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Welcome to Adaptable | Behavior Explained! This episode goes over Karpman’s Drama Triangle and how it affects relationships. The model identifies three roles—Victim, Rescuer, and Persecutor—that create unhealthy interaction patterns. Understanding these dynamics can help break negative cycles, improve communication, and build healthier connections. Recognizing when you or others fall into these roles allows for more constructive and empowering relationships.
I'm Kelly O'Horo, Attachment based EMDR Therapist, EMDRIA Consultant, and Advanced Trainer. I'm a mom of 5, Nonna of 5, wife, and a healer. I have the honor of spending my workdays walking along side people while they brave their healing journeys. I try to live with the generous assumption that we're all doing the best we can with what we know. Therapists are teachers for the "life stuff" and "emotional vocabulary" that may not have been learned due to gaps in our care givers capabilities. In the last 15 years I've learned that people are freaking amazing, resilient, and inspiring. Most importantly, we are hardwired for connection and for healing!
I hope to bring an authentic, compassionate, and unpolished approach while we explore a variety of topics such as parenting, marriage, relationships, dating, trauma, attachment, adoption, depression, addiction, anxiety, and love! There's a why for all behaviors and an explanation that makes perfect sense as emotion is at the root of it all.
-- Links --
https://linktr.ee/kellyohorolpc
https://youtu.be/rLnARKekvgo
https://www.emdria.org/find-an-emdr-therapist/
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0:06
hi everyone I'm Kell ooro and this is
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adaptable Behavior explain hi everybody
0:12
thank you so much for tuning in to
0:14
adaptable welcome back to our show those
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of you who've watched I took a little
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bit of a break for after season 1 and
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enjoyed some time with my family and
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friends and just a little bit more
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balance my husband and I celebrated our
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25th anniversary and we went on a really
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special trip to commemorate that time
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and so we've really really enjoyed that
0:36
space and so I'm really happy to be back
0:38
and I also love some of the feedback
0:41
that I got in the comments and messages
0:43
about the show in season one so I really
0:45
appreciate you for being tuned in and
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for all of your support and I also
0:49
excited to get back to it there's a
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whole bunch that we want to discuss here
0:53
in season 2 and bring some of the
0:55
insights that we've gained from the time
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with our patients and all of that good
1:00
stuff so again thank you so much for
1:02
being here so let's kick it off season
1:05
two today we are going to talk about
1:07
cart drama triangle I say the word
1:10
trauma so much in my life that it just
1:12
comes out like it's part of my uh you
1:14
know good morning good night and trauma
1:16
but anyways so Cartman's drama triangle
1:19
is the discussion that we're going to
1:20
have today and I use this Theory often
1:24
because people interact in their
1:26
relationships in ways that are not
1:28
functional and they create problems and
1:30
they they're patterned responses as most
1:32
of you know this show is based on the
1:35
fact that I'm a mental health counselor
1:37
and I'm an EMDR specialist and that
1:40
modality is based on the Adaptive
1:42
information processing model and so
1:45
basically what that means is that we are
1:47
hardwired to respond to our environments
1:50
and over time based on our experiences
1:52
and our exposure to things we will
1:54
respond in ways that are patterned and
1:57
sometimes those are not helpful and so
2:00
the Cartman's drama triangle is this
2:03
psychological model and it helps us to
2:05
understand basically the roles that we
2:07
play in our relationships specifically
2:09
related to conflict and how we can end
2:11
up in our negative interaction Cycles
2:14
which we all participate in we we all
2:16
have patterns we all behave in ways that
2:19
have served us and that we've learned in
2:20
our family histories and oftentimes when
2:23
people come to therapy it's because they
2:25
recognize they are participating in
2:27
patterns that are really not helpful and
2:29
are no longer serving them and they
2:31
don't even realize that they're often
2:32
times learned and frankly most of the
2:34
time people come in talking about and
2:36
complaining about the behaviors of of
