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Stand Up To Racism's Lewis Nielsen joins Tom Swarbrick to defend the council trying to ban Union Jacks and St George's flags. A Liberal Democrat-run council has become the first local authority to launch a legal battle aiming to block the activity. It comes after flags were raised on motorway bridges and lamp-posts across Oxfordshire, with many remaining on display since last year’s “Operation Raise the Colours”. The campaign went viral on social media last summer and saw hundreds if not thousands of flags raised all across the country. Many councils sparked backlash after taking them down, while critics accused the movement of stoking division. Oxfordshire county council has now gone further in its attempt to ban locals from putting them up in the first place. It has applied for a High Court injunction and a hearing will take place on June 23. The council said on Wednesday: “Residents across Oxfordshire, from Adderbury to Wallingford, have complained to the council about safety risks, intimidation and distress linked to this activity. “The ongoing scale and persistence of the behaviour by Raise the Colours has created safety risks, caused distress within communities, and led to abuse and intimidation directed at council teams and residents.” Anyone who puts up flags near public highways Oxfordshire could face up to two years in prison or a substantial fine if the council’s legal action succeeds. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #tomswarbrick #uk #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
So get the flag on your car, drape it out the window, but not perhaps in Oxfordshire
0:04
Oxfordshire County Council launching a legal battle to ban raising union flags and others in the street
0:10
The Liberal Democrat-led authority has applied for a High Court injunction to stop people placing flags on nearby public highways
0:16
If the injunction succeeds, anyone who puts up flags near roads in the area could face up to two years in prison or an unlimited fine
0:26
You might be aware that the Cross of St George Union flags
0:29
they've become now a regular site on various landposts up and down the country after this Raise the Colours campaign took off on social media, I think last summer
0:38
And councils have set about removing those flags, painting over St George's cross markings on roundabouts and stuff
0:44
That has obviously attracted a bit of criticism. Oxfordshire Council have become the first, though
0:48
to announce that it is seeking an injunction against four individuals to prohibit them from putting up flags near major roads
0:56
It will also apply to other members of the public who put flags up near roads as well
1:00
Council spokesperson saying, Residents across Oxfordshire from Adderbre to Wallingford have complained to the council about safety risks
1:08
intimidation and distress linked to this activity. The ongoing scale and persistence of the behaviour by Raise the Colours
1:17
has created safety risks, caused distress within communities and led to abuse and intimidation directed at council teams and residents
1:24
The council insisted it had no concerns about flags flown on private property unless they obstructed drivers' views
1:32
I mean, fair? If you want to put a flag up, as we have on the car, no problem
1:39
You can put it up on the car, you can put it up on the van, you can put it up on your house, you can put it up on your neighbour's hedge with their permission
1:44
you can stick it on the local pub, but not the lamppost, that's not your property
1:49
Is that fair? You can still put a flag up, but not over there. Or would that make you still feel distress at driving past, frankly, anybody or some people with an England flag on the top of their car
2:04
And if you've put an England flag on the top of your car, is there a little bit of worry in the back of your mind
2:09
Oh, maybe someone's going to get the wrong impression. Oh, whoops. 0345 6060 973
2:15
Is this the kind of action you want a council, your council, to be taking? Lewis Nielsen is an anti-fascist officer at Stand Up to Racism
2:23
Thank you very much, Steve, for coming on the programme, Lewis. Do you think it's right to seek this injunction to stop people putting up the St George's Cross or the union flag
2:31
Well, look, the real issue at hand here is the fact that Raise the Colours are a fascist group
2:36
and that's who the injunction are against. And if you look at Raise the Colours, one of their leading figures has just been charged with murder
2:43
Another leading figure on the weekend was a video that Brighton assaulting a woman
2:47
and the flags that are donated to them come from Paul Golding
2:51
who leads Britain First, which is a neo-Nazi sect that's split from the British National Party
