Up next in 10
Alicia Kearns tells LBC that she has written to the Attorney General to review the case. The three boys could potentially have their “unduly lenient” sentences overturned after public outcry. The attorney general is now set to review the sentencing of three teenage boys, two aged 15 and one aged 14, who were not given custodial sentences after raping two girls, 14 and 15, in two separate attacks in Fordingbridge, Hampshire, in November 2024 and January 2025. 00:00 | Henry Riley is joined by Shadow Safeguarding Minister Alicia Kearns 06:46 | Criminal barrister Kate Bex KC weighs in 11:09 | Ben Kentish demands consideration for the victims 24:04 | Caller Andy stresses how the internet has normalised misogyny Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #lbc #henryriley #benkentish #crime #politics #justice #victimsupport #debate #justicesystem #uknews #ukpolitics LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
We start with this shocking case that we spoke about, of course, for a lot of last week
0:05
but really was given an added impetus yesterday when one of the girls who had been raped spoke
0:13
with the BBC. We'll play you a little of what a voice actor had to say on their behalf
0:17
And now the Prime Minister getting involved. I think, understandably, the Chief Secretary
0:23
to the Treasury was also speaking with the BBC yesterday. You'll hear what he had to say
0:28
But Sir Keir Starmer, the prime minister, is now back to review of the sentences in what he described as an appalling case in which two teenage boys were spared jail after raping two lone girls and filming the attacks
0:41
I know it's a bank holiday. I know it's a very heavy and serious story
0:46
But I think it's one we really need to have this morning on LBC. The victims were assaulted in November of 2024 and January of 2025 in Hampshire by the two boys who are both now aged 15
1:00
There was also a third boy who was 14 or is now 14 who was convicted for his involvement in the second attack and himself received a non-custodial sentence
1:11
There's now a review led by Lord Hermer, the Attorney General. the girl who was raped one of the girls has said that the judge's decision to spare them jail
1:22
was like a rock straight in my face you may recall my colleague nick ferrari was talking about this
1:28
case last week when the judge actually praised the um boys not not obviously for anything to do with
1:34
the heinous crimes they committed but in terms of their conduct he said you've done so well so
1:39
we'll have a conversation this morning about the broader state of the criminal justice system
1:43
firstly and rightly in a lot of cases we do have leniency when it comes to youngsters when it comes
1:51
to people who are under the age of 16 under the age of 18 but have we got to a point where we are
1:57
too lenient on youth crime particularly given these two call them what they are rapists will
2:04
not be going to jail at all will not be spending any time behind bars and does this point to more
2:09
broadly a creaking criminal justice system. 0345 6060 973 is the number to call. One of the girls
2:17
spoke with the BBC yesterday. Her words, as I say, not hers, but voiced by an actor
2:22
The words hit like a rock straight in my face. He almost made it seem as if what the boys did
2:29
was not okay, but it was okay in the eyes of the law because they were still children
2:34
Why did I sit and put myself through the pain of going to court? Now we also heard yesterday from the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister
2:40
the Cabinet Minister, Darren Jones, who responded becoming visibly emotional. Those girls deserve justice, as do their families, both for them
2:49
but also for other girls that are put in that position. And quite frankly, other boys need to know that they can't behave in that way and get away with it
2:56
It was very hard to watch because no parent wants their daughter to be in those circumstances
3:01
And you don't want a society in which girls are growing up in those circumstances
3:05
It's very rare you hear a cabinet minister like that, isn't it? Clearly visibly upset
3:09
Let's bring into the conversation Alicia Kearns, who is the shadow safeguarding minister, the Conservative MP for Rutland and Stanford
3:15
Alicia, thank you for joining us. I know this is a case you have spoken a lot about over the recent months
3:21
Firstly, your thoughts on the fact we now have a review led by the Attorney General
3:26
Look, I'm really relieved. However, it's not because he had a choice in the matter
3:30
It's because I referred the sentence as unduly lenient. So we have a scheme in this country
3:35
and your listeners need to know about it because anyone, not just members of parliament
3:39
if you see a sentence that is clearly unduly lenient in your view, you can write to the Attorney General and say, I want you to review it
3:46
