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A furious Sir Keir Starmer has accused Nigel Farage of 'exploiting' the death of Henry Nowak and 'appealing for rage' in a fiery exchange during PMQs. The PM said that Mr Farage's calls for rage following the murder of 18-year-old Henry Nowak were "unforgivable". Mr Farage had told the House of Commons Britain was living under "two-tier policing" and said: "The instructions that are given to police officers from police bosses are clear and written down in ink. It says you must treat different ethnic groups in different ways." Referring to violent protests against police last night which left 11 officers and a dog injured, Farage said public anger was "in danger of getting considerably worse" as he called on the PM to "take some action" to end two-tier policing. Hitting back, an angry Sir Keir said: "I don't believe there's two-tier policing in this country. "I'm really shocked that he pretends to have respect for Henry's family and then acts in this way. They are a grieving family. "The grieving family have asked us not to respond in the way... they make a simple pledge to us as human beings to please not exploit that. 'His response has been to appeal for rage. Rage. "That's his response to a father who has lost his son and asked this not to happen. To do it when the family are expressly saying please don't is unforgivable. It shows exactly who he is." Henry Nowak's father Mark has urged for his son's death not "to be used to create further division, hatred or tension". The 18-year-old was stabbed to death in December with a ceremonial knife by Vickrum Digwa, 23. He was then handcuffed by police and bled to death. Digwa, who was given a life sentence with a minimum of 21 years for stabbing Mr Nowak with a 21cm blade, told police at the scene he had been the victim of a racist attack. Mr Farage has claimed the fatal stabbing of 18-year-old Henry Nowak and the police response that followed are evidence of what he called “two-tier Britain” and called for the public to “respond to this with pure cold rage". So far, eleven people have been arrested in connection with the flash protest where missiles and projectiles were thrown at police dressed in riot gear. An officer also narrowly avoided being hit by an e-scooter which had been thrown from a height, it was also reported. Bricks, bottles, gravel, chairs, flares, cans and parts of broken fences were also repeatedly launched. The case has been seized on by politicians including Nigel Farage and tech billionaire Elon Musk. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #shelaghfogarty #ukpolitics #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
I am enraged by it. I am mystified by it. I feel pure rage about it, right? But I'm a rational
0:08
human being. So I don't go around to somebody's street when they've asked me not to
0:12
the grieving parents' town, and they've asked you not to, and start pelting people with wheelie bins
0:19
Listen to this exchange in the House of Commons earlier in Prime Minister's Questions. Nigel
0:24
Farage, as you would have expected him to do, hit back against Sir Keir Starmer during Prime
0:29
Minister's questions this afternoon on the dreadful tragic case of Henry Novak and the
0:34
questions around the policing of it. This is that exchange in full. I have watched the
0:39
body cam footage as others will have done. I found it really hard. It was harrowing
0:47
And as a dad of a 17 year old boy, I felt sick. I can only imagine how devastated his family are
0:56
It is extremely moving. Henry's life has been stolen. His family have responded with incredible and immense dignity and bravery
1:10
Now, there clearly are lessons, Mr Speaker, that need to be learnt, serious questions that need to be addressed
1:16
Not least this question about accusations of racism, informed decision-making in such cases
1:24
Henry's father said this, we do not want his death to be used to create further division, hatred or tension
1:38
They're the words of a grieving father who's lost his son. We do not want his death to be used to create further division, hatred or tension
1:50
I think those words have resonated with people across the country. We must not allow this tragedy to be hijacked by anyone who seeks to divide us
2:06
Nigel French. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Following the horrendous circumstances of Henry Novak's death
2:16
can I urge the Prime Minister to consider this? It is now clear to growing millions in this country that we are living under two-tier policing
2:27
The instructions that are given to police officers from police bosses are clear and written down in ink
2:36
It says you must treat different ethnic groups in different ways. That, apart from the upset and the anger at the circumstances of his death
2:48
The anger that you saw spilling out in Southampton last night, and which is in danger of getting considerably worse
3:08
if the public lose trust in being treated fairly by the police
3:17
Can he take some action, end this divisive practice of two-tier policing and make sure that all British citizens are treated the same
3:32
Mr Speaker, I don't believe there's two-tier policing in this country. I'm really shocked that he pretends to have respect for Henry's family and then acts in this way
3:47
They are a grieving family. Mr Brash, please. It's a very important question
3:55
I want to hear the Prime Minister. If you want to carry on, go outside, please
3:58
Prime Minister. The grieving family have asked us not to respond in the way that the leader of reform has responded
4:06
They've asked us not to. They have lost their son in the most appalling circumstance
4:11
They make a simple plea of us as human beings to please not exploit that
4:17
That is their plea to us. We all need to reflect on those words of Henry's father
4:24
