Should Man City be relegated to park football? | LBC callers react

0:00
If you are a City fan, how do you feel about the fact that your football club
0:06
your beloved football club's name, has been dragged through the mud in this very public and humiliating manner
0:12
Do you think there is any case to answer? Or do you think that you've deliberately been chastised in this way
0:18
and that you're going to fight and you're going to win? And if you're not a City fan, one of those many teams that believes
0:25
that they were robbed during that period of dominance that they've had
0:29
you could say since 2012, I guess, in many ways. What are your views on this
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What do you think? Should Man City be relegated to playing park football
0:39
Because there have to be consequences, don't there, when clubs are deemed to have written roughshod over rules
0:46
I should say first, I've got no skin in the game here, as I'm a Brighton supporter
0:51
I'm not looking for Man City to be kicked out of the league
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or anything like that. I have to say, it's the supporters of Man City that I feel sorry for
1:02
I think the board and the management and the owners ought to be held personally responsible for breaching these rules
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And they're the people who ought to be fined heavily. At the end of the day, there's loads of Middle Eastern money flooding into Manchester City
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And they must have known exactly what they were doing when they did it. So why should, you know, little Joe on the terraces, who wears a light blue scarf who's been following City for goodness knows how many years, be penalised for the next three or four years as a result of what a crooked businessman has done, basically, or was alleged to have done
1:37
Well, I understand that. And obviously City is going to be appealing this
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And they've appealed before in the past. And actually, one, I mean, this happened to them before
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I mean, City's first effort was to, this is, I'm just thinking back now to the UEFA charges
1:52
that were brought against City a few years ago. They went to the Court of Arbitration for Sport
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to challenge the legitimacy of the UEFA investigation back then. And after this two-year ban on the Champions League football
2:04
they then won. And now they're arguing that corner again. But Sean, look, I understand the point you're making
2:10
but if you are a club and you have your management or your owners or whoever they are
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rules have been circumvented. That is the argument, right? And rules that were put in place for a very good reason
2:22
which was to effectively to manage an arms race between clubs so that you have rules around this
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So you don't have people breaking away and doing their own thing, right? Where there were no limits imposed before
2:32
So there are very good reasons in theory behind these rules. Now, if those rules have been circumvented, if you are little Johnny wearing your pale blue T-shirt on a Saturday and whatever
2:44
I mean, you are going to have to pay the price, aren't you? Because your management's basically not agreed to the rules and done you over
2:51
Well, to a degree. But then if I'm looking at it as a business, if I'm a business and I put my house up as collateral
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effectively, for money that I'm borrowing to plough into a business and I breach taxation law
3:04
then they'll come for me. They won't come for the business necessarily
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So, you know, I can't help but feel, I understand what you're saying
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And I think there has to be, I'm not saying there shouldn't be some penalty or other. And I think there should be some sort of penalty
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But I don't think it helps anybody really if you get Man City. I mean, there was talk this morning when I was listening
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that they could end up being thrown out of the premiership and then there's no obligation on the football league
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to let them in. As you quite rightly said, They could be playing National League football
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But then, Sean, look, because this has got wider ramifications for society, right
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I mean, obviously, it's a football story. But I look upon this as a thing about, you know, adhering to the rules and doing the right thing
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and punishment for consequences for not doing the right thing, allegedly, right
3:50
Well, they've been found guilty. They're going to appeal it, right? So the guilt is there. I mean, if they need to be relegated to the bottom league and work their way up
3:58
I mean, it won't be the first time in history that that's been done. I mean, it's been done before. Well, it happened to Rangers
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It did. It happened to Rangers. Exactly that. And I know they'd have to work with it
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I just feel that we're punishing the wrong people. I just feel that we're..
