Do you want ice lollies, or imminent planetary doom| James O’Brien - The Whole Show

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Minutes after ten is the time. A very good morning indeed to you
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Um, I'm just so tempted then, just to rip up, I mean, we don't exactly have a running order as you've probably worked out for yourself
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if you've ever listened to this programme before, but I just, I mean, tempted just to say what's going to happen in the straight home is what is going to happen in Iran
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Problem is, we've stumbled into a situation that we've never stumbled into before
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in that we kind of have an Uber caller on this issue. We have a caller, a contributor, who is so qualified
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I think he almost intimidates and alienates everybody else. He's almost put me off having a go
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at trying to work out what's going on in the world. So, possibly, I'll decide a little later in the programme
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whether or not we will wade into that, or whether or not we will just call upon our Uber caller
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That's a nice phrase. Shall we add that to the show's vocabulary? How many Uber callers do we actually have
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Over the years, we've had more than one. Currently, we possibly only have one Uber caller
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Well, anyway, I digress. Balama in Lambeth, he's an Uber caller. Ash in Northampton is an Uber caller
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Michael in Greenwich, I think, is an Uber caller. We have a few Uber callers
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And by Uber callers, I kind of mean people who are, well, people who other programmes would phone up and book
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but who are kind enough to ring us, as it were, on the fly
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I don't think we have an Uber caller, do we, on the climate crisis question
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Somebody who is so supremely qualified that the rest of us end up feeling a curious combination of awed and grateful
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But it is to that story that we turn our attention today. So, most UK media stories about the record-breaking heatwave that struck in June, and of course it's not exactly chilly at the moment, completely failed to mention the climate crisis
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About 2,500 articles about the extreme heat appeared in the UK's nine national daily publications
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And remember, this is a memo as much to you as it is to me, that we've got to stop talking about how dead the newspaper industry is
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because they all have websites, and the websites continue to be enormous
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So nearly 2,500 articles about the extreme heat when temperatures, as you know, topped 37 degrees centigrade
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I was in Greece last week to cool down. Not the best joke, is it
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But it works. I went to Greece last week to cool down. 72% of the 2,500 articles, you can do the maths yourself
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left out any mention at all of global heating or indeed the climate
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This comes from the Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit. Meanwhile, fewer than 5% of stories mention net zero
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which is not a panacea. Net zero is not a sort of flawless answer to complicated questions
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but it does two things. It recognises the emergency, it recognises the urgency of the issue
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and it has a crack at addressing and or arresting it. So it is imperfect. It is flawed as a policy proposal
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And of course it is hard to implement or indeed justify when it's done autonomously rather than internationally
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But it does two things. It acknowledges the scale of the emergency and it at least has a crack at addressing or acknowledging the crisis
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and the other thing I was thinking of doing on the show today
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and it's quite possible Olsen in North London points out James it's probably not the best time to wade into the Strait of Hormuz
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there is our pocket literalist this morning I like that, that's very good, well done
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the other question I was going to ask you this morning is what you're doing to cope
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because I was in Greece last week and you just know when you're in a country that is engineered to cope with the heat
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Everything is different. Everything from shop opening times to the prevalence of air conditioning
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is completely different. And we are not that country. I'm fascinated by what these places are like in winter
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but I don't think I've ever visited. Countries that are, if you like, tooled to cope with extreme heat
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and what you do to become one. And I'm thinking about that as a topic for you
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as a question to put to you in all the usual ways. And I realise that perhaps I'm part of the problem
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Because if I felt myself, would it be, I don't know, is it lazier
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What's the more, what's likely to get the more into, what are you more likely to ring in and answer
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Or rather, let me be a little bit stentorian, what are you more likely to be interesting about
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If I say to you, what do we have to do to become a country that can cope with the heat
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I'm conducting a conversation that is more or less ignoring the climate crisis
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I mean, you're simultaneously acknowledging it and ignoring it, which is quite a weird thing to do
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So if we did that phone in, how do you become a country that can cope with extreme heat
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Would we be actually falling into the 72% of coverage that leaves out any mention of global heating or the climate
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when discussing the heat wave? I think perhaps we would. Would it, do you think, be okay with you
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if I could have my cake and eat it this morning? If we could actually have a crack at doing both
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So, here's the one I want you to ring in on now, okay? Why
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Why do you think 72%? And I'll take any answer you've got
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I've got my own theories, I'll share them shortly. 72% of articles, and there were 2,500 of them in a single month
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about the extreme heat that we endured, stroke enjoyed last month in June
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72% of them left out entirely any mention of global heating or the climate
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0345 6060 973 is the number that you need. people flying out of mediterranean countries with the temperature measurably lower than it is when
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they land back in the uk but i want to know why you think what's your theory very simply on why
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the coverage of the consequences ignores the cause oh that's quite nice isn't it as a phrase
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why does the coverage of the consequences completely just to extend the alliteration
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ever further. Why does the coverage of the consequences completely ignore the cause? In many ways, it
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breaks all the rules of journalism, doesn't it? Or does it? I mean, who, what, why, where, when
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Who, what, why, where, when? Why? It breaks the golden rule of
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journalism, really. We're having a conversation about the what, and we're not going
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anywhere near the why. Why does the coverage of the heatwave, why
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did the coverage of the heatwave last month completely ignore the cause
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So we can talk until we're blue in the face, or bright red in the face, about the consequences but we completely ignore the cause 0345 6060 973 Hit the numbers now you will get through And then we come to the
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I suppose the question that almost puts us in the category that's under discussion
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which is the question about what we need to do. What do you do? And I actually find this very interesting
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Am I being too meta today? I don't mean that in a self-referential way. I mean that in a sort of, am I being pretentious
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I find that first question absolutely riveting. But I'm also fascinated by why I find the next question interesting
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Because the next question is, it's twofold, what are you actually doing differently now
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How is your life changing according to the heat? The heat is extraordinary, you know
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This is now normal. This isn't like 1976 where we all look back 50 years later and go
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flipping out, do you remember when the hedge court fire at Aunty Doris's? That's just not going to happen
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And the water in the paddling pool was so hot you could have boiled an egg in it
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That kind of thing. That's now going to be normal. That's where we are now
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That's what this country is. It's now 1976, every summer. So what are you doing differently
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And is the fact, this is where I worry I'm being a bit meta, is the fact that I find that question so interesting
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part of the reason why we do the coverage without talking about the climate crisis? Because pull up a deck chair, all right
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Have a nice cold one. And have a chat with me about what you're doing differently because it's now all got so hot
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Oh, but don't mention the climate crisis, James, because that just makes everything so depressing and apocalyptic
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I want to have a chat about how many ice lollies you're getting through in a day. Do not ring me to tell me how many ice lollies
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you're getting through in a day. That was a throwaway luck. Well, yeah, no, that would be a little bit too trivial
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So I'm sitting here wanting to listen to you talking about the heat
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talking about what you are doing differently at work, at home, even, I've got to be honest with you
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I've even quite enjoyed the newspaper articles offering advice on what you do
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I've tried to set the fan up in the bedroom so that it blows out of the window a certain time
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I haven't quite, I need to go back to my notes. But doing the things that make things better
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I tell you what I've finally understood the point of. Listen, this is going to go a little bit parking tickets for 90 seconds
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Awnings. That's the word of the day on today's show, Keith. All right, make a note
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Awnings. I've finally understood the point of awnings. Do you know what an awning is
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An awning is a hat for a house. So you know when you've got a window and you go to a shop
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and there's an awning, like a sort of horizontal blind that goes out above the window
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Think of that as a baseball cap for a house. Why do you wear a baseball cap
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Well, apart from to look good in your Keith Haring limited edition
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from Uniqlo, in my case. But why do you wear a baseball cap on practical terms
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You wear a baseball cap to keep the sun out of your eyes, right? So what does an awning do
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An awning stops the sun hitting the window directly and heating up the air inside
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So I am currently, having failed completely to buy an air conditioner
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because every single one in the country seems to have been sold, I'm now looking into, for next summer
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the possibility of getting some awnings installed on the back of the house. When you go to hot countries
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you suddenly understand why they have shutters on the outside. This is physics, Keith
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They have shutters on the outside of the house so that you are stopping the air on the inside from heating up
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because if you have your shutters on the inside, then you're still having the sunlight hit the glass
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and heat up everything inside. You'll still be cooler with the shutters shut than you would if you had no shutters
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She sells seashells on the seashore. But if you've got the shutters on the outside of the house
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then you're shutting out more heat, which means the rooms stay cooler. Awnings. It's a lovely word
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Shall we all say it together? Shall we? Go on, don't do this if you're at work or, you know, currently working in air traffic control
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or something like that. Awnings. Awnings. You know that David Bowie song
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Holes, halfway through Hunky Dory? I forget which track it is. He just got someone on that track
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I think it's Bowie himself. Just goes, Holes. They start saying Holes because it's such a lovely word, Holes
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Awnings. I'm going to get some Awnings. What are you doing to that? I'm getting myself some Awnings
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It's a bit Paul Merton, isn't it? You can imagine Paul Merton saying Awnings
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What are you doing today, Paul? Getting some awnings. Oh, isn't it marvellous? I'm going to get myself some awnings
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So that's the kind of thing you might be doing. And it's already a more interesting conversation
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I'm being funny. I'm feeling quite lighthearted now. Start off contemplating a climate crisis, end up, sounding very odd, repeating the word awnings
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And that's the problem. Right there is the problem. What would you rather talk about? Awnings or imminent planetary doom
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Hmm, probably awnings, James, on reflection. Maybe it's not a mystery at all
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What do you want to talk about? Awnings and strawberry mivies? Or excess deaths that have been caused
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estimated already to be about 2,700. Oof. But we've got to do both
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You've got to do both. We can't become part of the 72%. We can't become part of the 72
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that has these conversations about the heat without actually talking about the climate crisis
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So, question number one. Why? Why is so much of the coverage of the consequences
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completely ignoring the cause? If you're feeling really clever this morning, you can have a crack at how we might do things differently
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As a country, as a society, as a population, how might we actually ride both horses
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have conversations about the consequences while constantly acknowledging, exploring, examining the cause
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And that does not always work when I give you two or three questions to mull over
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in the course of the same hour, but I'm also really, as you can tell, what's your awnings moment
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What's your awning dawning? The dawning of the awning. What's your equivalent
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So for me, my big takeaway from the current heatwave, if we're leaving aside for the moment the science
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which of course we're not, but you take my point, my big takeaway from the current heat wave is awnings awnings
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what's yours? what are you going to do differently? what are you doing differently
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how do we become a country that can cope every year with extreme heat
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how do we do that? because I'll tell you one thing for nothing and this really occurred to me while I was on my holiday
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it's Warhol holes, Warhol Andy Warhol so now I've remembered which track it was
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You probably need to listen to this introduction in its entirety to have the first idea of what's going on
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If you've just tuned in now, my apologies. But seriously, use Rewind and start again
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You look at the big picture, you are drawn to the little picture
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and somewhere between the two, our conversation today will be conducted. Because the thing I was about to tell you for nothing
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before I forgot what I was about to tell you for nothing and started talking about Andy Warhol, was that we can't do what the hot countries do because of commuting
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That's another C, isn't it? Consequences, cause, coverage, and commuting. We can't do it. We can't shut
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So you want to go to the chemist, the little village I was in in Greece. It shut between 2 and 6 I think it opens at 9 or 8 in the morning when it relatively cool But it shuts Everything shuts Even some of the hospitality places shut in a tourist town
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They're shut between 2 and 6. We can't do that here because it takes you an hour and a half to get home
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By the time you get home, all you're going to have to do is feed the cat, turn her head and come back out again
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So there's some things we can't do as a country to respond to the heat
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But I wonder what we can do. What are we going to have to do
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0-3-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3. What are you already doing? What have you done? And, um, what's your awning dawning
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What's your awning dawning? But, of course, the question you're probably not going to want to answer
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but I really, really want you to, is the big one. Why
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in the UK do 72% of articles in nine daily publications covering
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the so-called heat wave, covering the record breaking heat wave that struck last month
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why do almost all you could say of the articles reporting it entirely
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leave out mention of global heating or the climate itself. Why is that happening
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Hit the numbers now, you will get through. It's 20 past 10. James O'Brien on
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LBC. 21 minutes after 10, it has been suggested that by Declan
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having enjoyed my introduction to today's program, Declan's been in touch to suggest that
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I shouldn't wait until next year to get warnings because it sounds like I'm already suffering from
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heat stroke. I take your point, Declan, but trust me, I'm fine. Well, you know what the questions are. I'll start
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listening to some of your answers before I go off on another tangent. At least I'll try. Mike's in Marlow
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So, Mike, what would you like to say? Yeah, good morning, James. I've got, I live in a big old place
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and it was built in about 1870, and it's got thick walls everywhere
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It still gets very, very hot because it's about keeping the sun out
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rather than letting the sun in. Your house, I would imagine, is Victorian built
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and it's exactly the same as solid walls. So it's pretty boring the winter
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but you don't care because you just put another heater on. But come the summer, you realise
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that those walls aren't that great, and also the size of your windows aren't that great
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and also the insulation in your house isn't that great. This is the point, isn't it
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Almost all of our homes have been built for a climate that we no longer live in
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James, as an ex-builder, I can tell you hand on heart that we didn't really start using insulation in houses
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until the 80s. Yeah. That's shocking. So anything pre-built, sorry, built pre-80s
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is appalling. They experimented with the size of the windows, the amount of glass, the amount of..
