Up next in 10
In a new memoir about her life, Princess Diana's brother has claimed that King Charles was 'giddily elated' after her death, and said she would 'be forgotten soon enough.'
00:00 | Andrew Marr reacts to the book's claims and to Buckingham Palace's response.
03:26 | Royal biographer Robert Hardman says Earl Spencer's claims don't sound like King Charles he knows.
11:08 | Amanda Matta, TikTok's "No.1 royal commentator", explains why so many people across the world connected with Princess Diana.
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
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0:00
Please be kind. Be a little tolerant to me tonight, because I'm going to start with a personal reminiscence
0:09
The days after the death of Diana Princess of Wales in 1997 were the oddest by far of my 45 years as a journalist
0:19
I was editing a newspaper, and the whole country, or at least the heart of London, seemed to have gone bananas
0:26
Amidst the mass sobbing and the giant pyramids of dead flowers and the huge queues to sign books of condolence
0:34
hard-headed reporters came back telling me of Diana appearing as a vision
0:38
in paintings in St James's Palace. So, a collective hallucination, I suggested
0:46
No, they said, she's really appearing there. Later, attending her funeral service at Westminster Abbey
0:53
I find myself waiting to go in. In front of me were two men encased in leather boots with chains and flamboyant tunics
1:02
members of the household cavalry. Just behind me, two other men were also encased in loads of leather with chains and studs
1:12
and they were not members of the household cavalry. And I thought, this has never happened in British history before
1:18
Inside the abbey we sat and we listened to Earl Spencer's passionate speech about his dead sister
1:26
with its not very coded criticism of the royal family. And a strange sound came into the nave and grew louder and louder
1:37
It was applause from the crowds out in the streets. Now, these strange days have been summoned back by Earl Spencer's new book
1:45
in which he claims that after an argument with Prince Charles, now the king, he hissed at him down the phone
1:51
rest assured, we'll forget her soon enough. He accuses the king of going nuts and showing contempt for Diana's memory
2:01
Unusually, Buckingham Palace responded, saying that His Majesty is mindful that the pain of fraternal grief
2:07
can cloud reason, affect judgment and colour memory in ways others do not recognise even many years after such a loss
2:17
Or, to put it more briefly, right back at you. Now, does any of this matter
2:23
From the latest extracts of the book claiming that Charles sounded giddily elated
2:28
like a lottery winner on the night of Diana's death, it's pretty clear that Earl Spencer wants to do as much damage to the king as he humanly can
2:38
This is verbal homicide. But the words may just bounce off. Support for the monarchy before Diana's death was running at about 65%
2:47
and it's now around 54%. A decline, but not a dramatic one
2:53
Most people, I think, will see this as a sad row between two men who were bitterly hurt at the time and haven't healed
3:00
But I think something did change around then in the national mood, and it does matter
3:06
Partly thanks to the way Diana behaved herself, It was the death as well of the buttoned-up, stoical, never-complain atmosphere of post-war Britain
3:15
and the birth of a country, keener to be in touch with its feelings, readier to cry in public, more judgmental of those not joining in
3:23
and perhaps a bit more feminised. Let's talk first tonight about this with the King's biographer, Robert Hardman
3:30
author of a new book as well on Elizabeth II in private, in public, the inside story
3:36
Robert, thanks very much for joining us. Do you think this is basically an attempt by old Spencer to take down the king
3:44
Good evening, Andrew. And can I just say I was very moved by your recollections of those days because I was there too and I was in the Abbey And I mean yes it was just one of the extraordinary post moments
3:58
I don't think that Charles Spencer sat down and thought, right, I'm going to demolish the monarchy
4:05
I sense his last book about his childhood. I sense there's a bit of sort of perhaps personal therapy going on here
4:15
I think he's clearly got in his mind a sequence of events
4:21
The fact that the king came out, the palace came out so robustly and so swiftly yesterday
4:26
with a variation on the immortal line, recollections may vary. A slightly longer version of basically saying that that's not how the king remembers it
4:34
I think is significant. I think the king doesn't want this to be the settled narrative
4:41
because obviously Charles Bedza is his brother. This carries immense authority, this book
4:47
But I have to say, you know, we've just seen the new serial in, well, it will be coming out in Tomorrow's Mail
4:54
And it's an extraordinary read. It's the paper I write for. I declare an interest
4:58
It is an extraordinary read. But, you know, in there, you as a historian will know that there are sort of one or two glaring mistakes
5:05
