Up next in 10
Bold claims from a new memoir by the brother of Diana, Princess of Wales have prompted an unprecedented response from the King ahead of an important day of Royal events.
Earl Spencer claimed the King told him: "rest assured, we'll forget her soon enough" in an explosive memoir.
00:00 | Charlotte Griffiths, royal commentator and editor-at-large of the Mail on Sunday explains that the Palace's response is like the Queen's 'recollections may vary' statement in 2021.
04:17 | Georgina Sturmer, psychotherapist, specialising in relationships and grief, brings her analysis.
07:56 | Caller Muhammed wonders why King Charles responded, given the Palace's usual stance of 'never complain, never explain'.
09:57 | Caller Carol believes the Royal Family did not realise the 'enduring' legacy that Diana would have.
12:25 | Caller Jackie rejects Earl Spencer's claim that those were the specific words used.
14:46 | Caller Ashley explains why he 'completely sides' with Diana's brother.
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0:00
It would appear that level of anger has not gone away with this impending book, as I say
0:05
Bought by the Daily Mail, making global headlines. The brother saying, Charles told me, rest assured, we'll forget Diana soon enough
0:14
And the palace responding, the pain of fraternal grief can cloud reason and colour memory
0:20
Let's bring into the conversation Charlotte Griffiths. Charlotte is the Royal Commentator and Editor-at-Large of the Mail on Sunday and joins me now
0:26
I'm old enough to remember the mantra used to be, don't complain. and don't explain. That seems to have changed in modern times, Charlotte. Morning to you
0:34
Hi, morning. Well, it really is still never complain, never explain. The only time they've
0:39
broken cover was, of course, for recollections may vary, that expertly crafted statement. And
0:45
here we have another one that they've obviously poured a lot of time and effort into. But it's
0:50
completely rare to have a statement like this from the palace. They really do not complain or
0:55
Spain unless it's absolutely necessary and so they obviously felt it was and so we're all calling it
1:01
in press land you know recollections may vary 2.0. I've only had the privilege of actually I've never
1:08
met him as king I've only had the privilege of meeting him as prince three four times I don't
1:12
know but I've got to be honest with you it doesn't sound like him to me you know him you know his
1:19
inner circle does it sound like the prince the king to you? Well I've got to say he had great
1:25
foresight even after Diana in the moments after Diana died he knew to fly over there in a plane
1:30
to get you know the royal bells and whistles for her to fly back and be repatriated and I think he
1:36
showed very good instincts at the time so it's that feels kind of incongruous to this idea that
1:41
we'll forget about her because you know he at the time was making steps to make sure that her return
1:47
to England was, you know, very much, you know, well, had the full royal treatment. So, you know
1:55
yeah, I just think it's extraordinary. It doesn't sound like it fits with how he behaved at the time
2:02
And, you know, I'd be interested to see whether there are any contemporaneous notes on either side
2:07
because it's such an incendiary thing to say. And yet there doesn't seem to be any evidence to back
2:13
it up one aspect that we also i say again the mail has serialization so read it in a copy of
2:19
the daily mail coming to you soon one aspect that does seem to be featured in swan song is
2:23
there seems to be a degree of jealousy between then prince charles he he wasn't able to get
2:28
much traction to anything he did and his wife like diana only had to get out of a land rover
2:33
and the global press went mad i think there was a sense of rivalry rare is that fair charlotte
2:38
oh yeah there famously was and it's something prince harry still reiterates to this day you
2:42
Prince Harry believes fully that the royals are jealous of Meghan and that Meghan's star power is like that of Diana's
2:48
and that's why they kind of conspired to get rid of her in his mind. So yeah, I mean, it's well acknowledged that Charles found that very difficult
2:56
and in Australia famously found it very difficult when everyone was looking at her and not him
3:01
But then he did have the ability to make the odd joke about it at his own expense
3:06
So yeah, I think, yeah, there was jealousy, But I can't imagine he was hoping people would forget about Diana
3:13
not least because she was the mother of his sons. And lastly, over the decades since her death
3:20
what do we understand to be the relationship between Charles and Earl Spencer