and he has to review it as a law officer. Now, that doesn't mean that he will agree that it's unduly lenient
3:52
but essentially the process is he now has to look at it, refer it to law officers
3:56
and so essentially actual judges, and the judges look at it and decide whether or not they think the sentence is unduly lenient
4:03
so I'm really pleased it's moving forward but this is a result of the public speaking out
4:08
and recognising this was an appalling miscarriage of justice. Is this an anomaly, this particular instance
4:14
where we do see effectively two rapists spared jail? So these are serial rapists
4:21
and as you say they had a knife, it was premeditated. Unfortunately I think there's an epidemic of misogyny in our country
4:29
and there are too many cases, I see myself referring cases every couple of months
4:33
where sexual violence does not receive the justice it should have for the survivors
4:38
I had a case two months ago where a 23-year-old asylum seeker raped a 12-year-old girl
4:43
and filmed himself doing so. His sentence was not tough enough. I referred it to the government
4:48
Unfortunately, the government's response was that they agreed that he was immature
4:51
and had good character, and therefore he couldn't have a tougher sentence
4:56
I did point out to the government, you want to give 16-year-olds the vote, but you're saying a 23-year-old was too immature to understand fully what he was doing
5:03
And I think we are in a really difficult place in this because the government is actually considering changing our laws to align with Scotland, where if you're under 25, you're treated as a child
5:13
And they actually want to say that the age of criminal responsibility should go up to 14, which would mean these boys potentially would not be facing justice, some of them at all, let alone the appalling miscarriage of justice we see now, but which I hope we can at least rectify
5:26
Do we have a sort of broader problem with youth crime and our approach to it? i think it's a really interesting one because we've seen a lot of judges coming out on the
5:35
media over the last 24 hours talking about you know we have a duty to make sure when it comes
5:39
to children that the focus on rehabilitation that they still have futures available to them
5:42
but what about these girls futures you know sexual violence you do not just recover and move on from
5:48
women carry it for life in their every interaction with their relationship with their own bodies
5:53
and the fact that the priority seems to be these boys is just so egregious and case after case they
6:00
say well you know we need to rehabilitate actually the law does not put rehabilitation above punishment
6:06
and deterrence and the problem with this case is if you do not put these boys in prison where they
6:11
should be serial gang rapists then what does that do in terms of punishment and more importantly
6:15
what does it do in terms of deterrence and telling other boys and men you do not have an entitlement
6:20
to my body. You do not have an entitlement to other women's bodies. We have to do it not just for those survivors
6:26
who are brave enough to go to court. And the judge saying, oh, well, you know, you should be proud of yourselves
6:30
for having been brave enough to come. How dare he? How dare he
6:34
say that that should be enough for them? They deserve to see long, custodial
6:38
sentences. Thank you, Alicia. Appreciate it. Alicia Kearns is the shadow safeguarding minister and the Conservative MP for
6:44
Rutland and Stanford. Kate Bex is criminal barrister at Red Lion Chambers specialising in murder manslaughter and serious crime Kate again thank you for speaking with us Can I pick up on that point with which I was speaking with Alicia Kearns about
6:59
And notwithstanding, clearly there is strong sentiment to disagree with it, but do you at least understand why there was the decision made by the judge
7:08
even if you don't necessarily agree or not? Yes, I do. I do
7:13
I think, as ever, some of the wording that is used has perhaps inflamed the situation
7:20
But I think we also all need to bear in mind that unless you're actually there in the room and heard verbatim what happened and the exchanges
7:28
then none of us are as well informed as the judge was passing sentence. So the referral to the Attorney General to review whether it was unduly lenient, absolutely every piece of information will be before the person advising on whether it is unduly lenient
7:44
And so they will be in a better place than any of us to review that
7:48
but I think one of the points that Alicia made that I would like to pick up on is
7:53
her statement that she reviewed it and so that this is happening the review as to whether it
8:00
was unduly lenient is happening as a result of action that she has taken it seems extremely
8:06
unlikely that the referral would not have come from the victims themselves in this case so they