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So what would you do, Sean? What would you do? Dock some points? Find them? What? Well, I'd find out which of the directors
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knew what was actually going on, which I know sounds easier said than done
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but find out who they banned them as directors first and foremost
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And I'd also find them extremely heavily. And not just, well, the club, I wouldn't necessarily
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but not just the club, I'd find the individual directors and the people who brought the money in
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because they knew what they were doing. I don't know whether you can... I mean, it's like, you know, you're holding the whole of the supporter base
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responsible for what the management of a club is. I do understand that, Sean, but you mentioned Rangers
4:55
and it's very interesting because back then in 2011, the majority owner Sir David Murray sold his 85% stake in Rangers Football Club
5:03
to this venture capitalist Craig White, right, for a nominal fee. From that point, White apparently assumed the existing 18 million overdraft
5:11
Then they had a situation where it was revealed that White had funded the takeover
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by mortgaging 24 million of the club's future season ticket sales. And the club failed to pay millions of pounds in basic PAY income tax and VAT to HMRC
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HMRC. They were unable to pay a nine million tax bill and then they were basically relegated
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right to the bottom tier. They were. Yeah, they were. I mean
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it's a precedent, so it probably will happen, and I'm not saying it doesn't
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but I just don't think it's right to penalise the supporters. All right, sure
5:44
Very good to speak to you. Thank you. Stephen in Bushy. Stephen. Hi, good afternoon
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Afternoon. Okay, right. The first thing I'd do is I'd relegate them right to the bottom
5:52
of the division. Why? Okay. Pardon? Why? Why? Because the club have basically
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taken a diabolical liberty. They slaughtered British football. Everything that football stands for in this country
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is honesty, integrity. You know we dealing with a Middle Eastern conglomerate who they just feel they can pay their way out of any situation Maybe in that part of the world they can Well hang on a second I mean we also had Chelsea in trouble before They were banned from
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registering new players in 2019 because they violated FIFA regulations. Hold on, hold on
6:27
Again, a Middle Eastern... Well, it wasn't. It was Russian. Can't blame the Middle Eastens for that
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No, OK. I'll rephrase that. They don't seem to understand we have rules and regulations
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in this country and either abide by them or not. I personally feel that
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that the owners of this club, the ownership should be taken away from them. Simple as that
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They shouldn't be allowed to be involved in football in this country. It's disgusting
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It's just, it actually makes me feel sick. You've had clubs that basically
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well, runners up in the cups, they should be awarded the title
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They should all be taken away from Man City and start at the bottom again
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as if they're a new club entering the leagues. That's it. So at the bottom rung of English football
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So not even docking points and actually keeping them in the Premier League
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but just putting them down to the bottom league in the whole thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't you think that's a bit extreme
7:20
Well, don't you think what they've done is extreme? Well, I think that, frankly, if you circumvent rules in this manner
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and you're doing it to give yourself an advantage on a football field, that is wrong and it should be punished quite severely
7:31
Yeah, basically they've been cheating for the last seven years and they've basically been sticking their two fingers up
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but the bureaucracy that runs football in this country. It just makes me feel sick
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But do you think it's a foreign owner point? Because some people would say, well, hang on a second
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what about Everton? What about Nottingham Forest? I mean, they also had issues in the past
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I don't know if they had foreign owners, did they? Well, no, but if somebody's dishonest, they're dishonest
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It's just they've gone to the extreme. You know, look, we know people are dishonest
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But they've gone to the nth degree to circumnavigate any rules through any regulations and they feel..
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I mean, they were paying the manager, giving him bonuses in cash. They were giving players bonuses in cash
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That's going back to the 1960s. So which league do we send them down to
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Division 4. Division 4. All right, Stephen, thank you very much indeed for your view
8:23
Appreciate it. Antonio, first-time caller in Hawley. Antonio, good afternoon. Afternoon, Ali
8:29
Educate me. What's going on here? How are we going to this mess? Well, I was actually calling
8:35
because of the previous call. who are saying he felt sorry for the City fans. And I just disagree
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I don't feel sorry for them because this rumour, these allegations that have now come true
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have been in the media for years and years. They've known about it
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And they've not... I haven't seen any protests, any calls for some honesty from their club
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So, yeah, I don't particularly feel sorry for the fans. Do you think, Antonio
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that you can divorce the current performance of the club? I believe that they're leading the current Premier League at the moment
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Do you think you can divorce it from what's gone before in some way? Or is it you build on the shoulders of what's come before you
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And if you've basically won through cheating, effectively, before, then it casts aspersions on your present performance as well
