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Lewis Goodall and Jon Sopel are joined by Reform UK Chairman David Bull as his party looks set to clean up in the local elections. But there's one topic Lewis and Jon want to really get straight: That £5 million donation from his crypto-mate. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #ukpolitics #lewisgoodall #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Do you think we'll actually see more of Nigel Farage in the last 24 hours
0:02
I suspect he won't be ducking interviews like he did earlier in the week. Oh, that's a bit rich
0:06
I mean, Nigel has been a great campaigner, and he's been out on the stump. And actually, I would say, me, Nigel, and the rest of the team
0:12
we are building this party from the ground up. It is old-fashioned politics. I've been out and about meeting everyone
0:18
And by the way, our rallies, 20% of the people in those rallies are reform members
0:23
80% of them are people who were interested. I think Nigel missed one interview
0:28
Yeah, I mean, I just wonder why that might have been, though, David. I mean, you know... I mean, you'll have to ask him, won't you
0:32
Well, I'd be delighted if he wants to come on this evening. But maybe it was about, and perhaps you don't have to be too conspiratorial to believe
0:38
that it could be about the fact that he didn't want to answer questions about the £5 million he was gifted by Christopher Harbourn
0:43
Yeah. So Chris Harbourn is a friend and a colleague and an ally of Nigel. Do you have many friends who give you £5 million
0:48
Well, I wish I did. Yeah, so do I. But Nigel is a high-profile politician
0:53
He was given that money at a time when he didn't have office. He wasn't standing as a member of Parliament
0:57
He didn't have to declare it. Well, the Conservatives and Labour disagree. Well, they can disagree, and of course they can refer it to IPSA
1:03
If there is a case to answer, IPSA can then come up with a judgment on that
1:07
We are clear that Nigel has not broken any parliamentary law. Well, he would be
1:12
I mean, you would understand, of course, that you are standing, and one of your things, I mean, you've alluded to it already tonight, David
1:17
which is that, you know, you're supposed to be something fresh, something different. You're supposed to drain the swamp, to use that phrase
1:22
And then we learn, we learn, that not only has this guy, Christopher Harbourn, Harbourn, already given you the biggest donation in British political history, then we learn
1:31
and we only learned about it because of the Guardian newspaper, not because Nigel Farage told us that he's decided to give him personally £5 million. Do you understand why that might at
1:39
least give the impression that Mr Harbourn might have some undue influence over your party
1:44
I don't, actually. So, what I would say is Nigel is probably the most high-profile politician in
1:49
this country. He has threats against him. He has no private security. He has no security at all
1:54
Chris Harbourn decided to give him money to protect him. By the way, Nigel's house was firebombed
1:59
Would he be willing to show that that money has been used for security, that five million
2:04
You'll have to ask him. Well, I'm asking you. You're the chairman. I am the chairman, but that money was given to Nigel for his private security
2:10
Indeed, so would he be willing to give us the receipts, as it were
2:14
You'll ask him. OK, so it's so fascinating because you say you're the new kids on the block. Yeah
2:20
So a Tory leader a Labour leader trousers five million quid and you say oh well no that seems perfectly reasonable So I made a point didn I Very clear which is not He was out of Parliament at the time But he was out of Parliament He didn have public office He wasn running as an MP
2:38
Do you know anyone, anytime, anywhere, who has ever been given five million quid..
2:46
But my job as chairman is to ensure that the party abides by parliamentary law and indeed by political law
2:52
And that is what we are doing. Do you understand why people think... No, of course. Do you understand? Let me just finish the question
2:57
Do you understand why people think this stinks to high heaven? But they don't
3:01
So, no, on the doorstep, it has had absolutely no impact. And let's just go back to tonight, shall we
3:08
I will be very intrigued to see how much of this is a media bubble
3:12
and what people on the doorstep are actually saying and the way they're voting
3:16
Has he given any other money, Mr Harbour and Sir Farage, in the past, or is it just the five million
3:20
Not that I'm aware of. And what do you say to a senior party source who has told The Guardian today
3:24
There's no question that Nigel is a rock star and he has undoubtedly faced threats to his security
3:29
But we do need to make greater progress away from personality towards policy
3:33
I wonder if this could have been best avoided by declaring it in the first place
3:38
Well, again, look, this is up to Nigel. Just in terms of the party, we are developing policy
3:43
It isn't just about Nigel. Part of my job is to broaden the top team of the party
3:48
And you can see that happening across the board. Dr. Paul, you said this is up to Nigel
3:52
I mean, you are here tonight as the reform. What do you think
3:56
What do I think? Yeah. Well, I'm very happy that he hasn't broken the law, that everything he's done has been above the board
4:02
and we don't believe there's a case to answer. Do you think it would have been better if he had just declared it
4:06
I honestly don't think he thought it was an issue. But do you think it would have been better, in retrospect, if he declared it
4:12
If he didn't have to declare it, if the letter of the law says he doesn't have to declare it
4:16
why would he declare it? So you don't think it would have been better? No. I just wondered as well if there's a question
4:22
about wider professionalisation. I don't know if you saw today. I mean, there are people in this country
4:26
they can see your party. It's had tremendous success. It's going to have tremendous success tonight
4:30
Absolutely clear. And it is a credit, clearly, to your political operation
4:34
I do wonder, though, whether what you might have to say to people who do worry about the potential
4:39
of a reformed government and what it might do and the character of it. I don't know if you saw that Aaron Banks
4:43