8:12
are entitled to apply to have it referred if they feel that it's unduly lenient and in my view
8:19
one point that the minister perhaps shadow minister perhaps ought to bear in mind is that
8:24
victims need to be able to retain control over their own cases and it would be a matter for them
8:32
to speak for themselves but I wonder whether it would have been more helpful to them if they had
8:37
been allowed to make the referral and if it was um presented that the we don't know respectfully
8:43
though it's their case sure but we often you do need someone with um with that gravitas you know
8:49
someone who is a shadow minister to to help i don't you know i don't think they viewed it as a
8:53
hindrance no because because as she set out it's uh an entitlement that if somebody applies doesn't
9:00
matter who they are if somebody applies for it to be reviewed it will be reviewed that is the law
9:06
and so it doesn't need somebody else weighing in for that to happen. I mean, as you say, we weren't in the courtroom
9:12
or I certainly wasn't in the courtroom, and there are various factors at play here, including the age
9:17
but ultimately, as Alicia Kearns again spelt it out, these were serial rapists, they had a knife at one point
9:25
I mean, almost what else is there that we need to know? I agree, there are a number of aggravating factors
9:31
It was planned, possession of a knife, prolonged incident, multiple rapes, filming and some additional violence
9:38
Yeah, I agree. However, the Sentencing Council has issued its guidance and it is a statutory body, has been in existence since 2010
9:49
and the approach in respect of children, that's anybody under the age of 18
9:55
is different to the approach with adults and so that's something that the wider government needs to grapple with
10:03
if there's going to be a shift away from that, because at the moment the judge applied the sentencing guidelines
10:12
as he was required to do so, subject to it being reviewed
10:16
I think what's really the point and what's in danger of getting lost is that this is yet another example of male violence against females
10:26
and there was almost a complete absence of any proposed legislation to deal with that
10:33
in the King's speech just last week. And Kate, lastly, could you help us with what they did receive
10:40
They received these YROs, the Youth Rehabilitation Orders, from the judge where they have 180 days of intense surveillance and supervision
10:51
And that would be if they did receive a custodial sentence, they'd be what spending it in a youth detention centre would have been the alternative
10:57
A Young Defenders Institute, yes, exactly. Or something like that. want a form of youth custody for children
11:08
We start with the story that has united for once our political class this weekend
11:14
united them in horror at the decision by a senior judge to spare two teenage rapists
11:22
any sort of custodial sentence whatsoever, and instead to hand them a youth rehabilitation order
11:29
which, if you're not aware, basically means some counselling or some psychotherapy
11:34
maybe a bit of unpaid work, possibly a curfew for a while. That's it
11:38
And the obvious easy question to ask you this morning is what you think of that sentence
11:43
But we're not going to do that. And we're not going to do that for the sole reason that I don't think anybody in their right minds
11:50
looks at this and thinks, yeah, all right, two separate rapes of two separate young girls
11:56
Just give them a curfew. Just book them a few sessions with a psychologist
12:01
That'll sort it. That's sufficient, isn't it? So it would be easy just to say, isn't this a disgrace
12:07
But I think we probably all agree that it is. Certainly the politicians do
12:12
It's united, reform, Labour, the Conservatives in saying this is absolutely appalling, to use Keir Starmer as the Prime Minister's word
12:19
So I think we've got to work a bit harder this morning. We've got to dig a little bit deeper
12:23
and ask, don't we, not just what you think of this, but how, how if we are all shocked, disturbed
12:34
sickened, whatever word you might want to use by this sentence, we've got to ask how this can happen
12:40
Because I reckon the sort of the public, us, we're probably united in horror at what we're reading
12:47
about this case. And yet it has been allowed to happen, not for the first time. So we've got to
12:52
ask how this happens and what it is a sign of. That's what I want your thoughts on this hour
12:58
on 0345 6060 973. What does it tell us about the justice system in this country
13:06
What does it tell us, I think we've got to be honest here, about the country as a whole
13:11
Because it's easy just to say, this is outrageous, what a disgrace, must be the judge, move on
13:16
But this isn't just an error. This isn't a one-off mistake. This isn't just a sort of slip-up
