Up next in 10
Welcome to Adaptable | Behavior Explained! This episode goes over the benefits of Ketamine Assisted Psychotherapy, featuring a conversation with Kelly Ohoro and Dr. Eddie Shahnaz. We explore how ketamine, when used in a therapeutic setting, can support breakthroughs in treatment-resistant depression, PTSD, and anxiety. Learn how this innovative approach can enhance emotional processing, reduce mental health symptoms, and open the door to deeper healing.
I'm Kelly O'Horo, Attachment based EMDR Therapist, EMDRIA Consultant, and Advanced Trainer. I'm a mom of 5, Nonna of 5, wife, and a healer. I have the honor of spending my workdays walking along side people while they brave their healing journeys. I try to live with the generous assumption that we're all doing the best we can with what we know. Therapists are teachers for the "life stuff" and "emotional vocabulary" that may not have been learned due to gaps in our care givers capabilities. In the last 15 years I've learned that people are freaking amazing, resilient, and inspiring. Most importantly, we are hardwired for connection and for healing!
I hope to bring an authentic, compassionate, and unpolished approach while we explore a variety of topics such as parenting, marriage, relationships, dating, trauma, attachment, adoption, depression, addiction, anxiety, and love! There's a why for all behaviors and an explanation that makes perfect sense as emotion is at the root of it all.
-- Links --
https://linktr.ee/kellyohorolpc
https://youtu.be/rLnARKekvgo
https://www.emdria.org/find-an-emdr-therapist/
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:06
hi everyone I'm Kelly O'Horo and this is
0:09
Adaptable Behavior Explained hi
0:12
everybody thank you so much for tuning
0:14
in today to Adaptable i'm Kelly O'Horo
0:16
your host and I'm so excited to have you
0:18
here for a topic that's got a lot of
0:21
buzz in the mental health field right
0:23
now and that's the subject of ketamine
0:25
assisted psychotherapy i have with me a
0:27
friend and colleague Dr dr eddie Shaaz
0:30
who I worked with for seven and a half
0:33
years she worked at Infinite Healing and
0:34
Wellness with me and continued on her
0:37
own to to go do her own thing now and
0:39
I'm so excited to have you here today so
0:42
thank you for being here tell us a
0:43
little bit about yourself so I'm Dr
0:45
eddie i'm a psychiatric nurse
0:47
practitioner and I focus on integrative
0:51
care and holistic care awesome and if
0:53
you want to learn more about that we
0:55
have another episode that was back in
0:57
the deck before this one dropped so
0:59
check that one out for more on Dr eddie
1:01
and integrative healthcare and a whole
1:03
slew of great uh nuggets of information
1:05
related to psychotropics and mental
1:07
healthcare so but today we're going to
1:08
zero in on ketamine assisted
1:10
psychotherapy and so tell me a little
1:12
bit about your history and what made you
1:15
decide you wanted to go get trained to
1:16
be a prescriber in this arena well I
1:19
think that the research is robust and I
1:22
was having clients come in to see me
1:24
that had already had an experience with
1:26
ketamine and they were showing such
1:30
improvement with their anxiety levels
1:32
improved sleep decreased emotional
1:36
reactivity and so that really got me
1:39
interested in what does it really look
1:41
like what does it do to your brain and
1:43
and how can I help more clients kind of
1:45
reach their best self right it's funny i
1:48
Infinite Healing and Wellness was late
1:50
to the game on this and I was really
1:52
phobic i didn't want to jump in and be
1:54
you know like too fast on this bandwagon
1:57
because I've always been kind of a
1:59
thinker of you know you can't put a
2:01
band-aid on a broken ankle you've got to
2:03
do the heavy lifting and do the hard
2:04
work to get to healing and wholeness and
2:06
I'm also not a fan of like popping on a
2:09
quick fix because I think that that's
2:10
one of the main problems in our culture
2:12
and country in general is like everybody
2:14
doesn't want to do the hard thing to get
2:16
to the good place right and and so I was
2:19
really reluctant to go and research and
2:22
I think about six years into its
2:24
popularity increasing I was like I've
2:27
got to figure this out because I'm
2:28
seeing the changes and the the research
2:30
cannot be denied right and so I I went
2:32
ahead and went and got trained and talk
2:34
about humbling experience in like I
2:37
thought I understood helping you know
2:39
trauma work and then I learned this and
2:41
is neurogenic the right word for it like
2:43
the pathways that develop so quickly
2:45
right and I think that's the wonderful
2:47
thing about ketamine is that you were
2:49
saying you know it's we have to do the
2:51
hard work and yet when clients are using
2:54
