Up next in 10
Lindsay Clancy admitted to strangling her three children with exercise bands in the basement of her Massachusetts home in January 2023.
She then jumped from a second-floor window in what prosecutors say was an attempt to take her own life. She survived but was left paralysed.
Defence lawyers argue Clancy was suffering from severe postpartum mental illness and should not be held criminally responsible for her actions. Prosecutors say the killings were a planned murder.
Should Lindsay Clancy be held criminally responsible for killing her children?
Clancy faces a mandatory life sentence if convicted of any of the first-degree murder charges against her.
00:00 Shelagh Fogarty summarises the case.
02:04 Lindsay Clancy's ex-husband Patrick Clancy describes what kind of mother she was.
03:45 Shelagh shares her thoughts.
05:55 Criminal Defence Lawyer Elyse Hershon tells Shelagh about the 'outpouring' of support for Lindsay Clancy.
18:31 Why are women so interested in the Lindsay Clancy case? Caller Anita joins Shelagh.
25:08 Sheila Kavanagh, a chaplain at the women's hospital that Lindsay Clancy stayed in after she allegedly killed her children and attempted to take her own life, takes the stand at the trial.
28:23 Caller Katie, who has gone through postpartum depression herself, says this trial 'will go down in history'.
32:50 Midwife Sue says 'the vitriol towards Clancy is unbelievable'.
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
Hello there, good afternoon to you. I want to talk about the trial of Lindsay Clancy that I know many of you are very aware of
0:06
It's getting a huge following. It's an American trial, a first degree murder trial
0:11
It's now entered its fourth week. So we're at a really significant point in the case because the prosecution has finished presenting its evidence
0:19
and the defence for the last few days has been making its case
0:24
If you're not familiar with the trial, let me fill you in a bit. Lindsay Clancy is accused of killing her three children five-year-old Cora three-year-old Dawson
0:33
and eight-month-old Callan at the family home in Duxbury in Massachusetts back in January of 2023
0:40
she is alleged to have then jumped from a window in an apparent suicide attempt
0:46
after killing her children and has been left paralyzed by that there is no dispute at this
0:52
stage that Lindsay Clancy killed the children. The entire case turns on why she did it and whether
0:59
she was criminally responsible for what she did. Now the defence says that she was suffering from
1:06
severe postpartum psychosis, postpartum being the time just after delivery, postpartum psychosis
1:13
and bipolar disorder and that her mental state had deteriorated dramatically in the months before
1:20
the killings. The prosecution, meanwhile, has argued that there was planning and deliberate
1:27
behaviour and that she understood what she was doing. Now, over the first three weeks
1:34
jurors have heard evidence about her medication, her internet searches, her Apple Watch data
1:40
her own behaviour in the period leading up to the killings. The prosecution has also questioned
1:45
whether some of her actions were consistent with someone who was completely detached from reality
1:53
Here is Patrick Clancy, her then husband, the then husband, he was her husband at the time of
1:59
the killings, and the father of the children. This was him speaking in the past couple of weeks at
2:03
trial. What kind of a mother was she? She was very dedicated. She did everything
2:09
um she started reading them books at three months and um she made up songs for them um i remember she used to make green eggs and ham for cora
2:26
because she liked that book did she describe to you some thoughts or feelings that
2:31
um she was having at that time yeah she started to say she was suicidal were you aware um that
2:39
there was a prescription for Busparon or Buspar filled on October 26, 2022
2:46
in which only two pills were taken out of the 30 that were prescribed? I found out about the Buspar later, and I didn't know about the number of pills taken
2:57
And do you recall how she was physically after starting the Seroquel
3:11
Awful. How so? That was really where her big spiral started. She started to lose a lot of weight, and she became very depressed
3:23
and she was having a really hard time. And did she describe to you some thoughts or feelings
3:33
that she was having at that time? Yeah, she started to say she was suicidal
3:39
I remember that would have been whilst she was allegedly experiencing a psychotic episode
3:45
Well, at the heart of this trial is this. Was Lindsay Clancy, a mother suffering an extreme psychiatric episode
3:52
who could not understand what she was doing? Or was she criminally responsible
3:58
for three deliberate premeditated killings of her small children? I think one fascinating element of this trial
4:07
is that unlike what we see in this country, it is live streamed every day
4:12
It's gained worldwide attraction in certain subgenres of social media. I've certainly been watching it a lot on social media
4:20
One in particular being on TikTok. amongst young women viewers worldwide. Conspiracies and conversation around the trial
4:28