13:23
The judge in this case, Judge Nicholas Rowland, is a senior judge
13:26
He's been a judge for a very, very long time. He was a well-established barrister before that
13:32
He's one of supposedly the top minds in our criminal justice system. A man who we have entrusted with serious power over people lives Serious power when it comes to protecting the rest of us from the types of criminals that we talking about in this case And yet he is a man it seems and I don want to personalise this too much
13:52
and looks at a pair of child rapists and feels... I mean, I can't speak for him
13:58
but given his comments, and we'll come to those in a moment, some degree at least of sympathy
14:04
of understanding, of concern even. How else do you explain the fact that this judge, during sentencing
14:12
told those boys directly that he didn't want to criminalise them? He said, none of you need to go to prison today
14:21
I think of you as very young and none of you have been in any big trouble before
14:26
Well, that's all right then. Might have raped two teenage girls, but, you know, it's their first offence
14:33
Then he continued, this is the bit that got me. You've all done very well. He's praising the boys
14:38
He's praising the child, the rapists. You've all done very well with the restrictions put in place throughout the trial
14:47
Then he goes on to tell two of them, and there was a third boy that was involved as well
14:52
your problems are quite bad. They were very young, he said, had low intelligence
14:57
a limited understanding of consent and were susceptible to peer pressure. Your problems are quite bad
15:02
I tell you who they're not as bad as, whatever those problems are. The victims in this case, who it seems have been, as so many victims in these sorts of cases are, denied justice once again
15:18
A pair of boys who raped two girls. They are by definition criminals and of the worst sort, I would say
15:25
And the judge tells them he doesn't want to criminalise them. What are they if they're not criminals
15:30
and I'm afraid when you look at the details of this case you're not going to convince me that at 14
15:36
years old they weren't absolutely fully aware of what they were doing and that it was completely
15:41
wrong this wasn't a case of two immature boys getting carried away in the heat of the moment
15:45
and instantly regretting it not that it would have been much better if it was these were two
15:49
separate attacks two separate girls they were premeditated first case they used snapchat to lure
15:56
her to a secluded location before raping her the second one a knife was involved and she was gang
16:02
raped they absolutely knew what they were doing and this judge looked at the case heard those
16:10
details and said none of you need to go to prison today i don't want to criminalize you
16:15
and i keep coming back to how much worse that sentence the complete dismissal of their ordeal
16:22
must have been and must have felt for those girls. And I'd love to hear from you this morning
16:28
if you've ever been in anything like a comparable situation, any sort of crime, perhaps like this, and I hope you haven't
16:34
perhaps something less severe, where you know what it's like, where you know what it's like to see your attacker
16:42
or your perpetrator spared justice. We know what it's like because one of those girls
16:49
incredibly bravely has given an interview this weekend describing what it was like for her
16:54
she described it as being hit in the face with a rock why did i sit and put myself through the pain
17:01
of going to court going through a trial reliving everything because of evidence and watching it all
17:07
happen again it sort of gave me a sense of what's the point what's the point in putting me through
17:13
that just to say it's fine now the judge didn't say it's fine in as many words but it's absolutely
17:20
understandable why that poor girl has that interpretation given what the judge did say
17:27
and i don't want to personalize this too much because clearly this is a systemic problem rather
17:31
than an issue of one man but i i will say i i don't honestly know how that judge can sleep at
17:38
night or sleep easily at least i suspect he can because he's convinced himself he's done the best
17:43
thing by the boys and for their future prospects. He might have even convinced himself he's done the
17:48
best thing by the state by saving a fortune in custodial costs and maybe making it easier to
17:54
rehabilitate those boys if you think that child rapists can be truly rehabilitated. But what
18:02
about the girls? What about the victims? And that brings us to the question that we're asking this
18:09
morning together how can this happen and it happens in my view because we are moving rapidly
18:16
away from a criminal justice system that is based around justice that more and more because of the