ketamine as a tool in their integration
2:57
process and their just processing their
3:00
trauma it actually really helps them
3:03
process this in a way where it's more
3:05
comfortable well I don't know how to
3:06
explain that but so it's an anxolytic
3:10
and so you know when you think about the
3:13
benefit of ketamine assisted
3:14
psychotherapy because it's an anxolytic
3:16
clients will at the onset of doing this
3:19
kind of treatment they tend to be
3:20
anxious but because of the anxolytic
3:23
properties they are not anxious while
3:24
doing the experience which I think is so
3:27
wonderful and I think that's one of the
3:29
benefits that you likely have seen so
3:31
much of too but the other piece that I
3:33
think has been so beautiful and I'm I'm
3:35
sure you could attest to that too is the
3:38
defenses that are part of the right you
3:41
know the makeup of our trauma work and
3:43
our walls and our protectors from like
3:46
IFS language our managers you know all
3:49
of these things that get in the way and
3:50
keep us maybe too intellectual in our
3:52
trauma work or whatever else it sets
3:54
that default mode down it's a good way
3:56
to put it i think we could say something
3:58
like it helps decrease the rigidity with
4:02
the patterns and processes that you know
4:05
are associated with those feelings and
4:07
emotions and that are associated with
4:10
that trauma right and so when you think
4:12
about all the work people want to do
4:14
I've experienced you know their head
4:17
gets it right their head is there
4:19
they're like I've done all this EMDR
4:21
with you Kelly you know we've been at
4:22
this for a long time i just want my body
4:25
to be freaking caught up with what my
4:27
head knows to be true and we're doing
4:28
all of this you know integrative work
4:30
with IFS and parts work related to and
4:33
sematic experiencing and things like
4:35
that in conjunction with my EMDR
4:37
approach and getting them in to do
4:40
ketamine assisted psychotherapy it just
4:42
softens all those walls and people fly
4:45
through their EMDR work right you know
4:47
if they've done a lot of the pre-work
4:48
for sure what's been your experience
4:50
with patients who maybe didn't do a lot
4:53
of you know I think it can happen both
4:55
ways people want to at the onset do
4:57
ketamine assisted psychotherapy and then
4:59
do more of the EMDR work or in my
5:02
experience my clients have mostly done a
5:04
lot of EMDR first and then have done
5:06
some ketamine assisted psycho
5:08
psychotherapy after that what would you
5:10
say would be pros and cons to either
5:12
approach so I think the approach that I
5:14
like best and the approach that I think
5:16
has the best outcomes it's for clients
5:19
that have already gone through a lot of
5:21
the processing and have a lot of
5:22
experience with EMDR uh sematic work or
5:27
just building the skills that they need
5:29
in general right um so when they're not
5:32
just jumping into ketamine and expecting
5:34
it all to just happen naturally you know
5:37
that's when we're seeing most of those
5:40
really robust responses where clients
5:42
are just feeling better in general you
5:44
know they're able to titrate down on
5:46
medication they're sleeping better
5:48
they're they're just in a better place
5:50
emotionally yeah I would I would say
5:53
that I I totally agree with that it's
5:55
almost like if they have an
5:56
understanding of their internal
5:58
landscape how they work why they work
6:00
the way they work a bit about their
6:02
history and why they respond the way
6:04
that they do in certain experiences with
6:07
you know with with environmental
6:08
triggers and their and how they show up
6:11
and they have such an acute awareness or
6:14
an astute awareness might be a better
6:16
way to say it of what's happening and
6:18
then they can drop in in their ketamine
6:20
experiences with you know a specific set
6:23
setting intention and be able to really
6:26
lean in in such a more vulnerable way i
6:29
I've seen such beautiful outcomes and as
6:32
a therapist you know I think what's been
6:34
really cool is dropping expectations and
6:37
really having to model that for a client
6:39
when they have all of these desires of
6:41
of what they want it to look like and
6:44
every time is different with every
6:45
patient is different like there's no I I
6:47
I really got nothing for you when they
6:49
go "What do you think's going to
6:50
happen?" I can go "I can tell you what
6:51
happened for me." Yeah you know I went
6:52
through the whole six series done a
6:54
couple of touch-ups and I I can tell you
6:56
what that was like but everybody in our
6:58
cohort and there were eight of us had a
7:00
different experience every single time
7:03
and so it's not predictable which is
7:04
maybe part of what we want to look at is
7:06