2:55
That's who the injunction's against, right? Just to be clear, if the injunction succeeds
3:02
anyone who puts up flags near roads in the area could face up to two years in prison or unlimited fine
3:06
I understand that the main emphasis might be the organisation that has started this back in the summer
3:12
but the injunction would apply to anybody and everybody. i know but this is the issue at hand here though tom isn't it that a fascist group
3:19
have led a campaign to try and get flags up to try and create a climate of fear against migrants
3:25
and refugees and black people i'd say that's what's going on in oxford and that's what raise
3:29
the colors are doing we should oppose them in doing that and i think it's good that activists
3:34
and anti-racists have taken down the flags of fascist groups who put them up and on yesterday
3:39
when toby robinson was in oxford speaking at the oxford union there are about 500 people protesting
3:44
outside this is a good thing i think considering as you are well aware tom the scenes we saw in
3:49
belfast last week and in southampton the week before where they weaponized these horrible murders
3:53
there's there's a distinction to be made though isn't there between um someone who does it on
3:59
behalf of of a particular group and someone who's doing it having been inspired by that group do you
4:06
see a distinction there at all or not really they're all one and the same well i think that
4:11
if a fascist group are using this to try and push, we know the kind of dangerous politics that has led to riots
4:17
led to pogroms, I'd argue, in Belfast. I think it means that we're right to say that those people
4:23
should be opposed in doing that. If people want to support whatever team at the World Cup, that's fine
4:28
I'm not, you know, I'm a Spurs fan. I'm used to disappointments at World Cups
4:32
I'm not particularly supporting England. I'm supporting the underdogs, as I always like to do. But I think we've got to separate that out from the fact
4:38
that there's a fascist group who are trying their absolute hardest here to whip up a horrible climate for migrants and refugees in this country
4:44
I guess the difficulty is, and it's the fault of those people who are determinedly whipping things up
4:49
and there are people who are determinedly whipping things up, I agree with you, it's then very difficult, isn't it
4:54
for someone to distinguish between the person who's supporting the English football team with a flag on their car
5:00
or out their house window, and somebody who's doing it for nefarious purposes
5:05
How would you distinguish between the two? Well, to be honest, Tom, that's not my job, right
5:11
My job is I'm the outcastious officer at Stand Up to Racism, and our ysis and our research has shown
5:16
exactly like I've said, that these are the people behind it, right? We do have to question why it is that the far right
5:22
have led this campaign of putting up flags. Why do you think that is? They are using it and linking it to the question of racism, aren't they
5:30
To call for mass deportations, to whip up Islamophobia. There is a link between these two things
5:35
And I think if people decide that they don't want their communities to look like that, that they don't want all these St George's flags up
5:42
I think that's their right to do so, and I support them in doing that. I guess, though, it's how you then tell
5:49
or whether or not there's a sort of chilling effect during a World Cup, of people who want to show their support for the football team putting a flag up
5:56
Do you think there will be because there's been these incidents of using the flag for other purposes, perhaps
6:04
Yeah, but I'm a bit confused here, Tom, because I don't think we should pretend that people aren't allowed to wear England shirts
6:12
or put up England flags during the World Cup. I mean I was watching the game last night The idea that it not England flags up in Britain is just ridiculous No I agree But let not create a moral panic about that No no I not creating a moral panic about it People will do it they won
6:24
I just, I guess there is, there will be for some people a feeling that if they put an England flag up in their house or on their car to celebrate the team
6:33
they might be viewed as some as aligned with that particular movement that you say is out to cause merry hell
6:40
and whether or not there's a decision about, well, actually, we push through that
6:44
because the flag isn't theirs, it's everybody's. This is a much bigger debate, Tom, though, isn't it
6:50
Can the Union Jack and the St George's Cross be reclaimed from the far right
6:55
My personal view is I don't think it can. I don't want to be flying the same flag
6:59
