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Shelagh Fogarty reacts as the Palace hits back at Earl Spencer's allegation that King Charles said 'we'll forget' Diana following her death.
Spencer claimed the former Prince of Wales levelled a "stream of anger" at him after insisting that Diana would not have wanted Princes William and Harry, then aged 15 and 12, to walk in her funeral procession.
The claim has been strongly rebuked by Buckingham Palace, who have said Charles Spencer's grief of losing his sister had caused his memory of events to be distorted.
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0:00
I want to start today by talking about this royal row. War of words has broken out between the two
0:07
Charleses, Charles the King, Charles Rex, and Charles Earl Spencer, the brother of the late
0:13
Diana Princess of Wales. Who to believe, I suppose, is the central question, isn't it
0:21
I fall down, I mean, I'll elaborate on what I want to say in a minute, but I fall down
0:26
just about on the side of Charles Spencer, Earl Spencer. In as much as, obviously I wasn't in the room
0:34
when the conversation was taking place. I couldn't vouch for any tone that was used
0:38
or any words that were said. So it's all about which version of events
0:43
which version of the story chimes most closely with what you already understand, I suppose
0:48
about that family, both families and the relationship between Charles and Diana
0:52
and the horrific period around her death, which was so tragic. 36 years of age is all she was when she died
1:01
But here's why I think I fall down on the side of the Spencer version of events here
1:07
And again, with the proviso that I don't know for sure and I don't know the tone that was used in the conversation or anything like that
1:15
But I think it's fair to say, isn't it, that all of the evidence around this marriage
1:19
which by the way in the crown series and i'm keep and important that we make a distinction
1:24
between drama and reality as we know it or as we think we know it um there's a scene in the crown
1:30
where the marriage is toast and charles and diana are engaged in a big fight over camilla
1:41
basically and in it charles says open in the drama says that camilla is the only person that
1:49
matters to him and that Diana does not. And he says at the end of it, the actor Josh O'Connor
1:57
playing Charles, he says at the end of it, I refuse to be, I might be paraphrasing at the
2:02
beginning of this, but I remember the end of it. He said, I refuse to be essentially drawn any longer
2:09
into this grotesque misalliance. That's how the marriage is described, a grotesque misalliance
2:17
Now, I don't know about the word grotesque, because I think that's a very harsh thing to attach to any marriage, isn't it
2:23
But it was certainly a misalliance. And it's no surprise to me that the battle today
2:30
is between the Spencers and the Windsors, because the Spencers and the Windsors associations go back many centuries
2:39
The royal associations that the Spencer family has goes back many, many centuries
2:44
So Diana's father, Earl Spencer's father, for example, was an equerry to King George VI and to Queen Elizabeth
2:52
Both of Diana's grandmothers were ladies-in-waiting to the Queen Mother. Ruth Lady Fermoy, her maternal grandmother
2:58
was very close to the Queen Mother, and the two of them were essentially in cahoots, if that's the right word
3:04
in order to get the marriage of Charles and Diana off the ground in the first place. So certain were they that this combined family
3:11
of the young, beautiful, virginal bride of 19, Diana, and the 31-year-old future king in his prime
3:20
time he settled down, they had it all plotted out. Unfortunately, that's not how human hearts work
3:26
It's not how human personalities work. And most of us who've paid any attention to this over the years
3:31
know what happened. And it was tragic, really. It was very, very sad, not least for their two sons
3:37
who are adult men now in their own marriages, but tragic all the same. And one of the reasons I do think there is truth in what L Spencer is saying in his book that he claims that the now King Charles but when he was Prince Charles said rest assured
3:56
we'll forget her soon enough, or people will forget her soon enough
4:02
You know, he divorced her. They'd had an incredibly tumultuous marriage, so you can see why he personally
4:08
would want to forget her soon enough, although she was the mother of his children
4:13
so he couldn't. but I think in terms of his role as king, future role as king at the time
4:18
he absolutely wanted us to forget her soon enough. Of course he did
4:23
She was a millstone around his neck, alive, and she was probably, certainly for a period of time
4:29
an even bigger millstone around his neck in the early years after her death
4:32