2:38
people in their families and so part of
2:40
our job as therapists is to help people
2:43
understand the role that they play what
2:45
role do they play how do they
2:47
participate in the dynamic of
2:49
dysfunction in their relationships and
2:52
so hopefully today when you learn a
2:54
little bit about this Paradigm you can
2:56
learn ways to break free from some of
2:59
the these patterns that you've learned
3:01
in your story and so with Cartman's
3:04
drama triangle basically there's three
3:06
roles we've got the persecutor we've got
3:09
The Rescuer and we've got the victim and
3:12
you've heard people talk about how other
3:13
people respond to them and you know in
3:16
Lay person's terms we say you know
3:17
they're such a victim or they're such a
3:19
martyr or they just can't help but stay
3:21
stuck in these roles and these roles
3:23
often emerge in Conflict situations and
3:26
they perpetuate unhealthy interactions
3:29
and often times we end up in these
3:31
triangles or these poor patterns and we
3:33
just don't know how to break free from
3:35
them so I want to help you better
3:37
understand how to to get yourself out of
3:40
these Dynamics so that you can have more
3:42
functional relationships and better
3:44
patterns in your communication so to
3:46
break free from the drama triangle first
3:49
and foremost it's crucial to identify
3:51
the role that you play We tend to have
3:54
patterns that are persistent and so you
3:56
need to ask yourself are you the are you
3:58
the persecutor do you blame others are
4:00
you constantly looking at what someone
4:03
else does and then that's the reason
4:05
that you respond the way you are uh
4:07
responding Are You The Rescuer do you
4:09
have a terrible time tolerating the
4:11
discomfort of others and you always are
4:13
trying to step in and save people from
4:15
their discomfort from their overwhelm
4:17
from their feelings of powerlessness or
4:20
do you find yourself in the victim role
4:22
and you feel powerless all of the time
4:24
and you feel like things are just
4:25
happening to you and that you're just
4:27
the recipient of things in the world and
4:29
you don't really have any options so
4:32
we're going to look at some signs and
4:33
examples of each of these roles and that
4:36
way you can start to think about your
4:38
interactions in the world and hopefully
4:40
you can really be introspective and
4:41
recognize the patterns that you play in
4:44
the Dynamics something I want you to
4:46
keep in mind though is that these roles
4:49
aren't always you might find yourself in
4:52
a victim role maybe with your partner
4:54
for example but maybe when you're in a
4:57
power over position or you're you're the
4:59
boss at your company or or in in your
5:01
role at work you find yourself shifting
5:03
into the persecutor role or maybe you
5:06
find yourself shifting even in in a in a
5:09
dynamic depending on what's going on so
5:10
I really want you to be open and not
5:12
find yourself falling into an immediate
5:14
default where you're just owning I'm
5:17
always this I want you to really stay
5:19
open and consider when do I change into
5:22
these roles and with whom do those roles
5:24
shift so some key points about these
5:27
roles just as you keep them in mind
5:30
the persecutor role often feels Superior
5:33
they'll power over they blame uh they'll
5:36
judge others and they might use
5:38
criticism and control to assert their
5:40
dominance so I used the example of a
5:43
manager being the boss at work if you're
5:45
someone who consistently criticizes your
5:48
team that they don't meet deadlines that
5:50
they have poor quality they need to make
5:53
improvements and you're finding yourself
5:55
never complimenting the work that people
5:57
do this can create a a hostile work
5:59
environment and so another term for the
6:02
persecutor could be like the blamer or
6:04
someone who's always controlling and so
6:06
if you find yourself thinking about
6:09
others in that way or even people have
6:11
given you that feedback about yourself
6:13
you might consider that you fall into
6:15
that persecutor role in Cartman's drama
6:17
triangle the next role that we're going
6:19
to discuss is The Rescuer role I can
6:22
tell you that this is the role that
6:24
feels the most natural to me I have
6:26
incredibly difficult time tolerating the
6:28
discomfort and others and as I continue
6:31
my therapeutic Journey um I continue to
6:34
find myself in powerless moments in my
6:36
childhood where I you know had a hard
6:39
time and then as part of my adaptation I
6:43
want to make sure people don't have a
6:45
hard time in their lives and so I try to
6:47
insert myself even when they don't ask
6:50
me and sometimes at my own expense so I
6:53
tend to want to jump in so that people
6:54
don't have discomfort and so often times
6:57
this this role this rescuer can offer
7:00
unsolicited advice um or take on
7:03
responsibilities that are not theirs so
7:05
I I say like stay in your lane to my
7:07
clients if they're overfunctioning for