like it's okay to not need to know
7:08
exactly yeah i agree with that and I
7:10
think if clients have a background with
7:12
IFS work right that really helps them
7:15
understand the process and really helps
7:18
with the integration piece right you
7:19
know just for for those of you who
7:20
aren't familiar with IFS that stands for
7:23
internal family systems it's an approach
7:25
a theory of an approach it's not of of
7:28
pathology like of structural
7:29
dissociation or what have you but it's a
7:31
theory on how we can approach parts of
7:34
self where we have developed adaptations
7:36
that are not serving us and they're
7:38
defensive in nature and they're really
7:40
meant to be temporary at the time of the
7:42
events or the experiences or navigating
7:45
our familial experiences that are
7:47
perceived as dangerous and we adapt so
7:50
that we can navigate these situations
7:52
and then we bring those adaptations into
7:54
our current life experiences and often
7:56
times those things are in the way like
7:58
you know getting too angry or shutting
8:00
down and getting too small or being
8:02
frenetically anxious in the absence of
8:04
someone in a more preoccupied anxious
8:06
attach attachment way so with IFS we
8:08
address the internal workings and so I
8:10
think you're right the knowledge of
8:13
what's going on me in me as a client
8:15
gives me a lot more insight as to what I
8:17
would like to address
8:19
process of so talk to us about some
8:21
maybe even thinking of a case example
8:23
where you were like night and day from
8:25
the work you had done you knew they were
8:26
doing work with an EMDR therapist and
8:28
then you saw you know a pretty specific
8:31
or out you know outstanding change can
8:33
you talk about a client yeah so I'm
8:35
thinking of one particular client who
8:37
for years and years has just had the
8:40
worst sleep regardless of you know
8:42
medication that they've been on whether
8:44
that's benzo or hypnotics or
8:47
anti-depressants anti-anxiety meds um
8:50
has been through a plethora of therapy
8:53
EMDR processing um pretty significant
8:56
trauma history and sleep has always been
8:58
the biggest challenge so for a very long
9:01
time she kind of resisted you know
9:03
whether or not ketamine was the right
9:05
thing feeling very anxious about you
9:08
know the dissociation that could occur
9:10
and what that would look like for her
9:12
it's a dissociative so that's that's
9:13
happening yes um so once she went
9:16
through the full six sessions she has
9:19
actually um gotten off of most of her
9:22
medication the most important thing
9:24
she's gotten off of her sleep meds so
9:26
right now we're just doing supportive
9:27
care and she's doing wonderful and she's
9:30
able to shut her brain off at night
9:32
she's able to sleep through the night
9:34
and she doesn't have you know that fight
9:37
or flight right is just it's turned off
9:40
a little bit she's able to sit within
9:44
herself and you know when triggers come
9:46
up she's able to identify what it is
9:48
that's bothering her and not ruminate
9:51
about it right before she sleeps right
9:52
there's more space between that stimulus
9:54
and her response so that she can kind of
9:56
attest to the truth of her current
9:58
reality right right so awesome you know
10:00
I think that it got a lot of buzz
10:02
because my experience has been you know
10:04
the the big uh the big push for ketamine
10:07
assisted psychotherapy started with
10:09
ketamine clinics that are primarily run
10:11
by anesthesiologists and so they don't
10:13
have any mental health training
10:14
background integrative work with trauma
10:16
like yeah they know how to administer a
10:18
medication but they don't understand
10:20
that like um a lot of this trauma
10:22
happened in the absence of a caregiver
10:24
that was supportive or safe and so if
10:26
they're going into an associative state
10:28
in a dark room by themselves that's
10:30
terrifying and so I became interested in
10:33
becoming trained primarily because we
10:35
were kind of cleaning up the mess of
10:36
people who had gone that route desperate
10:39
for help desperate for support and at
10:41
the same time you know they got the
10:43
autonomic nervous system reset but they
10:46
were kind of additionally traumatized by
10:48
the experience because they felt alone
10:50
and sometimes you feel a little
10:52
untethered in that experience and I mean
10:54
it's so beautiful to be able to put your
10:55
hand out and have someone who's a
10:57
grounding element of safety and trust
10:59
and support with you in that experience
11:01
so maybe talk to us a little bit about
11:03
any clients you've had that have gone
11:05
either route and what their experiences
11:07
have been so similarly I've had clients
11:09
that have gone gone through like the
11:12