and certainly in those early weeks after her death when these conversations are reported to have taken place
4:40
She would never, and I know the panoramic, interview is over lane now with some of the deceit that took place by Martin Bashir in order to get
4:50
that interview but I remember immediately after the interview an edition of Newsnight that followed and Lord Soames, Nicholas Soames
5:01
was one of the panel of guests and he said very quickly straight out of the gate he said
5:08
she's obviously a woman in the advanced stages of paranoia but she wasn't really was she
5:13
she wasn't we now know that people's phones were being tapped we do know that hacked i should say
5:22
we know they were being hacked we know that charles's side and her side were in a battle royal
5:29
so to speak um about who would get the best press how they would be viewed by the public and it
5:33
became even more acute once the separation and then the divorce took place so i think if you
5:39
watch the panorama interview and it's not readily available anymore on the bbc but because of
5:43
the deceit that was involved but you can still you can still see it and get access to some of it but
5:48
a great deal of what she said has turned out to be the case I would argue now do I deny that
5:56
Charles Spencer is bound to have some enmity towards the Windsors for how they treated
6:01
his sister of course he is I would um if if my sister's husband had cheated on her constantly
6:10
throughout the marriage, I wouldn't be particularly disposed to him, especially if she died very
6:17
young. I'm not blaming Charles for the death, but because she was adrift from the safety of a
6:23
marriage and from the safety of the royal family. And again, she may have contributed to that herself. This isn't about her having no agency at all because she was an adult woman at that stage
6:31
But I do think that in all of this, you have to remember what that marriage
6:36
was forged in. It was forged in incredibly misogynistic, old-fashioned, outdated, aristocratic nonsense in the way that, for example, William's marriage has clearly not been
6:53
He met a lovely girl at university, fell in love, stayed together over 10 years
6:58
had a bit of a break, split up, took their time to get to know each other. And I think it's
7:02
evident that theirs is a lovely, happy marriage. And by the way, I think it's evident that Charles
7:06
and Camilla's marriage is a lovely happy marriage as well. But even though we weren't in that room for the conversation
7:14
between the two Charleses, what we saw, what I saw, from the age of 15, say, when Diana burst onto the scene
7:21
to the moment she died when she was 36, I was working as a journalist at the time
7:28
we saw a misalliance. I won call it a grotesque misalliance as the Crown did because I think that harsh but it was certainly a misalliance that made both parties incredibly unhappy Look at videos of the wedding day Charles looks like he about to be taken to the gallows
7:46
and Diana looks like a sort of lost lamb, not really knowing what's going on
7:51
And she was already suspicious of Camilla by that point because she'd seen how close they were and she wasn't stupid
7:58
She could see the closeness of Charles and Camilla and then it all became horribly clear to her once she'd married him
8:04
So I think it's absolutely within the realms of reason to think that after she died, Charles Windsor, given the future he was going to have, would want our, the British public's connection to her to diminish
8:21
but I don't think it has I mean there may be a new generation coming through that doesn't have
8:27
any of that sense of connection or emotion about Diana and her time in the royal family
8:31
or just how good at it she was even if you don't feel any emotion about it she was just so
8:36
evidently brilliant at it I think it's for the birds the idea that she wouldn't be remembered
8:43
and particularly because she died young I think she I think her death and I know it was a different
8:49
set of very different set of circumstances but I think I was trying to compare it to
8:55
other public deaths and public moments of grief obviously the most obvious one here in the UK would
9:02
be the death and extraordinary funeral beautiful and very sad funeral of the late Queen Elizabeth
9:09
but even that was different because the Queen was in her 90s our connection to her was of a
9:17
different nature it was very deep but it was of a different nature I think than our connection
9:20
to the young beautiful princess who we'd seen grow up in front of us as princess of Wales
9:26
so I actually think the closest example of shock the shock that the nation felt would be
9:34
in America the JFK assassination I think there's something akin to that about Diana's death
9:40
the reaction clearly caught the royal family napping because they did not realize that that
9:46
would happen and then when it did happen they needed to be chivvied into action by the government