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Just look at the amount of flat-roofed extensions out there. They're just soaking up the heat
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And then what do we do? Run out and buy an air conditioning unit with a ping-anging out the window pumping out hot air
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Yeah, and that's not very good for the environment either, although I am... Don't rain on this parade yet, because I want to cling to the hope for a moment
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But I do quite like the idea of solar-powered air conditioners. I know that they'll still pump heat outside, but they won't use energy in the same way
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but someone's going to ring me in the next hour and tell me that that's a ludicrous idea because dot, dot, dot
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It is ludicrous. No, no, I said don't do it yet. I'm going to cling on to that for at least 20 minutes, please, Michael
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Okay? Honestly, just let a boy have some fun, will you? So what are you doing
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What are you doing? Honestly, James, we're all pointing in the wrong direction. Trust me
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Well, I know that. So what are you doing right? Well, I'm not doing anything right necessarily
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other than trying to keep the sun out because, like I said
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it's a big old rambling place that is in direct sunlight all day
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and it gets hellishly hot in here. I've got fans running internally. I try and block the sun to create some shade
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Yes. But that's about all I can do, because the way this is built and the way your house is built
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and most of the housing stock, there's a lot of either very badly insulated cavities or none at all
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I mean, without getting too personal about it, my gaff's all right, actually
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My gaff's quite cool. I don't know whether it's something to do with north, south, east, west. Is it terraced
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No. It's not? No. Is it terraced or semi-detached? I mean, hang on a minute
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I don't know how much I want to give away. Well, no, it's not that. It's how much exposure you've got
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Because if you're a terrace, you've only got front and back. No, it's a detached house. It's a detached house
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Yeah, but we've got quite a lot of trees. So your house now is exposed on all four sides. But we've got, well, not really
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There's only a little gap down the sides. But it's got, we've got quite a lot of trees. So I think that the shade, I think they're like awnings, aren't they
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So the heat is not hitting the windows. When was it built, roughly
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About 1897, probably March, I think it was finished. I don't know exactly. It's all solid brickwork
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Yeah, it is. But it's cool in summer. Yeah. But what's it like in winter
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Well, I mean, I don't know how interesting this is for everybody else. But when we moved in, because we bought a wreck and we've done it up
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when we moved in, the room on the top floor, there's one room on the top floor, and that was like an icebox
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But then we insulated it really well. Now it gets really hot. So I think we've actually done some quite good work on our house by accident
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You probably have. It's not a very good example of what you're describing. Because we're quite cool in summer and we're all right
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Yeah, no, it is old. But it is old. So what you're saying is there's nothing we can do. Because air conditioners are going to make it worse
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What can we do then, apart from closing the curtains during the day? You can insulate from the inside
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You see, it's one thing doing the ceilings. Everybody thinks, well, all the heat escapes out of there
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But it also escapes out of your windows. It also escapes out of your walls. walls, but it also escapes out of your floors
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believe it or not. Very small percentage. So you can insulate the walls from the inside
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These are quite big jobs, aren't they? Oh, massive. Massive, James. And look at the housing stock
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What percentage of our housing stock has been built with insulation included? About four
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Well, any single number I'd have thought. Is that a rhetorical question
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I know. Well, it is. Yeah, it's rhetorical. Sorry, I thought we were doing a pop quiz
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But it's the one that needs answering. I know. Well, Wayne in Basildon used to do, he's a milkman now
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but he used to do insulation in walls, and it was a government scheme, wasn't it
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But it's all gone a bit wrong, I think. It didn't... Well, that's if you've got a cavity wall
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Yeah, of course it is. You haven't. You haven't. Yours is built in 18-whenever
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97. Maybe a bit earlier. We're not entirely sure. Well, there you go
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They didn't start messing around with cavity walls until about the 1920s. That's something to insulate
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But if you've got really thick brick walls, you're quite well insulated. You are reasonably, yeah, absolutely
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Yeah, that's what we've got. But then you've got massive windows. Yeah. So then you've got drafty floors
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And if it's an older house, you can't... I guarantee your house would be wooden floors, most of it, or at least the front rooms
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Why are you? Some sort of house whisperer. Yeah. Well, you know I've got wooden floors because I told the story about Nextdoor's cat getting stuck under the floorboards when we were having them put in
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Absolutely. So you're not clairvoyant, mate. I know the building style from that year. Yes, of course you do
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I'm a retired builder. Yeah, of course you do. So I know that if I'm going to work on a Victorian house, I almost guarantee you that the front rooms
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the front parlours and everything else would be timber. Yeah. And they would change as they went back
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So the further back you go, the more solid the floors get. Yeah, no, you're right
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I bet you're a good builder. No, clearly it is. I'm really enjoying this conversation
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I just need to acknowledge that we're not making an enormous amount of progress on what we can do to fix things apart from your point about insulation but in terms of identifying the scale of the problem you been absolute gold dust Thank you Well you welcome Mike because that the point isn it is that we need to recognise
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So when I ask these silly questions, not silly necessarily, so what do we need to do to become a country that can cope with the heat
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In some ways, that's the problem. You know, if you want to be a country that can cope with the heat
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you start 100 years ago. You build properties that are tailored to the climate
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that those properties are going to exist in, and we haven't. For 150 years, we've been throwing up houses
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very nice houses, but houses that are designed, A, for coal fires in quite a lot of the houses
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from the era that Mike's talking about, and that's a lot of houses, and B, for climates where it never gets this hot
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or if it does, it's just a couple of days, scorchio, everyone has a grand time
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sticks a hanky on their head, and then talks about it for the next decade. That's changed
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What are we going to do? Thank you, Mike. That was a lovely start. It's taken us up to 10.29
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so I won't squeeze Clayton in to the remaining 45 seconds or so
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because I can see from my screen that Clayton wants to have a crack at both questions. Be more Clayton, is my advice to you
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Don't just go for the nice chat about hankies on the head and strawberry mivvies
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but go for the question about why the media isn't talking about it either. 03456060973 if you want to join in
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The Express, the Financial Times did quite well. I'll just run you through the newspapers you should be reading
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if you are interested in the reality that we're experiencing. The FT scored highest on relating extreme heats to the climate
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with nearly two-thirds making the link. That's 50 out of 78. The Guardian came next with roughly half
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Unfortunately, I think the Express, no surprises, was the worst. And the Mirror wasn't great either
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More than 300 heatwave stories in the Daily Mirror, but only one in 10, so only 30 of them mentioned the climate
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Why is that happening? And what are we going to... What are we actually going to do
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I wish I could do that as a phone-in every day. Here's a topic. Here's James
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What are we going to do? What are we going to do? 03456060973
24:34
Well, we're going to go to Dominic Ellis now for the headlines. James O'Brien on LBC
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It is 33 minutes after 10, and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
24:45
where two stories are sort of not cancelling each other out exactly, but they're not really complementing each other either
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Most UK media stories about the record-breaking heatwave that struck in June completely failed to mention the climate crisis
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Why? And then, while completely failing to mention the climate crisis, I'm also asking you, as a member of the UK media
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what are we going to do? Seriously, if this is the new normal, what are we going to do
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You know Keith, who I talk about, and you're not quite sure whether he really exists or not
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he's got warnings. I didn't even know this. He's given me pictures of them
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So if it's 35 degrees outside, it would be about... If it's 30 degrees outside, it'll be about 35 degrees inside his flat, right
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So he got some awnings. Now, on average, it's going to be between 7 to 10 degrees lower
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7 to 10 degrees lower by dint of having awnings. He's got manual awnings, but he's got remote control curtains
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He calls them smart curtains. I prefer remote control curtains. He's got remote control curtains
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which means that he can open and close the curtains from work. So he can open and close the curtains according to where the sun is
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which is what you're supposed to do, but of course you can't because you're at work. But if you've got remote control curtains
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you can close the curtains when the sun is shining on the window and then open them again when things are cooling down a bit
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And he hasn't got remote control windows, but these are the answers. These are the sort of things we might need
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You can have remote control windows on your car. Why can't you have them on your house? Remote control windows, or smart windows as the kids call them
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It's all remote control. They only call it smart, so it doesn't sound like you're driving a car
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around your grandma's sitting room. Remote control curtains. That's the future. And awnings
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What about remote control? Awnings, Keith? You'd need the wiring, wouldn't you
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If you're just tuning in, it's possible I've got heat stroke. Clayton's in Saffron Walden
26:32
Clayton, what would you like to say? Good morning, James. Hello, Clayton. I had to phone in when you mentioned
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your awning-dawning moment. My dawning, the dawning of the awning. Because I've only had one recently
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Oh, yes. but I think I better quickly describe what's going on
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so we moved into an Edwardian house a couple of years ago
26:50
and the previous owners 20 years ago built an extension out the back which is a west facing garden
26:56
to let in all the light so the back of the house
27:00
is covered in glazing looks like a greenhouse and gets the sun from midday
27:04
all the way through to sunset 20 years ago that would have been an absolute winner
27:09
Exactly. But this year and last year, when it was 40 degrees
27:13
it turns the kitchen and the bottom part of the house into a furnace. Yeah
27:17
So to cope with it, I used to separate the kitchen from the rest of the house
27:21
And so when you're in the old part of the house, it's cool
27:25
And when you go into the kitchen, it's like stepping off a plane onto the tarmac in Greece