My response, and the response of others, to be fair, has been focused on the lessons to be learned
4:30
so we can deliver justice. His response has been to appeal for rage
4:39
Rage. That's his response to a father who's lost his son and ask for that not to happen
4:47
Exploiting this tragedy to create grievance and division would be wrong in any circumstances
4:52
but to do it when the family are expressly saying, please don't, is unforgivable
5:00
It shows exactly who he is. It does show exactly who he is
5:08
and I'll return to that conversation. And your choice, your choice as a citizen of this country
5:14
to choose between people who deal in rage and people who deal in reason
5:20
That's your choice. Before that, though, let's get a sense of what happened last night
5:25
at the urgings of people like Nigel Farage and Tommy Robinson. Emma Cor joins me, LBC's correspondent in Southampton
5:33
where the, quotes, justice for Henry Novak riot, heavy quotes, took place last night
5:39
Emma, take us back to the beginning of this. when it was clear that there was going to be trouble
5:46
Well, Sheila, last night, hundreds of protesters initially gathered with flags, placards, chanting, I can't breathe
5:53
Those words uttered by Henry Novak nine times as he was being handcuffed while he lay dying
6:00
But what began as a largely peaceful demonstration became increasingly volatile. Protesters descended from the centre of Southampton
6:09
Southampton to an area of Portswood where Henry was stabbed and died. And I've been watching this
6:16
huge cleanup effort here on the streets in this area. I've seen fence panels missing out of gardens
6:22
You can see where bricks were taken from garden walls and thrown at police in riot gear. Bins
6:29
tipped out here, wheelie bins also being thrown. And I've been speaking to Dylan, who lives close by
6:36
He told me what he saw. We were all in the kitchen and we heard it
6:39
So we all come out to see what the sort of situation was and there's things being thrown at police officers
6:44
and a crowd of easily sort of 300, 400 people. Yeah, they were stood up here
6:50
There's a couple of care homes along the end here and they were all stood on the roofs, throwing scooters and they tore a bit of the brick wall down
6:56
and damaged some of the cars down the road. And the community here worried about what's happened
7:01
but also worry now that it could happen again. We now know 11 police officers and a police dog
7:07
were injured here last night and that two people have been arrested in these protests
7:12
Sheila, one for assaulting a police officer, the other for possession of an offensive weapon
7:17
It was Henry Novak's father, Mark, speaking after Vikram Digwa was sentenced on Monday at Southampton Crown Court
7:24
He did not want his son death he said to be used to create further division or hatred But yesterday that unfortunately what we saw here Violent scenes unfold and real concern from people living here now that tensions are going to continue to run high
7:41
Now, I want to be clear about what I think is acceptable protest, even in this instance
7:45
If you are minded, I wouldn't be. But if you are minded to want your voice heard, even though you have nothing to do with the Novak family and the Novak family have in a very dignified and calm and rational, reasonable way had their say on the step for now on the steps of the court
8:04
If you wanted to add to that, even though they'd asked you not to in a public way, then OK, chanting I can't breathe or chanting I've been stabbed to make your point
8:15
I get that. I get it. I wouldn't do it, but I get it. I get it. If, however
8:23
you respond to the siren call of Nigel Farage and respond with pure rage and you head to Southampton
8:33
or head to the streets where people are gathering in Southampton and start violently smashing up
8:40
people's property attacking police officers that's a different order of things and i'll talk more
8:48
about that a bit later in the program three to four hundred people is a mob when they're behaving
8:53
the way those people were behaving um just looking at the footage it must have been terrifying if you
8:58
lived in one of those houses on the edges of those roads to see wheelie bins flying in the air towards
9:03
your front window or your front door or your car being walked over literally walked over top and
9:10
and bonnet um it was a riot let's call it what it was so what caused it what caused it my question
9:17
about Nigel Farage I have many questions about Nigel Farage in this case and in things like the
9:21
Southport case as well what took him so long to become this exercised by poor policing we've seen
9:31
examples of poor and let's be specific racist policing against black people and Asian people
9:38
for decades. We've seen it for decades. Didn't hear a peep out of him in those years. And now we do
9:47
And now we do from him, from Tommy Robinson, making claims about two-tier policing. Tommy
9:54
Robinson, again, shortly after the trial ended, rallying his troops and saying, let's get that
10:02
family, the Sikh family, the Digua family out of Southampton. So literally sort of old-fashioned
10:07
running people out of town stuff, you know, like a Western, like a cowboy. That's rage. That's not
10:15
reason. And Nigel Farage making these calls for the rest of us, that's what he said, the rest of
10:25
us should respond with pure, cold rage. And he even had the temerity to preface that statement
10:33
with praise for the Novak family and their decency and their, the honourable and decent
10:44
and again, I'll go back to that word, rational, reasonable way that they responded. He then urges the rest of us, you and me, the rest of us to respond with rage
10:54
Well, if it's all right with you, Nigel, I won't respond with rage. I'll stick to reason
10:59
We can all feel enraged. I feel enraged by all kinds of stories that I cover