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because everything's linked. And therefore, the only way to deal with this is not simply by docking a few points in the current season
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but it's actually either expelling them from the league or relegating them like several leagues down
9:37
Yeah, I think. Perhaps I'm a bit biased because I am an Arsenal fan
9:43
Well, you've got skin in the game. You're not exactly an impartial observer. Yeah, I would
9:50
Possibly there. I'm trying to be level-headed about it. And I just think, I mean, I was disgusted by Chelsea's conduct
9:56
Remind us what Chelsea did. I remember now, but you remind us. Go on. similar allegations that, you know
10:04
they came forward that they had deliberately circumvented rules in signing players
10:10
That's correct. The FIFA International Transfer Regulations, a three-year investigation. At the time, you know, as fans watching the sport
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we all knew what was going on. We could see it. It was clear. They were buying the best players
10:26
and spending millions and millions and millions that no other club could match
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So just take me back to first principles, will you, for a second
10:34
as a football fan, Antonio. Park City's infringement or not of these rules, right
10:41
What is the purpose of having rules around spending in football? What is the principle behind it? Why bother
10:48
I think it's to make it more of a level playing field, right? Exactly, that's what I would have thought, yeah
10:54
So you don't have a Super League. But then the reality of it is, Antonio, that even if you take that into account
10:59
you are still going to have a Super League with the biggest spenders within the league, aren't you
11:03
You're never going to get round that completely, are you? Yeah, there's always going to be a group of teams
11:08
that have a larger support base. Some of it's global, and they just bring in more money
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just from their, I don't want to say relevance, but popularity and their fan base
11:24
Well, it's very interesting. Yeah, go on, go on. We're talking about foreign states investing in football
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and there's all kinds of things in that, of sports washing. There is, which is a related but slightly different issue
11:41
in terms of sports washing. Even if you're sports washing, you can still stick to the rules
11:45
And as I understand it, the central premise of the Premier League's new rules
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that were introduced some years ago was to protect the sustainability of the game
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by limiting how much a club's expenditure could exceed their earnings from three pillars of natural income
12:01
broad cost and commercial revenue, as well as fan spending on tickets and merchandise
12:05
That was the idea behind it. So if people are trying to do transactions
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that are related party transactions, which are not transparent and trying to get around this
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to basically inflate the amount that they can play to players in the transfer window
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whatever it may be, that is basic, a circumvention of the rules
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and that is wrong. This is a huge story, isn't it? My own thoughts on it of course they got to be punished with this Playing park football perhaps is not the way to go but there got to be an appropriate punishment
12:39
But I also wanted to highlight a couple of other things that have really bugged me for a number of years now
12:45
and it is clubs like City that make the best use of this situation
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and that is things like the January transfer window. That needs to be scrapped because what that does, that creates uncertainty and instability within football
13:07
And it is the big clubs with the financial muscle who are successful, inverted commas, who take advantage of it
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We should be in a situation where you do all your transfer dealings in the summer and then what you've got with, you stick with
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And I will add to that, it's the same with managers. Spurs last year changed their manager three times
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They took the financial hit on that because they were desperately wanting to stay up
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So I think we've got to do two things. You've got a manager, you're stuck with him
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No January transfer window. We have to create a way more stable level playing field
13:50
Equitable. Equitable. Yeah. Okay, but that's fine. and I think you're making some really, really interesting suggestions here, Terence
13:57
What should happen to City specifically? Well, obviously, they're going to appeal it till the cows come home, aren't they
14:04
They are. You think they're going to be successful like they were before? No, not necessarily
14:09
And there is another aspect to this. Could you look at Newcastle, what happened to Newcastle
14:14
I'm a West Ham supporter. So we've been going through this ownership thing very recently
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with a certain individual that was at Newcastle, tried to buy West Ham
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and also brokered the deal at Man City. Now, you may want to ask
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now, they are financial advisors, so what sort of advice were they giving City
14:36
OK. And what sort of advice were they giving Newcastle? OK. Because they've both fallen foul of that
14:42
Well, very good point. Terence, thank you, appreciate it. Paul in Harrow. Good afternoon, Paul
14:46
Hi, Ali. Yeah, first of all, I thought it was quite ironic you were talking about park football
14:50
at the last quarter was from Hackney. It's a very good point, actually, yes
14:55
Yeah, what it is, is that I've been looking at this with a passion
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and I saw the headline come up yesterday, and I thought, yes. Now, the EFL, only this year
15:06
kicked Southampton out of the playoffs because of Cheatgate with the Spygate thing
15:12
and they acted on it. The Scottish Football Association kicked Glasgow Rangers back to the third tier of Scottish football
15:20
and they've had to work their way back. That's true. And also, with Man City
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I quickly checked it before I came on here, they have spent the most money
15:28
in the last transfer window. Yep. And the ramifications with this go deep
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And it's teams like Man City that have caused Leicester. Your Aston Villa caller was quite right
15:38
They've sold their best players because the system has allowed them. I'm a fan of the NFL
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and the NFL look for equality. They make the weakest team get the strongest draft pick
15:51
and they work it down to the 32 teams. And Man City are the cause of teams like..