27:29
Yeah, got it. That's the difference. This weekend on Friday, we had some solar film installed
27:36
on all of the west-facing glass in the basement area, and it's an absolute game-changer
27:42
Is it? Yeah. So what does it do? Reflect the sun back off
27:46
You can still see through it? Yeah, yeah. It's ever so slightly tinted, and it reflects 80% of the heat and 99% of the UV rate
27:56
Oh, wow. Yeah. Now we leave the doors open, and it remains temporary
28:01
It's like having the... Oh, it's upstairs. All the curtains are shut where the sun is facing
28:06
But in this glazed area, there are no curtains. But it's more effective than the curtains
28:11
because it reflects it at the window, almost like having blinds on the outside. And any downsides
28:18
No, none that I know. Well, we had to pay for it. Yeah, of course you did
28:23
That's the downside. How much did it cost, roughly? I mean, like per meter, don't I
28:27
I would do a couple of k'd. Okay, all in. Yeah. Okay, but it's worth it
28:33
The two layers from Durham were brilliant. Well, they came down from Durham to do it
28:37
They were touring. They do it every week, apparently. They were saying it's his company
28:42
and they go around the country putting up solar film for people that are suffering the same as we were
28:47
Buy shares in that. You'd want to, wouldn't you? So these are window films, solar films
28:51
I'm just looking at them now, and they do, as you say, they're looking at 99% of UV rays
28:57
and you feel a difference within 10 minutes of them going up then, presumably. The moment they started going up, I mean, it was a hot day
29:03
So the following day, we had friends round, and everyone said, I can't believe you've got all this glass
29:09
and the sun's beating down us, we're not hot. That's an absolute winner
29:13
This is why we're having this phone in. Go on, then, have a crack at the other question, because you've got 10 out of 10 on the first one
29:18
Well, you've pretty much answered it, and I think it's the obvious answer
29:22
I think we've got a very high percentage of the press shilling for the right wing and the oil companies
29:30
And so they can't admit that there's climate change out there, if they'd have to admit that they're wrong
29:35
Yeah, well, yeah, I suppose so, which would explain why the FT and the Guardian
29:39
are the ones that are doing the most coverage of the actual climate crisis. And the Mirror have got questions to answer
29:44
I don't think they're doing the shilling for the fossil fuel lobby. Maybe they're just sort of patronizing
29:49
their readers a little bit. The Daily Mail, about a fifth, so, of the Daily Mail's 300 stories
29:56
mentioned global heating. So, probably, yeah, I mean, I mean, I'll give you 52% of the answer
30:02
The other 48% might be, it's hard to make it sexy. I know it sounds odd
30:08
but I'm really enjoying conversations about solar film and the benefit of Mike's experience as a builder
30:15
whereas a conversation about the climate crisis during the heatwave would just land differently
30:22
wouldn't it, regardless of who you were trying to keep in the good books of
30:27
Of course, it's uncomfortable reading because people don't... I mean, to make changes is one thing
30:36
but to a lot of people now, they're like, they can't afford to make the changes. They don't know how to make changes
30:41
that would save them money in the long run. Yeah. And the obvious solutions
30:48
which people go to, like aircon units and stuff, are not necessarily the right answer
30:52
if we don't use the correct energy. No, of course not. And you're right
30:56
I didn't want to be glib when you mentioned that it cost a couple of grand. I fully appreciate that for a lot of people listening
31:01
That moves it immediately into the territory of dreamland. Absolutely no chance of freeing up a couple of grand any time soon
31:08
But it's Vimes' boots. This is the point that Clayton makes, the classic Terry Pratchett observation about Vimes' boots
31:15
which is, if I remember it correctly, the idea is that if you haven't got much ready cash
31:20
then you will buy cheap boots. And you will need to replace your cheap boots every year
31:25
or every couple of years because they're cheap. Whereas if you have money, you will buy expensive boots
31:32
But over the course of 20 years, you will spend less money on boots than the bloke who's buying cheap boots
31:37
because you will not need to replace them at all over 20 years. It's one of my all-time favourite political insights, economic insights
31:45
Vimes' boots in Terry Pratchett's Discworld series because it's so true. So if you've got a couple of grand free, you can do this thing
31:53
If you haven't, you can't. so you might spend money on a really energy inefficient cooler
31:58
like you might be able to pick up for 100 quid or something and it won't make much difference
32:02
and it'll cost you a fortune to run but it will make enough difference for you to think that it's worth it
32:06
and already you're spending more money over the course of 20 years
32:10
than you are than Clayton in Saffron Walden is because it's a one-off payment for the solar film
32:17
I'm just going to check with Keith on something a few of you pointing out that you do know Keith exists
32:20
because you can hear him bellowing Dominic Ellis or Amelia Cox in my ear through the headphones occasionally
32:26
Have you heard of solar film? Did you look into it? Bit too tinted
32:34
It is 10.41 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
32:38
James is in Wilmslow. James, what would you like to say? Oh, hi, James. Absolutely delighted to speak to you for the first time
32:44
Welcome, welcome. I think this business of the straightforward narrative that says there's only a certain percentage
32:51
of these climate things, and that's down to a kind of right-wing agenda
32:55
Yes. I think it's really convenient, because what it allows you to do is to go
33:00
there's a culprit that's hiding the underlying reasons for us, right? Yes, yes
33:05
I think the kind of question you need to ask is, if you think about the baseline
33:11
which is how many of our other news stories don't discuss underlying causes anyway
33:18
quite a lot. And if you think precisely, so to me, one of the things
33:23
that we should all be thinking is so much of our news
33:26
is filled with stories about who's the culprit, who did it, who can we hold accountable
33:32
Absolutely nothing wrong with that. But once you start getting into root causes
33:37
and this is something I'm kind of very passionate about, you start
33:41
to get to the question of, well, you will get why and you'll get why, and it feels
33:45
like you're sort of unraveling some spaghetti and i think the question starts to become about patience now i don't know whether
33:53
this says something about how the guardian and the ft judge their readers readership but it's like
33:59
they might have the patience to go a little bit further into the whys and whys and whines but you
34:05
know this gets quite deep for people like it was a little bit of fossil fuel it's a little bit of
34:11
political choices, etc. And I think that's why people day to day end up thinking
34:17
well, where is this all going and what am I going to do about it? So, I mean, I'm fascinated by the incurious
34:24
I think an awful lot of our political problems in recent years have been caused by the incurious
34:28
people who aren't really interested in the why of things. And yet you remind us that we're probably all susceptible to that
34:34
to varying degrees. And then, of course, there's complexity fatigue, I suppose you could call it, in that you want to think about something and you want to understand something
34:45
but the more data that is put in front of you, the more your eyelids droop sometimes
34:52
Yeah, and there's quite a famous phrase in root cause ysis, which is what you call the root cause is just where you've decided to stop
35:02
Oh, I love that. Right? It's by a guy called Sidney Decker
35:06
Is that, wow. gets you into this whole question of if you really want to understand why things are happening
35:14
And we use it all the time in debate. We say things like, oh, there's a systemic problem
35:19
But I think one of the things that's tricky is, so what does practically a systemic problem look like in a way I can get my head around
35:30
And I think that's partly, we talk about causes, but like, when's it ever going to end
35:35
and I think, so there's so, I mean we could talk about this all day and you haven't got
35:39
time for that, but I think that this is, what we tend to do is settle on
35:45
a why that assuages our anxiety and gives us a satisfying round off
35:52
so that's what it is, and everyone's guilty of that, even even people who think they're on the right side
35:58
of history might say, oh it's Russian interference or it's, you know, or it's
36:02
a right wing conspiracy, I occasionally probably relay far too much responsibility at the doors of Tufton Street lobby groups
36:08
masquerading as think tanks for the country's malaise because the real answers are going to go deeper and go further than that
36:13
Give me that phrase again. The root cause is what? The root cause of something is simply where you stopped looking
36:20
by a guy called Sidney Decker. Or thinking. It's where you stopped looking
36:24
Well, I'm going to recommend another book. I don't know if you're aware of it. It's called Beyond the Five Whys by James C. Patterson
36:31
That is indeed my book. hey root cause ysis and systems thinking and if you want to if you want a good uh dinner party
36:40
discussion about why did the titanic sink icebergs lifeboats etc that's that's a chapter in my book
36:48
oh how interesting because of course where you stop looking is for most people and for history
36:54
itself the iceberg exactly the immediate cause the immediate cause wow um i wasn't joking this
37:01
This really is James C. Pat. Eleanor gave me a heads up. I'm not completely psychic. Beyond the five whys, root cause ysis and systems thinking
37:08
which probably nudges you into the territory this hour of being an Uber caller, James
37:12
Well done about that, but thank you so much for having me. Really appreciate it. Oh, well, thank you for your insights
37:17
and indeed for the further reading as well. The time now is 10.45
37:22
James O'Brien on LBC. 48 you listening to James O on LBC Do you want to know something lovely And I hope I can communicate this in a way that will charm you even if you don listen to the programme on a very regular basis or even if you tuning in today for the first time
37:36
But you heard me at the top of the show, wanging on about Ash in Northampton, who is an Uber caller
37:40
We need a better name than Uber caller, because everybody's making the same joke
37:44
saying, I'll be an Uber caller, James, I'll be with you in nine minutes. I need a better name than that
37:50
But anyway, callers whose qualifications to comment on a subject are sensational or way beyond what you might expect
37:57
The kind of people who other radio programmes ring up and ask to come on
38:01
Somehow we've managed to create a space in which on this show they're more likely to ring us and accept my invitation to come on
38:07
So I was talking about Ash, who is our resident Strait of Hormuz expert
38:11
and has provided us with, frankly, extraordinary insights and every prediction he's made has come true
38:16
and we need to catch up with him again sooner rather than later. But while we were talking to James, who turned out, of course, to be James C. Patterson
38:23
the author of Beyond the Five Whys, Root Cause ysis and Systems Thinking, Ash messaged to say, oh my God, I've got his book
38:31
So there's two little planets, or big planets, there's two planets aligning there in ways that, as the presenter of this programme
38:38
make me absolutely joyous. I just love it when that happens, a sense that, you know
38:43
I don't know, some mornings you just feel that we're all moving in the same direction
38:46
and it's lovely, isn't it? And the reference to Sydney Decker also causing delight
38:51
up in Northampton to somebody who would have, perhaps unlike me, understood every single syllable
38:56
of what James was sharing with us a moment ago. For the rest of us, the questions remain
39:01
Why does the media do so little? Spoiler alert, there won't be a simple or singular answer to that question
39:07
Why does so much of the coverage ignore the climate crisis? And second, what are we doing
39:13
What are we going to do? What can we do? Because Mike in Marlow, at the top of the show
39:17
pointed out that we live in a country that's been built to cope with a climate we no longer have
39:25
That's huge when you think about it. So all we can really do is nibble at the edges
39:30
In the case of installing insulation, I suppose, almost literally. What can we do? What are you doing
39:35
Big breakthrough from Clayton with the idea of solar film, which will be a game-changer
39:40
is already a game-changer for him down in Saffron-Waldon, but again, it's not going to be of much use to people
39:46
who haven't got the cash to afford it. And it will work in any window, won't it? So if you're in a sort of high-rise block with old metal windows, your home presumably is heating up like an oven at the moment
39:59
And that would help a lot. But it is, if you like, it's an alleviation of a symptom rather than a solution to a problem
40:09
Tom's in Woking. Tom, what would you like to say? Good morning, James. Nice to be with you again
40:14
I work for and have worked for 28 years for a major shading manufacturer here in the UK
40:21
And I also sit on the technical working group of the British Blinds and Shutters Association
40:27
What's been going on this morning has been absolutely brilliant about bringing this to everyone's attention
40:32
Because your first caller was absolutely right. We are still designing houses for an environment that existed 30 plus years ago
40:41
And it just doesn't work right now. In particular, we've got highly insulated homes
40:49
We've got glazing that is designed to retain heat in buildings, going all the way back to the oil crisis of the early 70s
40:57
Oh, is that right? Yeah, because oil crisis hit, energy, which had been cheap and plentiful
41:03
was suddenly very expensive. And so we lived in very drafty housing stock, very drafty offices
41:09
So we had to stop the heat loss. And one of the first things that was done was to change the type of glazing we were using
41:17
So we moved from single glazing to double glazing to triple glazing to glazing that's filled with inert gases
41:24
And then to glazing that had an invisible coating on one of the interior faces of the unit
41:31
And what that did was it keeps the heat in. Now, the problem is the climate we have now is not that climate
41:39
but our buildings are still designed to be airtight. And we can't knock them down and start again
41:45
We can't knock them down. So what can we do? So we need a two-pronged policy, really
41:50
We have to help the stock that we have now to cope with the climate we have now
41:56
And external shading, which will always be the most efficient form of shading
42:00
to stop heat gain because you're stopping the solar radiation before it enters the building
42:06
Yes. But it's expensive. Yes. It's quite complex to install. So sometimes, and again, question of budget, question of opportunity
42:16
internal shading is what's available, and that's where my company works. And you can have internal shading that will prevent the vast majority
42:24
of the solar radiation getting into the body of the room. What is it, physically, internal shading
42:31
So generally, for heat control, it's generally a roller blind. Oh, okay
42:36
It's generally a roller blind. We want to look for light colours
42:41
Ideally, if it can have a reflective coating on the face that faces..