are being thrown left, right and centre about the detail of the trial
4:32
and about her potential guilt or not and whether the killer is in fact her husband
4:38
Question is, are we finding out Lindsay is innocent at the same time that she is
4:43
Or has she known that she's innocent this whole time? Because I didn't know
4:48
but now I know that she obviously didn't do this. Well, that's an individual's definitive response
4:56
I've seen lots of women on, women in particular, on social media, on Instagram and TikTok
5:01
literally almost jokingly saying, right, I'm supposed to be going to work
5:05
or I'm supposed to be doing this, but I'm actually living as though I'm a juror in this trial
5:09
and I'm not going anywhere for the rest of the day. And they're following it in absolute detail
5:13
and then together in groups discussing it. And I'm not quite that involved in it
5:18
but I'm certainly watching a lot of the content and the clips after the live streaming
5:23
And I wonder whether you are, for a start, and why women are so interested in not just true crime generally
5:31
and particularly crimes against women and children, but in this case in particular, in the Lindsay Clancy case in particular
5:39
I'll tell you in a minute why I am, but what I think it's illustrating and the questions it throws up
5:45
but why do you think women are so interested in it? And in this case in particular, 0345
5:50
6 0 6 0 9 7 3 the number to call you can text 84850 with me to talk more about this is elise hershon
5:57
a criminal defense lawyer in boston massachusetts the state where this crime
6:01
took place and where the trial is taking place good afternoon to you elise thank you for joining
6:05
me thank you good morning here and good afternoon to you now i know that um the uh the government
6:13
said uh this is not a trial about mental health it's a trial about murder but it can't help but
6:20
be a trial about mental health as well, can it? Particularly maternal mental health
6:25
I think it absolutely is. I think the government doesn't want it to be about mental health because
6:30
there's so much support for it. There's so many people suffering from it, if not directly a family
6:35
member, a colleague, a close friend. Everybody, I think, can relate to the struggles that it is to
6:42
advocate, at least in this country, for proper care, for battling with the insurance. A lot of
6:49
issues in the healthcare system that we have and mental health particularly and for women
6:54
especially postpartum, there's a lot of sort of silent struggling that happens. There's a lot of
7:01
pressure to, you know, be a mother and to do it perfectly and to do it well and not admit that
7:06
you're struggling. So this trial really has ignited some strong feelings in, you know
7:12
the court of public opinion, we call it, and people watching because they feel the same sort of
7:20
dismissive type feelings they get from healthcare workers that think either they making it up or they exaggerating It reminds me it very different in nature but it reminds me or the moment reminds me of the Amber Heard Johnny Depp hearings the OJ hearings you know and that connection that
7:42
people had to those cases and the latching onto particular views and discussing it endlessly on
7:47
social media and the like. Why do you think women in particular have tapped into this trial
7:52
I think that it's been more than people have expected this morning actually in court just organically
8:04
Before court started, there were three, four, maybe 500 women showing up for a silent rally or a silent group of support, all wearing pink
8:14
some of them bringing their children in support of Lindsay Clancy, in support of mothers and
8:20
people who are struggling postpartum. That is so powerful to see. Certainly, it's not, you know
8:28
maneuvered or manipulated by either party as part of the case. It's something that
8:32
happened on social media. I've been watching it, and it happened today. So I think they're
8:36
actually questioning each juror to make sure that they can still remain impartial, despite seeing this outpouring of support for somebody who suffers and is suffering from mental
8:46
illness but is also on trial for triple murder of her children yeah and what i have found
8:53
interesting is that i haven't watched the trial every single day just because i'm busy doing my
8:57
own things as well but i've watched a lot of content about the trial and clips from the trial
9:01
and i i've now reached a point this is why i find it interesting that so many members of the public
9:07
are seeing this on essentially on television or in social media clips because you do get
9:13
or the danger is you end up getting a kind of algorithm version of the events. And for example
9:21
I've only discovered from social media that her husband was having an affair shortly after the
9:27
killings, went on holiday with his lover on that holiday, was sending reviews of the hike he'd just
9:35
been on and how much fun it had been and that begs questions surely about uh the i don't know
9:44
the state of his mind and heart really doesn't it we call that reasonable doubt here um so and
9:52
you know we say allegedly because it hasn't come in as evidence in the trial and certainly
