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Former Labour leader Neil Kinnock has urged the Prime Minister to increase tax on assets, with a new poll revealing two-thirds of voters back the introduction of a 'wealth tax'.
James O'Brien questions why anyone would reject this idea.
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0:00
Four minutes after 11 is the time
0:03
You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. The iNewspaper, where I should probably declare an interest
0:11
despite having spent a long time telling you that it's a brilliant read, I am now one of their columnists, so I would be biased, wouldn't I
0:18
But the iNewspaper has done some polling on the wealth tax. This isn't a phone-in, even though I'm not that self-indulgent
0:29
But why do you think I haven't talked about the wealth tax in ages
0:33
It's been really present, hasn't it? I bet everyone else has done it as a conversation or as a report
0:41
Why haven't I? I don't really know. Part of the reason I haven't done it is because the arguments seem so well rehearsed
0:52
The idea that it hasn't really worked anywhere else. I don't know whether that stands up to proper scrutiny
0:59
That's probably my fault, isn't it, for not having undertaken the proper scrutiny
1:05
It wouldn't hit me, the one that the iNewspaper has polled about
1:09
that so a wealth tax on assets worth more than £10 million is apparently supported by two-thirds of the population
1:18
And support, according to this exclusive polling, shows that that support comes from across the political spectrum
1:26
73% would be happy with a rise in the... I also want to see a rise in the basic tax rate threshold frozen for five years
1:34
So the massive majority of people in favour of a wealth tax are also in favour of policies that would make them a little bit better off
1:42
Economists estimate that a wealth tax on assets above £10 million would raise £10 billion a year for the Treasury and affect 100,000 households
1:51
The right-wing media gets its tanks on your lawns at a rate of knots when stories like this are in the offing
2:00
And that is why I have got the idea, or that is where I have got the idea from
2:05
that they've tried it in lots and lots of other places and it has never worked. The more I dig into it, the less true that seems to be
2:13
But I want to make it absolutely clear that it might be true. They're looking at the Paris School of Economics and King's College London
2:20
when they refer to economists and academics who moot the possibility of a £10 billion a year figure
2:27
with only 1,000 households affected. There was also a call last week from a group called Patriotic Millionaires
2:41
many of whom signed a letter stating that they should be paying a little more tax and they'd be comfortable with a 2% levy on wealth of over £10 million
2:51
What I think about this is the 2% on wealth over £10 million
3:00
everybody is going to be earning more than 2% on their pot, right
3:06
So you're paying it essentially out of the interest that you are receiving
3:11
or the profits you are making on your wealth. So it's a 2% levy
3:16
So they don't touch the first 10 million, right? And then your wealth over 10 million gets hit with a 2% levy
3:28
I mean, if you're worth 100 million, that's 2% of 80 million
3:34
which I think you're going to be making anyway. Listen, I'm just thinking out loud about fairness
3:41
because this is one of those tax rises that would not affect me
3:46
Normally, I like to give myself a little pat on the back for being such a stand-up citizen, such a patriotic person
3:51
because I'm in favour of paying a little bit more tax. I pay a lot of tax, actually
3:56
I'm not going to tell you how much tax because it makes my eyes water, but I pay a lot of tax And 52 of the population I don know if you aware of this are not net contributors 52 of households in this country are taking out more than they actually put in over the course of
4:14
lifetimes, I think. There was some research into this. I read it in the Financial Times at the
4:17
weekend. So that's one of the most patriotic things I do is pay an absolute king's ransom
4:23
in tax, and I like paying it, even as I find myself supporting people whose politics I might
4:31
find abhorrent, even as the people that fall for the racist lies of various propagandists
4:37
and populists, while actually not being net contributors to our treasury, blaming it all
4:42
on immigrants, while in fact they are part of the problem, not the solution. I'm proud of that as
4:47
well, because if we don't help them, who will? So normally, when it comes to conversations about
4:52
higher taxes, I can be a little bit holier than thou. I can't on this one
5:02
I can't on this one. Just 10% of people opposed such a plan
5:07
10%. It's a tiny figure. High wealth in the tax system, targeting it
5:13
found support from around 66% of adult Britons who would be behind this wealth tax
5:18
on assets worth more than 10 million pounds. part of me part of me
5:25
is fascinated by the 10% who are never going to be near this
5:30
threshold but who are opposed to it I don't think it's fair to say that you're