42:44
On the outside, yes. Even better. But the problem is... It's dark
42:49
Well, no, no, because we use screen fabrics that have something like a 3% open weave
42:55
So if you hold your fingers meshed together and pull them apart slightly, that gives you the openness of the weave
43:01
You love your work, don't you, Tom? I do love my work. I love a man who loves his work
43:05
I lecture, if I'm doing a lecture late this lunchtime, I lecture to architects and design practices
43:09
talking exactly about this. You're an absolute natural, all day long. Yeah, so what we want to do is we want to do several things
43:16
We want to stop the heat gain or lower the heat gain in the building. We want to retain our vision of the outside world
43:22
because we want to, A, use lots of natural light coming into our buildings, which is good for us
43:28
and also prevents us using up carbon by using artificial light. but we also want to control glare as well
43:36
because we live in a screen-dominated society. Yes. You know, whether it's our phones, our laptops
43:42
our big TV screens, everywhere we go, we've got a screen. And if we have too much light coming in
43:47
we get glare, which is bad for our eyes. So it's a three-way solution we need to control
43:53
It was two a minute ago. You've gone from two prompts to three ways. I did one. That's inflation
43:56
I've done it on the shuffle. I've done it on the shuffle. But the problem with the glazing I talked about
44:00
If you imagine your solar radiation comes in through the glazing, it hits your reflective blind and bounces back
44:07
But problem, it hits the reflective glazing and the energy can't get out again
44:13
So you are setting up a little thermal layer between the blind and the glazing
44:18
So the way forward is to look at still using double and triple glazed, inert gas-filled glazing
44:25
but without the reflective coating. So if you're reflecting the sun radiation from your internal blind
44:31
it can then pass back out through the glazing. But it will get a bit colder in winter still
44:38
Well, the interesting thing is, there's been a brilliant project up at Salford University
44:42
called the eHome and the eHome2 projects. They have demonstrated that certain types of internal shading
44:49
can be up to 35% insulative. So in other words it can act as insulation in winter Oh okay This goes back to something my dear old mum taught me in the oil crisis that at night time in the winter you go upstairs you close your curtains
45:06
you tuck them above the radiator to retain your heat. And then, during the day in winter
45:13
you keep your shading open, so you harvest whatever solar radiation you can
45:17
to help heat your room. Then in the summer, it's the reverse
45:21
You do the exact opposite. This is amazing. What was the name of the council you sit on
45:26
It's the British Blinds and Shutters Association. British Blinds, BBS, BBSA. BBSA
45:32
How many people sit on the council of the British Blinds and Shutters Association
45:36
Well, it's open to the whole membership. It's open to anyone who works in shading. But our technical working group has about, what have we got
45:43
About eight or nine people. Yeah, that's good. Representing different manufacturers. We've got the brilliant Dr. Zoe DeGruza
45:48
Oh, yeah. Who is the expert in all these things. But importantly, for the listeners and for anyone who wants to learn more about how you control heat gain in your buildings, there is a website called ShadeIt.org
46:02
All one word, ShadeIt. ShadeIt.org. Oh, bless you, mate. It's a BBCSA's own website
46:07
You can go there and it tells you absolutely everything you need to know
46:12
You've been waiting your entire life for this phone-in, Tom. James, I am so passionate about this
46:17
I actually semi-retired with my company a couple of years ago, and I work 16 hours a week for them now
46:24
just talking to the trade, talking to anyone who'll listen. Because there's stuff that we can do
46:30
There's stuff that we can do. You're an evangelist. You're an evangelist. You're an evangelist
46:34
This is magnificent. All right, a tough one for you now, mate. Go on. Do you want, because we've taken a vote and you've qualified
46:41
do you want a Ray Liotta, or do you want a free advert for your company
46:45
because you can't have both? Oh. Oh, God. I'm so sorry to my company
46:50
I've listened to you for 20 years. Ray Liotta, my life is complete
46:55
That is the right answer. I'm Ray Liotta, and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
47:02
If you build it, they will come. Oh, my God. Oh, go on. What's the company called? Quickly
47:08
My company is called Silent Gliss Limited. We're a Swiss company. We manufacture in Broadstairs in Kent, and this is our business
47:14
Silent what? Silent Gliss, G-L-I-S-S. Good job I checked. And I wouldn't have done it the other way around
47:21
If you'd gone for the free advert, you wouldn't have got the Ray Liotta. But I was like, oh, I've given away the game now, so I can't do that again
47:26
Bless you, Tom, that was brilliant. And actually addressing so much of the issue that I was trying to communicate
47:32
the utility of, the usefulness of having this conversation, because there will be lots of things you can do
47:37
Kicked off rather perfectly by Clayton and Saffron Walden, but flipping heck, the Jude Bellingham role on this phone-in
47:44
has been taken by Tom in Woking when it comes to the actual practical things you can do
47:50
and the reality of it. And remember that shadeit.org website to find out more
47:55
And James, I can't remember where James was, James C. Patterson, the author, he would be the Thomas Tuchel almost in this ogy
48:01
which probably needed a little bit more work before I shared it on the radio. But there it is, glorious, glorious vindication
48:08
of the decision to conduct that conversation in two ways. It's coming up to 11 o'clock
48:14
conversation next is one to which we have turned our attention many times in the past and to which
48:19
we need to turn our attention again and it's a conversation that actually changes every time we
48:24
return to it because it shouldn't be as big an issue now as it is precisely because when we started
48:33
talking about it we thought that one of the main reasons why it was such a big problem was because
48:37
we didn't talk about it enough so why are our children still so unhealthy
48:42
James O'Brien on LBC Three minutes after 11, it's shade it, not with a T
48:49
IT on the air, not shaded, just for the avoidance of doubt. Laura made me chuckle
48:54
during the break. I feel robbed, James. My mum didn't teach me anything during the oil crisis
48:57
says Laura in Renfrew Speaking of mums and now I'm haunted by James's book, Beyond the Five
49:08
Wise Root Cause ysis and Systems Thinking and the idea of the root cause
49:12
of a problem being the point where you stopped looking. Oh, that'll do. Oh, it's all because parents are both working
49:18
Why are our children all so unhealthy? Oh, junk food. Lazy parents
49:23
It's like the opposite of tabloid thinking, isn't it? This idea that you should carry on searching for causes
49:28
because there won't be one root cause. There'll be myriad causes. Kind of, kind of, would you allow me to suggest
49:32
it's kind of what we try to do on this show as opposed to the shows or the corners of the media
49:38
where they pretend that there is one simple answer to a whole host of complicated problems
49:43
I don't know. But anyway, we turn our attention next to the fact that the United Kingdom is on track
49:50
to raise one of the unhealthiest generations of children in decades. This is a report from the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health
50:00
And it means that the UK now has some of the worst outcomes for children in Europe
50:05
In some ways, the most depressing element of this report is the fact that many of the conditions that are being recorded
50:14
are or were once largely associated with adulthood. This is an inquiry called the State of Child Health 2026
50:26
Inequalities between deprived and privileged communities are huge and the report highlights the impact that those inequalities have
50:35
upon the health of the deprived children or the children from deprived communities
50:41
Even, you know, simple things like access to medical care, but they're also looking at infant mortality, child mortality, immunizations
50:49
early childhood development, oral health, obesity, mental health, emotional health and well-being
50:53
vaping and smoking. Kids who've become addicted to their parents' vapes, asthma, substance misuse and injuries
51:00
one doctor told researchers the youngest child i have looked at was a six-year-old with severe
51:08
bronchiectasis found using their parents vape on the ward so presumably that means the parents
51:16
came in to visit their six-year-old and allowed the kid to have a puff on their vape these are
51:21
extreme examples and they're not going to be part of the um the broader answer if you like to the to
51:28
the bigger question because what we're looking at is every single major indicator in this country
51:35
obesity mental illness tooth decay and vaccine uptake now either declining or stalling
51:42
i i've got a horrible feeling this is the same question as the one we asked in the last hour
51:48
isn't it what why no it's not it's the opposite because in the last hour we were saying how come
51:54
we're never talking about the climate crisis when we're talking about the consequences
51:59
Whereas these days, we talk more than we have ever talked about children's health, about children's
52:04
mental health, about children's obesity. Maybe not that big on tooth decay. But everything else
52:11
vaccines, I've never had as many conversations about vaccines in the last few years, for obvious
52:15
reasons, as I have in the previous 20. What's going on? What is going on? I had a bit of a
52:23
thought when I was away This is always dangerous But it occurred to me that when they opened the comment sections on newspapers something and this is quite a tricky thing for a journalist to explain because it will sound a little bit pompous
52:39
but I think you're probably used to that by now. It created a marketplace for opinions that hadn't been very well thought through
52:51
The problem with this position is that some of the best paid and most famous colonists in the country are dangerous idiots
53:00
You know, I still think of old Dick Littlejohn at the Daily Mail explaining why he's never been more ashamed to be British
53:05
because Keir Starmer had declined to join Donald Trump's war in Iran, which you will be aware is still going on
53:14
I've lost count of the number of ceasefires he's announced. But the idea that someone paid for their opinions can end up being so completely boiled makes the observation that I'm making at the moment about the comment sections on newspapers a little bit tricky to sustain
53:32
If the paid columnists are as big of idiots as Richard Littlejohn, then how can I sit here saying, well, all the problems really started when we started allowing ordinary people to express their idiotic opinions with a sort of patina of plausibility on websites
53:48
But I think the central point holds. You started treating opinions that were not remotely evidence-based
53:57
or a consequence of critical thinking as an equal and opposite balance to opinions that were based on thinking
54:03
So you would think first of climate change, just to nod back to the last hour
54:08
and the way in which you would watch on the BBC even, not just on the less responsible platforms
54:13
You would watch all the scientists in the world queuing up to talk about the climate crisis
54:17
And then on the other side of the table, you would have, it used to be the late Nigel Lawson
54:24
who, as far as I'm aware, had no scientific qualifications whatsoever, but he was absolutely adamant that climate change was not real
54:33
And then, during the pandemic, and this is the thing I was thinking about on holiday
54:37
so forgive me if it falls apart, halfway through me sharing it with you. During the pandemic
54:42
what had happened to journalism happened to medicine. I'd never thought of this before
54:48
So if... And of course you saw the consequences of it happening to journalism during Brexit
54:53
And Emily points out very powerfully what she calls the Minford paradigm
54:58
So you'd have almost every economist worthy of the name queuing up to explain that leaving the European Union would be very bad for our economy
55:05
And you had a bloke called Patrick Minford insisting that it wouldn't
55:09
And every time there was a television debate or a radio debate, you'd have one person representing 99% of scientific opinion
55:17
and one person representing 1% of scientific opinion and you'd be left as a viewer or a listener thinking that that was a 50-50
55:24
or God forbid a 52-48 debate. So that's when it happened to journalism
55:30
and in a sense to science because it's most people's experience of the science comes through the journalism
55:36
But then during the pandemic it happened to medicine. It happened to medicine
55:42
in that you would have people going on Facebook or going on websites with zero qualifications
55:49
Can you have less than zero qualifications? Can you actually be... I suppose you can
55:56
If you're ambivalent about something, if you admit, I don't really know anything, if you insist that something that is false is true
56:02
then in a sense you've gone below zero. So zero qualifications to comment on something
56:07
would involve admitting that you know... Don't listen to me, I don't know anything
56:12
But then you've got someone over there going, oh, no, you must listen to me. I know that vaccines contain microchips
56:19
that are designed to population control. And you think I'm joking. At least I hope you think I'm joking
56:25
because that would mean you haven't been exposed to these people in the wild. But the internet during the pandemic was absolutely groaning
56:32
under the weight of people who were convinced that the vaccines that we were finally able to access
56:39
were all part of some global conspiracy to control the population, that 5G phone masks were spreading the virus
56:46
So it happened to medicine during the pandemic. The idea that authority no longer mattered
56:55
And part of the problem for this lies with authority. For not having fought its corner better
57:00
or for having made avoidable mistakes, or for having missed the scale of the emergency that it was facing
57:12
An appeal to authority. That's a phrase, that, isn't it? It probably comes from Latin originally
57:17
You appeal to authority. If you're having an argument about something, you appeal to authority
57:23
And the qualifications for authority, not unlike the qualifications for a Ray Liotta
57:28
involve demonstrable mastery of your subject. and that's all gone in our society i sometimes fear that's all gone you know you've got alleged
57:40
rapists who are holed up somewhere in rumania taking to social media to talk about a crime
57:46
that's been committed in southport and nigel farridge jumping up and down saying that we've
57:50
got to pay attention to the alleged rapist and ignore the police that the authority has been
57:55
broken online and now it's seeped into reality as well. There's no such thing as authority. You
58:01
can't trust authority. You can't trust judges. You can't trust the police. You can't trust