9:55
things that go on the internet especially with artificial intelligence what is real and what
10:01
might not be true um but we do know that he is remarried and he has moved to new york um and he
10:07
has moved on um or attempted to move on with his life so the the important part here and the
10:14
interesting part about this case is usually you're going either for our guilty or not guilty the
10:18
the prosecution we call it the commonwealth um certainly influenced from from the uk but the
10:24
commonwealth of massachusetts is the government here and they're prosecuting her for first degree
10:29
murder, Lindsay Clancy, for strangling her three young children, all under the age of five
10:35
with exercise bans, a very horrific, you know, suffering way to die. And then attempting her
10:41
own suicide by splitting her wrists and throat, taking, crushing up some medication and throwing
10:48
herself out the window. She's now in a wheelchair, confined for life. She had a thoracic spinal cord
10:55
injury and is no she's paralyzed from you know the chest down so visually it's a you know it's
11:03
a shocking trial for a lot of reasons the defendant is not some you know appearing stone-cold killer
11:10
like the prosecution is trying to paint her as with their with their testimony every witness that
11:16
has testified both the prosecution and the defense has said she was a loving mother she loved her
11:21
children. She loved other people's children. She was a labour and deliverator. She cried when
11:25
strangers delivered their babies. I mean, this is a woman who was a great mother
11:30
Well, I was watching a clip this morning of her defence lawyer reading out excerpts from her diary in the early days of the youngest baby's life, the youngest child's life
11:41
And she was clearly struggling with the pressure and stress of early motherhood. And she was laying
11:45
a lot of guilt on herself about not breastfeeding, saying that he was becoming unwell more frequently
11:52
because he had two older but still very young kids who were bringing germs into the house. So
11:56
he was a sick baby all the time. And that made him cry and cry and cry and cry. And that was very
12:01
difficult for her. And you could hear in the detail of the diary, a woman under pressure
12:06
But what was interesting was her own mother-in-law, when questioned, said, you know, her mother-in-law
12:12
on paper anyway, would have every reason in the world to loathe this woman. And quite the opposite
12:18
She said she was a fabulous mother. She was definitely under pressure. She reached out for
12:24
help when she was under pressure. She wasn't pretending. She was asking for help. She was
12:27
saying what she was going through, which leads to that argument by the defence that she was badly let
12:33
down. Absolutely. The mother-in-law and her now ex-husband, who's remarried, was also on the stand
12:42
and, you know, supporting her. And right even after it happened, she's not a murderer. She's
12:49
not a monster. She's suffering from mental illness, you know. So people that have every right, like you
12:55
said, to be upset that their lives were, especially the husband, the ex-husband, whose lives were
13:00
completely upended and lost, you know, essentially his wife and now his children, are still saying
13:08
that, no, she was actually suffering from mental illness. This is real and this was not her
13:13
So in the US and here, the prosecution needs to prove beyond a reasonable doubt
13:19
that someone's presumed innocent and they need to be proven otherwise. And in this, I'm sorry, go ahead
13:26
I was going to say, has it been outlined in court, because I can't remember whether it was outlined in court or whether it was just on social media
13:33
Has it been outlined in court that the only fingerprints on those exercise bans that were used to commit the crimes were the husband's fingerprints
13:43
So I think it was the DNA expert. And I think that's sort of when the Patrick did it sort of conspiracy theories online really took off
13:52
um it's not that dispositive in this case because they all live together so whether his
13:58
dna is or we're on what is a normal sort of everyday item that was used to end her children's
14:06
lives but hers were not hers were not so it is an interesting thing and i think during the closing
14:13
that will certainly be wrapped up by the it'll be pointed out by the defense attorney but what i was
14:19
it actually relates to the point I was about to make, which is the defense is not going for a
14:24
complete acquittal here. They're not going for find her not guilty. She didn't do this and normally
14:30
would welcome, you know, well, it could have been this person. We call it a third party culprit
14:35
You know, that could have been the husband could have been without saying it could have been the husband. They're not going for that. They're not going for that. I think that came out in the trial
14:43
and it became such a bigger focus for the court of public opinion. The jury's not supposed to look
14:48
at social media, it seems almost unavoidable. It's everywhere you go. People are talking about it on the street
14:55