intravenous ketamine process right and
11:15
both that were you know um suicidal at
11:18
the time depressed or having really
11:21
significant trauma responses and their
11:24
experience has been completely different
11:27
you know doing the intravenous versus
11:29
doing like the oral or the intramuscular
11:32
route with a therapist actually going
11:35
through the reintegration process
11:37
whereas when they did the intravenous
11:40
route it was exactly what you said they
11:42
went in there they did the treatment and
11:45
that was it there was no no followup to
11:47
that and so they weren't able to process
11:50
what they experienced and those memories
11:52
and feelings and emotions they just kind
11:54
of sat with those and that's not really
11:56
beneficial yeah and we we're not
11:58
bringing like you know heart to mind and
12:00
connecting the body to the mind and I
12:02
and the other thing I love about it is I
12:04
I really believe in the triad of healing
12:06
you know it's mental it's physical it's
12:08
spiritual and I think the part of this
12:10
this that gives us access to this other
12:13
dimension of imagination and you know
12:16
elements of the experience that that as
12:18
a therapist I don't I would never even
12:21
consider saying and also how dare I
12:23
because who am I to say what your
12:25
spiritual you know travel should look
12:27
like and so for the fact that this gives
12:29
us access to like that inner self in a
12:31
way that just talk therapy or bottomup
12:34
therapies just don't give us access to
12:36
me has been so beautiful and and I know
12:39
that in my own experience um and I'll
12:41
share a little bit about it i um one of
12:44
my sessions I was I was trying to figure
12:46
out it was actually input from one of my
12:47
sons he says "Mom you come in too hot
12:50
you've got all these opinions about what
12:51
it is you think I need to be doing and
12:53
what I make up about it is you don't
12:55
trust me that I'll figure it out or if I
12:57
do mess up that I'll be able to be
12:58
resilient enough to figure it out and I
12:59
was like whoa that's a hard message as a
13:01
mom to hear and he's so right and so I I
13:04
you know he told me that in between our
13:06
first and our second experience and I
13:07
went in and I was like I need to explore
13:09
this because the last thing that I want
13:11
is for someone that I love to feel
13:14
reluctant to come to me about things
13:16
because the because of the way that I
13:18
you know in a way make it about me
13:19
because I'm anxious that he's going to
13:21
have a hard thing and I try to insert my
13:24
opinion and I don't stay in my lane and
13:26
all of those things and so I went in and
13:27
I was like what is the part of me that
13:29
does that and what is that about and you
13:31
know I had the most wild and beautiful
13:33
experience and that I turned into a lion
13:37
and he turned into a lion and all of the
13:40
lions of my family with their normal
13:42
faces and then like lion manes and I
13:44
mean it's so you know you can't make
13:45
this up and I have no affinity towards
13:47
you know wild cats but it just happened
13:49
and I think that's because my intuitive
13:51
self needed to see what a strong
13:53
powerful mother looked like that doesn't
13:56
need to go micromanage every moment and
13:59
to see that in the state of a of a
14:01
lioness I was like "Oh she's a badass
14:04
she is in charge but she lets them have
14:06
their moments." Like they fall down and
14:08
she's kind of like smack you know but
14:10
it's just it was beautiful because just
14:12
being able to internalize that that was
14:14
a total spiritual experience for me and
14:16
you know not that I'm a lioness but it
14:18
gave me a really physical real world
14:20
example of what it is I would like to
14:22
try to embody when interfacing and with
14:25
people that I love and
14:27
no no talk therapist or no EMDR therapy
14:30
session was going to turn me into a lion
14:32
you know so anyway I think that that
14:35
spiritual component has been so
14:37
important that definitely resonates with
14:38
me i mean my experience was motherhood
14:41
and grief and so my experience was
14:43
beautiful as well just kind of coming to
14:46
a point or just this moment in time when
14:50
I did my own treatment that you know I
14:52
was worthy of being a mother i can be a
14:54
good mother i can be in you know still
14:57
have this motherly presence and still do
15:01
all the other things that I want to do
15:03
and need to do so yeah there's such a
15:05
just even in the thing in motherhood
15:06
interestingly that both of our you know
15:08
intentions were around motherhood and I
15:10
think that just as business women who
15:13
have positions of power who are are
15:16
strong in our own right and then the
15:17
softening that is really best when it