that Tommy Robinson has draped around his neck, that Nigel Farage does
7:03
And I think for a lot of people, the Union Jack and the St George's Cross
7:07
are associated with some of the worst elements of the British Empire and what Britain has done overseas
7:12
I think that's so sad. So I very much understand that. I think that's so sad. I think there are lots of things that can bring us together, right
7:18
We are, where I live in London, where my family live up north
7:23
there are communities around this country who do come together, multiracial, multireligious communities who work together
7:29
who live together, who have fun together. That's what brings us together
7:33
That kind of unity is important. but I don't think you need the St George's flag or the Union Jack to say that
7:38
People can enjoy the World Cup, support whatever team they want, but we should question why it is that it's become an icon for the far right
7:45
Why is it the symbol that the far right have on all the demonstrations? And you, as a result of the far right using it as a symbol
7:54
you wouldn't want to use it as a symbol for anything else, including the celebration of... You personally wouldn't want to use it as a symbol of anything else
8:00
including celebrating the national team. I don't think you need to fly the flag to enjoy the football game
8:08
No, I agree, I agree, but if you wanted to Is the reason that you don't want to in part because it's a symbol used by the far right
8:15
Well, I don't fly the symbol George's flag, right? My personal decision
8:19
A stand-up to racism, we're not telling people what flags they fly, what kicks they wear
8:23
But isn't the point to stand up to racism, part of the standing up to it
8:27
to say, no, no, no, you can't just use this as a symbol for yourselves
8:31
far-right racist thugs. We need to take it back. We need to stand up to it
8:36
So, yes, I am going to put the St George's Cross on my car during the World Cup because I want to support England. I know, but you do have to appreciate, Tom
8:43
that the legacy of that flag, the legacy of the Union Jack
8:47
is one which comes with a history. Whether you like it or not, it comes with the history of slavery
8:52
the history of colonialism, the history of conquering a quarter of the world and using force to do that
8:56
But white men were also connected, Lewis, to that history. White men were involved in that slave trade
9:02
White men were involved in that colonialism. I don't feel, though, that every time I see a white man
9:07
I think, well, they must be a racist or they must have had something to do with that colonialist past
9:13
I'm able to distinguish between the two, I think. A ridiculous thing to say
9:18
Why? I don't see what point you're trying to make there. I think the point I'm making is you're generalising
9:24
You're saying that the history that that flag is connected to therefore determines its present and its future
9:28
And I don't think that's reasonable. I know, but Tom, we have to address what that flag was flown above
9:36
the British colonies that it was flown above, the slave ships that it was flown above
9:41
We do have to take that into context. It's also flown above the Houses of Parliament and Buckingham Palaces
9:46
and people's vans and cars. Well, yeah, the British Empire, the King and Queen and the monarchs
9:52
who oversaw the British Empire, I'm not surprised it's flown over their house. You don't want anything to do with it
9:59
Well, I think the bigger question here, Tom, is that in Britain we face the biggest threat from the far right we ever have
10:05
Nigel Farage is top of the polls, there's Tommy Robinson on the street, and you've also now got Restore Britain
10:10
Those people are spreading a hard racist agenda, hard Islamophobia, and I think we're in a dangerous situation
10:17
as the riots in recent weeks and years have shown, right? We are not going to stop that rise of racism if we don't have an approach which says that the unity we need is one that rejects every attempt they use to divide us
10:33
And in Oxford, those flags have been put up to try and divide ordinary people and divide our communities
10:39
It is a good thing that people are opposing that. Surely you must agree with that. No, I agree. I think it is right that people oppose that kind of fascism, racism where they find it
10:47
Now, I think there is a difference, isn't there, between no flag raising at all, you're not allowed to do it ever
10:52
and saying, don't do it on a lamppost, it's not your property, we've got to go and take it down, blah, blah, blah, rules, la, la, la
10:58
But van, car, house, neighbours, pub, sure, go for it. I think that's OK
11:03
Like, I think there's a distinction between those two things. That's fine. When they talk about the reason for doing this as well is part of, is the consideration for the distress linked to the activity