I mean, he talks about how his father, Johnny Spencer, had a romantic interest with the Queen
5:12
And this was quashed. This happened when he was a quarry to the Queen and this was quashed by Lord Mountbatten
5:16
Well, he didn't become a quarry to the Queen until she was a very happily married mother of two
5:20
So I'm not buying that. So, you know, recollections, as I say, may vary, may vary
5:27
It's just that, you know, the choice of words, not just that telephone call, but the sense the quote about him being the king being giddily elated like a lottery winner when he heard about Dinah's death
5:39
Now, if that was true, he'd be a very nasty piece of work
5:43
It's a very, very vicious and very personal thing for one man to say about another
5:48
And I'm just I sort of feel there may well be more to come. Yes. I mean, look, the book doesn't come out till next week
5:56
The serialization continues. But as you say, I mean, if that was Prince Charles's immediate and heartfelt response
6:04
then I think that's not the king or the prince that I know and have followed and written about
6:11
all the rest over the years. I mean, you were there in the Abbey, as was I. What I distinctly remember
6:17
and the TV cameras had very, very limited access to the royal family that day
6:21
If you go back through the archive footage of that funeral, there was literally a couple of glimpses of the royal family
6:28
But you and I were sitting there, I don't know where you are, but I was on a gantry looking down on the royal family
6:33
throughout. And I had a bird's eye view. And Prince Charles was
6:37
unquestionably the one who was most moved. All the royal family, I mean, those
6:41
poor boys, I think, were in a sort of state of shock. But he really was visibly
6:45
moved throughout. The idea that he's somehow laced, lottery would, it doesn't sound like
6:51
the man that like you followed. But I mean, this is Spencer's words
7:01
You know, I mean, it's an extraordinary book and it's kickstarted a debate
7:06
But I don't think that we're going to see the dial move significantly on views on the monarchy
7:11
Cards on the table. I agree with you about the king. You know, I think he's a complicated person
7:17
We've all got flaws, but I don't think he's so cold, so chilly, so sort of self-interested as this suggests
7:24
I think the bigger question, in a sense, is around Diana's death
7:28
because it did seem to me, as a newspaper editor at the time
7:32
observing what was going on, that the country was in a period of extraordinary
7:36
as it were emotional change We gone from that post buttoned country that the Queen exemplified and we were becoming something in a sense more Mediterranean Did you feel that
7:49
Yeah, I do. I think that's a very good point, Andrew. I remember my old editor at the time
7:54
would often say that the post-war history of Britain is a feminine history, that post-war
8:00
Britain was essentially a matriarchy. So the four most important public figures of the latter half
8:04
the 20th century, where the Queen, the Queen Mother, Margaret Thatcher, the Princess of Wales
8:08
and there was unquestionably at that moment a change. One of the things that really sticks in
8:16
my mind is we'd become almost more sort of Catholic, possibly with a capital C in our
8:22
attitudes to mourning, to death, this idea of shrines, laying candles, laying flowers. That
8:27
hadn't happened before. It had started, it had actually begun with the public response to the
8:33
terrible tragedy at Hillsborough a few years earlier. But this was a form of public grief
8:41
that we really hadn't seen on this scale before nationally. And I think it did affect, you know
8:47
it did change the way we looked at, we react to emotional moments. People were, seemed to be
8:53
easier about weeping in public. I don't think it had quite the sort of seismic effect that some
8:59
people attributed to it, or indeed the change to the monarchy, because I will remember we had an
9:05
opinion poll exactly one year afterwards in The Telegraph, which I was then writing. And I remember
9:11
96% of the public said that they were not planning to mark the first anniversary of her death in any
9:17
way, which at the time I thought that did surprise me. So I think Britain sort of moved on. And
9:23
clearly the fact that her two boys were just so much a part of her and that she would have wanted
9:29
them to thrive. I think everyone wanted the best for them. So the monarchy did get over it. But yes
9:36
I mean, the change in how Britain felt about itself, I think that's a very valid point
9:44
And looking at the opinion polling over that period, as I say, it's not dramatic
9:48
but there is a downward curve in support. It's almost as if we've moved from being a country
9:54
awed or transfixed by the monarchy to bring a country happy to live alongside the monarchy or
10:00
with the monarchy yeah i i it's still an overwhelming majority i mean if you say 54
10:06
percent in favor of the monarchy it slightly depends how you frame the question um i mean
10:11
there's some very constant polling and people like you garb goes back over many years and
10:16