3:24
Have they had moments where they've come together or has there always been, do you believe, a sense of hostility
3:30
I believe there's always been hostility. I mean, you played that eulogy earlier where he said
3:33
you know, your blood family, Diana, will remember you. And I just think that clearly that resentment has held for 30 years
3:40
You can very much hear it in what Charles Spencer has written in his book. It's as fresh as it was 30 years ago
3:46
So I find it very unlikely that Charles and Charles are close
3:50
What I find quite interesting is that Harry and Charles Spencer are close. At the same time that Harry is trying to get back in with the royal family and get closer to his father and get his children to get to know his father
4:01
But at the same time has formed this allegiance with Charles Spencer, knowing there's animosity between the two men
4:07
it's a real triangle of doom, I suppose you'd say. Hollywood couldn script it could it Charlotte thanks as ever Charlotte Griffiths your Royal Commentator Editor for The Mail on mail on sunday 11 after 8 thank you let bring the conversation georgina sturma georgina is a psychotherapist who specializes in relationships and grief and really that my
4:24
first question to you if you have a family dynamic between brother and sister brother-in-law whatever
4:30
what can grief what is the impact that grief can bring to a dynamic where there is already a degree
4:35
of antagonism or hostility morning to you good morning thank you for having me um i guess when
4:41
we think about the impact of grief we can also we can almost imagine that it might sit like a layer
4:46
upon on top of absolutely everything so anything that we are already feeling in that family and
4:51
and we're listening to to you talking about everything all the emotions that are happening
4:55
in that family already jealousy resentment anger whatever there might be grief can sit like a layer
5:00
on top of it so it can enhance what's already there it can make relationships more complicated
5:05
sometimes it can bring people together although that doesn't sound like that's what's been
5:09
happening in this case but it adds this extra layer of depth and complexity to the emotions
5:14
that are already there. While it might get less raw does grieving ever stop? So it's a great
5:21
question we have this kind of traditional view of grief theory that suggests that we move along
5:26
a continuum we go through these stages of grief and then at some point it's done. What we now
5:31
really believe in terms of modern grief theory is that isn't really how it works and that's okay
5:35
in fact grief is part of our story and what we can do as people going through our lives is just
5:43
simply grow around it so sometimes our grief will pop up again there'll be something that triggers
5:47
it it might be a big occasion or it might be something really small and sometimes it'll come
5:51
out of nowhere and sometimes we won't even think about it at all but the idea that we are meant to
5:56
sort of end our process of grieving or get over it in some way is actually not as healthy as us
6:01
saying it's part of my story, it's in there now. How could you tell that you've still got control
6:07
over understandable grief rather than grief is getting control of you and taking you over
6:13
I guess it's like any intense feeling. What we would be asking is can you function? Can you
6:17
function in your everyday life? Can you function in your relationships? You know it's perfectly
6:22
normal if we are grieving to have days when we feel intense emotion but is it stopping us from
6:28
going about everyday life, is it stopping us from getting out of bed, those kinds of things
6:32
those are the moments where we might say, okay, well, do we need some additional support here
6:36
beyond what we're already getting? And lastly, if we look at this, and obviously you've not met with
6:43
either of the people involved, but it would appear that this gentleman, the brother, has possibly
6:47
been nurturing grief for almost three decades, Georgina. That's not healthy for anybody
6:53
it's an ordinary part of life if we think about it as i've just said grief becomes part of our
7:00
story so in terms of what is or isn't healthy for one person or the next i think it's about saying
7:06
well are they able to cope in their everyday life how much does it influence their actions
7:11
um how much does it pop up at certain other times um but the healthiness of how and when
7:18
we get over grief is going to be really really personal and individual i think
7:21
thanks for your time Georgina Sturman is a psychotherapist specialising in relationships
7:26