11:03
including this one. And if I were, whether I'm a politician or not, but certainly if I was a
11:08
politician, if I was a politician of note, and Nigel Farage is a politician of note
11:12
then I would channel my rage constructively. That's what you do with rage. You channel it
11:18
constructively. Used well, it energises your politics. It galvanises people. It concentrates
11:26
the mind about change that needs to happen. That's how rage is used well. You've seen some
11:31
fantastic speeches in the House of Commons where rage is clearly and anger is clearly what's driving
11:36
the speech. But the speech is rational and not calling for people to go out on the streets with
11:41
pure cold rage. And that's your choice politically. In the next few years in this country, that's your
11:49
choice. You choose between somebody who trades in rage and somebody, whoever that other person is
11:57
who trades in reason. And do I say this thinking that everything is rosy in policing? No, clearly
12:04
it's not. Do I say this thinking that the way some police forces are tackling historic racism
12:12
is to swing the pendulum too far? It certainly might have. And that absolutely needs looking at
12:19
if we're going to see these high level repeated claims of two-tier policing, because we need to
12:23
have trust in the police but if you think Nigel Farage it doesn't know what he's doing when he
12:30
uses words like that then I can sell you I can sell you uh you know I've forgotten the expression
12:38
I can sell you something you just don't need or you already have basically it is gullible of you
12:43
to say the least he's not always wrong Nigel Farage I'm not suggesting that for a minute
12:48
and he and he and others might be right when they talk about the pendulum swinging too far the other
12:56
way in dealing with racism and if that's the case if police officers or the people training them
13:00
can't hold these three thoughts in their head at once black people matter black lives matter
13:06
white lives matter or minority lives matter white lives matter everybody every life matters if they
13:12
can't hold those three things in their head at once they shouldn't be anywhere near a police force
13:17
so if if that's what comes from this and we need to examine recruitment and training on that
13:22
particular issue great all to the good it's it's clear that something's gone wrong here it might be
13:28
about race it might not be about race but the family have made it clear that they want this
13:32
dealt with reasonably and and by the way so far apart from Nigel Farage and his pals it has been
13:38
his parents Henry's parents have sat through a trial they watched an investigation happen
13:45
they've seen the sentencing of the man who murdered their son there could well be other
13:51
charges against other family members we learned that yesterday and we'll let that take its course
13:56
in the proper legal rational reasonable way that we do rather than talk in enraged terms about
14:02
driving a family out of Southampton whatever one of their member has done the IOPC investigation
14:08
is happening and it should Keir Starmer the Prime Minister made clear yesterday that depending on
14:13
what comes out of that there may well be need for be a need for a bigger inquiry and he was
14:17
completely open to that rational reasonable giving things time looking at things with a clear eye
14:24
rational and reasonable versus rage and cynicism you decide and if you live in Southampton I would
14:32
very much like to hear from you some of the audio that we heard there in in our um in Emma's report
14:38
glass all over kids toys front windows broken in by bins flying through them
14:44
cars being trampled on i saw that on social media not on emma's report
14:48
the fear you must have felt if you lived on that street or anywhere near it
14:52
three to four hundred people a mob uh seeing police being injured with shields riot shields in front of them police dogs being injured that a riot my friend That is a riot my friend and you know why it happened And Nigel Farage and Tommy Robinson and others share some responsibility for that
15:10
So do we need more accountability when politicians, whoever they are, say this
15:14
especially when riots are taking place? We saw it after Southport, and we've seen it here after the desperate, desperate case of Henry Novak
15:23
I agree with you completely. We cannot live in a society that is ruled and dominated by cold rage
15:32
It's not what we're about. I saw a number of videos yesterday calling for people to round up on Southampton
15:42
But I must admit, I wasn't aware of the geography of where poor Henry Novak sadly passed away
15:49
but then when you start looking at this and then the violence then, which was supposedly a peaceful protest to start with
15:56
it was never going to be a peaceful protest, Sheila. No reasonable person would have expected that to be a peaceful protest
16:02
Nigel Farage and Tommy Robinson, I put them both in the same camp
16:07
are a couple of ambulance chasers. They wait for a calculated and befitting subject
16:15
for them to ride on the coattails of other people's grief. um they picked their moment it just happens to be for them that it was a Sikh man that had murdered
16:26
uh a white well almost i still put Henry Novak as a child he was 18 i've got kids slightly older
16:33
than him he was a kid when all was one all said and done i saw the Novak family with the utmost
16:40
dignity who had said they would release the body cam footage with their blessing so people could
16:46
see what happened but they asked for no division and nigel farage at no point denounced the violence
16:54
at no point called for calm before people rounded up in southampton at no point has he well i'm i'm
17:01
i am sort of glad that nigel farage has made it into the house of commons because nobody's seen