9:50
as to how to respond for the record I still think the queen was right to say she wanted to stay up
9:55
in Balmoral or to at least leave the boys up in Balmoral even if she felt her hand was being forced
10:00
to come back down but no the boys were put through the ringer by the nation which I think is terrible
10:04
but anyway um but as for the Diana being remembered there was no chance in hell that she was going to
10:12
be forgotten soon or late my argument about her would be that she is essentially if you if you say
10:22
to somebody name king henry the eighth's wives if you can only name one it will be anne boleyn
10:28
and i think diana princess of wales will be already is i think but in time when people are
10:36
looking back at it all 100, 200 years on, she'll be as big as Anne Boleyn
10:40
in people's historical assessment of the impact on the country and on the royal family
10:45
and on history, basically. And again, you might not be interested in the royals these days
10:50
We're a different country than we were in the 1600s, 1500s, 1600s
10:54
But I just, I think it is without doubt, in my mind
11:00
that the now king, when Prince of Wales, would have wanted the the heat around princess diana to tail off and i don't think it ever really
11:11
has i don't think it ever really has and i don't think it ever really was going to
11:15
certainly while he's alive um and i think it's interesting that the the the earl spencer the
11:24
brother of diana is saying here that there was a there was a haste really to dismiss her memory And before I have a chat with you and let you give me your thoughts
11:36
the statement that was put out by the palace, let me read it to you in case you haven't heard it
11:42
It says, While we do not comment on books as a matter of principle
11:47
His Majesty is mindful that the pain of fraternal grief, a brother's grief, can cloud reason, affect judgment and colour memory in ways others do
11:58
not recognise, even many years after such a loss. So that is, I think, a nuclear version
12:06
of Recollections May Vary, that famous, elegant statement that the Queen, the late Queen used
12:13
in order to put pay to some of the suggestions that Harry and Meghan had been making. This is
12:19
of a different order, I think, this statement. I think it's insulting to Earl Spencer. I think it's
12:26
close to what Lord Soames said about Diana after the Panorama interview. It's all about bringing
12:35
into question the sanity of the person involved, the soundness of mind of the person involved
12:40
in this case, Earl Spencer. And that's one of the reasons I err on the side of Earl Spencer here
12:47
is that if the palace deems it important enough to comment, fair enough, so be it
12:55
But the idea that only he, only Earl Spencer, in this grand drama that played out in our country
13:03
and in their lives and in their families, that only Earl Spencer is the one who lost his mind
13:09
sufficiently to just invent conversations or mishear conversations or misunderstand what people
13:16
meant is nonsense. If anything, having experienced it myself, grief and shock
13:23
it actually makes things very acute. You become very acutely aware of detail
13:33
Maybe that's too far. Maybe that's a very subject, you know, an individual thing
13:38
In my experience, it's made me more acutely aware of what's being said around me
13:43
and done and what's happening around me. But I think the fact that they chose to put a dent
13:51
a serious dent and an ill-mannered dent in Charles Spencer's recollections, a man who's clearly capable of great communication
14:02
has written some superb history books by all accounts, his book about his own schooling I read
14:06
which was excellent and brave, that he was he amongst all of them was uniquely unable is now uniquely unable to remember things
14:16
clearly because he's bereaved i'm sorry i'm not buying that i'm not buying that but i do buy i
14:23
don't know whether the conversation took place but i do buy the idea that that as prince charles who
14:29
had been through the ringer himself in that marriage let's not forget and and in public
14:33
opinion as well. Some terrible things happened to Prince Charles, intrusive, grotesque intrusions
14:39
to his privacy. I think he of course wanted that chapter of his life to fade away. Of course he did
14:47
But the public were never going to let that happen because of who she was. I mean, she lit
14:51
up the royal family and she was only in it for about 10, 12 years as a full Princess of Wales
14:58
working royal um and she was extraordinary whether you love her or not she was an extraordinary
15:04
figure who did the job with extraordinary panache and humor and doesn't harm does it to be beautiful
15:11
and she very much was for those reasons i go charles spencer not charles rex what about you
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