58:07
professors. You can't trust experts. The appeal to authority has been broken, partly because of the
58:14
internet and partly because of deeply, deeply dangerous and irresponsible public figures
58:18
Some of them are columnists. Some of them are politicians. Some of them are quite possibly both
58:22
and I don't know why I found myself thinking about that this morning
58:27
when I, with a heavy heart, turned to the story about the UK
58:32
currently raising one of the unhealthiest generations of children in decades, but I did
58:38
because who are these parents supposed to trust? Jamie Oliver takes quite a lot of abuse
58:50
from media institutions for the crime of caring more about some children's health
58:58
than their own parents can. Why? Why? Who are these parents supposed to trust
59:07
I mean, how much of the blame lies with the parents? All of it, probably
59:13
But blame is such a weird word. I remember, I am absolutely haunted now
59:17
by that phrase that James shared with us in the last hour about the root cause just being the point
59:21
at which you stopped looking. But I've always had this image in my head
59:25
I've even written about it, of a young mum who is not very well educated
59:31
but loves the bones of her baby, wheeling her pushchair from the bus stop home
59:37
and going past, what, 20 billboards, 10 billboards, all extolling the wonderfulness of fizzy drinks
59:45
or crisps or chocolate bars or whatever it may be. burgers, all of that
59:51
There's nothing wrong with advertising. I'd be an absolute hypocrite if I argued that there was
59:56
But scale, economies of scale. Wheeling home, her baby going past billboard after billboard after billboard, extolling
1:00:07
the wonderfulness of cheesy burgers and crispy fries and delicious deep-fried snacks and sugar-loaded
1:00:16
corn syrup-laden fizzy drinks and delicious sweets and fruity treats and all the things
1:00:23
that used to be enjoyed in moderation by children. Who had Friday sweets
1:00:28
Did you have Friday sweets as a kid? Tempe. I'm quite old. I'm older than I look
1:00:33
Tempe, down to the corner shop, spend it on sweets, and you'd have a little selection
1:00:37
You remember? You'd get one of those, I'd have a fried egg. Four mojos you could get when I was little for a penny, not two
1:00:43
That's inflation. Friday sweets. I don't know if that's the right way to do it
1:00:47
or the wrong way to do it, or a healthy way to do it, but you couldn't buy a bag of crisps. The first time I went to the United States of America
1:00:54
I kind of had an almost religious experience. regarding the size of the crisp packets
1:01:01
I wanted a packet of crisps. You know, like a lunchbox-sized packet of crisps
1:01:06
a packet of Walker's crisps, or Golden Wonders, a normal-sized packet of crisps
1:01:10
Couldn't find one for love or money. Walker, wandering up and down the supermarket aisles
1:01:15
thinking, well, there must be... Because all the bags are enormous, so there must be an enormous bag of little bags
1:01:20
Can I just buy... Excuse me, I'd like to buy some crisps, please. Sorry, what, sir
1:01:25
Sorry, chips. I'd like to buy some potato chips. Could you direct me to some potato chips
1:01:31
Yeah, it's aisle three, four, five, six, seven, eight and nine. Yeah, I just want a little bag of potato chips
1:01:36
I just want a small one-person portion bag. Might as well have been talking Chinese
1:01:42
Something there. Had another moment at Bangkok Airport of all places. I told you about this
1:01:48
The first time I've ever encountered a Dairy Queen, which is a kind of ice cream milkshake franchise
1:01:54
often to be found alongside Burger King. You see what they did there. And I was on quite strong medication
1:02:00
because I had an ear infection after swimming. So I was a bit, I think the correct word that the kids use is trippy
1:02:06
I was a little bit trippy. And I'm standing at this franchise in Bangkok Airport
1:02:11
looking at the pricing and thinking, how can a litre be... If a small cup is like five baht
1:02:23
how can a litre of it only be ten baht? I'm making up the numbers
1:02:28
right but i'm thinking so a small cup is is a fraction of a litre and that's five bar
1:02:34
how can a whole litre a litre tub who can eat a litre of ice cream in one sitting
1:02:39
well all of us actually but um you take my point who should be eating a litre of ice cream in one
1:02:45
sitting spoiler alert none of us so i'm looking and again i had this moment of just thinking god
1:02:51
we're absolutely screwed aren't we because i'm looking at that thing oh i'll get a litre look at
1:02:56
out. What a bargain! 5 baht for 25ml or whatever it is, what would it be? 75ml? I don't know
1:03:02
5 baht for 100ml. 10 baht for 1,000ml! That's such a bargain! I'll have a litre, please
1:03:08
of ice cream. Oh, I'll have some sprinkles as well and some add-ons. Can I have some peanuts? I think I'm getting a bargain. But of course, what I realised was it must be
1:03:18
so cheap to make that they're making a profit. By the time they've paid for the cup and the
1:03:24
spoon and the rent on the thing, the actual stuff coming out of the nozzle is negligible
1:03:31
They can practically give it away. They can give you a litre of it for twice the price
1:03:37
of what they'll give you for a hundred, what you'll pay for a hundred mils. So there's so
1:03:44
many answers to this question. I just want you to tell me what yours are. And what I
1:03:49
want to do, I think the way to do this, the way to find focus
1:03:53
during conversations like this, is to look at the UK, because this is supposed to be now
1:04:00
the most globalised the planet has ever been. You should really not be finding massive disparities
1:04:09
between populations. I can see why you'd have massive disparities according to privilege and deprivation
1:04:15
but why would you still have massive depravities? Depravities. Why would you have Freud
1:04:19
slip. Why would you still have massive disparities according to geography? Why would this country be doing
1:04:25
so badly on these measures? Do you want to make comparisons with other countries? I have found that so helpful
1:04:33
in the past. I've got this kind of iconography in my mind
1:04:37
of contributions to the programme that have really helped me understand things better. I remember when we were sent by a mum
1:04:43
whose child is at school in France, and we were just sent the weekly
1:04:47
menu of what they were going to get for their lunch at a school in France. And it was, I
1:04:52
mean, it was extraordinarily different to what you would get in most schools in this
1:04:56
country, probably not the private schools, but in the state sector, the idea of multiple
1:05:00
courses, always having a fruit and a option and all of that. So that's part of the reason
1:05:07
That's part of the reason. My tummy is rumbling, as a few of you have pointed out, because I'm
1:05:12
talking about food. I'll have some of my overnight oats during the next hiatus, during the next
1:05:17
hydration break but what what i want you to tell me next is the specifics to the united kingdom
1:05:24
the specifics to the united kingdom why are our children so unhealthy why are the measures
1:05:33
regarding obesity mental illness tooth decay and vaccine uptake so much lower than comparable
1:05:41
countries, in the same hemisphere, in the same economic orbit, in the same universe? Why
1:05:46
is the United Kingdom suffering on these fronts? 0345 6060 973
1:05:56
is the number you need. So, I know what all the answers can be. If you
1:06:01
stop looking for root causes, then your root cause will become the point at which
1:06:05
you stop looking. But vaccines, why would we be doing worse on vaccine
1:06:09
uptake? Why would we be doing worse on vaping? Why would we be doing worse on obesity, mental
1:06:14
illness, tooth decay? What is it about this country right now that you think explains
1:06:21
our performance, our incredibly poor, our shameful performance? And what can we do about
1:06:31
it? Because I'll tell you something for nothing. To take James's point about the root cause
1:06:35
being the point at which you stop looking. The idea that this is all about lazy parents
1:06:40
or even that it's all about lobby groups and so-called think tanks shilling for the big sugar
1:06:46
and the big junk food companies, it's going to be so much more nuanced and complicated than that
1:06:51
But what is quite straightforward is the nation-specific question. What is it about this country that explains these figures
1:07:02
What is it about the United Kingdom right now that means infant mortality, child mortality, immunizations, early childhood
1:07:11
development, oral health, obesity, mental health, emotional health and well-being, vaping and smoking, asthma and substance misuse and injuries, see us perform worse on most
1:07:23
if not all of those fronts compared to countries with which we have an awful lot in common And I tell you whatever you got on this no one going to have the comprehensive definitive answer but let just make a list It got to be peculiar to the UK
1:07:36
which means it may help for you to make comparisons with other countries as well
1:07:42
But you don't have to. What is it about this country that explains these numbers
1:07:48
It's 11.22. James O'Brien on LBC. Four minutes after 11. Sorry, I went off on a bit of a tangent in the first hour about the introduction there
1:07:58
the death of authority. I think it's crucial to what we're talking about
1:08:02
but it's not necessarily going to be the best way into this conversation
1:08:06
What I want you to do is tell me what hits you about the United Kingdom
1:08:12
So you come here having spent some time abroad, or you come here to live for the first time, having lived somewhere else
1:08:19
or you have lived overseas for a long time and you come back to Britain. and on the specific territory of children's health
1:08:28
what hit you first? What hit you hardest? You literally went, oh my goodness, I can't believe they do that
1:08:35
I'll give you an example. Motorway service stations. If you visit a motorway service station in France
1:08:41
then your options for food are unrecognisable compared to the options that you'll find here
1:08:47
Particularly if you confine yourself to the petrol station bit without going into the food hall
1:08:52
I was going through one of my sporadic health tips a few years ago
1:08:56
and I really wanted to buy an apple. I wanted to buy one apple. I didn't want to go into the food hall area
1:09:03
I just wanted to get some petrol and some water and a snack
1:09:07
And the snack that I thought that I wanted was an apple. So I went in and I could not find an apple
1:09:12
Don't message me to tell me that you bought an apple in a petrol station yesterday. The point is, I'm telling you the truth, I couldn't find one
1:09:17
You go to a place in France, if you go into the food hall
1:09:21
then you're going to have actual home-cooked food, so to speak, in front of you
1:09:25
You're not going to be loading up on e-numbers and salt and processed food and all the rest of it
1:09:30
And you can swim to France. That's how near it is. So something about this country, I don't know why that is true
1:09:39
I don't know why that is a thing. Why, when I am in France, I can buy healthy food at the roadside
1:09:45
and when I am in the United Kingdom, I can't. But that's the kind of thing I mean
1:09:49
So you can provide me either with the explanation as to why it has happened
1:09:54
034560973, or you can give me your roadside food equivalent. You can give me the thing that may..
1:10:02
I mean, teeth. How can our children's teeth be worse now than they were when I was a kid
1:10:08
Answer, government policy in part. Also, parents not taking people to the dentist
1:10:12
Also, parents who want to go to the dentist not being able to find a dentist. Just because you know it
1:10:17
don't think that other people listening don't it's about putting together a long list
1:10:21
a proper tapestry of what we're doing wrong in this country to explain
1:10:28
why we are currently on track to raise one of the unhealthiest generations
1:10:32
of children in decades so it's compared to the past and it's compared to
1:10:38
other countries Mina is in Newin, Mina what would you like to say
1:10:42
Hi James, how are you? Very well thanks, what have you got? Well, we have a three-year-old
1:10:49
So ever since we gave birth to him, I think I'm being really, really conscious
1:10:53
of what's available out there in the supermarket, what we cook at home
1:10:57
and what we eat when we go out. Yeah. So I'm actually from Hong Kong
1:11:03
so I grew up in Hong Kong, I grew up in the UK. So growing up
1:11:08
it will always be fresh food and vegetables served on the table
1:11:12
shared by the family. Whereas here, I noticed quite a lot of my friends or family
1:11:19
they would just cook whatever easy, you know, put in a microwave, put in the air fryer
1:11:25
put in the oven and then serve the kids first. But for us, it's really important to have a meal every night
1:11:31
with our little one, even, you know, ever since he was six months old when he was weeding
1:11:36
You know, what he eats and what we eat. So obviously now he's almost three
1:11:41
Yeah, sorry. No, don't worry. You're doing brilliantly. I'm just thinking that when I was his age, that that was normal here
1:11:49
You know, you would almost always eat together as a family, at least once a day
1:11:54
And you would almost always have fresh food. And the things that have changed, because you've touched on it
1:12:00
with microwaves and air fryers and the rest of it, the things that have changed are technological
1:12:06
And they've changed everywhere. So why in Hong Kong did people resist the temptation of sticking stuff in a microwave
1:12:13
or parking their children in front of a ready meal, whereas in this country, we didn't resist it
1:12:18
That's the mystery, isn't it, Mina? Yeah, I think because I think it's the culture
1:12:23
that the parents or the grandparents go to the wet market every day and get something fresh from the market every day
1:12:29
So they go shopping every day. Whereas here, I mean, you probably go once a week
1:12:33
I mean, I go once a week, but I tend to buy all the vegetables and meat
1:12:38
and then plan my week meals. You know, don't get me wrong
1:12:43
I've got frozen stuff as well, you know, it's just probably for me more than for my child
1:12:48
But, you know, and also I see like restaurants as well. I think parents are not just to blame
1:12:54
Like some are busy, some are probably lazy, and they're probably not too inspired
1:13:00
If the kids refuse to eat, they probably just, okay, well, I'll just eat whatever they would eat into an oven
1:13:06
So then just to kind of feed them. None of this gives us the specifics of the UK
1:13:11
because all of these, I mean, these are human conditions, a little bit of laziness, a little bit of, you know
1:13:18
acquiescence in the face of objection. These shouldn't be peculiar to the UK, but they are
1:13:24
I wonder if the thing you've said about shops, I mean, Hong Kong is an incredibly populated island, isn't it
1:13:30
So you don't need to drive for two miles to go to a big out-of-town shop
1:13:35
and do all of your shopping in one visit. that you presumably are going to go to three or four shops to get your food
1:13:42
You get your fish here and you get your vegetables there and you move around more, you walk more