5:35
brainwashed or stupid, I just don't I mean, in some ways I'd like to
5:42
confine the conversation to you in a way I'm not going to I'm a big fan of freedom of speech
5:48
I'm a big fan of pluralism I can't even say the word and yet I'm a huge fan of it, plurality of inputs
5:55
I've always been fascinated by the people who think that they are somehow on the same team as the super wealthy
6:04
and when the super wealthy argue that they shouldn't be contributing more
6:08
to the well-being of the society that has made them super wealthy
6:12
or sustained their super wealth, then people who will never be super wealthy
6:17
people who will never even be wealthy by most measures are cheering them along
6:24
And listen, there's a huge amount of effort that's been put into it. Various newspaper owners
6:30
all plutocrats, all protecting their own wealth, all adamant that there should be
6:35
less and less taxation on what they pass on to the next generation
6:39
all moving heaven and earth to avoid paying the sort of same levels
6:45
of inheritance tax that my children will have to pay when I shuffle off this mortal coil
6:49
but that's not really the point of the conversation the point of the conversation is the ethics of it
6:56
the ethics of it I just want you to tell me and you're allowed to ring in and say fair
7:05
so if you've got 11 million quid I think you'd be paying about 20 grand a year
7:09
as this so called wealth tax kicks in but I just I just, I'm sort of challenging myself now to get the question right because I don't always
7:21
part of the reason why I've not done this conversation in the past is because I've heard
7:27
it so many times. I want to hear a new conversation today and I really need your help. You really came
7:32
through for me on the education phone and I'm getting my old age. I'm getting quite grouchy
7:36
about new territory. I don't want to hear the same calls again and again and again
7:42
I am however, as a few of you have already pointed out
7:46
I am going to reach for my John Steinbeck quote in a moment which is part of the answer to the question of how people who will never be wealthy
7:54
can be against the wealth tax on the super wealthy but I think it's fair
8:00
I just think it's fair if I had million in the bank the idea of paying in order to just undo some of the damage done by Osborne razor would to me be a no That probably one of the reasons why
8:18
I haven't got 11 million pounds in the bank. And I wonder whether there's some truth in that. I
8:24
wonder whether in order to achieve that sort of wealth, especially from a standing start
8:30
you have to prioritise the simple accumulation of money more than almost anything else
8:39
this isn't an insult by the way far from it it's something that we do every hour on every programme
8:44
it's an attempt to understand something I don't currently understand but I sit here and imagine
8:49
if I had 11 million pounds in the bank maybe I wouldn't be comfortable
8:53
handling over 20 grand because I'd be thinking about what I might have spent that 20 grand on
8:57
oh hang on a minute if i didn't have to pay my wealth tax i could
9:02
what what would you spend 20 grand on if you had 11 million pounds in the bank that you can't
9:08
afford if you've spent 20 000 pounds on a wealth tax so the calculations my mental calculations
9:14
don't apply here they don't seem to they don't seem to deliver the no-brainer that
9:22
this story seems to me to represent. The no-brainer. 10%, sorry, a tiny percentage on wealth over £10 million
9:37
So assets worth more than £10 million. All right, talk to me about that. So they're looking at the mortgage-free element of your home, right
9:45
They're looking at how much money you could release if you sold everything
9:49
So you've got £11 million worth of assets. but the only logical objection to this
9:56
I think would be that you would find it a struggle to get your hands on £20,000
10:04
You've got £11 million worth of assets but you'd struggle to get your hands on £20,000
10:10
I think you probably need some better financial advice, don't you? I don't know
10:15
I just... I just... I just want you to tell me why anyone would object to this
10:25
even if they've got the money. Do you see what I mean? I'm not getting it right
10:31
I'm not getting it right. Hang on a second. Maybe I am getting it right
10:37
Quarter past 11 is the time. It's a 2% on assets in excess of £10 million
10:44
Maybe the thing I'm missing, maybe the point I'm missing, is that this is actually a lot of money
10:49
and I'm suggesting that it isn't, and that people would really notice it. But I think it's more about a personality type, isn't it
10:57
I wish I'd been more careful when I was younger, but I wasn't. It doesn't keep me awake at night
11:03
I had a wonderful time messing around, partying, buying things I couldn't afford
11:07
living beyond my means. I had a wonderful, wonderful time. I could have done something differently in my life
11:14
I could have set something up. You talk about how you need to have equity in something
11:18