15:19
comes to being a good mother and like
15:21
that nurturing side there's a lot to
15:23
balance in that absolutely and a lot to
15:25
question in ourselves so I'm so glad for
15:28
you that you were able to kind of maybe
15:29
pull from more that grounded self-
15:31
energy that confidence that exists in
15:34
you but that you were able to harness in
15:35
a better way that's awesome that's
15:37
wonderful that's so beautiful so
15:39
anything you'd caution about people
15:41
seeking this kind of treatment or rule
15:43
out so that people can kind of determine
15:45
if this might be a fit for them right so
15:48
clients who have a history like cardiac
15:51
illness can sometimes be a red flag and
15:53
that varies from person to person
15:55
actively high blood pressure is a big no
15:57
no so if you're seeking you know to do
16:00
that in the future having your blood
16:02
pressure under control is really really
16:04
important and that means with medication
16:06
it's okay if it's medication right it's
16:09
okay if it's medication managed and
16:11
there are some safeguards that you know
16:12
are taken like taking your blood
16:14
pressure before treatment and making
16:16
sure that you're not above a certain
16:17
number so that you can do that safely
16:20
and also any clients have a history of
16:22
psychosis so it doesn't mean that you
16:25
cannot do it it just means that during
16:28
your ketamine treatment you would have
16:30
to be on like a mood
16:32
stabilizer to help you stabilize your
16:35
mood while you're going through that
16:36
treatment oh that's good to know i
16:38
hadn't heard that part of things so
16:40
that's great well I you know is there
16:42
anything else we need to make sure our
16:44
audience knows is related to this topic
16:46
i've got two other episodes about this
16:48
so please if you're interested and
16:50
you're really doing your research check
16:51
those out but what are is there anything
16:53
else we need to make sure we share with
16:55
them i think um just you know most
16:59
clients when they go through it they say
17:01
it's it really is a mental reset you
17:04
know and I think that piggybacking off
17:06
of that it's really that glutamate surge
17:09
that occurs that basically promotes
17:11
neuroplasticity
17:12
and so when we're going through therapy
17:14
for those of us that have you know a
17:17
trauma trauma background or whatever the
17:20
case may be you can process it to a
17:22
certain degree and but our brain doesn't
17:25
I mean It does change i don't want to
17:26
say it doesn't because with EMDR it does
17:28
change it definitely changes but it it
17:32
occurs at a faster rate you know with
17:35
ketamine and so I think that's wonderful
17:38
knowing that you can go into something
17:40
and that there's actually the
17:41
neuroplasticity occurs as you're going
17:44
through it and and it can really just be
17:46
a reset for your life and everything
17:49
awesome i I I can't say enough about it
17:51
with clients and I know that there has
17:52
to be predicating factors to like you
17:55
know encourage a client to go through
17:56
this kind of treatment for it to be
17:58
prescribed and for a prescriber to
17:59
ethically be able to do so but I got to
18:02
say that if not for those red tape
18:04
moments I really think anyone who has
18:06
the resources and the time who can who's
18:08
had any sort of trauma like what a
18:10
beautiful avenue to go to be able to
18:12
kind of see that side of things from
18:14
that deeply spiritual internal
18:15
perspective that we just can't get
18:17
access to very easily easily and and
18:19
it's so robust and so powerful so agreed
18:22
yeah well thank you so much for being
18:24
here i love talking with you i feel like
18:26
we could do a whole other show on just
18:27
our our experiences and what that was
18:30
like to give people an opportunity i
18:32
appreciate you inviting me and I'm happy
18:34
to be here i'm so happy to have you
18:36
thank you so hopefully that gave you
18:38
guys some good nuggets to take back to
18:40
your research board related to your
18:42
potential getting uh psychotherapy via
18:45
ketamine assisted psychotherapy like I
18:47
said I had two other episodes that we
18:49
did related to this topic so please feel
18:51
free to check out my channel Adaptable
18:53
Behavior Explained and do your research
18:56
and and hopefully you'll find someone
18:57
that is doing the work with you as
18:59
opposed to um separate integration at a
19:02
later date i I find that a much more
19:04
powerful experience if you have the
19:05
ability to do that so thank you so much
19:08
for tuning in today until we meet again
19:11
don't forget to lead with love it'll
19:13
never steer you wrong
19:15
[Music]
#Mental Health
#Depression
#Drug & Alcohol Treatment
#Counseling Services