11:14
okay there will be some people that are clearly upset by this because they see through what some
11:20
people would describe as the facade of pretending this is about patriotism when actually it is
11:25
something more far darker but i can't go as far as um our chat from stand up to racism there who
11:33
says well we can't touch it ever now because it's been so contaminated by those people who wish to
11:38
use it as a vehicle for their fascism and their racism and as paul says here paul from tunbridge
11:42
show he's clearly a good man um and i wish i thought of this paul but you know the brain's
11:46
not working with a late night more people have fought against fascism under the union flag than
11:51
have waived it for fascism absolutely damn right and that's why i will i have put the england flag
11:58
on my car and there's uh the england flag hanging in our house for the world we cannot let the people
12:04
who want to use this for their nefarious purposes claim it forever we shouldn't be scared of it
12:09
Marelle's in Barnet. Marelle. We don have in France Italy Denmark They wouldn stand But for some reason the left have told us
12:45
that everybody who flies the flag is a fascist, OK? And if I was a black Brit and watching the football
12:53
and cheering England on and I had the flag there, I'd be so insulted to think that I can't support my country
13:00
That's what he's saying. That's exactly what he's saying. and it's wrong
13:04
I think he's making a choice, isn't he? His view is, and there will be others who share this view
13:10
why would I share the symbol of the people who hate either me
13:16
or this country or people of different skin colours, the fascists and the racists, why would I share in their symbol
13:24
If the symbol was something else, they're trying to take that away from the overwhelming majority
13:30
of thoroughly decent good people who are proud of this country and want to support it
13:35
Of course they are. And they're giving voice to the bad people
13:39
Every society has bad people. But I do not believe for one second that the majority of people
13:45
that fly the flag of this country hate everybody, which is what he's saying
13:50
He's saying that if you fly the flag of your country, you support the football
13:53
or you just support the country, you're a bad person. Or there's a chance that you might be a bad person
14:01
which is, again, why I asked him about how you distinguish between the two. It's very difficult. Morel, thank you very much indeed
14:07
Indeed, Chris says, sorry, Jim says that. Tom Lewis is a good guy
14:11
However, if I put a flag in my garden and people see me as racist because of it, that's not on me
14:15
It's like saying all the Palestinian flags in London every week are carried by bad Islamists
14:19
Imagine that, says Jim. Joe's in Tooting. Hi, Joe. Good afternoon, Tom
14:23
Can you hear me? Yes, sir. Brilliant. That chap on before, I'm for birthday minority
14:30
and he's got it all wrong. He's got it so wrong. We should be giving the flag out to every British-born person
14:36
and telling them to waive it with pride. I mean, I'm thinking of two things here
14:41
We need to be able to break the link between our representative flags
14:45
and the right, the right, the right, the right wing. We need to be able to break that link
14:53
say that we can all appreciate. I mean, what better compliment would it be
14:59
to the players on the field to see people of their own colour, people who look like them, cheering them on, saying
15:03
yeah, we're all supporting you 100%. If we're not going to do that, if we're going to let these fascists
15:08
tell us and dictate to us what we can and can't do, then we've already lost
15:12
And they just chap things up by doing, by restricting people, forcing them to not raise the flag
15:16
All I have to do is the moderates all get brought into this. They want to raise the flag. And I think if I'm going to be called a racist
15:21
I might as well be here, I might as well act like one. I mean, all he's doing is making the argument against us
15:26
He's making it even worse. We've got to be able to distinguish
15:30
distinguish between the far right and their nefarious purposes and we're advising people and waving with the flag
15:39
Because I wave the flag. I'm going to be getting my English top out. I'm black. I don't care. I'm going to be cheering England all the way
15:44
I'll get my daughter. She plays tennis. I want to represent England. I want my family to be fully integrated
15:50
My family's been British for 400 years than Napoleon, it was, since England took over
15:54
the St. Lucian Island. So, my family, as far as I'm concerned