you need to be selling something, you need to have something to sell. I've got friends who are as rich as Croesus
11:22
and they've had great lives too. They're just built differently from me
11:27
And maybe it's not fair to take more... Well, no, it just is fair, isn't it
11:32
It's just fair. 03 45 60 60 973 is the number that you need
11:40
So, what is the issue for you here? That's the question. just tell me about your relationship with this proposal the idea that when we look at the society
11:54
that we inhabit the people who have got the most have benefited the most in financial terms from
12:02
our shared resources they've benefited from the education system because they have an educated
12:07
workforce they benefited from the transport system because their business couldn operate without decent transport links they benefited from the national Health Service because the National Health Service keeps their workforce healthy
12:20
These aren't going to apply to everybody who's got a ton of money, but, you know, there'll be other things you benefit from
12:26
You benefit from having a base, a home in a country that is a cultural hotbed
12:31
You benefit from being able to go and do things that you can't do in other places
12:36
There's history here. There's history, population, and luck. And if you've ended up with a ton of money
12:43
you are lucky. It's a patriotic thing to do, no? 0345 6060973
12:50
I always think Alan Sugar, I think, I may be misremembering this
12:54
but I think Alan Sugar stuck a cheque once on Twitter showing how much income tax he paid
12:59
And I remember thinking, that's brilliant. What a legend. Look how much income tax that man is paying
13:05
I remember thinking, that's what we should be celebrating. Am I sounding nuts
13:09
or am I just sounding like somebody who is talking sense in a world where almost all of the effort in our media
13:16
is put into mocking voices like mine? Mocking voices. I mean, the real idiots say
13:24
well, if you want to pay more tax, you can. Why don't you pay it voluntarily? Which I think is such a boneheaded argument
13:30
that you wonder whether or not the people making it should be allowed near scissors
13:35
But then you look at the fact that Boris Johnson got elected, that Brexit got voted for
13:39
that Liz Truss was described as an economic genius by the same newspapers that are furious
13:44
at the prospect of a wealth tax. You look at the support for people like Donald Trump
13:48
and Benjamin Netanyahu among British people who have apparently been educated, and you realise people can be persuaded
13:53
into almost any imaginable position, up to and including climate change denial
13:59
So, of course, you're going to be able to persuade people that they're against a wealth tax, in the same way that you persuaded them Brexit was a good idea
14:05
Boris Johnson was a stand-up guy. Liz Truss was an economic genius. Austerity was a necessary corrective
14:11
for the catastrophes caused by the greed of bankers right around the world
14:16
That Donald Trump is the best thing since sliced bread and that Benjamin Netanyahu has got Israel's interests at heart
14:22
rather than his own. You can persuade people of anything. Absolutely anything
14:26
So, of course, you can persuade them that a wealth tax is a bad idea
14:30
Is that the point here? Is that why I'm struggling with the subject? Because it's just another thing to stick on the same list
14:36
of the bleeding obvious, but a significant portion of our population has been persuaded to
14:42
reject the evidence of their own eyes and ears. It's just fair. Where else are you going to get
14:46
the money from? Get it off the scroungers. Who told you about the scroungers
14:49
Oh, the people that own the newspaper. Oh, yeah. Get it off
14:54
the immigrants. Who's obsessing about the immigrants? It's the... Oh. It's the... Yeah
15:00
And what did they tell you about Brexit? They told me it would be brilliant. What did they tell you about Boris Johnson
15:04
They told me he was a legend. What did they tell you about Donald Trump, they told me I had Trump derangement
15:08
syndrome when I kept pointing out what a wrongany was. Is the wealth tax just another one
15:14
That's the question. 0345 6060 973 is a tax on assets. A small levy on assets
15:24
in excess of £10 million. So quite a lot of people in my inbox have already
15:28
got it wrong. I'm not blaming you for that. If you've got £11 million the tax would apply to £1 million
15:34
of your £11 million, not to all £11 million. You get your first £10 million clear
15:40
and then you pay 2% on the excess. It's the will of the people
15:47
It's 73% of the population. Sorry, 66% of the population. Is it just another one on those lists
15:56
Is it just another thing that ordinary decent people have been persuaded to oppose
16:01
by extraordinary indecent people. Is it another Brexit? Is it another Boris
16:07
I don't know. I think it probably is. But I want you to tell me your relationship with it
16:12
and particularly why you're against it even though you will never in a billion years
16:18
be required to pay it
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