1:13:47
So I don't know whether or not there's something in the death of the high street and the rise of the out-of-town shopping centre
1:13:53
Because I'm not just looking at the difference between Gloucestershire and Hong Kong, I'm looking at the difference between being three in 2026, like your son
1:14:00
and being three in 1975, like me. And that would be one big change, would be the nature of shopping itself
1:14:06
Yeah. I think it's also the food that's available even in restaurants and pups
1:14:13
I mean, we don't actually eat in pups that much because I refuse to pay
1:14:19
Like, I mean, it's getting really expensive now. So I refuse to pay for things that I can actually make at home easily
1:14:24
and, you know, a healthier version as well. You know, if you look at a kids meal
1:14:30
probably 95% of the restaurants here are chicken nuggets and chips. I knew you were going to say nuggets. Pizza
1:14:36
I knew you were going to say nuggets. Yeah, well, I mean, it's on every menu
1:14:41
There's no skill involved whatsoever in heating up some nuggets, and you're going to pay four times what you'd pay to have them at home
1:14:46
What would a meal out in Hong Kong involve? It could be some soup noodles
1:14:53
Mostly when we feed our kids in Hong Kong we would probably go to a restaurant where it like family style again So you get a combination of you know some could be stir noodles mixed with vegetables and some meat
1:15:05
It could be soup noodles with also like a clear broth. See, this sounds oddly. I know that the menu itself would be different
1:15:12
but you're sounding quite Southern European now as well as Asian. Because that idea of a different dishes on the table, people making an event of things
1:15:20
it being, we kind of don't do that except possibly at Sunday lunch in this
1:15:25
country. Yeah, but Sunday lunch you still kind of serve it to your own plate
1:15:29
as well. I mean, yeah, I guess. Yeah, that's true. I mean
1:15:33
yeah, we eat like, you know, steamed fish and I guess like you said, in Europe, in
1:15:39
Greece, in, you know, Spain, they all do that as well. So, I mean, I don't know. I think it's the culture
1:15:45
I wonder if rationing has, if we go back to root causes or we start
1:15:49
digging further, whether rationing has some, there's a legacy of rationing. Mina, that was brilliant
1:15:52
Thank you. I hope you call me again. 11.32 is the time. On a completely different
1:15:56
note, big news. Absolutely huge. World exclusive coming up after the news
1:16:02
You'll be aware that the World Cup is going on. I have a football exclusive
1:16:08
for you after this. It's visual, so I don't know what we've done. Have we arranged
1:16:12
Will people be able to watch it live, or will they have to watch it back later? Okay
1:16:17
This isn't the most radio friendly exclusive that you're ever going to experience in your lives, but it
1:16:23
is, when it goes up later on YouTube and elsewhere, it is going to blow your mind. Not only is it
1:16:29
a football exclusive, a world football exclusive on the James O'Brien programme on LBC
1:16:33
but also it has a very tangential link to Jude Bellingham. How about that? A tangential link
1:16:39
to Jude Bellingham and a world exclusive football related story coming up on LBC
1:16:44
with me after the very latest headlines with Dominic Ellis. James O'Brien on LBC
1:16:50
It's 11.35 and the world-exclusive football-related story with a tangential link to Jude Bellingham
1:16:56
is now live on LBC but unless you can see me, which you can't
1:17:00
you won't know what it is Would you like to take a guess? Go on, text me on 84850 or WhatsApp 03456060973
1:17:07
See if you can guess what the world-exclusive football story with a tangential link to Jude Bellingham
1:17:13
that is currently unfolding live on your radio but you don't know that for certain because you can't see me
1:17:18
have a guess at what that story is. And it is genuinely a world exclusive
1:17:22
and it does genuinely have a tangential link to Jude Bellingham and it is genuinely about football
1:17:27
See if you can knit that together and come up with an answer. And I will, before 11.45
1:17:34
I will do the big reveal. And then I will post it online visibly
1:17:39
visually, so that you can actually see the world exclusive from football
1:17:44
with a tangential link to Jude Bellingham that is now breaking live, breaking news, capital letters, breaking, breaking, colon, on LBC
1:17:52
But before that, back to the arguably slightly more interesting topic of why the United Kingdom performs so badly on children's health
1:18:00
on all measures as well, pretty much. What is it about this era and this country that explains this tragedy
1:18:08
Angus is in Milan. Angus, what would you like to say? Oh, good morning, James
1:18:12
Thank you for taking my call on a really fascinating topic. Food is at the heart of it, obviously
1:18:18
Everybody knows about the Italian diet, the Mediterranean diet, and that's a big thing
1:18:23
I think when I come back to the UK, what shocks me is what people are shoveling into their kids
1:18:27
You sit on a train and you see some poor kids having a packet of crisps and a Mars bar
1:18:32
and a frizzy drink laid out. You don't see that in Italy? Not really
1:18:38
Really? I believe you. I mean, just because chocolate is available doesn't mean that
1:18:41
It's not the go-to snack. Every station is forcing it upon you
1:18:46
Every transport hub is just essentially telling you to buy a bag of hydrogenated fat and a box of sugar
1:18:54
It's here and it's available, but it's not the first choice that people go to
1:18:58
I'd love to just hark back to the previous caller who mentioned Sunday lunch
1:19:02
Now, Sunday lunch is a ritual that everybody loves. And what is different about Sunday lunch is everybody
1:19:08
you make an effort. You go out together, maybe as a family, you choose the piece of meat, the veggies you like
1:19:12
and it's really important. For Italians, every meal is important and it's a really deeply rooted thing
1:19:21
Where does that come from? Good choice. That's a good question. Well, we always like that
1:19:26
because you think about the old meat and two veg trope when I was young
1:19:31
I mean, maybe our food just wasn't very nice. Could that be part of it
1:19:38
I share that memory and I also know a lot of Italians who were traumatised as kids coming over to the UK
1:19:44
and being subjected to sort of school dinner type food. And why was that? Because we've got a good farming community
1:19:51
we've got plenty of agrarian land, you know, why would we... I know that you're going to get nicer tomatoes in Italy
1:19:58
but you're not going to get nicer potatoes. Why would we not have been able to turn what we had into more pleasant fare
1:20:06
It's a weird conundrum, and actually, if you think about it, We've always had a great... I'm a huge fan of Jamie Oliver and everything that he's done to try to improve
1:20:14
especially in schools. But if you go back in time, the Brits have always been fascinated by TV chefs
1:20:20
But why haven't they adopted those habits and taken that as a way forward
1:20:27
in the kitchen at home? You don't want to say laziness, but the supermarkets offer good stuff
1:20:35
Yeah, so, I mean, we're at a bit of a loss, really. I mean, there are things that are different
1:20:41
but we're haunted by James Patterson now. The root cause is where you stop looking
1:20:46
So, did we have... I mean, Henry VIII ate that very well
1:20:52
I'm just thinking about whether the post-war period, when we started, after rationing
1:20:57
and we're both too young to remember this era, but after rationing, it would be a sign of wealth
1:21:04
to be able to buy shop-bought stuff. Yeah. Rather than baking your own cake, you'd get a cake from the bakers
1:21:13
or if you were getting shop-bought, it was middle class, and the working class was still cooking their own food
1:21:19
I don't know, I'm thinking out loud. So, and that's a consequence of rationing that is peculiar to this country
1:21:25
and therefore there's a hangover of thinking that what has become processed food
1:21:32
which used to be shop-bought food, which wasn't necessarily unhealthy, but was a mark of having a few quid, a few shillings
1:21:39
you then, that moves to the current era and we still think that there's something desirable
1:21:47
about buying rather than making, buying rather than cooking. And you would never get that in Italy
1:21:52
In Italy it would be, and in Greece and all over Southern Europe and in France it would be the exact opposite
1:21:58
There's a lot of pride actually in all of the countries you just mentioned in being a good cook
1:22:03
men talk about cooking, men talk about going to buy the right cut of meat or the right piece of
1:22:08
cheese. So there's a lot of pride that goes into it as well. It's not just slap the easiest thing
1:22:12
on the plate for the kids and then off to the pub. That isn't the way it works here
1:22:16
So there's a bit of, I mean, low-level misogyny as well, isn't that a woman's place is in the
1:22:22
kitchen and therefore the conversation is not conducted in as full and frank a way as it would be And so that the thing that hits you first You come here and the thing you see is the children just eating what would have been a once special when we were children
1:22:37
and yet is now almost a daily occurrence. And that's not an accident that that's happened
1:22:41
the way that it is foisted upon us is absolutely by design
1:22:45
rather than by accident. Do you want to have a guess at what my world-exclusive football story
1:22:49
with a tangential link to Jude Bellingham is? Oh, gosh, I was thinking about that before I lost my..
1:22:54
I can't do it. You've got nothing. And I can't... No, that's all right
1:23:01
I mean, a couple of people have actually guessed correctly. Richard has guessed correctly
1:23:07
Welcome, whatever it is, and go England tomorrow night. There we go. Yeah, well played
1:23:11
Let's sort it out. Absolutely. I mean, don't get me wrong, the World Cup is exciting, but this is a world-exclusive football story
1:23:16
with a tangential link to Jude Bellingham. It doesn't get much more exciting than that, mate. I can't wait. I can't wait
1:23:21
Well, any minute now, Angus, any minute now. asthma is thank you angus arrivederci that's not what you say is it in italy that means hello i
1:23:29
think uh asthma is in barking side asthma what would you like to say oh hi james thanks for having
1:23:34
me on um there's um i think there's so many factors some of them which we've touched on before like
1:23:40
you know a skill shortage and cooking um our climate i think it lends to like meat and
1:23:46
veg and stodgy food and so on but one of the things that's specific to what's different now
1:23:51
to when we were at school, for example, and it's like a big bugbear of mine
1:23:56
I can't believe more people are not enraged, is when kids get to second year school now
1:24:00
it's not like in our day where, you know, you had to choose something for a main meal
1:24:07
and then you could have pudding if you wanted and there was some veg on the side. They have like a free access to canteen type food
1:24:13
and there are no limitations. So they can have like a slice of pizza at break time
1:24:18
at a burrito and a burger and a waffle and a muffin
1:24:22
And my son's just finished secondary school and we've had so many wads because they use this fingerprint system
1:24:30
and he's just spent £20 in three days on just not even a proper meal
1:24:35
And there's not a lot you can do about that. Unless I chop the finger off or not
1:24:40
Well, you'd just use a different finger, wouldn't you? They're clever these days, these kids. Yeah, so I think, I mean, when you're a new parent
1:24:47
You do all the reading, you do all the research, and you're pureeing food
1:24:52
And even when they're in primary school, I'm a fan of Jamie Oliver as well. The food is small portions but nutritious
1:24:59
and there's a limitation. And then it feels like everything gets undone in school
1:25:04
And I'm South Asian of descent. I grew up with food and cooking
1:25:08
and I make most of the stuff from scratch. But he just filled himself up on three burgers
1:25:14
And then he goes on. I know it's a long way off yet. I don't want to spook you, but then he goes on to raise a family
1:25:20
and the messages he's carrying are mixed. He's carrying one message from home
1:25:24
but a very different message from school, where he will be eating the majority of his meals during his teenage years
1:25:29
And that's got to be part of it. And yet when Jamie Oliver tried to address this
1:25:34
he got fairly badly pilloried by some corners of the media. I always remember the mothers at the school fence
1:25:41
pushing junk food through the chain-link fences because Jamie had taken turkey Twizzlers off the menu
1:25:47
Asma, thank you. That's definitely part of it. Would you like to have a guess at what my football
1:25:51
my world football exclusive story with a tangential link to Jude Bellingham is? I mean, I can't figure out if it's looking good or bad
1:25:57
It's good. It's really exciting. It's really, it's really exciting. Is he fit to play
1:26:03
No, it's only very tangential, the link to Jude Bellingham. It's not, it's not, it's not really about Jude Bellingham at all
1:26:08
It's a very tangential link to Jude Bellingham, but it is a world exclusive football story
1:26:13
I can't, I'll wait to find out. Whatever it is, that's the correct answer. 11.45 is the time
1:26:18
Has Jude Bellingham bought the Mystery Hour board game? Asks Joel, to which the answer is probably
1:26:23
but that's not the story. That's not the world exclusive. Hakim suggests that his brother is with you in the studio
1:26:28
You refer to Job, who I think is playing in Germany now, isn't he? Borussia Dortmund? Don't sue me if I've got that wrong
1:26:34
No, it's not that. Oh, says Sasha, I thought Jude Bellingham was going to be on the show
1:26:40
Yeah, that wouldn't be tangential, would it, Sasha? Do I need to be a dictionary as well as your favourite radio presenter
1:26:46
a tangential link to Jude Bellingham means very, very vague. Very vague association with
1:26:52
Jude Bellingham. Mark asks, is he taking a soak in your huge mug
1:26:57
And Charlotte says, have you got his shirt on? Rebecca suggests I might have got a tattoo of the entire England
1:27:02
squad, which again, wouldn't be very tangential and wouldn't be very likely either
1:27:07
Peter's got it right and Richard's got it right. Shall I do it now or shall I do it
1:27:12
I'll do it now because I want to, well, You'll work out why I'm going to do it now. Here is a world-exclusive football story
1:27:19
live on LBC with a tangential link to Jude Bellingham. I'm standing up now for the benefit of the camera
1:27:24
Here is Kidderminster Harrier's new strip for the new season in the National League
1:27:36
Come on, you Reds. James O'Brien on LBC. 12 is the time and like the night following the day it's reported today that Nigel Farage was once
1:27:47
again being somewhat economical with the truth when he claimed that his security detail had been
1:27:53
removed by the government he in fact the i-newspaper reports today turned down state-funded
1:27:59
security which would have included a bodyguard a car and a trained driver the same offer by the way
1:28:05