18:21
kind of economic climate we're in justice seems to be about cost savings and economic costs and
18:29
benefits where you know the government is cutting sentences criminals are being released early we've
18:34
had a conversation just this week about raising the age of criminal responsibility, all of it
18:39
designed to send fewer people to prison, which in and of itself isn't a bad thing, because the prison
18:45
system in this country is broken. But there is a risk that it is the criminals who are starting to
18:50
become more of the focus and the priority rather than the victims in this justice system right now
18:55
A real risk here, because the one thing you can't put a financial cost in, the one thing that you
19:01
can't put a figure on is being lost in this conversation right now, in this approach to
19:05
justice and the legal system. And that is justice. You can't easily measure it. You can't cost it
19:13
It doesn't fit neatly onto a Whitehall spreadsheet. But those two young girls know what it looks like
19:20
don't they? And they know what it doesn't look like, as does anyone who's been a victim of a crime
19:25
that has to be at the heart of the justice system it cannot just be about how do we save money
19:31
how do we get people out of prison quickly how do we make sure they go on to pay taxes rather
19:35
than claim benefits all of those things are legitimate but they're not as legitimate as
19:40
making sure that two young girls that have suffered the most appalling ordeal see their
19:45
perpetrators brought for justice and they are emblematic they are totemic i'm afraid
19:51
of an issue that is facing thousands upon thousands, God knows maybe millions, of women and girls in this country
19:59
And that brings me to the second, second answer to the question, I think, of how this happens
20:05
Because we are still a country, aren't we, that does not take violence against women
20:09
or girls, like in this case, anyone here as seriously as we should. We're still a country where too often victims get asked
20:16
what they were wearing or how much they'd had to drink or why they didn't take a different route home
20:22
We're still a country where, when high-profile people like Premier League footballers accused of heinous crimes
20:28
countless others leaped to defend them, where the prosecution rates for these types of crimes are woefully low and where too many people some of them it seems in senior position in the judiciary still have an instinct sort of automatic tendency to feel more sympathy or solidarity with the offenders than with the victims so that a big part of it as well
20:51
and there's another element to this i think and this might be more controversial
20:56
and i'm really interested in your thoughts on whether whether you think i'm right to point to
21:00
this as well. But the facts are clear. We still have a justice system, a judiciary in this country
21:06
that is completely and utterly unrepresentative. And I would say wildly out of touch with the lives
21:11
of most people. Almost two thirds of judges went to private schools. Three quarters of them went to
21:17
Oxbridge. Almost three quarters of men. 86% of them are white. They are detached, are they not
21:23
from the lives of the victims in many of the cases that they are asked to manage and handle
21:30
And that is why the people who think that diversity is a sort of dirty word
21:34
that anything to do with equality or equal representation is a sort of woke nonsense
21:40
that's why that view is so misguided, if you ask me. And it's not just misplaced
21:45
If you say that it doesn't matter where you went to school or what gender you are or what skin colour you have
21:50
when it comes to roles like judges, then you could apply this to politicians or newspaper editors
21:55
or all the other people who have real power in this country. I'd say it's dangerous
21:59
because of course who the people making these sorts of judgments are of course what their
22:06
backgrounds are and what shaped how they see the world whether they have any real understanding of
22:11
the lives of these people whether they know people in their own lives who have been in situations
22:15
like this of course this matters of course it matters massively and there's sort of this growing
22:22
political backlash designed to convince us that it doesn't well it does and if you think it doesn't
22:28
ask yourself, would you be of the view, or would you be confident that we would be having this conversation this morning
22:37
had the judge in this case been a younger, state school-educated woman
22:47
And we might be. I'm not saying we definitely wouldn't be. But it would be less likely, wouldn't it? Wouldn't it
22:52
Don't you feel that instinctively? And if you do, then that is why this stuff matters
22:57
representation matters so a justice system that's no longer about justice judges that are completely