7:09
somebody and they might have a rescue or
7:11
propensity I I'll say like remind them
7:13
hey what Lane are you in and and make
7:15
sure that you stay in your own lane on
7:17
this one because no one has invited you
7:19
you don't have an audience and so I'll
7:21
give you an example I think about I I'll
7:24
give you an example of my one of my
7:25
grandkids she is like so awesome and I
7:28
she's she just is my little litmus test
7:30
for my areas of growth at this point and
7:33
uh I was doing some therapy work this
7:35
last week in my own work and something
7:37
got activated in myself and I was really
7:40
hurt and I in in EMDR you float back to
7:43
events that are familiar and there was
7:44
this memory where I was a little kid and
7:47
my basketball shoes had gotten stolen
7:49
and I was devastated because basketball
7:52
was everything for me and when I called
7:54
my dad to ask for help and see if he
7:56
would help me replace them you know his
7:58
response to me was you should to put
7:59
your shoes in a different place and that
8:01
it was kind of my fault that they were
8:02
stolen and I was so helpless and I was
8:04
so powerless and I was you know I was
8:06
only like 15 years old and I didn't have
8:08
the money to replace my basketball shoes
8:10
and so I was really stressed out about
8:12
that experience and so when I think
8:14
about how I over functioned fast forward
8:16
to my granddaughter and she gives me a
8:17
call actually this week and she says I
8:19
want to go to this Camp you know would
8:21
you pay for me to go to this camp for a
8:22
day and thankfully because of that work
8:24
I had enough front of Mind experience to
8:27
go I'm going to make this choice but
8:28
it's not motiva right now for rescuing
8:31
her from discomfort but I did notice
8:33
myself connecting that behavior in
8:35
myself where I don't want love kids that
8:37
I love or people that I love to feel
8:39
like I felt when I was a kid and I
8:41
didn't have the supports that I needed
8:42
to kind of reduce my own trauma
8:44
experiences and so I just noticed that
8:47
pairing and historically I would have
8:49
given her the day at camp and covered
8:50
that cost just because I don't want her
8:52
to be powerless or be left out or not
8:54
have the experiences that she would want
8:55
to have sometimes and this was motivated
8:58
fortunately because of my own work I
9:00
just wanted to give her the the day and
9:02
to have a go for her to be able to have
9:04
a fun time so but that's an example of a
9:06
rescuer we we jump in and we help and we
9:09
fix and maybe it's not our place or
9:11
maybe it's even to the detriment of the
9:13
people because they don't have an
9:14
opportunity to figure out solutions for
9:17
themselves so the next role that we're
9:19
going to discuss is the victim role the
9:21
victim role is the person who constantly
9:23
feels helpless they are overwhelmed they
9:25
seek sympathy and empathy and support
9:28
they might ask for advice from everybody
9:30
and they fall into this position where
9:32
nothing is fair for them they might
9:34
avoid taking responsibility for their
9:36
actions so why are they in this mess
9:38
that they are talking to you about they
9:41
are it happened to them as opposed to
9:43
anything that they did to end up in the
9:44
position that they're in for an example
9:47
let's think of we'll call him John who
9:49
frequently complains about his life
9:51
circumstances but he doesn't take any
9:53
steps to improve his situation so let's
9:56
say he says he never has any money but
9:58
then he doesn't look for a different job
9:59
or he doesn't take a second job on so
10:02
that he can put himself in a different
10:03
position it's like life is happening to
10:06
him and he doesn't have any position to
10:09
change that and so the victim can also
10:11
be called the Martyr or oftentimes they
10:13
refer to themselves as powerless so
10:15
think for a moment you know these people
10:17
you know these people that find
10:19
themselves in that victim position all
10:21
the time and and just notice what comes
10:23
up in you when they're in that role so
10:25
ways that we can come out of these roles
10:28
first we're going to reflect you got to
10:30
slow down you got to pull yourself out
10:31
of the conflict and you need to think
10:33
about how do I interact what do I do
10:35
what's my default move what's my
10:37
propensity and we want to identify the
10:39
role that we tend to play one way we can
10:42
do that is by journaling after a
10:44
conflict you might kind of download what
10:46
role you took and so you might reflect
10:48
on that so using my grand or my uh
10:51
granddaughter as the example I I talked
10:53
about I didn't Journal but I did stop
10:55
and think about how did I help what was
10:58
motivating that you know what did I
11:00
think about it and is that something
11:02
that I did for my benefit or for hers or
11:04
was I trying to keep someone out of
11:06
discomfort was I operating from a place
11:09
of my own history and and luckily for me