17:05
him for for months and months in there then all of a sudden lo and behold here he is yeah
17:09
yeah and the thing the thing is about the the reason i landed on rage and reason as the thing
17:17
i wanted to talk about is we are we're living in an age of rage you can see it out on the streets
17:22
you can see it on public transport you can see it everywhere you go we're living in an age of rage
17:27
and if we don't harness reason and accountability if we don't harness those things and champion them
17:35
and make them the centre of how we do politics and how we do public life
17:39
and how we do social life with other people. We are in deep, deep trouble
17:44
And I think we're already in deep, deep trouble when it comes to rage in this country
17:48
I agree with you. I absolutely agree with you. Can you imagine, and this is where you've just said
17:53
you've just made a great point about being able to do good. Even in Henry's family's darkest days
18:01
you know you mentioned it, they sat through a trial. the graphic information
18:05
that they must have heard no parent no parent ever wants to hear that
18:13
not even on jury service do you want to be involved in anything other than that I was going to say
18:18
if the Novak family had come out and said we want you to take to the streets
18:24
we want you to go out and protest we want you to do this and the other they didn't
18:29
they could have done and I don't think any person in this world
18:33
who are grieving parents and felt the anger and the suffering that they've had
18:38
would have gone, do you know what? Listen, we all feel that
18:42
It's human to feel rage. Listen, I've covered, as you know, because you probably listened to it when I did it
18:48
you know, you cover the Southport murders and the terrible injuries and trauma those girls
18:53
and the two teachers are still facing. You cover stories where a woman has been brutally murdered
18:59
Sarah Everard, you know, others. Yeah. and I come away from those days when I report on those cases
19:08
and I just, I sometimes, I feel enraged, and I sometimes think, God, why are we
19:15
what are we doing with these people, meaning the offenders? What are we doing with these people
19:18
Why don't we just, why don't we just bring back the death penalty? Why don't we shove them in the Thames with a breezeplot around the ankle
19:24
Why don't we do, and I say all kinds of enraged things to myself about it
19:28
and maybe in conversation with a pal here and there. But the point is, I know that the better way is reason
19:36
The better way is a police investigation, a trial, a sentencing. Doesn't bring Henry back, doesn't stop the family grieving, but it gives you justice
19:47
And that is the better rational way. Anyone alongside that system who's urging people to get out and express their cold, hard rage
20:00
and we know he doesn't just mean verbally, then you lose me
20:06
You lost me at that point because it is so dangerous and so divisive for our country
20:11
and it doesn't educate anyone into rationality. And we all need to be educated
20:18
and re-educated into rationality all the time. I know I do. I see things around me
20:23
and I could easily be enraged physically with somebody. Of course I could
20:28
but I don't because I'm rational and I'm joined by John Denham who some of you may remember as a former
20:34
Labour Communities Secretary. He's now Director of the Centre for English Identity and Politics
20:38
at the University of Southampton. John, good to talk to you again after all these years
20:43
Good afternoon. Hi. Look, this is a terrible situation, isn't it, that we find ourselves in
20:48
the Novak family primarily and now after what happened in Southampton where you are
20:53
last night it all shows us that there are some very nervous nerves jangling all over the country
21:03
at the moment that we need to really look at and be careful about don't we? Yes we do and can I just
21:09
start by saying somebody who works at the University of Southampton we were all as a
21:13
community shocked by Henry Novak's death in December and then the traumatic information
21:20
that's come out in the last few days. So a feeling for his family and who comes with tremendous dignity
21:27
But yes, we are a very fractured nation, a very fractured society
21:30
And what is coming through, I'm afraid, is a pretty small fraction of people
21:36
but people who are violently opposed to the idea that they might be living in a diverse society
21:41
and that it will continue to be diverse and who will seize on any issue to try to exploit that aspect of it to the maximum
21:51
So it's a very dangerous situation and a lot more needs to be done to bring people together
21:56
I've been talking this hour about the choice we have between rage and reason in all of this
22:02
And it seems to me that there is a risk, perhaps from politics especially
22:07
but there is a risk that in rejecting violence and rejecting rage
22:13
we sometimes also reject examination of something that needs to be examined
22:19
Do you think we've seen a bit of that over the years? I think that's a real risk
22:23
And I think that in many ways the easy bit is unequivocal condemnation of the people who were rioting in Southampton And let face it some much more high profile politicians who encouraged them to do that
22:36
The real risk is not to understand there's actually a much larger pool of people who are not like that
22:42
but feel they don't have a voice, they're not properly listened to in our society today
22:46
And if you like, they're pushed into a choice between being ignored and marginalised
22:52
or being represented by people from the populist right might go to those people
22:57
So the danger is absolutely that you try to deal with this just by putting a lid on it
23:02