23:05
detached in too many cases from the lives of the people in the cases that they are ruling over
23:12
and a country that fundamentally doesn't take violence against girls and women still
23:17
still in 2026 despite all the conversations we've had endlessly about this anywhere near as seriously
23:24
as it should do. I mean, that's what I sort of immediately think of
23:29
when I ask the question, how can this happen? But you might have other views, you might have other explanations
23:34
you might have experience of exactly this. You say, no, no, Ben, you got that wrong, it's not that
23:38
it's something different. Or maybe you think it's one of the things I mentioned but not the other
23:41
I don't know, that's my theory. That's my sort of presumption as to how we start to tackle the question of
23:48
not just isn't this outrageous, but if we accept it's outrageous and we accept it's appalling as the Prime Minister says
23:56
how and why does this happen? Not just in one case, but time and time again
24:03
We're not mentioning enough. We're talking about consent a lot. But what we teach is you've got to look at it
24:09
like you're a 14-year-old boy. You've got to look at it as a 14-year-old boy
24:13
And a 14-year-old boy doesn't really care about consent because they're watching this constantly online
24:20
and I'm quite surprised that more people aren't mentioning misogyny, the promotion of misogyny
24:27
And 14-year-old boys are literally being told, literally, that girls are just for the taking
24:33
Now, it's my opinion, and only my opinion, that our judicial system, I won't call it a justice system anymore
24:40
our judicial system is telling them they're right. If you might have to wash a few cars or a few windows
24:46
to have sex with, to rape this 14-year-old girl, then go for it
24:52
Yeah, what does that tell us about how this judge in this case
24:55
can seize those sorts of crimes? Not as seriously as you and I do, Andy
25:00
But more to the point, Ben, what does it tell us what this judge thinks about children
25:05
Yes. And they are, I'm not going to sing, but they are our future. But I'm going to push back slightly because it's not just this one judge
25:12
This is what I started with. Yes, there's an issue. Yes, as I said, I don't know how he makes rulings like that
25:17
and sleeps at night, frankly. But he is not fundamentally the problem. This is not a one-off example, sadly
25:22
No. And there might be all sorts of various different reasons why they came to that decision, etc
25:27
But what I want to look at is the impact it has on other young people who might be thinking that
25:34
They're all watching pornography online. They're all watching misogyny on Twitter. And it concerns me, what we're feeding their brains with
25:43
and then being surprised when they go out and do this stuff. But then, I mean, absolutely
25:49
And there's a very strong influence that these manosphere influences are having on young boys
25:54
But, you know, in sort of functioning families and functioning homes, there is another force wrestling them back in the right direction
26:02
which are mums and dads and uncles and aunts and grandparents. And in too many families, Andy, I fear that's just not happening
26:09
And that's great, Ben, in the 90s. But now parents haven't got a clue what their children are looking at online
26:15
and if it keeps them quiet But what I'm saying is, even if you're watching
26:19
a lot of the likes of Andrew Tate and the influencers that you're talking about if you see how your
26:25
dad treats your mum with respect if you've got positive male role models in your life, if you've been taught right from
26:31
wrong, I don't think you're susceptible to some bloke on YouTube saying
26:35
women are there for the taking No, you'd absolutely 100% hope not, yeah, absolutely
26:41
but maybe, I don't know what parenting these boys had i don't know what input these boys have had um and i'm not saying that a judicial uh
26:49
custodial sentence would i don't know their past and their history but what i'm saying is we don't
26:54
have the services in place to sit down with these young people and talk about your relationships
26:58
safe relationships misogyny um etc and we talk you know there's a lot of talk about schools needing
27:05
to do that which which they do but they only need to do it it shouldn't need to happen in school
27:10
it's the job of mum and dads or mums or dads or whoever the parent is to teach children right from
27:16
wrong and we're now expecting teachers to do it because it's not happening in too many homes and
27:20
too many families which comes back to graham's point again about whether parents need to be held
27:26
more responsible for the actions of their kids thank you andy yeah absolutely right to point to
27:30
the internet
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