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Crypto-billionaire Christopher Harborne has matched the record £36 million donation to Reform UK made to Reform by British billionaire Ben Delo.
In response to the two mammoth donations, Housing Secretary Angela Rayner has suggested that the money could be caught by a new cap on party donations that is being pushed through Parliament.
Henry Riley explains the whole situation with Max Wilkinson, the Liberal Democrat Home Affairs spokesperson.
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0:00
Wilkinson is the Liberal Democrat Home Affairs spokesperson. He's the MP for Cheltenham and joins me on the line now
0:05
Max, thank you for being there for us. Is it fair in this case to backdate the rules or to make them retrospective, do you think
0:15
The question of fairness, Henry, is a really interesting concept when you apply it to the context of political donations
0:23
And it's a really interesting line that was coming out yesterday that apparently this was all about levelling the playing field
0:29
I'm not totally convinced that two donations of £36 million, which are several multiples of the record donation ever given in British politics
0:38
is about levelling the playing field. What it means is that one political party is getting what I would call American-style sized donations
0:47
which does lead to us to ask a lot of questions about why donations of that size are being given
0:54
and what might the motivations be behind the receipt of those donations
0:59
from Nigel Farage and the Reform Party. So when people receive a very glossy leaflet in the post
1:05
from Nigel Farage and the Reform Party, they should know who's behind it
1:09
Of course, it's been declared. It's out in the open, it's out in public
1:14
and people will draw their own conclusions. But I think this is one of those things, Henry
1:18
that comes back to what kind of democracy do we want and do donations of this size actually put under threat
1:24
the very nature of liberal democracy in this country, and I think that they do. But ultimately, you've said it there, that whether we like it or not
1:31
there's been ample opportunity to change this. It hasn't been changed. I mean, they are operating within the rules
1:38
Well, of course, the Conservative Party and the Labour Party were the organisations that had the opportunity to change this
1:45
when it became clear that huge money in Meghony was becoming involved in British politics
1:49
It was very obvious since the 2024 general election the sort of tactics that reform were deploying
1:55
and where they were getting their money from. And the Labour Party has been really slow to act
2:00
So when Angela Rayner offers warm words like she did today, I think what we should say back
2:05
is that Angela Rayner and the Labour Party need to act an awful lot faster
2:09
They've been far too relaxed. And the truth is, Henry, that the Conservatives and Labour
2:13
are quite relaxed about this sort of thing traditionally because they're the parties who usually end up
2:19
hoovering up the really big money donations and they think that they usually win
2:22
Now we have multi politics and there big money aligning itself with some parties that are not the Labour Party or the Conservative Party and that is something that I think those two parties will come to regret
2:36
What we really need is to have a proper discussion about the kind of context that we want for
2:42
donations in British party politics and then the knock-on impact that that might have on the way
2:47
that politics in this country is run and we are way behind in terms of the regulation of that
2:52
But you're then happy for taxpayer money to be spent on funding political parties, presumably, because they could be funded some way
2:59
You'll know that. So the leaflets that, as you say, now we know if they're from Nigel Farage's party, they're from one of these two individuals
3:06
Now I'm paying for it. Your constituents are paying for it. My view is that we need a reasonable cap on donations per individual per year
3:15
And to come to the conclusion about what size that would be, it would take interventions from all the political parties, but also the Electoral Commission, and we need to have a national discussion about it
3:26
But I can tell you, Henry, that at the moment, when there's a local council by-election that most parties would not be particularly excited about, across the country, the Reform Party, because of the amount of money that it's got at its disposal, is able to run national campaigns and send four or five letters
3:42
and I have examples of this that have been given to me in the last week
3:46
Four or five letters straight in over the heads of any local campaigners. They don't need the door knockers that Tom Tugenthat was talking about in the interview just now
3:55
All they need to do is just bang out four or five letters and they are winning council by-elections
3:59
This is an attempt to buy politics by the Reform Party because they've now got so much money in such deep pockets
4:07
and that does lead us to question what kind of democracy we want
4:11
How else are we funding it then? We've identified the problem. How are we funding it then
4:17
I think it's perfectly reasonable for people to give donations to political parties. Of how much
4:22
Well, you'd have to come up with a reasonable cap per donor per annum
4:29
You must have an idea. I mean, in France, I see it's 7,500, very low
4:34
In Slovakia, it's 300,000 euros. I mean, what sort of ballpark are we talking about, in your view, Mr Wilkinson
4:40
well i think it's one of those things where political parties and politicians and the public
4:45
need to have a proper discussion alongside those regulators like the electoral commission
4:49
so we could come up with a solution that is reasonable so if for example somebody really likes the work that an mp is doing in their constituency they can say look i want to reward you and I want you to get re next time so I going to give you a few thousand pounds per year or whatever