15:58
are British. We've been British for 400 years. We're not going to stop because some political person decides
16:04
that he wants to take the flag and tell him who he's and who he's not. I couldn't agree with you more
16:11
I really, I think we are going to get into some serious difficulty
16:14
if we follow the lesson that, you know, the idea that we were told
16:20
earlier that because it's a symbol used by the far right we don't want to go anywhere near it um that you don't want to be bound up in their kind of usage of that symbol you don't want to
16:28
you don't want to raise a question in people's other people's minds about oh gosh is he one of
16:33
the good people celebrating the country or is he uh a fascist who's hiding behind the flag you don't
16:38
even raise that question so why use it well then we might as well wave goodbye to it and give it
16:41
over exactly thank you tom that's exactly the point i was trying to make the gentleman's right
16:45
about this business of association with those flags. And as a proud white middle-class Englishman
16:53
I absolutely support anything that's reasonable. It's not reasonable to allow those flags to go up in public spaces and not others
17:00
And, you know, if I was confronted with a chap who put one up, I'd just point that out to him and I would expect him to appreciate the point, you know
17:07
because that's, to me, that's Britishness. Reasonableness, fair play, balance, civility. And I also think fair play, just from, again, a sort of boring process point, I guess
17:17
I want and have put the England flag up during the World Cup
17:22
I wouldn't attach it to the lamppost outside my house. I put it on my car and I put it out my window, but I'm not going to put it on a lamppost
17:29
Absolutely. That seems reasonable to me. And to me, reasonableness is a very big part of my understanding of me being an Englishman
17:35
And I love what the black British chap, or the chap from an ethnic minority
17:39
described him first and foremost as British. The thing is, Tom, we've reached a place where I'm a reasonable human being and I now understand what that flag means
17:49
So I'm not allowed now because of others and others' projections onto that flag and a minority, a tiny minority of pillock's ability to kind of stain it
18:01
I can't, in all reasonableness, put it up. I can't because I know now how it affects people
18:08
and I'm too British and English and reasonable to want to do that
18:13
And that's a terrible loss to me, and I didn't decide that. Yes, but isn't it unreasonable for people to assume
18:23
that you are siding with the fascists and the racists because you were being fired up during the World Cup
18:28
Exactly, it is. But, see, the thing about it, Tom, is if I'm a principled person
18:32
my principles don't stop because things get difficult. That's when they kick in
18:36
So I don't stop being reasonable just because you're being unreasonable. I expect you to maybe have a look at yourself
18:42
and maybe come to terms with your own unreasonableness. Because I'm too... That's why I believe in that
18:47
So it doesn't change just because you're doing this to me. Because this is a projection onto me utterly ungrounded based on a tiny thin minority Correct Correct And my Matt I absolutely love your militant reasonableness
19:05
It's so good. Radical reasonableness. Radical reasonableness. Yeah. All comers welcome. Yes
19:14
So in deciding who is more reasonable than others, on the decision of whether or not you put an English flag
19:24
in your window for the World Cup, the decision is... Your own
19:29
And your decision is... My decision is not to. Perfectly reasonable. You've logicked your way to that decision
19:38
Mine is yes, I will, because... I'm trying to live out what I believe, and you are too
19:43
and there's absolutely no reason why you should do it. And I would absolutely defend you
19:47
on the basis of the evidence, because this conversation is being dominated by a narrow band of people
19:53
who have a vested interest in convincing the rest of us that we're not who we are
19:59
Matt, I think you're brilliant. I think that's brilliant. I love the radical reasonableness of Matt in Oxford
20:06
Thank you very much indeed for the call. To Clive, who's a new caller in Croydon. Hi, Clive. Hi, how are you doing, Tom
20:11
Yeah, good, sir. Thoughts? Thoughts. It's a very polarised conversation we're having right now
20:17
I think in terms of the last caller, he made some absolutely wonderful points
20:22
But for me as a British person, born in this country, been here for the over 50 years
20:27
I won't get my actual age, but I'm 50 plus. That flag just cringes me
20:33
It cringes me. So any other association with it, I couldn't have that
20:38