I was just going to say that the prosecution has to actually disprove that she was suffering from mental illness so much that it overcame her ability for intentional murder
15:07
So the defense doesn't have to put on a case. They are. The defense doesn't have to present evidence
15:13
They have. The prosecution needs to prove not only murder, but that she was not severely mentally ill and in psychosis
15:21
And I don't think they've done that. You talked about the intense interest. What's the feeling like in America? I mentioned those
15:28
two previous trials, but in terms of scale, how much is it dominating water cooler conversation
15:35
as they say? Everywhere. It's everywhere. I've done a lot of coverage on local and
15:42
our national networks here. I'm a criminal defense attorney. I know this courthouse
15:48
And I know just sort of I'm very entrenched in where it's happening
15:54
And it's just a little bit south of Boston. And I can't go anywhere without either overhearing a conversation that has nothing to do with me, you know, in Starbucks or, you know, certainly in court
16:07
But on the weekends, you know, out at the gym, everyone's talking about it
16:12
You know, I have friends that are at the gym and they actually see me talking on the news about this case
16:18
It's just the case coverage is everywhere. And people are talking about it in a much more positive way, I think, than anyone anticipated with regards to the sympathizing with Lindsay Clancy's suffering
16:32
And that, I think, is also a reaction to the prosecution going after her in a very harsh way, right in the beginning, villainizing her and saying, well, she didn't tell her providers all of her symptoms
16:45
She didn't talk to all of them about the voices. so she must be making it up as if to say she was capable of feeding her children breakfast
16:52
and taking her daughter to the doctor the day that she did this so because she's capable she
16:57
can't be struggling and if a woman is silent that means nothing is wrong so those messages i think
17:03
very powerfully hit a lot of women yeah and they're speaking out about it of course they hit a lot of
17:08
women those messages yeah without a doubt i i read here just before i leave you eliza i read here
17:13
that there are currently just really moments after the trial resumed today 60,000 people already
17:18
watching it on YouTube um so that that live streaming in in minutes you know and then that
17:23
that gathers during the day as well doesn't it thank you very much indeed for for outlining the
17:26
impact of it both in America and online Elise Herschon um I know that the subject here is very
17:32
difficult particularly the death of those three little children of course and the suffering of
17:37
the mother as well um which is evident you know and it's evident not just in trial but it's evident
17:42
in the medical paperwork as well. If any of this is proving difficult for you
17:47
and you want to talk to somebody about it, because I know postpartum period of a life
17:52
can be very difficult indeed, even if it's not this extreme, then the Samaritans number is 116 123
17:59
That's free 24-7, 116 123. I think Marita hits the nail on the head
18:06
as to why women are interested in this. She says women's instinct, women's gut instinct
18:10
women's protection mode, women's investigative skills, women's BS radar. I think that that's all part of it for sure
18:18
And I'll tell you in a minute why I'm so fascinated by it and what I think is really inherent in it that I think touches every woman
18:29
especially women who've given birth. Anita in Marlborough. Hello, Anita. Hello, lovely Sheila
18:35
I don't know, I'm not okay with this course, the trial going on
18:40
And I do love to follow these things, especially online. I know they take up an awful lot of your life, that's trouble
18:46
I did watch the Amber Heard and Johnny Depp case online. But I do really enjoy watching, I mean, I could tell my every waking moment of watching crime stories
18:56
Real ones or dramas? No, not the dramas so much. The real thing, the real thing
19:03
A, because you can't believe that these sorts of things actually happen in the world, but they do because they're real
19:07
but for me I in a subconscious way I try to sort of think why I like it so much but I know a lot of
19:13
women do for me it's kind of subconsciously learning what could be out there what could
19:22
happen to you how to deal with it uh and to see it coming possibly before it hits you and I'm also
19:29
very interested in um different personalities and personality disorders and narcissism and
19:36
all those sorts of things because i think the better that you are equipped what is out there
19:41
uh the chance of survival is slightly better no i think you're right about even if it's never
19:47
going to touch your life i think you're right about something in us wants to scan what we might
19:54
be facing i think you're right there and and you talked about narcissism obviously we can't diagnose
19:59
anybody involved in this case ourselves but but i find narcissists whether they're criminal
20:03
narcissists or not i find them fascinating i find them i find them darkly fascinating but i find
20:09
