Up next in 10
Ex-Broadmoor psychiatrist reveals what Southport killer's life may be like inside the hospital
Jul 25, 2026
The families of the Southport victims have accused Axel Rudakubana of ‘manipulating the system’ after he was transferred out of prison and into a psychiatric hospital. The 19-year-old was transferred from HMP Belmarsh to the facility at Broadmoor earlier this week after psychologists concluded he could not be safely managed in a prison environment. Aasmah Mir is joined by forensic psychiatrist Dr Bradley Hillier, who completed his specialist training at Broadmoor, to explain what the high-security hospital is like. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #AsmahMir #southport #LBC #uknews LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
I suppose it is a case of whether you think that he should stay in prison
0:06
or whether he should be moved for everyone's security, it seems, to Broadmoor
0:14
Let's get some expert insight into this, shall we, while you ponder this question of whether he should have been moved to Broadmoor
0:20
from Dr Bradley Hillier, who's a forensic psychiatrist who completed his specialist training at Broadmoor High Secure Psychiatric Hospital
0:29
Good afternoon to you. Good afternoon. You will have heard the representative of the Prison Officers
0:36
Association there saying that this man should stay in a cell staring at four walls every day
0:46
What is the difference? What will he be doing if he's in Broadmoor
0:51
well first first of all thank you for uh inviting me to come and comment on this
0:58
i think the first thing that must be said is that these are highly emotive cases highly
1:03
emotive situations and people have very very strong responses for very good reason
1:08
and i think that's why it's important to have discussion about what this situation involves and
1:14
why it may have been deemed necessary to transfer somebody who is a convicted murderer
1:21
to a high secure psychiatric hospital. When a prisoner is transferred from any prison to any secure hospital setting
1:32
there's a very, very robust process that happens. There are psychiatric assessments that evaluate whether or not
1:39
there is a concern about mental health to the extent that it cannot be treated
1:44
in a prison setting. And the prison setting by default with any convicted prisoner
1:50
is the place where any treatment for mental health problems occurs. Now, of course, we do not have the
1:58
benefit of the Mental Health Act in prison, which means that some people who may be presenting with
2:04
a mental health condition that requires them to have treatment, but that they don't appreciate
2:09
that they need treatment, cannot be given that treatment in a prison. That's where treatment is
2:15
given against somebody's will in their best interests and in order to reduce the risks that
2:20
they may pose to their own health and safety and or to others and so i should anticipate that
2:27
this case is no different to many other cases which which forensic psychiatrists all around
2:32
the country in prisons are dealing with with uh sentenced prisoners with mental health problems
2:37
or suspected mental health problems where attempts have been made to treat them in prison and to
2:43
manage the risks associated with that mental illness in prison. And it's not possible or safe
2:49
And so they make a request to the Ministry of Justice with two
2:55
recommendations from Section 12 approved psychiatrists who have expertise in the diagnosis of treatment of mental illness disorder and request that a transfer is made under the Mental Health Act to a secure hospital So the Minister of Justice looks at that and decides
3:14
whether or not the criteria are met because psychiatrists of course we are treating clinicians
3:21
we are doctors, we are not lawyers, we are not judges, we are not politicians, we are there to
3:26
treat people and to say when we can and can't treat somebody for a mental illness that we think
3:32
that somebody may have. And when that has reached the end of the road in the prison that you can do
3:38
we have to ask to transfer that person to a hospital. And the level of security has to be
3:44
contiguous with the risks that that person poses. And clearly in this case, only the highest level
3:49
of security would be appropriate. Okay. Can I just interrupt for a second? And I don't want
3:54
need to comment on necessarily on a particular case understand that but just to try to get us
3:59
to understand that the lawyer for the three bereaved families has said this is chris walker
4:05
they don't believe the merits of the transfer on the basis of a mental health issue and the calling
4:10
for more information from ministers and this is what chris walker says in my mind this is a new
4:15
event this is something which occurred while he was at prison and we at this stage don't believe
4:20
the merits of it in terms of him because i've seen no evidence at all until today which suggests
4:24
that he has a significant mental health disorder. We do have an evil person
4:29
but being evil does not mean that you're suffering with psychosis of some sort
4:34
We need to know, is this a single event? Is this a recurring event? Is this him playing the system
4:39
And we need those answers. So speaking generally, can you understand why there seems to be a gap
4:49
in credibility for the lawyer at least? I can't comment on what the lawyer is basing his views on
4:58
Obviously, as I said earlier, this is a highly emotive case and three children were killed in this particular instance
5:08
And I don't think anybody would ever question the strength of feeling
5:13
that people would have about something like that. what i can say though is that this is not an unusual process or a special process and it's
5:24
not one that is taken lightly under any circumstances because as i said the transfer
5:30
of a prisoner to a mental health setting has a very high threshold that has to be met and that
5:37
threshold has various checks and balances in it which includes prolonged assessment usually in a
5:43
prison setting and subsequent assessment by external doctors from hospitals, usually more