15:58
You think they've skewed it? You think they've skewed the whole league and messed it all up? Oh, for sure, for sure
16:02
The managers, even the managers, I researched this. And the managers, the manager merry-go-round is ridiculous
16:08
OK, but Paul, you're never going to have, whatever you say, you're never going to have a level playing field
16:13
This isn't like socialism in football, right? We're not going to have a communist football league
16:16
where everyone has exactly the same level and ability of player and they all get played the same and there's a salary gap
16:23
It's not going to happen, right? But there were rules that were put in place. Those were apparently circumvented by City
16:28
What should now happen to them? No, look, Ali, they should go to the bottom. Look, Infantino was trying to create something..
16:34
A bottom of where? What, the lowest league? They should go to the lowest league and start their way up
16:40
just like Scotland did with Glasgow Rangers. OK, OK, Paul, thank you. Appreciate your view
16:46
David in Twickenham. David. Hello, Ali. Thanks for taking the call. Pleasure
16:50
I'm a Chelsea supporter. I'm not bothered about what Manchester City has done off the pitch
16:54
But you guys had your own issues, David. I mean, you're not exactly beyond reproach
16:58
Hang on, Ali. Right. OK, a couple of the other corners have slightly gone off topic
17:03
What I will say about Mr Abramovich was, right, the amount of tax he paid to the British government
17:09
what he did for COVID, giving the hotels over and paying for all the meals
17:13
for the National Health staff, what he did for anti-racism what he did for the women's game
17:22
what he did when the war in Ukraine and Russia started trying to broker peace
17:27
and he still got hammered but they broke rules right I get it
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make your point then I'll come back well Manchester City won what they won on the pitch
17:39
within the 90 minutes and there's all kinds of controversies before the maximum wage was abolished
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football clubs used to get around paying players by way of buying them a house
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or buying them a car and it's always gone on and you know you talk about
17:56
you had it right you're never going to have a communist league one of the biggest clubs
18:03
in the world let alone Spain sponsored by the king they've got millions and millions invested in them
18:11
and you know it's a fact of life. Whoever's got the most money is going to shout the loudest
18:17
But I understand that point, David, and I don't think you're ever going to get round that. And if you've got an owner with dip pockets
18:22
and you can actually spend more, then I guess so be it, as long as it doesn't become completely ridiculous
18:26
and that you don't circumvent the rules that are put in place for a very good reason
18:30
However, however, we are where we are now. What do you think should happen, if anything, to City
18:36
Are you saying that, look, it is what it is, you know, this is how football works
18:39
they should be let off with what? Nothing? I think they should get a fine
18:44
But the trouble with relegating them is it takes the place of another club who completely innocent of anything That a really good point That a really good point Yes you right it would
18:55
So you think a fine is the best way of doing it? Yeah, or maybe a points deduction
19:01
but relegating them is going to take away the place of somebody you might have
19:06
That's a very good point, actually. I hadn't thought about that. It's a very good point. David, thank you. Appreciate it
19:11
Gerry in Croydon. Gerry, good afternoon. Good afternoon, Harry. I think that City should be
19:17
relocated down to the National League North, the sixth tier, and it should be fined £300 million
19:24
Where's £300 million coming from, Gerry? Well, they've got it in the bank
19:29
No, no, no, but why £300? Why £300? Why not more? Why not less
19:33
Why £300? I'm just saying that as an option. OK, OK. And the second option
19:40
is that City can stay in the Premier League, but they fined £34 billion
19:46
Now that's interesting. They got the money and this money could be spent
19:51
on improving facilities on non-league clubs. Well, I like your idea of giving them a choice
19:57
So you can either take relegation and a fine of £300 million and a fine of £300 million
20:03
or you can stay where you are in the Premier League but it's going to cost you billions. I quite like that, Gerry
20:08
If you're going to make the punishment fit the crime, the crime lasted nine seasons. Yes
20:13
So I would relegate them to League Two, but I'd relegate them with the provider
20:17
that they can't gain promotion for five years. Oh, that's pretty tough
20:21
And then by the time they fight their way back through the leagues