that the leader of the Conservatives and several high-profile Cabinet ministers enjoyed
1:28:10
because he didn't think it was adequate enough. And any politician, including some that I have spoken to
1:28:18
will tell you how rigorous these threat assessments are. Tom Tugendhat talking in the news at half past
1:28:26
Quite poignant, really, because obviously after the suspected murder of Anne Whittacombe
1:28:31
an awful lot of focus is going to be put on the safety and the protection of politicians
1:28:36
And hopefully some focus will be put upon the importance of not speculating or trying to make political capital
1:28:42
out of these tragedies while the police are trying to do their jobs
1:28:45
But you can't provide that level of security for all of them. It's the old Jubilee Line paradigm, you know
1:28:52
like the cost, the ratio, the cost-benefit ratio, in that you spend money on encasing the platform
1:29:01
at Westminster Station, because then no one can die under a train at Westminster Station
1:29:06
But you can't do that at all the stations without spending a huge amount of money
1:29:11
and they choose not to, which means they know that some people are going to die in those circumstances
1:29:18
That is exactly what a cost-benefit ratio is. But I thought you'd want to know that when Nigel Farage claims
1:29:23
that he has had his security removed, the truth of the matter is that he didn't feel that the offer made to him
1:29:30
and to Kemi Badenoch and to several high-profile cabinet ministers was commensurate with his self-image
1:29:36
as opposed to with the security assessments undertaken by the professionals. I think Jess Phillips covered this rather well
1:29:43
when I was on my holidays last week. You can find that show on the Global Player
1:29:52
The question of why you wouldn't want state-funded security is perhaps one that only he could answer
1:29:58
Back to the question of why this... country is raising a generation of almost uniquely unhealthy children. What is it about this country
1:30:04
and this era that explains the tragedy? Louise is in Luton. Louise, what would you like to say
1:30:10
Hey, good morning. Thank you for having me on. You're very welcome. I think, thank you. I think
1:30:14
this is, it's sort of multi-layered. So I raised five children and I know how hard it is to cook
1:30:21
meals for all of them that they like. But I think when we look at cost, the cost of eating clean now
1:30:27
has rised astronomically compared to what it used to be. It's easier to buy convenience food. It's cheaper
1:30:34
Isn't this true everywhere, though? I think it is. So why is it only happening here, then
1:30:40
Why are we so much worse than everywhere else? Because I think when we look at the UK itself
1:30:44
we are quite densely populated. We don't have, one, the climate to grow the fruit and veg in the scale that they do
1:30:51
you know, different countries do. And also, you know, we don't have the space to grow
1:30:55
But they eat in winter as well. these countries, you know, it's not just
1:30:59
we go to Greece and Spain in the summer and see the lovely watermelons and the big old
1:31:03
tomatoes and we think that's a but they eat in winter as well Yeah, I think there's a convenience aspect
1:31:09
to it, you know, we are and I'm not saying that people don't sort of work and rush around
1:31:13
there, but when we look at the sort of rat race that we seem to be in now
1:31:17
and a lot of women, more so women are working now when they may have been at home
1:31:21
previously, I think the marketing in shops is marketing for convenience, grab and go
1:31:27
that's gone up quite a lot and I think the marketing for children
1:31:31
is pretty it looks great, they want one and then all of those things that are packaged
1:31:37
you know yourself, they've got additives preservatives, they've got long life so they have long life for them
1:31:43
they've got to have lots of different additives and it's not real food, you take away that
1:31:48
it's more mechanical So you need legislation then, you'd actually need to have
1:31:51
laws governing what can and can't be sold I remember when they put
1:31:55
a little bit of extra tax on fizzy drinks, all the usual suspects had a fit of the vapors
1:32:00
But without genuine legislation, you're not going to be able to change the direction of traffic at all
1:32:06
But we will always gravitate towards the worst case scenario. The easiest, most convenient, most processed, most cheap
1:32:13
most artificially tasty food available will be the ones that prevail. Yeah, but I think some of it with the marketing
1:32:20
we buy with our eyes. And there was a documentary on quite a few years ago
1:32:24
and it was to do with a pie, And they made a pie with really good ingredients, but put it in a really bland packet
1:32:30
And then they made one with all of the kind of stuff that was left over, but put a really lovely packaging on it
1:32:35
And that was the one that sold, because we purchased with our eyes. So it's almost like, you know, they did sort of, I suppose, branding on cigarettes
1:32:42
which was quite horrific. If you was to do something where they took away or, you know
1:32:48
maybe tone down some of the colours on children's packaging so it didn't get..
1:32:52
But again, that's not... I mean, maybe I'm being a bit obsessive about this, But that's not UK, is it? That's not peculiar to us
1:32:59
What is it about this country in this era that has got everything so wrong
1:33:06
It's a really good question. I mean, I do think because maybe we are convenience-led
1:33:11
in terms of the rushing to get in, you know, we've got air fryers now, children..
1:33:16
They're good, just for the avoidance of that. Air fryers are generally a good thing. They're a much healthier way of cooking food
1:33:21
than some of the other alternatives. Well, they're better than frying. It's an easy way to put it in
1:33:26
Yeah, just to bung it in. And when you do that, if you bung that in
1:33:29
you become desensitised to cooking. Do you think so? Yeah, I think so
1:33:35
It's only like an oven. Just a little oven. But you don't have to keep an eye on it
1:33:40
And if you've just come in and you've got three children and they're arguing, they're stressed from school
1:33:44
you've got to quickly get in and unpack it. Yeah, but again, it's not like the air fryer
1:33:48
is unique to the United Kingdom. All of these things are true
1:33:52
I wonder if, I'll get really deep on it, is it because we were the first country to industrialise
1:33:57
So because the industrial revolution started here, we moved from land to factory quicker and earlier than everybody else did
1:34:04
But then that wouldn't explain why the other countries haven't subsequently caught us up on the race to the bottom
1:34:08
I don't know, Louise, great stuff, thank you. Rachel's in Worcester. Rachel, what would you like to say
1:34:12
Hi, it was interesting listening to Louise. So I've got a couple of ideas
1:34:16
The first one is that I think a lot of fact in the UK
1:34:22
both parents tend to work, and often they tend to work full-time
1:34:26
and I think that's a really big factor, because I work part-time... It's true everywhere else as well, though, isn't it
1:34:32
I don't know that it necessarily is. Not in... Germany? France? Maybe Germany, but not specifically for France
1:34:41
and I would say definitely not Italy. I would say that the mums tend to be part-time or stay-at-home
1:34:48
whereas in the UK we just can't afford to do that. 78% of women aged 25 to 54 are working in France
1:34:55
Fair enough. So you're wrong. I mean that kindly because I'll tell you what it is
1:35:00
and this is why it's dangerous to go down this route because they've got much better childcare than we've got
1:35:06
Much more supportive state system. That could be it because the issue is how long it takes to cook
1:35:10
So I am a big cook, and I come from a family of big cooks. And my family, like, sat there
1:35:17
because I present them with these lovely dinners, and they don't realise that I've literally spent
1:35:21
anywhere between four to ten hours on a meal. Ten hours? For them to enjoy
1:35:26
What are you doing, a suckling pig? Well, you know, if you want to do really good pulled pork
1:35:31
you're going to have to, you know, get up in the morning. Okay, so it's been in the oven for ten hours. You haven't been actually in the..
1:35:36
No, not necessarily. You haven't been in action for ten hours. But I will be stood up for a good couple of hours of those four to ten hours
1:35:44
And, you know, that is important. People don't have that sort of time
1:35:49
They come home, they want to get something in quickly, and they don't often have the education that is needed for food
1:35:56
They don't understand about different cooks. And I know this from my peers
1:36:00
You know, I'm 46. My best friends are still my school friends. And we were talking about roasting a beef
1:36:05
And I said, well, what cup was it? And they said, I don't know, just the cheapest one. And I'm sat there saying, well, that could be brisket
1:36:11
it could be skirt, it could be this. And they look at me as if I'm speaking another language
1:36:15
They don't know about different food types and the way it should be cooked
1:36:19
Why, how come you do? Very good question. So, number one, I think it's to do with my upbringing
1:36:27
and the fact that my mum really cared about food and what went into it
1:36:33
And I think you've got to love. the answer is loving, wanting to put love into the food
1:36:40
So you learn about it. There's something in that. Yeah, there is. And, you know, it's a bit like pork scratchings
1:36:45
You can buy pork scratchings, but I will go to the butcher and I will buy the pork
1:36:49
skin and I'll make my own pork scratchings. You know, and I know what's in them
1:36:54
Respectfully, that's a tiny bit excessive. Yes, maybe it is. But you could go to, I'm trying to
1:36:59
think, whereabouts in Worcester are you? So I'm South Worcester. So just below Evesham
1:37:05
I can't think off the top of my head. Used to be able to go to Charlie Clark's and Kidamist
1:37:09
A good butcher will have a nice bag of pork scratchings on the counter that you can buy. Yes, they will
1:37:14
But I know what's in mine. Also, that's pure fat, Rachel. How can you be coming on the radio extolling the virtue
1:37:19
of a face full of fat during a conversation about healthy eating
1:37:22
That's literally fat. It pure fat It also got protein in And then what I do is I render off the tallow and I keep the tallow for cooking for things And it a bit like a roast chicken I roast a chicken and it feeds four people and then it do sandwiches and then I boil the carcass and then it do a soup or stock
1:37:42
No one does these things. Risotto. You can do a nice risotto. I do. I make a risotto with my chicken stock. Thank you very much
1:37:47
Yeah, but a lot of people don't spend the time. Well, I know, and a lot of people don't have the time or find the time
1:37:54
or they don't have the knowledge and the confidence and all of those things that explain why Jamie Oliver should be canonized
1:37:59
But, yeah, I mean, you are making an awful lot of sense. I don't buy the two working parents thing
1:38:06
That's a sort of weird 19... And I know I'm not blaming you for that because it's a very popular trope in the conversation
1:38:11
but that's why I'm fascinated by why this country is different from other countries. So, for example, you could message me saying
1:38:16
did you know there are more McDonald's in France than there are in the UK? and I don't know whether that's true or not
1:38:20
but I know that if you go to McDonald's in France you will find local cheeses on the burgers
1:38:26
like Emmental or Cantal and you can buy a McBaguette which will be on a freshly baked baguette
1:38:33
You go to McDonald's in France you can have crepes and macarons. You can even grab a beer actually
1:38:38
although that's not really your message when it comes to the healthy conversation and then you compare that to this country
1:38:43
and you are talking about two completely different meals even though they have the same name on the box
1:38:48
thank you Rachel I've got an away shirt as well Eleanor, I've got the away shirt
1:38:55
as well, do you think, is it possible to have too much, I mean could the show cope with two world exclusive football stories
1:39:01
with a tangential link, oh I haven't explained what the tangential link to Jude Bellingham is have I
1:39:04
so Jude Bellingham should by rights be playing for Kidder Minister Harriers
1:39:09
because the lad grew up in Stourbridge which is just down the road
1:39:13
also the site, as most of the black country you get the finest pork scratchings in the world
1:39:17
It's a miracle how I can knit all this stuff together, isn't it? So Jude Bellingham and Joe Bellingham should both really have been playing for Kid Aminster Harriers
1:39:25
not least because his dad, or their dad, Mark Bellingham, who was a police officer, a sergeant in my neck of the woods when I was growing up
1:39:34
he played for pretty much every amateur non-league team in the West Midlands except Kid Aminster Harriers
1:39:39
So that's the tangential link to my world-exclusive unveiling of the new Kid Aminster Harriers shirt
1:39:44
just a few moments ago, live on this programme. The tangential link is that Jude Bellingham grew up within, almost within spitting distance of the kid and Mr. Harriot Stadium or the home of football, as it's not known
1:39:58
James O'Brien on LBC. It is six minutes after 12 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:40:06
Listen, can I confide in you? This is quite genuine, actually. As a rule, when I decide to talk about a story that has literally just broken
1:40:18
it doesn't always go as well as the other conversations that we have on the programme
1:40:22
I haven't fully worked out why this is, because my job, and God knows I take long enough to introduce a subject
1:40:27
so there's no excuse for not knowing what the subject is by the time I get to the end of my interminable monologue
1:40:32
But I think it's got something to do with percolation. I think that sometimes a story has to percolate through our conversational system
1:40:40
I spend a little bit more than 20 minutes or 10 minutes or 15 minutes thinking about something
1:40:44
You need to be aware of something in the background. And then, as I say that out loud to you, I think, is that true
1:40:50
And were you aware this morning of the story about British children being more unhealthy than pretty much anybody else
1:40:56
Were you aware of today's findings on that front? You were previously aware of the phenomenon, but were you specifically aware of that story
1:41:04
I mean, the weather. Obviously, you were aware of the weather, but were you aware
1:41:09
I don't know if it's true. It's just a little thing I've got. What's the word for that
1:41:13
It's not a prejudice. I've just got like a... Well, it's like the mental equivalent of an earworm
1:41:18
Is it a brain worm? I've just got this thing... No, I'm thinking now of Robert Kennedy, aren't I
1:41:24
I've got this idea in my head that when I choose to do a story
1:41:29
five minutes after 12, because I just heard it in the 12 noon news
1:41:36
I've just got the idea in my head that it doesn't always go very well as a phone-in. I'm just going to chat with my colleagues
1:41:42
Does that... Do you agree with that? Does that... Does that... Does that tally with your..