11:12
the answer was no this is just something
11:13
I want to do because I I have the
11:15
opportunity to to be generous with this
11:17
experience but it was interesting so I
11:19
did slow down to reflect because I know
11:21
that my habits tend to be that rescuer
11:24
and I really am trying to break out of
11:25
that role and not be so overfunctioning
11:28
with people the next thing that we have
11:29
to do after we've kind of identified the
11:31
role that we take is to learn to set
11:33
boundaries so we have to recognize
11:35
what's okay for me what's not okay for
11:37
me so that we can avoid falling into
11:39
these roles that are our default mode
11:42
for example let's say I was in a
11:43
position where I really shouldn't have
11:45
helped my granddaughter I would have
11:46
needed to say you know I'm so sorry I
11:48
know that it's hard to have to miss the
11:50
day you know with your friends but
11:53
unfortunately I'm not able to help you
11:54
this time I'm really sorry and I and I
11:56
hope that you can find something else
11:57
fun to do with your day and that would
11:59
have been a healthy boundary and the
12:01
thing is is would she be disappointed
12:03
certainly she would be disappointed
12:04
because it's something that she wanted
12:05
to do and she saw me as someone that
12:07
would help her but it's okay for her to
12:09
have disappointment it's okay for her to
12:11
learn resilience it's okay for her to
12:13
have those experiences and and get
12:15
creative with the time that she does
12:16
spend so if we learn to set those
12:18
boundaries it can help us focus on our
12:20
own needs and oftentimes when we fall
12:23
into one of these other roles we're not
12:25
focusing on our own needs so the other
12:28
thing we want look at as ways to empower
12:30
ourself by taking responsibility for our
12:33
actions and our decisions if we don't
12:34
want to feel like a victim like John we
12:36
want to focus on the things we can
12:38
control we want to take proactive steps
12:40
to change our situation sometimes that
12:42
starts with small achievable goals that
12:44
help us build confidence and help us
12:46
establish a sense of agency another
12:49
skill that is really beneficial to learn
12:51
and if you want to dig deeper into
12:52
Communication in general is a show that
12:55
I did on the four types of communication
12:57
I highly recommend checking that show
12:59
out but communication skills are going
13:01
to improve our lives in every area and
13:04
so improving those skills where we can
13:05
learn to express our needs and our
13:07
feelings without blaming or rescuing you
13:10
want to use eye statements when you talk
13:12
about something you want to be actively
13:14
listening you know using my
13:15
granddaughter for an example I could say
13:18
you know I really hear that you want to
13:19
spend this time with your friends you
13:20
want to go on this uh this day at this
13:22
camp and I recognize that's something
13:25
you really want to do and I hear you and
13:27
I know I know that that sounds fun and
13:29
exciting for you and unfortunately I'm
13:32
not going to be able to help you this
13:33
time or maybe I need to say if you want
13:36
you know I will give you some jobs that
13:39
you can do and next and I'll give you
13:41
some money for that and then next time
13:43
you can contribute to your Camp day on
13:44
your own so again this is ways that we
13:47
can use our communication skills to
13:48
improve the experience for others
13:51
without being critical without falling
13:53
into one of those roles so hopefully
13:56
this gives you some idea about what you
13:59
tend to fall into when it comes to the
14:01
three roles of of Cartman's drama
14:03
triangle and ways for you to identify
14:06
what you do perhaps what people do in in
14:08
your relationships and then some ideas
14:11
about how you can break free from these
14:13
patterns you got to understand that
14:15
recognizing Your Role understanding the
14:17
role is the first step in taking action
14:20
towards healthier interactions in your
14:22
relationships so if we recognize and we
14:24
can change our Behavior we can create
14:26
more positive and empowering Dynamics
14:28
and we can fall out of those habits and
14:30
those propensities that no longer serve
14:32
us that often times were learned in our
14:34
childhood and they're just no longer
14:36
serving us and they're not helping us to
14:38
have um Quality healthy interactions in
14:41
our relationships so I want to thank you
14:43
so much for tuning in to this this
14:45
episode today I hope that you found it
14:47
helpful if you did please feel free to
14:49
share it with someone that might benefit
14:51
and don't forget to subscribe to our
14:53
channel so that you can check out our
14:55
new shows each week and so again thank
14:58
you so much I I hope that you enjoyed it
15:00
until we meet again don't forget to lead
15:02
with love it'll never steer you wrong
15:05
[Music]
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