them fascinating yeah there's something so alien about it well i think if you can learn about
20:14
somebody's personality you can kind of not be one step ahead you can't always be one step ahead but
20:20
you can sit and work out what might be coming down the line and you can either stay or leave
20:25
you can get the hell out yeah you know and it might not even be a partner it could be a colleague
20:30
it could be an in-law it could be a friend of a friend it could be you know you you don't have to
20:35
linger in these things do you if they're harmful to you but i i have to say because i've learned
20:40
i learned about it through youtube watching i'm no um academic i just love um working out how
20:48
people's minds work and why have you caught up with any of this story no just today yeah but i'm
20:55
going to get online later stay and have a look i think if you what you've just said to me about
21:01
you know why you find it so interesting i think you would really find this interesting and
21:05
one of the things i think is coming out loud and clear i've already decided in my wisdom i do not
21:12
think this woman should be uh found guilty of office of murder at all i just don't the only
21:19
thing that i can compare to is i have had post-marchive depression right and i have had
21:24
depression and so I can understand how quickly and suddenly your mind can just turn on a switch
21:32
from being sort of low to really wanting to do something more serious I can understand that
21:38
when you were postnatally depressed did you have those thoughts um no I never had thoughts
21:45
thoughts of humming myself or my children I just knew I felt like I was going completely mad
21:50
and I left it seven months before I did anything because I was worried my children were going to be taken away from me
21:56
Oh, gosh. And again, that is so common a fear, isn't it
22:01
Understandably, it's a common fear. Well, this was in the late 90s, early 2000s
22:06
but even then, you know, if you are on antidepressants, nobody spoke about it
22:11
Nobody did. But I've been on antidepressants for 24 years because I just can't cope with it
22:17
They work for you, yeah. Yeah. Well, you can cope with life. You just have something that needs to be dealt with while you do that
22:23
Yes just a little bit of help Yeah But I can understand her frame of mind And i so cross that people are vilifying vilifying her because until you walk a mile in somebody shoes keep your mouth shut well i i agree but i
22:39
also understand why people people's instincts might be horror at the killing of the children
22:45
yeah i understand that and and it was interesting to hear um my guest earlier saying that um elise
22:53
saying that um the the defense isn't attempting to to suggest that the husband did it um but
23:01
when i was watching it first i i was just thinking god this poor woman clearly was out of her mind
23:09
i need to catch up but i think but but i'm but i now think i now think she might not have done it
23:16
well if you were ever thinking of ever killing your child or you hated them or you weren't
23:21
connecting with them or bonding with them why would you why would you read to them at three months yeah that's the only bit i've heard but you know you try and give your child the best chance
23:30
in life she must have completely been either psychotic or just you know out of her mind and
23:37
i think when the i mean even during the prosecution's evidence some of the prosecution's
23:41
evidence it was favorable to the to the to the woman um in terms of they couldn't say she was a
23:49
terrible mother because there was no evidence that she was and when the defense brings as the
23:53
defense lawyer said he would he's going to bring out friends from her junior school high school
23:59
university early career and because he knows that they know her and they're all going to say
24:05
this woman was a high flyer you know a talented young woman who wanted to do well adored her
24:12
family wanted to do that well she was great they're all going to say how great she was
24:16
well something happened along the way yeah something has happened and i just don't think
24:21
there's enough support you know the worry is my children will be taken from me that is the biggest
24:27
worry that's why i didn't say anything for seven months yeah you know i mean it's the longer you
24:32
leave it the worse it gets yeah and i think thank you so much for sharing all of that anita not just
24:37
your interest in true crime but your own experience of post-atal depression because i think that's
24:41
absolutely vital. I think it is a fool's game by the prosecution or the government to think that
24:49
this trial isn't about maternal mental health and the mental health medical industry around it as
24:57
well. I think it's inevitable that it is about that. I'll talk more in a minute after the news
25:02
headlines on the central thing in it for me that makes me really interested in this trial
25:08
Sheila Kavanagh, who is a chaplain at the women's hospital that Lindsay Clancy stayed in
25:13
after she allegedly killed her children and attempted to take her own life
25:17
has just taken the stand at the trial. She continued to look like the photograph you just saw
25:25