I do understand people need to feel proud and I have no issues in waving a flag
20:45
or whatever's going on for it in terms of in a positive manner, but in terms of how it's been utilised
20:50
and how it's been implemented, it's not for me. Now, I'm not going to be looking at everybody
20:54
that is deemed to be English, because there's a difference between English and British
20:59
She's a white British man, woman, they're English, yeah? So in terms of that, if you're flying your flag
21:05
I'm not going to look at you and think that you're on a negative tone or you're racist or anything like that
21:10
but how it's being managed and even managed through government and things that they could do in terms of putting all these flags on the post
21:17
all the councils could have said, all right, then, they missed the trick. They could have put every single flag of international person
21:23
that is associated with this country along the flag. So it would have wiped out that narrative
21:29
You understand what I'm saying? Yes. You then get a kind of United Colours of Benetton style lamppost
21:36
There we go. In terms of me, as a black British man who's born in this country
21:42
in the 60s, I was born in the 60s. In terms of that, I do cringe when I see it
21:48
because I can just go by my history of what's happened to me, you understand
21:53
In terms of growing up, going to school and even living right now
21:58
I work for the council, so I interact with families. I see them all the time and it's interesting
22:03
to see what you can do, what the government and councils can do to what they're not doing
22:08
So this is why, in terms of your original guy, I agree with a lot of things
22:12
what he said in terms of the one who's against the anti-racism and all that kind of stuff
22:17
but I don't agree with trying to tell people what they can do and what they can't do
22:21
or try to demonise them but I also would ask I would also argue against
22:27
coming to the conclusion that because somebody's wearing the England flag or has it out their house or on their car
22:33
that they are associating themselves with racists absolutely, absolutely but you've got to remember
22:39
you're dealing with feelings you understand you're dealing with how something makes you feel systemically how you feel this these are systems that have been put in place to make us feel the
22:48
way we're feeling and what annoys me what really really really annoys me is that um people are
22:54
being made to feel that the english flag that flutters from their village church or or flies
23:00
on their car during world cup is a symbol of something awful or represents um something
23:06
terrible and nefarious and is being determinedly used by those people who want the nefarious things
23:11
to happen um and it's been taken away from the reasonable people and it makes me really angry
23:18
that you are left feeling cringe towards the the flag of the country in which you live i think
23:22
that's terrible but it's not your fault you can't help how you feel about it clive thank you very
23:27
much indeed harry's in wokingham hi harry hi tom how are you doing yeah good sir thoughts
23:32
Big hug for the guy that was just on because I'm the same age, so I kind of feel it the same way
23:38
But I ran for Britain in the 80s. So I've worn the flag with pride
23:44
I coach for England and UK now as a coach in my sport
23:50
and I also mentor the young athletes. And we never talk about racism
23:55
And there's pride in the flag. It will never change. The pride will always be there
24:00
And do you know what? the racist, let them be racist, but they're cowards because, you know
24:05
I think they need to actually wear a banner that says racist
24:09
and not hide behind a flag on a lamppost. Don't use the symbol of the nation
24:17
to covertly nod towards your racism. If you're a racist, go on, show yourself
24:23
Be a racist because, you know what, I live in a predominantly
24:27
now up in Birmingham where there's such a multicultural place. No one gives a damn about this
24:36
They're just getting on with their lives because if someone's racist, it's not my problem
24:42
It really isn't my problem. It might be made to be your problem. It's made to be my problem
24:46
but back in the 80s it was like that, early 70s. You had to stand up for yourself
24:52
Now, as that guy just said, when I see a flag on a lamppost
24:56
it takes you back and it makes you anxious. Well, I can understand that, but I think the response from the overwhelming majority of incredibly reasonable, decent people should not be, oh, OK, it's too toxic for us to touch again. We won't put it on the car during a World Cup. I think that would be a terrible, terrible outcome
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