Up next in 10
As more than 200 extra Police are sent to Middlesbrough after violence linked to last weekend's A66 crash, James O'Brien asks: What's going on?
Seven people, including two police officers, died in the crash near Middlesbrough on Saturday and soon after a house dire claimed the lies of a woman and a seven year-old girl.
James O'Brien tries to get to the bottom of the violence and digs into the gang culture that may have led to a 'culture of fear'.
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
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0:00
Now, receiving, a Middlesbrough MP has described the intimidation felt by residents as terrorism
0:05
after nine people were killed and police announced 19 arrests in less than a week
0:10
Add to that the fact that we discovered yesterday 200 police officers have been drafted in
0:16
from around the north of England, from neighbouring forces, following a series of violent incidents since that head-on car crash early on Saturday
0:26
that killed seven people, including two police officers. Two more people, seven-year-old Valentina Foster
0:33
and her aunt Natalie MacDonald, died in a house fire on Wednesday
0:37
with police investigating possible links between that and wider organised crime, links that have not been definitively established
0:45
Let me make that absolutely clear. But I don't think it's a morning
0:48
for condemning some of the coverage. It seems to me to be fair, at least
0:56
under siege is the front page that the daily mirror chooses to go with describing a brutal
1:01
gang war that has left families terrified um the daily telegraph which is traditionally perhaps a
1:09
slightly more sober organ than some of the tabloids police surge to tackle northern gang wars and this
1:15
reports the um the police officers flooding into middlesbrough amid fears of escalating
1:22
gang violence and the sun. How did UK town become a war zone
1:29
And that features a photograph on the front page of little Valentina Foster
1:33
that is, I mean, absolutely heartbreaking. And the sun don't hold back
1:38
I mean, as far as I'm aware, there aren't any definitive links between the violence and this particular incident
1:44
but they go with us. 200 cops sent to tackle gang feud that killed girl
1:50
Seven. Um, I've got no idea where to start, really, this morning
1:56
I mean, I'm tempted to ask you that question, so let me tell you now, the phone line, if you want it, is open
2:02
How did UK town become a war zone? I mean, you may object to the use of that
2:06
What is going on in Middlesbrough, really, is the question that I would ask you
2:10
because it seems to me that this looks like a real-life version
2:14
of the attempts by various online racists and weirdos to depict London as some kind of terrible place
2:22
I can't, there must be streets in Middlesbrough that are lovely and you walk down
2:27
It's not a town I know at all. I'm quite well travelled for a London-based member of the media
2:32
I know my way around quite a lot of England, both north of London and south of London
2:37
but I know very little about Middlesbrough. A very, very good friend of mine hails from there
2:43
but he's lived down here for most of his life. I know Brian Clough was from there as a childhood Nottingham Forest fan
2:49
I think Brian Clough met his wife in Ria's Creamy Ices, a famous Middlesbrough institution that is no more
2:58
But I don't know enough about it to even begin to speculate
3:02
on the question of why it would be a particularly virulent victim
3:08
of changing social norms. Because that's the point. What's going on in Middlesbrough is not going to be unique
3:14
but it seems to be happening more and worse in Middlesbrough than it is in this country almost anywhere else
3:21
It is, for example, measurably, the most dangerous place to live in England and Wales
3:27
This is according to official crime figures. And to my embarrassment, if you'd asked me last week
3:32
what the most dangerous place was to live in in England and Wales, I don't think Middlesbrough would have made my top ten
3:38
I don't really know what would have done but you'd lean towards big cities and then you be reminded that it has to be per capita You have to divide crime by the number of people living there or divide the number of people living there by the number of crimes to get an idea of what the most dangerous areas are
3:53
But over the past year, people living in the Teesside area were also most at risk of being murdered
4:01
23,419 crimes in Middlesbrough over the previous 12 months. a crime rate of about 150 crimes per 1,000 people
4:14
And a lot of the other worst places to be in this context
4:18
are in that neck of the woods, Redcar, Stockton, Hartlepool. And, I mean, we are a London-centric bunch in the media
4:27
for good or for ill, we just are. Most of us are based in London. And we really extend our perspectives beyond the M25, I suppose
4:37
but I have no idea what it is about Middlesbrough that perhaps explains these phenomena
4:46