She was covered, tubes everywhere, the neck brace. Her emotional state was very neutral, a flat affect
25:34
but I remember vividly the first thing she said to me. Now she had heard me for a couple of days
25:41
We had been praying together. And so when I went in on Tuesday the 31st
25:46
she said to me as I held her hand to comfort her, I am so glad my children are safe
25:56
Was there any other conversation that you had with her? I replied theologically to Lindsay and I said, Lindsay, your children are safe
26:07
They're safe in heaven with God. And I held her hand throughout that conversation and we prayed for them
26:16
Did she make any other statements to you? She did. She alluded to having heard a voice and the voice, according to Lindsay
26:26
told her that if she did not follow the command, neither she nor her children would be safe
26:34
And did she indicate whether it was a male voice, a female voice, loud, soft
26:39
She alluded to the fact that it was a male voice and it was persistent
26:44
That's Sheila Kavanagh, a chaplain at the women's hospital that Lindsay Clancy stayed in
26:50
shortly after the deaths of her children. I am so glad my children are safe. And again, I can't interpret that. But one interpretation of it
27:00
is that she concluded her children were unsafe at home, either, again, who knows from her or from
27:09
someone else in the home. I don't know. But it's important that these statements verified by
27:17
neutral people like Sheila Kavanagh are heard. And the reason I find, this is why I've sat
27:25
through lots of trials as a reporter, and the reason I find this trial so gripping
27:31
is precisely because women are so often not heard when, in all kinds of scenarios
27:41
they're either misheard or told they're overstating what's happening to them, or overstating how they feel or thinking too much
27:50
I've been told by men I think too much. Certainly that I talk too much
27:58
But I think what's inherent in this trial that's gripping so many people and certainly gripping me
28:03
is how obvious it is that the moral burden, the moral burden and the labour burden
28:11
I don't mean the giving birth of labour, I mean, the work burden in family life, in caring life
28:16
falls too heavily on women. And no wonder some of them go under with the pressure of that
28:23
Katie in Muswell Hill. Hi, Katie. Hi, Sheila. How are you? I'm fine, thank you
28:27
Have you been watching this? I have been obsessed. Obsessed with this trial
28:34
I love... I'm one of those who love watching, like, serial documentaries
28:38
on Netflix, you know, when a new thing comes out. So this stuff interests me
28:43
But what I find so interesting is how so many of us are rallying around a woman who has been accused of murdering her kids
28:54
You know, normally we would think they're disgusting. You know, they deserve all the harsher sentences
29:00
But we're now rallying around her. We are feeling so sorry for her
29:05
And then the coins will so flip in us now thinking it is 100% her husband
29:10
and it's just become such a fascinating trial, and I do think maybe later on in history this trial might go down in history
29:20
as like the TikTok trial or something like that just because of the way we're all having our own opinions on it
29:28
But it's just so interesting, and I think, you know, myself, I'm a new mother
29:35
and I'm very lucky that I've never gone through postpartum depression but know many women who have the extent of what it can do to someone but i think what's also
29:46
harder from from a mother and even a woman this woman loved her kids you know apparently a few
29:52
weeks before she was searching you know glitter dolls or things to do my kids this weekend so it
29:58
clearly showed someone that's what's going on in the world and i'm not sure what's going on in the world who adored her kids she was checking medicine that was right for them
30:03
and she was and in her diary entries she was chastising herself for not being good enough
30:10
for them and and worrying about leaving the little one to cry because uh you know train sleep sleep
30:16
training they call it don't they where she felt it might be abusive to leave a child crying and
30:20
crying this wasn't a woman who had plans to harm her children no no and i mean and there's all this
30:27
new stuff is now coming out about it where you know her apple watch stopped working you know
30:33
the laptop was downstairs and he might have been it for me nothing now makes sense but
30:39
i do think every woman you know regardless always goes through things for their kids you know i
30:46
i did do the crying out methods with my child and my friends were like i don't know how you did it
30:51
it must be so hard and it is and i think everything you do as a woman and as a mother
30:56
you question everything you're doing is it right my kids and it's judged it's judged constantly
31:02
judged but i think with this trial yes what happened to the kids is heartbreaking in so many
31:09
ways but it's i think it's strange to society how we are standing behind her yet you know you look
31:17
at other people who've murdered people in the past who have a mental illness you know and we
31:24