rather than enabling a proper debate to take place. So while I don't think there is two-tier policing, I think that's a nonsense
23:09
Of course, there should be a discussion about policing and how it's done off the back of this tragedy
23:15
And, you know, it's worth zooming out momentarily, isn't it, and seeing that actually we have seen policing in action
23:25
I know that video tells us what seems to be some very incompetent policing
23:29
but we saw some good policing in terms of the investigation subsequently
23:34
the trial, the sentencing. Others may face charges. We'll see what happens there
23:39
That is the system working for those who require justice, isn't it
23:45
It is, and in many cases the system does work well. despite all the pressures on policing resources and the rest of it
23:52
And we don't notice it. We don't notice it when it works well, when it goes the way it's meant to
23:57
But, you know, that's part of the cross the police have to bear, I suppose
24:01
There always will be attention on areas where things go very, very badly wrong
24:06
What I'm worried about is that a lot of people think they now know what went wrong
24:12
long before there's been any proper investigation. So was it down to the individual officers and misjudgment
24:18
Was it to do with training? We don't know at the moment. But we need to know
24:23
We need to know, and it would be a lot better if people didn't come on lots and lots of programmes and say
24:29
well, I know what happened. It's obvious, isn't it? And that's what's making things worse at the moment
24:34
You talked about the distress and sadness in the university. For those who don't know, Henry went to Southampton Uni, didn't he
24:41
And the protests were in that city as well. What's your sense of the place at the moment, both the university and perhaps the city
24:49
I know you can't speak for everybody in the city, but the sense... No, I can't. I can't speak for the university either
24:54
I mean, universities are huge places these days. Nobody knows everybody. But there is a tangible sense of a university as a community
25:02
And so this is shocking. And this is shocking because Southampton's not the sort of place where this sort of thing happens
25:08
if I can put it like that. I mean, I lived probably the 45 years I was in Southampton within about half a mile in different properties of where I understand Henry may have been attacked
25:20
We don't have racist thugs attacking the police in Southampton. It's not how we do things
25:27
So it's deeply shocking because as somebody who loves the city, it's not what we're about
25:32
so next steps then we've got the IOPC investigation happening into the policing of that moment those
25:40
moments some of which we saw on the on the police body cam um the prime minister himself has said
25:47
that if if further inquiry is required a further inquiry is required he is open to that happening
25:53
so but again we need to wait and see what the IOPC says and do you worry that we've reached a point
26:00
because it certainly comes through in the calls, some of the calls I take on this programme
26:04
that people don't want to wait for anything now. They hear the IOPC must be allowed time to have its investigation
26:10
and they're like, oh, right, that's it, cover up, you're kicking the can down the road, as though those processes are no longer trusted
26:16
And that's a problem in our society, isn't it, in our politics particularly? It is a problem
26:21
The bit of good news is that from what I could catch for Prime Minister's question time
26:25
the vast majority of voices in the House of Commons were trying to take the heat out of the situation
26:31
It was really just, as you'd expect, Farage trying to whip it up
26:36
for his personal reasons. For example, it wasn't the topic that the Conservative leader
26:41
the opposition leader, went to knock on the course. And she and Kemia Bednaruk on this issue said
26:45
no, this is not the way to treat this issue. Now, I think that's the critical thing
26:50
I was very distressed yesterday by the number of what you would have used
26:55
to have thought of as respectable mainstream broadcasters who are basically reflecting the Reform UK characterisation of this situation
27:05
People expressing views that actually you wouldn't have heard on mainstream news coverage 20 years ago
27:11
Give me an example of the characterisations you're talking about. Well, I think views were being expressed like we have had 30 years
27:19
of policing against white people. That's not an exact quote, but that's from somebody who's on a BBC programme
27:26
A guest. A guest. Yeah, oh yes, yes, yes. But it's how you choose to prioritise these issues
27:32
Now, it's a very difficult one because broadcasters need to reflect the whole range of public opinion
27:38
But I also think it was the case that broadcasters used to be quite careful
27:42
about whether they were in flaming situations or not when issues like this come
27:47
Well, on the BBC, having been there for 25 years, you are very much required to be
27:50
And also even here, by Ofcom, you're required to be, yeah. I think that's has slipped a bit now
27:54
and you see you had the BBC as far as I could see on social media labeling a demonstration a Henry
28:00
Novak demonstration when actually that doesn't seem to be what Henry Novak's father was asking
28:07
it's clear he didn't want anything you wouldn't have done that in the past and he wouldn't have
28:11
done when you were there but on that we've had on that thing about I don't know who it was who said
28:15
it but on that 30 years of policing against white people again inflammatory language two-tier
28:21
policing, possibly over the top way of describing things. But it is important to know, isn't it
28:27
that how police forces, any police force has and is responding, has responded and is responding to
28:35