And that's my first question for you, OK? Nine minutes after ten is the time
4:50
Why is Middlesbrough so... Well, you know, I don't want to upset you either
4:57
So what word would you use here? Vulnerable? Why is Middlesbrough such a dangerous place
5:03
There we go. It's the most dangerous place to live in England and Wales. And, of course, you can answer that with either the explanation of what's going on
5:12
It's a dangerous place because of gangs and drugs and violence, or it's a dangerous place because of the reasons why gangs and drugs and violence
5:20
have managed to take a hold on a town in ways that other towns of similar size
5:25
and similar socioeconomic status have simply not. That's the bit I'm interested in, the specifics, if you like, of Middlesbrough
5:34
0345 6060 973 is the number that you need. I suspect, and I could be wrong about this
5:44
I would love to be wrong, but I don't think I am. I suspect that if the perceived culprits
5:51
were of an ethnic minority heritage or background, then the flavour and the tone of the coverage
5:58
would be very different in modern Britain, in Brexit Britain, in the land that Nigel built
6:02
I suspect if this could in some way be linked to immigration or it could be offered up as an example of some form of human hierarchy, then we would be talking about it or most of the media would be talking about it in a very different way
6:17
Quite a few of you making that point already in my inbox
6:22
And I think it's true, but I don't know that it's helpful to the conversation that I want to have today
6:26
this is a place where we would talk equally about events regardless of the ethnicity of the people who committed them
6:34
it's a very unpopular position in the British media but if you have for example a sex offender
6:39
then my thoughts go first to the victim and then to the authorities
6:43
I don't think first, oh what colour was his skin that's going to define how I cover this
6:47
or what country was he born in that's going to be the thing that I consider to be most important here
6:51
and the same here You know, make that point by all means
6:57
but what is it about this town that explains this plight, this current situation
7:04
And let me say some things about towns I do know. I mean, you know, I grew up in a town called Kiddermist
7:11
smaller than Middlesbrough. I was there at the weekend. The restaurant I worked in when I was a kid is still boarded up
7:18
They've knocked down the Woolworths and replaced it with Parkland. That took 30 years, 25 years to do
7:24
And the restaurant I worked in when I was a kid survived for a while. I mean you know it didn shut when I was working there but it still boarded up ten years after closing down And that does something to a town But towns up and down the country are like that
7:39
The death of industry, all of these things will be part of it. The death of industry is going to be relevant, perhaps, but that's not unique to Middlesbrough
7:48
So that's the first half. That's 52% of this phone-in. What is going on in Middlesbrough
7:55
And why is Middlesbrough the most dangerous place to live in England and Wales
8:00
0345 6060 973 is the number that you need to do that
8:07
But to extend the conversation beyond the North East to potentially every corner of this country
8:14
I also want you to tell me what it's like to live in the midst of criminality
8:25
this is actually one of the really strange things about London and other big cities
8:31
is that we often have great wealth living cheek by jowl with great poverty
8:36
It's the Notting Hill Carnival this weekend, one of the most magnificent events in the capital's annual calendar
8:42
And Notting Hill is an area I know well, an area where I couldn't afford to raise my family
8:47
despite it also being an area in the sort of North Kensington environ
8:52
on's near where Grenfell Tower uh still stands the the poverty there is off the charts it's
8:59
among some of the poorest parts in the country but you can walk yards and be in millionaire's
9:05
row you can be you can walk yards from um some of the poorest social housing in the land to some of
9:11
the finest mansions in the entire country and that that perhaps means that it's hard for a London
9:17
based observer or commentator to get a proper handle on on the idea of a town where entire
9:24
streets or entire estates are riven by crime for example in west london not far from notting hill
9:32
there is a there's an estate that has had more than its fair share of crime and gun crime
9:37
but it sits right next to the estate that i used to live on which was a sort of victorian workman's
9:42
cottages some of them still social housing some of them had fallen into private hands so you would
9:47
have people ferrying their children to private school and then three streets down you'd have
9:51
police tape up because there'd been another shooting um and that it means that you don't
9:56
it doesn't feel like a town has teetered on the brink and fallen it feels like a town has pockets