think they are the devil's evil yeah we don't with this woman yeah and and I think my instinct
31:32
is she will not be found guilty of first-degree murder I agree and and again who knows what might
31:37
come in the future beyond this trial in terms of other people being charged we just don know But I think excuse me it clear that this defence lawyer
31:49
I hear he's come out of retirement, is representing her pro bono because he's so good at these cases
31:53
and he believes in her and he believes in the case and he clearly cares about this woman
31:59
It's clear that he says, he has said it, this cannot be a trial that is not about maternal mental health
32:08
It is central to what's gone on here. And the husband, even if the husband didn't do anything criminal
32:15
this was a woman who was clearly struggling and he has an affair. Well, he only had an affair
32:22
He apparently went hiking. You know, he goes hiking. He was doing marathons
32:25
He was leaving the house when his wife wasn't OK. You know, if you're a loving husband and a loving father
32:32
you would want to make your kids are safe and your wife feel supported
32:36
Yeah, apparently, you know, on the Friday night, he was out with friends. He was doing this on a Saturday
32:42
And he's not shared one tear, whereas she visibly is in... It's broken. She's broken, yeah
32:49
Katie, thank you. I wanted to find time for Sue as well. Sue in Glossop. Hi, Sue. Hiya, good afternoon
32:55
I'm going to make mine short and sweet. I'm appalled by it, absolutely appalled
33:00
As a woman and as a midwife, I think us watching on from the UK
33:05
you know you're talking about a lot of people who are working in a different women's health care system
33:14
I know it's not perfect. I know it's not far from perfect, but just looking at it from this perspective
33:21
I think it an absolute indictment of the way they treating women in America now in general She should be in a hospital It is quite clear that she was incredibly sick I not getting into all of the conspiracy whether it a conspiracy or not
33:35
I don't know. I don't know enough about it. I'm working on the premise that this is a woman on trial
33:40
and she is being accused of murdering her children. And, you know, if that's what happened
33:45
And also the treatment that she had afterwards, was it 14, 13 or 14 different psychiatric medications
33:56
in a six-month period? Yeah, yeah. It's absolutely, it's clinically negligent to me
34:03
I cannot understand how this has made it to trial. I cannot understand
34:10
No, and there was a psychiatrist who took the stand today, this week, who was questioned by the defence
34:15
who admitted she'd never met her in person. Yeah. I mean, it's not fantastic
34:22
but unfortunately it's the way things are often done these days. But just, I mean, if I was looking at that history
34:31
even with my training about perinatal mental health, which is minimal, I'm not a specialist, I'm just a bog standard midwife
34:37
But you've seen it in women, have you? Absolutely. I've looked after women who've had postpartum psychosis
34:43
It is terrifying. Can you give me, obviously not names, but can you give me an example of what it led to
34:49
I've looked after women who have seen things that are not in the room with them, and I've been in the room
34:54
and it's quite obvious that they fully believe it. We sit with them
34:58
They're never left alone with the children. Never for a second left alone with the children
35:02
Because they could hallucinate that that baby is an alligator or whatever Well I got friends who hallucinated after birth when they got home Yeah absolutely It terrifying I had a very long phone call with a woman
35:14
who was in psychosis a few years ago and what she was believing
35:23
was totally out of the realms of any kind of reality. It was utterly terrifying
35:32
I managed to keep her on the phone for long enough to get an ambulance there. Why she was left alone by anyone is beyond me
35:39
certainly by the professionals that should have been looking after her. But this is what the..
35:43
The healthcare system in America is just total... I mean, if we think ours is bad
35:50
even if you've got money there, you can't be looked after and cared for properly if you're a woman
35:56
And I've been watching on some of the things and seeing some of the comments
36:00
and the majority of the comments are made by people in America
36:05
The vitriol towards her is unbelievable. And it's clear from both the calls to our programme
36:11
and the reactions you're seeing online that what lots of women are seeing in this woman is themselves or their friends
36:19
Absolutely. Absolutely. You'll know from listening to my show, my sister is a recently retired midwife
36:25
but she actually in America as well, years and years ago, she was essentially held hostage in a room by a woman who had a psychotic episode immediately
36:34
after giving birth and it's it's it's a terrifying thing and and sue thank you so much for your call
36:40
with your professional expertise as well i do think that's what's um coming through is uh the
36:45
affinity that people have uh with lindsey clancy is because they see their own struggles in hers 346
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