historical racism. It needs to be clear that they're doing it right and that there isn't
28:41
a swing too far in another direction. That's absolutely the right question. So I was a minister
28:46
responsible for co-chairing with Doreen Lawrence, the committee that was trying to implement the Macpherson report
28:54
And I have absolutely no doubt that Macpherson was right when he talked about institutional racism
29:00
But you've just raised the absolutely right question. In attempting to deal with racism
29:05
which actually still in pockets exists within the police, has something gone..
29:09
Hang on, more in pockets. Louise Casey, institutional racism in the Met, but go on
29:14
I think in the Charing Cross police station WhatsApps and so on last year
29:19
Of course you must ask the question, has anything gone wrong in the way that training, recruitment or whatever
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has been done that has led to mistakes being made? The worst, for those of us who champion the McPherson report
29:33
as shedding light on a serious problem, we should not be people who are afraid of light being shed
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on what's happening at the moment. We've got to be absolutely consistent
29:44
Let's hear from Richard in Hastings now. Hello, Richard. Hello, Sheila. How are you
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I'm fine, thank you. Yes. Yeah, got a couple of points, if I may. I was thinking in terms of George Floyd in America, which is sort of like a white on black, if you like
30:00
riots in America. Well, it was more than that. It was a police murder, wasn't it
30:03
Yeah, yeah. And then Starmer and Rainer taking the knee. I mean, you've got to juxtapose that
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with the hang ringing that's going on now with Starmer. All these
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things that have happened, Sheila, like Southport, this hand ringing, oh dear
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this is terrible, listen to the parents. There's only one person who's reflecting the rage
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the absolute rage in ordinary people at the moment, and that's Nigel Farage
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There's only one person who's expressing rage, and that's Farage. He's expressing rage
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I've expressed rage. I've expressed rage. Most people are feeling. Why do you doubt the fact that he has to bring that out in the open
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and say it, that the troubled people aren't saying things? Are you listening to me, Richard
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I here I am to help you here I am and I said it earlier in the program expressing rage anger
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disbelief dismay at at the way the police behaved in that video I am enraged by it I am mystified
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by it I feel pure rage about it right but I'm a rational human being so I don't go around to
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somebody's street when they've asked me not to the grieving parents town and they've asked you
31:28
not to and start pelting people with wheelie bins and destroying their property and injuring police
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officers and injuring police dogs and giving people the fright of their lives who live in the
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area that is not a normal rational response if a single member of your family responded like that
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what would you feel like that's not what i'm talking about i'm talking about the people who
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go and protest. The job of a politician is to reflect the feelings of the nation And the rage that people are feeling has been reflected by Farage All this hand by everybody
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oh, this is terrible, what about the father and everything, is just hiding the real situation in my view
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Richard, categorically, Nigel Farage is not the only politician or person in this country who has said they are enraged
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by what they saw and distressed by what they saw. how could you not be
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Yes, they have, endlessly. Have you got ears? They have, endlessly. What they didn't do in the process
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of expressing that rage was urge people to riot. Are you saying
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where did he urge people to riot? Can you tell me the part he said
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You don't think the way he worded that was... Tell me, Sheila
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Tell me. What did he say that creates... I'm giving you the quote now
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Henry's family have responded to this in just the most extraordinary, dignified way
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Right. Let me finish. This is Nigel Farage. But I suggest the rest of us respond to this with pure rage
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You know and I know who he's talking to when he says that. Nonsense
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Oh, okay. I don't agree. What do you think of the people that did that then
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Well, I think it's wrong that they did it. But the thing is, we've got to realise why they're doing it