10:03
of difference and diversity wealth and poverty uh Middlesbrough as it is being portrayed and the
10:09
other thing you must do today is tell me if this portrayal is unfair and lots of other towns as
10:14
well where gangs hold sway they're going to be able to set the tone for the entire area
10:20
when i lived on that estate and we got burgled i remember the police telling me that they
10:25
could be fairly confident who'd done it so with two families on that estate who were responsible
10:30
or two households on that estate who were responsible for most of the burglaries and
10:35
most of the crimes and in my naive middle class way i didn't understand why they couldn't kick the
10:40
door in and go and rescue my laptop and mobile phone but of course that's not how it works without
10:45
evidence but it didn't feel like my area was defined by the crime do you see what i mean
10:52
i'm reading about the most dangerous place to live in england and wales i'm reading about empty
10:57
streets i'm reading about ghost towns and i'm reading about decent people living in fear of
11:02
feral humans of of gangsters i don't like that word it sounds almost glamorous makes you think
11:09
of Al Capone, right? And the untouchables. Of criminals, of violent criminals who don't
11:14
care who they hurt or how they hurt them What it like to be a normal person living in these abnormal circumstances 0345 6060973 So I got a Middlesbrough specific question that I really need your help with because I got
11:30
nothing. What is going on in your town? Or if it's a town, you know, you don't need to be in it
11:36
but you know it. What is going on in Middlesbrough? 0345 6060 973
11:43
And the second question becomes, I can get my head around this
11:48
I know what hypervigilance is. I talked to you last week, and I'm glad I did
11:53
because it resonated with an awful lot of you, judging by some of the messages you sent me
11:58
that the events, the stories, the things that move from our heads to our stomachs
12:03
when you feel something in your stomach, that is a form of fear
12:08
It doesn't, I mean, it can be rational or irrational, but when your tummy, when your stomach is in knots
12:13
because of threat, because of fear, and the thing about that is that for the massive majority of us
12:23
it comes and goes. When it's in place, it's horrible. You can wake up in the morning with it in the pit of your belly
12:30
and you wish you could get rid of it. You can't reason it away. You can't talk yourself into feeling better
12:35
because you're frightened of something. Now, it might be that you're frightened of your boss
12:39
or you're frightened of losing your job or you're frightened of having a fight at school later today
12:44
but you're frightened of something specific and contained which means that one day soon you're going to wake up in the morning
12:51
and it's not going to be there. But I want to know what it's like to be in an area
12:57
where you're frightened of something unspecific and uncontained. You're living somewhere dangerous
13:04
where the danger has nothing to do with you, where you are, if you like, exposed to threat
13:13
You're exposed to peril and danger because it's going on around you all the time
13:17
and yet it's got nothing to do with you. Because that form of hypervigilance
13:21
that knot in your stomach is, well, I imagine, is permanent. Isn't it
13:30
That must be a terrible way to live. I mean an absolutely exhausting way to live
13:35
it's as if that fight or flight impulse that we all have is constant rather than event specific
13:43
fight or flight is the natural human response to danger something in front of you that threatens you appears
13:48
and you have an impulse either to run away or to fight that's why it's called fight or flight
13:53
and that's in your stomach that's the nervous system what would it be like
13:58
what is it like? and this doesn't have to be a Middlesbrough of course This could be anywhere where criminals have the run of the place
14:06
I've never lived in a town like that. I've never lived in a street like that where criminals have the run of the place
14:12
What's that like? 034560973. When my wife was at university in Liverpool, a local criminal died
14:23
And she still talks about this now. It was as if, it was like Diana Princess of Wales
14:28
It was an entire street covered in flowers. I don't know whether it was a sort of throwback to what people used to say about Ronnie and Reggie Cray
14:35
or you were safe when they were in charge. You could leave your front door open, which for people of my generation always sounded really weird
14:42
It's not like that now. It's, well, I don't know what it's like, except that it's constant and it must be terrible to live with
14:49
And it doesn't happen only in Middlesbrough. It quite possibly happens to you
14:53
And if it does, I want you to tell me what it's like
14:59
So what's going on in Middlesbrough? And what's it like to live in a community that is controlled by criminals
#news