and in grief well to give that headline again it's a right royal row or it's a war of words
7:30
Diana's brother and I quote Charles told me rest assured we'll forget Diana soon enough
7:36
the palace quotes the pain of fraternal grief can cloud reason and colour memory
7:43
I do hope it's not the case but have you had a family that's been divided in some way
7:47
and when you lost mum or whoever it might have been, it just got worse
7:52
I fear it might be. We'll take your calls on that. Weddings and funnels always bring out arguments
7:59
as you know, and I think the situation with the book, the book's not even out, right
8:08
And King Charles, whatever, King Charles, yes, King Charles has already made a statement
8:14
Now, in my opinion, other opinions are important, But in my opinion, Nick, it sounds a bit dodgy, to be honest
8:21
What bit sounds dodgy, Mohamed? ever, ever say anything. He should have just kept his mouth shut
8:33
said nothing, wait till the book's out, wait for a couple of weeks
8:37
then have reflection time and said, look, we need to make a statement on this
8:42
and then say it. I think to say it now without the book being out
8:46
has caused him a lot of damage. So, hang on, just to clarify
8:52
he's able to write what he's put in the book or are you saying he should
8:56
have just kept that, the supposed comments the king made to him, he should have kept
9:00
to himself. No, no, no. Sorry. You can write what he wants in the book
9:06
but King Charles has made a statement so quick. Okay? And I think..
9:12
Ah, King Charles. Sorry, I thought you meant Earl Spencer. Sorry, sorry, I've got you, got you
9:16
got you, got you. Yeah, yeah. So I think King Charles has made a statement
9:20
so quick without the book even coming out, he should have holded his grace
9:24
waited a couple of weeks and then made a statement. What does that achieve, though? I mean, again, no one knows
9:30
but it's a pretty cruel suggestion to make of the man, the widower and the father of the two boys
9:39
I don't see what's achieved by sitting on your hands. Well, the book could have came out
9:44
and then he could have looked at it and then addressed it and then made a statement. But we live in the world of 24-hour news, of course, Mohammed
9:51
Yeah, but, you know, I want to make a statement before the book's out
9:55
Okay. Good morning. You say two men will ever know, and as they say, grief makes memory a little bit vague
10:04
so some people will believe they know what they don't know. I also really firmly believe
10:09
that it does not sound like Charles's immediate response. No. But, and here's the but
10:15
Go ahead. The royal family were completely blindsided by the impact of Diana's death on the public
10:24
and the amount of support she got. They U-turned. They U-turned with the royal standard being lowered
10:31
if I've got that correct, what they call the flag, being lowered to half-mast
10:35
They seem to have backtracked on so many things because they were taken by surprise
10:41
And so whilst the words may not be precise, Maybe we can accuse Earl Spencer of trying to make his book sell better by being confrontational and having the most impact
10:58
I do firmly, firmly believe that the royal family did not believe Diana's legacy in so many areas, not least the impact on the royal family, which largely has been negative, would be so strong, so enduring, and constantly with us
11:17
Well, that's enduring, isn't it? I'm repeating myself. No, you're right. They were utterly wrong-footed and they had to play catch-up
11:26
But let me ask you, Carol, can you honestly hear these words coming from the King, then Prince Charles
11:32
rest assured, we'll forget Diana soon enough. I'm sorry, I'm not buying it
11:39
No, neither am I as verbatim, but I am believing that that was his belief and it may have come across in other ways
11:48
As I said, Spencer is trying to sell a book. He will be sensational
11:52
And maybe his grief has colored him and he firmly believes he heard that
11:57
Believe me, my own family accused me of saying things. We all do it
12:01
That wasn't exactly the same way. However, I do think that was the sentiment and that was the belief
12:10
And I also believe that they don't know how to react. Mohammed made a very good point
12:15
the late Queen said, never explain, never complain. I think, again, Charles has been wrong-footed in that direction
12:24
Do you believe King Charles or Prince Charles used words such as
12:28
we'll forget Diana soon enough? No, absolutely not. Definitely not his words at all
12:35
But my point was really that the boys walking behind... I mean, everyone was traumatised, I was traumatised
12:42