5:50
than one hospital at this point, if a high secure service is being requested. And then a review by
5:56
the Ministry of Justice of the reasons that that transfer is requested. Now, that doesn't necessarily
6:02
mean that a particular diagnosis has been has been lighted on It doesn mean that there is a intention for somebody to stay in hospital forever This is an action that stays under continuous review and internally and externally no doubt
6:22
Okay, I just want to ask you, and it goes back to a question I asked at the beginning, because there's only one person in this conversation who has any experience of being inside Broadmoor
6:29
and that is you. Can you tell us what the difference between life as someone in Broadmoor is to someone who has been in Belmarsh
6:39
What are the tangible differences on a day to day basis? You know, are you how long are you? I mean, is it is it still a cell
6:48
Is it is it a bedroom? Are you confined for 23 out of 24
6:53
Just can you tell us what the difference is? Yes, I have worked in Broadmoor in the old hospital
6:58
the hospital was rebuilt just before the pandemic as you said the old hospital was Victorian essentially
7:06
and it's now a new hospital that's modern and fit for purpose
7:10
in keeping with it being an NHS hospital Belmarsh of course is a prison and it is a top security prison
7:20
a category A prison and so they are two very different environments
7:24
run by two entirely different organisations One is the NHS and health basis, and the other is Ministry of Justice and a criminal justice punitive basis
7:36
Now, the environments are very, very different in many ways, but have some characteristics in common
7:44
because the common theme between all of these sorts of environments, whether it's a high secure health setting like Broadmoor
7:50
or a highly secure prison setting like Belmarsh, is security is the foundational aspect of how they are all run
7:57
So in terms of the security in a hospital setting, we think of this in terms of having the procedural security
8:03
the physical security and the relational security. Now, what that means in terms of the physical security, this is literally the sort of the 40 foot walls
8:10
double skin, 40 foot walls around Broadmoor and multiple doors and airlocks and things like that to get through into the individual wards
8:19
And of course, within Broadmoor itself, there are heightened levels of security within different wards as well to reflect the risks that certain people may pose
8:30
And the criteria to be in Broadmoor as opposed to another lower level of security
8:35
So we have a medium secure network of hospitals around the UK. That is to pose grave and imminent danger to the public, if at large
8:43
So the core focus in all of these establishments is to prevent people from escaping
8:47
Now, where the differences start to arise is the physical environment and the routine and the fact that everybody in Broadmoor is detained under the Mental Health Act and can therefore be treated with medication, including against their will
9:02
And subject to essentially measures that are required to be taken to reduce the risks associated with their mental health
9:11
Now I think there a misconception that these kinds of establishments are like some sort of holiday camp or a spa or something like that They really are not Well I sure they not
9:23
But if I were to, you know, put you on the spot here and say, is being in whatever it is that you, wherever it is that you stay in Broadmoor, a bedroom or unit, whatever it is, is that a nicer, inverted commas, experience than being in a cell in Belmarsh
9:41
Yes or no? Well, I think it would depend on whether you're very psychotic and unable to have treatment or whether you're being given treatment against your will and you don't think you need it
9:54
I don't think you can make the direct comparison because the environment is only one aspect
10:00
The regime is a prison regime in Belmarsh. In Broadmoor, it's a health focus
10:07
And so the aim of the health focus is to reduce the risk that people pose associated with their mental health problems
10:15
That's not the focus of Belmarsh. That's to contain people, but also to rehabilitate them so that when they're released, it should be safer for them to be in society
10:26
OK, can I just ask you a final question, which is I know that the last time anyone escaped from Broadmoor was 1993
10:31
You know, this man is a very dangerous man and he's committed horrendous crimes
10:39
Is he safer there than he was in Belmarsh, as in, you know, less of an escape risk
10:48
I think in terms of escape, I think both of those establishments are extremely secure in terms of escape
10:55
I think what is safer potentially is if the reasons that he's been or anyone is transferred from Bellmarsh to Broadmoor is because there are risks associated with something that Bellmarsh can't do something with, which might be to treat a mental illness
11:13
Then it's safer for everybody that he's in the place where treatment for an illness can be given or anybody for that matter
11:21
Dr Hillier, thank you very much for your expertise and your insight. We're very grateful, of course. That's Dr Bradley Hillier, who's a forensic psychiatrist and who completed his specialist training at Broadmoor High Secure Psychiatric Hospital. So that gives you a bit more to go on and I appreciate none of us are experts
11:38
this is a very emotive case though and you can understand why the lawyers and the families
11:45
of those poor young girls do not want it even if it seems as if this man is playing the system
11:54
they don't want him to have the power and I completely understand that
11:58
but I think some of the commentary around this that he's going to have a nice cushy time in hospital
12:02
and all the rest of it I think that's a bit wider the mark but I can still understand
12:07
why it will be galling if you have lost your daughter in those circumstances
12:12
So the question I'm asking is, do you think that the Southport killer should have been moved
12:18
to Broadmoor Hospital from Belmarsh Prison
#news