5:05
I think that's quite reasonable. No one is being bought for a few thousand pounds per year
5:10
However, when it's in the order of 36 million pounds, therein lies some really difficult discussions and some really difficult questions that need to be asked
5:21
which go to the heart of what kind of democracy we want in this country. And when we have, Henry, a voting system which is first past the post
5:28
which means that at the next election there will be people who are elected as MPs
5:32
possibly on 25% of the vote because we now have multi-party politics
5:37
that then opens up even more questions about the validity of the elections
5:42
and the donations that are coming in. It's a really serious question that we need to ask as a country
5:47
Of course it is. but people will be pointing that your party, the Conservatives, the Labour Party
5:54
have often put, let's be fair, donors in the House of Lords. That has been practised for years
6:01
The Liberal Democrats want to reform the House of Lords, so we couldn't put anyone in there because they've given money to us or any other political party
6:07
Sure, but you still do it respectfully, Max Wilkinson. Well, the people who have been given peerages by all political parties are out there in the public
6:15
and most of the people who have been given peerages by the Liberal Democrats are experts in their field
6:20
And I could name them now. I'm not going to bother, Henry, because it's a waste of time having that discussion
6:25
However, the point is here, the Liberal Democrats actually stand for reforming politics
6:29
making sure that we can't have people put in the House of Lords by virtue of their connections or their donations
6:34
And we want a political donations cap. And we want to get rid of the stupid, outdated, first-past-the-post voting system
6:41
And if we do all those things, we can actually have a politics that restores the trust of the British people
6:45
and one that works better. And at the moment, Henry, we have a system which is holding back our country
6:50
and it's precisely because the system is broken because the Labour Party and the Conservative Party have been unable to fix it
6:57
because they think that they benefit from it in the longer term. And at the moment, reform is now running rings around everybody else
7:03
including Labour and the Tories and the Electoral Commission, because those rules are not tight enough
7:07
We need urgent action to save our liberal democracy. Lastly, do you think these rules will prohibit some of that money going to reform then
7:17
Do you think, in essence, they'll get the full £72 million? I have absolutely no idea but it was really interesting earlier today when Angela Rayner was kind of implying that she was going to do something about it and it might be backdated It looks to me Henry that these were holding lines to last the weekends while they were working out what they were going to do
7:35
But this does reflect a weakness on the part of the government on this particular issue
7:40
And I think people on the what you would call the broader sort of moderate and progressive and forward looking side of politics are asking some really difficult questions of the Labour Party because they have been far too slow to act on this
7:52
OK, sorry, I did say lastly, but ultimately I have to remind you that your party was in government
7:58
and could have changed some of this between the coalition years of 2010-2015
8:02
I get that £36 million is a new problem, but millions of pounds worth of donations are not a new issue
8:09
I mean, the Lib Dems have been caught up in issues with donors in the past as well, way before 2010
8:15
The point is, Henry, that we're the people who want to actually change the rules. So we could have a level playing field. We can only play by the rules that exist
8:21
So why didn't you? Why didn't you then during the coalition government? Well, we were the minor party in a coalition government
8:27
But as you always boast, you got 75% in your manifesto through. So why not this
8:33
If you look back to the coalition years, the amount of donations that were coming into politics
8:37
were nothing like the amount that's coming in now and nothing in the order of £36 million single donations in a weekend
8:43
No, but let's not forget, let's remember Michael Brown then who gave £2.4 million to the Lib Dems
8:48
and was convicted of stealing £36 million from clients and was on the run from the police
8:53
I mean, and that was before 2010. So, as I say, this has been an issue for some time
8:59
Of course, it's a big issue. Henry, I'm on here to tell you that the Liberal Democrats
9:03
are the party that's actually committed to doing something about it if we end up in a government
9:08
And it's not just about donations, by the way. It's those other issues that I was talking about to do with the voting system
9:13
to do with how we have politics running in Parliament as well. We are committed to actually bringing about those proper reforms
9:19
if you want to talk about things that happened in the mid-naughties when you and I were both
9:24
in short trousers and I had a full head of hair then we can talk about that as long as we
9:28
like but I think it's better to look at the future here and what we can
9:32
do and I'm telling you today that the Liberal Democrats have been calling
9:36
for this for quite some time and we're committed to doing something about it if we ever end up in power
9:40
in future. It's good to hear from you Max, thank you for joining us, I enjoyed your video speaking of
9:44
lack of hair as well about what bald people have achieved in Britain which was very good
9:48
check out Max's Twitter to see that video. It was very entertaining. That's Max Wilkinson
9:53
who's Liberal Democrat Home Affairs spokesperson. He's the MP for Cheltenham
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