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they're going to be out of the Premier League for eight to nine years, which is the amount of time that the crimes have taken over eight to nine years
20:32
Sounds fair. So if you're going to make the punishment fit the crime
20:36
you make it last the same amount of time as the crime itself
20:40
that they're out of the Premier League for eight or nine years. So they're going to lose eight or nine years of European money
20:48
which is probably another seven or eight hundred million over that eight or nine years
20:53
And it's going to cost them. And that is the only way that you're going to show the league in general
21:00
that the league have got to be tough, otherwise it's just going to carry on
21:05
But I do think the Premier League are partly responsible for this
21:09
because the amount of money that has come into the game since Sky took over in 1992 with the broadcasting rights
21:16
the regulations, it's just left wide open to dishonesty and corruption. With that amount of money up for grabs
21:25
I do think that the actual administrators have had their eye off the ball over the last 30 years
21:31
I think they've got to take a bit of a responsibility as well. So, Chris, your argument about matching the punishment to fit the crime
21:38
is a very seductive one and a very persuasive one. So I can see where you're coming from
21:42
Do you think that there is also, in addition, or perhaps instead of
21:48
a case for stripping City's titles historically and giving them to the person
21:53
or sorry, not the person, the club who finished second? For example, Mikel Arteta, the Arsenal
22:00
I think they finished second in 2022, they would be one. Watford, my old club, FA Cup 2019
22:05
I mean, there are going to be several, several instances, right, where people are going to be then up-tiered
22:10
who have been hard done by. Do you think that that's fair or not? Oh, yeah, I see where you're coming from
22:14
But the problem you've got is every position in the Premier League
22:18
is paid out in prize money. Good point. So you could work your way down the league
22:26
and say, well, my club might have finished two places higher if they hadn't taken four points
22:30
or six points off us in that season. So do they owe us another, you know
22:34
a million and a half for each position in the league all the way through the league system. You could say each club is owed several million pounds in positional fees
22:42
Well, there's a potential, by the way, for clubs to come forward with compensation requests to City directly
22:50
for hundreds of millions of pounds. That could also be part of this, Chris
22:54
Do you think that should be part of it as well? The way I would look at it
22:59
as a way of trying to just ease the administration of that
23:03
and all these different... Over that nine years, there's been, in theory, 27 clubs relegated
23:09
three in each year. So I would possibly look at something like a point of a fixed fee
23:16
of maybe 50 million for each of the relegated clubs. That's going to cost them a billion and a half
23:20
That's an interesting way of doing it, yeah. If every relegated club got 50 million quid
23:26
that's about a billion and a half or 1.6 billion roughly over that nine years
23:32
I hadn't thought about the relegated clubs, but it's a very good point. Because you've got the relegated clubs
23:36
That's going to cost... I mean, if those relegated clubs lost... City had done the double over them, for instance
23:45
and take six points off them. But when you think Everton were doing ten points initially
23:51
for their breach, you know, you've got to be hard. The only way you're going to do it is to be hard
23:59
But you've got to be hard. You've got to stick to it. Well, Everton got a ten-point deduction
24:03
This was back in 2023. and then I think they were hit with a further two-point deduction
24:07
for a separate financial breach, and that fallout went to the civil courts
24:11
Independent Commission ordered Everton to pay a landmark £35 to £40 million in compensation to Burnley Football Club
24:18
Yeah. So, yeah, there's precedent there. And it's... I think you can go all the way through the league
24:25
You could end up with hundreds and hundreds of court cases, and I just think the administration of that will get hard to do
24:32
I just think that... Well, it also, and this is a point that's been made by Martin Samuel in his piece
24:40
and this is a classic one. He says, the idea that English football has the best league in the world
24:44
therefore becomes laughable, as no doubt Javier Tebas, president of La Liga, will soon announce
24:49
Until now, he could be accused of jealousy. Not anymore. He has a point
24:53
Chris, thank you for your call. Well, we're just looking at the English clubs. If the European clubs start getting involved in this
24:59
they've lost out to City in the Champions League. because they've got as much right to sue as the English clubs have
25:05
Very good point. Will it never end

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