initially after the um death of the late queen the support for the monarchy actually sort of
10:21
briefly went up because, you know, people suddenly were sort of focused on it
10:25
Thought about it. Thought about it was the first time. Yeah, thought about it and why we have one and what it's for
10:30
And it's sort of hovered around the 60% mark, really, throughout the King's reign
10:35
I thought the most interesting period was in the first few months of his reign when
10:39
he was coming under pretty considerable and daily attack from various media projects
10:46
notably a new series of The Crown, then Harry's six-part Netflix series, then Harry's book Spare
10:51
There was 12 weeks of pretty much nonstop negative headlines, not negative
10:57
And the dial didn't move. Indeed. The polling stayed the same. I'm sure you wouldn't put it this way, Robert, but he's a tough old bird, I think
11:05
Thank you very much indeed for talking to LBC. And listening to that was Amanda Matter, TikTok's number one royal commentator
11:12
with 1.4 million followers, and she's host of the Off With Her Headlines podcast
11:19
Welcome to the show. Can I ask you first of all whether you think that these extraordinary comments by Earl Spencer directed very personally at the king are intended to kind of cut him off at the knees Absolutely And thank you for having me Listen Earl Spencer has made no secret the way he feels about the royal family
11:41
particularly where they had control over Diana's public image, a say in how she spent the last few years of her life
11:51
just feeling torn between these two worlds. And he has also been very vocal about Harry and William
11:57
saying the Spencers will support them. That was sort of the heart of this anecdote
12:02
that was revealed in this serialization as well, which I think is important to note
12:07
So listen, whether he is correctly recounting the words that then Prince Charles said or not
12:13
I do think he vehemently believes that he and the royals were at odds
12:19
in terms of Diana's legacy, how her mourning period was being handled
12:25
how plans were being developed, and how William and Harry's emotional well-being was being looked after
12:30
Now we can hear, I've been talking at the beginning of the show about the impact on British culture
12:36
But this is a story that echoes around the world. People like yourself help echo it around the world
12:42
Why do you think that even in its decline in popularity in the UK
12:47
the British monarchy is still so addictive outside Britain? I mean, Diana was a big part of that
12:54
The reason I became so interested in the royals was because my mother, who was an American school teacher, she's now a librarian
13:00
She had this affinity for Diana. She connected with her on a human level, an emotional level
13:06
So she was really the start, I think, of the British monarchy's current global influence
13:11
Obviously, that is still true today with Diana's fashion. It often trends on social media
13:17
But just speaking generally, we have nothing like the British monarchy here
13:21
I know, you know, our current political regime kind of aspires to monarchy, but that gets
13:27
caught up very, very quickly in partisan politics. It gets very fraught
13:31
You get into all these cultural arguments. The point of the British royal family, as I'm sure you know, is to be above all of that
13:38
They're supposed to be seen as nonpartisan, apolitical. So they're this institution that you can aspire to on a lot of different levels, whether it's
13:47
influence or just the glitz and the glamour, the razzle dazzle. without leaning into that other, you know, the cultural conversation side
13:57
Yeah. And of course, for a long time, you had Harry and Meghan living in the States
14:01
They're now back in the UK. How does a story like this affect your viewers and listeners
14:09
your supporters, people who follow you, particularly younger Americans? I mean, I'll just say it. A lot of Americans do still think of taking sides, whether that's Diana
14:20
or Harry and Meghan versus the monarchy. They're a bit more split on the Sussexes versus
14:26
if we want to call it, you know, a feud, versus the Windsors. But Diana is universally, I would say, loved
14:33
She's viewed as the wronged party. So, yeah, people... Can I ask you, since you jump in, what about King Charles
14:40
How's he viewed? I mean, a lot of the conversation about him
14:45
is still reflected back to this era, which took a long time for Charles to work through in terms of his public approval
14:52
And that only came about because of a sustained media campaign out of Clarence House to kind of raise his public approval ratings after this era
15:00
where he was painted as, you know, emotionally distant, not sympathetic at all to Diana's plight
15:07
And I'm saying this is just kind of the perception of him, but also culpable at the worst in her death on some level
15:15
So that is something that has been very hard for him to shake in terms of his image in the U.S
15:20
Amanda, thank you very, very much for helping us with this story tonight. Great to have you on the show
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