the whole world was traumatised, the country was traumatised. and it must have been absolutely traumatic for those boys But the point is when they as children it must have been well even just her dying must have been dreadful for them
12:59
the grief and et cetera. Of course. But as an adult, I would be looking at that now
13:05
thinking what a wonderful privilege I had to accompany my mother on that route
13:11
to follow my mother's coffin. Right. I would sort of... And I don't understand why no-one has sort of even thought of that for Harry
13:21
Because it seems to be that is what the crux of the thing is. But the whole world watching, Jackie
13:27
With the world watching? Yeah, I think so, because you'd just block it out
13:32
I mean, if you're in that much grief and trauma, you're not really aware of what's going on around you
13:37
Obviously, it was... And also... Just lastly, you said that you were traumatised by the death of Diana
13:43
I mean, obviously it's desperately sad to see a young woman with children who lose their life in that fashion, but in what way were you traumatised
13:51
My daughter was the same age as... Ah, as Diana. Oh, as William, I'm so sorry
13:56
Yes, I was the same age as Diana, and my daughter was the same age as William
14:02
And that's why it got to you. I must leave it there, Jackie. I don't know, you made me nervous. It was fantastic, first class and first time
14:09
Be like Jackie, get it off your chest, get it on the radio. Jackie, have a good day down in Kent. I'm just checking I can read this
14:14
Lisa, I've not had contact with my siblings or parents for many many years
14:19
an alternative way to done a lot of grieving already my parents are ageing and inevitably will pass away
14:24
in the near future, I dread it it's a messy and complex situation I'm going to find it incredibly difficult when the time comes
14:30
what I do know is the pain of losing someone hurts and what it's meant is life changing
14:35
and I've had to learn to live my life without my family you might want to
14:40
to use a modern expression reach out to mum and dad, do you think, Lisa
14:44
But you'll know better than I. So, as I said before, the war of words
14:48
between Earl Spencer and the palace, ashes in Beaconsfield. Sorry to be so brutal, Ashley
14:53
but who do you believe? The king or the earl? On this occasion, Nick, I believe the earl
14:59
I think it might not be completely accurate word for word, but I do completely side with him
15:06
and believe that Prince Charles or King Charles would have said something like this
15:10
And what brings you to that assumption? I think you have to look at the history and what happened around Diana's death
15:17
And prior to that, this is a man that committed adultery on her. And then further down the line, after her death, changed the rules of the church so he could then marry Camilla
15:26
I think you also have to look at how the royal family, and I know it's touched on by callers previously
15:31
handled the death of Diana and how dumbstruck they were in terms of the outpouring of grief
15:36
And it took them completely off guard. And for me, this was, I suppose, I don't want to say downfall of the royal family
15:42
but I think that was the first chink you saw in the royal family's armoury
15:46
in terms of the way that they handled it. And I think then people resented them going forward from that point
15:53
If being an out-and-out royalist is 10 out of 10, how much of a royalist are you
15:58
9, 8, 7, 6, 5, what would you say? I'm not a royalist
16:04
You're zero, you have no you are against the royal family or you're just absolutely
16:10
don't care either way I'm agnostic to it Nick, I don't think they
16:14
I don't think they offer much to us now in this kind of realm
16:19
because they don't rule right, so the whole point of a royal family
16:23
was to rule the land they don't, so for me I'm completely agnostic
16:27
to it, I don't wish bad upon them I want to be clear, I don't go out and protest
16:30
and want them to, you know whatever, but I'm completely agnostic to it, I don't really see a purpose
16:37
for them, so they don't rule anymore Lastly, there is no measure for this
16:41
but how much damage do you think a book like this might do to the standing of the king
16:45
and or the royal family? I think it adds a lot of damage, and I think, you know
16:51
the king isn't a very well man, and I really, really do hope he is doing
16:55
okay, but I think he's got lots and lots and lots of things
16:58
piling up on his plate, with Harry and Meghan coming back with the book coming out. It's one
17:03
thing after another, so I think this does a lot of damage to him. Ashley, have a good day. Thank you
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