there is not an institution I think in this country
13:21
that could have had the accusations and allegations made about a senior member of it
13:25
I'm talking about Andrew here and not committed to have any kind of internal investigation at all
13:31
I find that genuinely astonishing and the second thing I find more
13:35
astonishing Sheila is that no one seems to want one no one asks for one no one pressures for one yeah and i think that does speak to the kid gloves
13:44
with which the royal family it's an institution i'm not talking about individuals here i'm talking
13:48
about it institutionally it it as a political actor because that's what it is we love our
13:53
monarchy still as when i we what did i say we i mean the the wider population they they want it
13:58
the british public also don't like allegations of sexual abuse and i think would welcome that but
14:03
The palace hasn't offered it up either. They put out these secret statements of our thoughts with violence
14:11
the victims of violence against women and girls. Why don't they do something about it then and ask who knew what in the palace, when, if anything
14:18
But as far as we know, they've never even bothered. No book planned on that just yet
14:21
I look forward to five o'clock when the newsagents drops and we can hear that interview in full, that conversation in full
14:27
rather than interview. It's more of a conversation, isn't it, than an interview. With Lewis and Andrew Loney
14:32
It's 2.48
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