who, of course, had previously been a long-time political ally of Nigel Farage
4:47
In response to On X, in response to a Plaid Cymru video
4:51
fronted by a black community organiser from Blue Town in Cardiff, Banks posted Welsh question mark on X to that which seemed to imply that black people can be Welsh I haven seen that so I can really comment on it But just in terms of our party many people in our party we basically are a party of meritocracy
5:12
So we have candidates of all religions, of races, of skin colours, of sexuality. We want the best in the right
5:19
I mean, banks stood for reform in the West of England mayor election. I can't point it. I haven't seen it. Why don't we talk about, actually, the great candidates
5:25
the 5,000 that we are actually putting up? Well, you want to talk about all 5,000? I'm asking you about Aaron Banks
5:31
But the media is obsessed with our candidates to a degree that they're not obsessed with the other parties
5:36
Let's look at the number of Tory candidates that have been thrown out. Let's talk about the Green Party
5:40
Two Green Party candidates arrested, 30 accused of anti-Semitism. Aaron Banks isn't just a random candidate
5:46
He's been a long-time ally and financial supporter of Nigel Farage and the different parties that he's had
5:51
And he posted Welsh lad question mark over a video of a black Welsh man
5:56
which seemed to imply that he could not be Welsh because he was black. I would have to ask him what he meant by that
6:01
Well, just I'm telling you what he said. What do you think? Do you think that that's... Would you ask him to apologise
6:06
This is not about supposition. I would take him aside and I would have a conversation
6:10
And if I decide that then he has overstepped the boundaries, then he would be sanctions
6:15
He said his comments were a joke. Again, I can't be drawn because I haven't seen this. Well, he said it was a joke
6:19
Why don't we talk about the local elections? Well, it is about the local elections. We've got elections in Wales
6:23
Why don't we actually look at the poll that matters, which is how people vote today? And I think you're going to find that your London metropolitan bubble
6:30
is absolutely out of kilter with the rest of the country. I don't think it's a London metropolitan bubble
6:35
It is. Ask whether or not. I mean, you could be in government in Wales after tomorrow
6:38
and you've got a senior person basically implying that a black man cannot be Welsh
6:44
Tell that to all our black handlers. Do you understand why people would find that very offensive? I haven't heard that before, so you're the only one that seems obsessed by it
6:51
But just to answer the question, it's not hypothetical. It's been put on X
6:55
Is it acceptable? No. Well, that's what we were asking. If that is what he actually meant by it, of course it's not acceptable
7:02
Right. So should Aaron Banks be playing a role in the party then anymore? Well, Aaron Banks is not involved with the operation of this party
7:08
And if I see that, I will then investigate that from here. In terms of what happens now, Wales and Scotland, coalitions
7:17
Yeah, Wales is really interesting. At the last election we polled 1%. We're now polling at 31%. I think Luke will bear me out on that
7:24
It's an amazing turnaround. It is an amazing turnaround. And particularly in Scotland. But I have spent as part of my tour I have made sure I been in Wales and Scotland a great deal underpinning the enormity and the importance of the United Kingdom Wales has huge problems with poverty and deprivation
7:40
and the idea that you're a nation of sanctuary has landed incredibly poorly
7:44
This is by Cymru. It has landed incredibly badly with the Welsh people
7:47
Now, we're in it to win it in Wales. One last thing. Would you fear, I mean, there's already talk, David, tonight about Andy Burnham
7:54
and the Prime Minister's future. Let's imagine Andy Burnham goes into Parliament. Would you find him a more difficult opponent
8:00
I think he's more charismatic. I think he probably has a better belief ideology and structure
8:07
Keir Starmer has no belief structure. I think he's rudderless. I think he lacks personality, and that's what people are saying
8:13
You'd fear Burnham by comparison? That's not what I said. No, no, I'm asking you. Would you fear him by comparison? But I'm concentrating on what we're doing
8:19
and we're doing incredibly well. Do you think you could take him on in a by-election? Yes. And beat him
8:23
It depends where he stands. In the north-west, presumably somewhere. In which case he would, well, so what he's going to do, isn't he
8:29
He's going to go to a safe Labour seat if such a thing exists. Well, yeah. And I don't think they do
8:33
But anyway, he will go for a seat. Would you fancy your chances? Would I personally? No, not you personally
8:37
I don't know if you really want to. I'm not in the North. I don't think I would actually do very well in the North
8:42
Do you fancy your chances in Bootle? I don't think that's the right constituency for me
8:46
All right. Fair enough. Can I just ask a question? Go on, John. Why not
8:50
It's all right. Go on, why not? We've got about eight hours. Come on, John
8:53
I was really struck by something that Nigel Farage said on the radio last week
8:59
where he was talking about deportation of illegal immigrants in this country
9:04
And he said, there's an American president we want to follow and who did this extremely well
9:10
And we're waiting for the words Donald Trump to fall from his lips. And he says Barack Obama
9:15
And I wonder whether that is a decision by reform or a judgment by reform
9:19
That Donald Trump is hugely unpopular in this country. It creates too much noise. And actually, it's better for reform to create some distance between yourselves and the Trump presidency, which you have been in the past so close to
9:35
Well, of course, Nigel is friends with Donald Trump. We are venerating Barack Obama
9:41
It's very interesting. I haven't heard him say that. But actually, just in terms of immigration, that is the number one issue on the doorstep
9:47
So that has enormous resonance wherever I go in the country. And the fact is, and I keep saying this, it's about fairness. And that's what people feel is not fair in this country, that you can come here illegally and you get benefits and you get put up in a house, whereas we ignore people who've served our country in the armed forces
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