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There's a massive problem. It's wrong, but. It's wrong, Sheila. It's totally wrong
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It's wrong, but, or it's wrong. Sorry. No, it's wrong. It's totally wrong
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But what I'm saying is this will continue whilst politicians haven't got the guts
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to say exactly what they think is happening. What do you think is happening
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What do you think is happening? I think what's happening is people are getting fed up
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Whenever there a big incident like this Southall all of this we all have these lovely weasel words and then nothing happens and then it happens again and again and again
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And basically, you know, I think we need to sort it out
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some way or another. But there are so many differences at play
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in both of these stories, Southport and this incident, this murder. So many different things at play
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You can barely compare the two. So can you be specific about what it is you think is going on
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I accept that. But every time something like this happens, people riot, don't they
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No, not every time. Well, I think when there's a massive incident
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like a horrendous thing like Southport, all this has happened with Henry, or Manchester
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because people are angry about it, OK? Manchester? What happened in Manchester
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I have to say, in a lot of cases, the people who cause this are not indigenous to this country
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Who cause what? Things like Southport and the Sikh and all this sort of stuff
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So you think ethnic minorities are more likely to commit crime or murder than white people
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No, I don't say that. I think ethnic minorities... What are you saying then? Well, I'm saying that it's very clear that the police have been told to treat ethnic minorities totally different to, if you like, white people or the people who live here
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Where were they told that? It's been an instruction to the police
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If you look at the paper today, it says exactly the words that have been written
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And not only that, Hampton Police took that on board and increased the DEI element to their officers
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And do you think that... That's wrong, isn't it? You've got to admit that. Well let me ask you this in relation to what you just said Do you think that given the clear history of racism against black people and asian people within some policing over the years a lot of policing over the
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years do you accept that that happened over the years yes yes okay so given but you don't you don't
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you know you don't fix it by over correcting no you don't and it's yeah and it's yeah yeah okay
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you don't no you don't and that's easy enough to say but we need to know that that is what is
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happening don't we before we go out rioting richard yeah i mean i'm not i'm tindering up to condone
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rioting but you did say it's it's wrong but and that's not that's not exactly total condemnation
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of it is it thank you richard for your call richard in hastings it's we were actually saying
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some of the same things about this is this is what frustrates me plenty of politicians have
36:44
expressed rage and outrage and horror at what they saw the same as you and i felt when we saw that
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video if you've looked at it plenty of us are prepared to say are prepared to accept that there
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might be a need to look at all kinds of issues in our life we've just had a massive last year in
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march it reported back didn't it the casey review into the met we know there are problems in policing
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this is not new we know there are problems in policing and if in the retraining or the training
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of police officers, we need to look again at how that's happening. Fine. That's OK. We can do that
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And bravo to the people who raised it. And if, by the way, that includes Nigel Farage in some
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previous less enraged statement, then great. Power to him. But that's not the same as
37:27
expressly defying the request of the Novak family and calling for people, urging the rest of us
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to feel pure cold rage, to respond with, not just to feel it, but to respond with pure cold rage
37:48
A response is an action. He was calling for an action
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