1:41:47
I don't think anyone's listening to me. This is terrible. Not only... This is my own studio
1:41:51
No one's listening to me. The recollections of phone-ins when we've decided to do a topic in the moment
1:41:57
after the news has broken, and I don't know, anyway, I'm going to do that now
1:42:03
because this is just... This just makes me sick. £10 billion. pounds. Boris Johnson's government spent, you remember him? You remember him? Yeah. 14.9
1:42:16
billion pounds spent by the government on PPE. Two thirds of it completely wasted. 10
1:42:23
billion pounds worth. 10 billion pounds worth of PPE utterly wasted. Carol Vorderman, when
1:42:32
she came in to do full disclosure, a big friend of this radio station, Carol, as you know
1:42:38
and we bonded over a very simple observation, and listen, neither of us, especially me, are holier than thou
1:42:47
Carol actually did put her money where her mouth is. She made her maths education modules
1:42:53
a maths education programme available throughout the pandemic, for free, where ordinarily, because it's a business
1:43:00
you would pay to access it. But we both bonded over this very simple idea
1:43:05
that when an alarm goes off, You like to think that most people would think to themselves, how can I help
1:43:13
Right? An alarm goes off, how can I help? So, you're not a professional, it's not your job to run into the burning building or anything like that
1:43:24
but how can I help? If there's a national crisis, if there's a war on
1:43:30
and you might not be in the army, in the absence of conscription
1:43:34
you might not be signing up, but what can I do to help? if I put together care packages for the troops out there
1:43:41
do a bit of raising of awareness of the mental health charities that are going to help these people when they come back from the war zone
1:43:47
How can I help? I think it was arguably the most abject lesson in cynicism that I've ever had
1:43:55
when I looked around this country in the dog days of the pandemic and the lockdowns
1:44:00
and saw almost all of the ruling class in this country hear the alarm bells ringing
1:44:06
and think to themselves, how can I make a few quid? How can I make a few quid
1:44:12
Some cases, of course, are still ongoing in a very legal sense
1:44:15
so we can't talk about those. And there will be some genuine errors here
1:44:20
There will be some people who sold useless PPE believing that it was useful
1:44:25
because there was, you know, an emergency situation was in place. but it can't all be explained away so easily
1:44:36
£10 billion worth of our money wasted but also of course given to individuals and companies
1:44:44
some of whom had only set up their organisation the day before they got the contract
1:44:48
absolutely wasted I'm going to ask you why I think but before we do that Fraser Knight has been at the inquiry listening to the details revealed today of module five which is the module of the inquiry chaired by the inimitable Baroness Hallett that has been looking specifically at procurement
1:45:10
What can you tell us, Fraser? James, the theme from the Covid inquiry of the UK being underprepared for Covid continues in this report
1:45:21
Baroness Hallett really criticising how unprepared we were for procuring emergency medical equipment
1:45:28
that was so desperately needed, PPE, ventilators, oxygen, all of the above
1:45:34
But also with really heavy criticism of the wasted money. £14.9 billion was spent on PPE alone during the inquiry
1:45:45
Of that, she has said almost two-thirds of it, £10 billion, was wasted
1:45:53
And there's been a lot of conversation and a lot of focus in this module as well
1:45:58
around the way that those emergency deals, those emergency procurement was handled
1:46:04
The VIP lane that was set up right at the heart of government, that was for offers of help that were sent directly to ministers and senior officials
1:46:13
She has said that should never have been set up and it should never be repeated either
1:46:19
It treated people favourably. But she has said it has transpired that those contracts turned out to be more expensive
1:46:28
And proportionally, they had more performance issues than some of the contracts that were issued through the normal routes
1:46:36
She said that the government just wasn't set up in a way to deal with trying to get those emergency contracts through
1:46:44
And then when there was a call to arms essentially from the health secretary
1:46:48
then Matt Hancock and the prime minister, Boris Johnson, they were simply inundated with offers that they couldn't properly triage them
1:46:57
One of the figures that really stood out to me here is that in just 15 weeks after they had been warned
1:47:03
not to make that Dunkirk spirit style call to arms. They had 25,000 offers from 15,000 suppliers
1:47:14
And because of the pressure that was being put on officials from the ministers who were referring in their own contacts, asking what was happening with them
1:47:22
that was why the VIP lane was set up. But really, really heavy criticism in this report
1:47:29
saying that that was not the right thing to do. And of course, it also says it damaged public trust right at the time when it was needed most
1:47:40
There was such a lack of transparency. 11 recommendations she's making in this report to improve that
1:47:46
but also to improve those processes, because she says £10 billion, a vast amount of public money, was wasted as a result
1:47:55
I mean I know that she has stressed that she has not identified cronyism or corruption on the part of ministers and officials but suggesting that it was at best misguided and embedded unfairness in emergency procurement is damning enough
1:48:11
The idea was that if a company making a PPE offer came with a recommendation from ministers, MPs or members of the House of Lords
1:48:20
the huge majority of which would have had links to the Conservative Party, then they would receive preferential treatment
1:48:28
They would be progressed. They would be accelerated through the process. process. Exactly that. And they said that some of those referrals that were made were almost
1:48:41
seemed to be more credible because they were people that were known by those ministers
1:48:48
by those senior officials, by those MPs. But actually, it didn't necessarily mean that the
1:48:52
offer that was being made was a credible one. One of the quotes that I'll just read out for you here
1:48:58
that's in the report, as Matt Hancock MP stated, the approach was to deal with any legal headaches
1:49:04
later. The primary goal above all else was to save lives. And another bit says it was not uncommon
1:49:10
then for some of the suppliers who were making those offers to threaten officials that they
1:49:16
would escalate their grievances to the press or to ministers. The common thread was that these
1:49:21
offers were potentially politically sensitive and were from people who would require greater
1:49:28
handling. But then when you drill down into some of the figures and the statistics that are in this
1:49:32
report, you can see that the average cost per unit was much higher, that the performance
1:49:38
issues that came alongside it was proportionally higher. And that's why this recommendation
1:49:43
is being made, that there needs to be a much better process. We were relying too heavily
1:49:48
Baroness Hallett says, on contracts in China. We didn't have enough set up to create more
1:49:56
equipment here in the UK and that is where this all went wrong she says. No prospect of seeing
1:50:03
any of this money return into the taxpayers pockets? Well we've been told that they are
1:50:09
going to try certainly when the Labour government came in they said that they were going to try and
1:50:13
claw back some of that money. We have seen you know the High Court making certainly at least
1:50:18
one order that was for PPE Medpro to pay back money but they are of course as we know under
1:50:24
criminal investigation, or certainly some of the people linked to it are, the inquiry
1:50:30
here did hear evidence surrounding PPE Medpro, but because of the ongoing investigation, it
1:50:36
hasn't actually released that information. It says that that will only come out when
1:50:41
the criminal investigation has concluded. It's been going on since 2021. Of course
1:50:47
we have seen one arrest, but Doug Barrowman and the Conservative peer, Baroness Moan
1:50:51
both have always denied any wrongdoing. But, you know, even more widely
1:50:56
there are other questions about, you know, the quality of PPE and the quality of equipment
1:51:02
that was put forward, a lot of it having to be incinerated because it wasn't up to standards
1:51:07
There are so many questions around how it all went so wrong
1:51:11
how so much money was wasted. And we'll ask some of those questions now, I think
1:51:15
Fraser Knight, thank you very much. I mean, do you remember the call we took
1:51:21
from a woman who was working for a ventilator company and had actual ventilators that were available
1:51:28
and couldn't get anyone to pick up the phone. It was a little bit after the event that we spoke
1:51:35
Or was it actually in the thick of it? I can't quite remember. And I remember a sense of..
1:51:41
Probably a German word for a combination of disbelief but also resignation
1:51:47
I can't believe this is true, but I can. Do you see what I mean? like a sort of cognitive dissonance
1:51:52
And she had actual ventilators that were ready. They were ready to be deployed
1:51:56
And she wasn't able to get through to anybody in the relevant offices and departments
1:52:01
But if you were mates with Matt Hancock, or if you were pulling pints in his local pub
1:52:06
then you could get through to the relevant departments. That's not an opinion, that's just counting
1:52:12
Baroness Hallett has not found evidence of cronyism or corruption, but I don't know what definition of cronyism you use
1:52:17
to arrive at that conclusion. Because if you know someone who is close to government
1:52:24
you get your calls answered And if you don you don So I guess croniosm is a slightly more nuanced descriptor than I would previously have allowed So I am interested in the impact of what we
1:52:39
hearing. Not just in the question of how it happened, but in what it meant to you. And I
1:52:46
appreciate that this might be quite traumatic for you, actually, that you prefer perhaps not to think
1:52:53
about those months when you were at the absolute front line of an unfolding national tragedy
1:53:01
while politicians um boris johnson included were holding parties in downing street
1:53:06
you were dealing with death misery and tragedy in unbearable circumstances and those circumstances
1:53:16
were made worse, were made worse by this scandal. Those circumstances in which you tried to do your job
1:53:28
were made worse by the fact that the government was handing over billions of pounds for useless PPE
1:53:35
So, 0345 6060973 is the number you need to tell me how the, let's just say the shortage
1:53:48
how the mismanagement of the PPE situation affected you. What were you wearing on the wards
1:53:56
What were you doing? How did the fact that the government was uniquely incompetent
1:54:03
if not corrupt, and I stress again that the findings had not found corruption or cronyism
1:54:08
but the government was uniquely incompetent. 15 billion, I mean, it's just, it's actually almost unbelievable how much of this money
1:54:16
turned out to be spent on goods that were not fit for purpose
1:54:24
What happened? That's question number one. What happened in your world as a consequence of this failure
1:54:32
03, 4, 5, 6, 0, 6, 0, 9, 7, 3. and then
1:54:36
I think we can have a crack at how did this happen
1:54:40
how did this happen I was quite naive going into the pandemic
1:54:46
I felt that this country would be quite well equipped to cope I watched the scenes coming from Italy
1:54:51
and I thought to myself I'm pretty sure we're better than that
1:54:54
I'm pretty sure we're I hope that doesn't sound racist or xenophobic
1:54:59
maybe it's a bit a bit of both but I hope not
1:55:03
I just remember thinking surely our system is better equipped than theirs
1:55:09
to cope with this sort of crisis. And the next thing you know
1:55:13
nurses are going to work wearing plastic bags because there's no PPE to be found
1:55:18
And then you start discovering that they're buying stuff that is unfit for use from people
1:55:23
who are on the same dinner party circuit as they are. And it's still worth asking in terms of further detail
1:55:32
it's still worth asking how do you think this happened how did we end up spending
1:55:39
10 billion dollars on PPE that was not fit for purpose I mean listen you can't libel anybody
1:55:48
obviously but you can tell me what you think the explanation or what you think the reason is
1:55:54
they spent 14.9 billion and 10 billion of it was wasted That's not, I mean, that's not, what's the word I'm looking for
1:56:05
That's not even close to an absorbable cost. So we spent £20 billion on PPE, and unfortunately, what, £5 billion of it was wasted
1:56:14
But that's the price you pay when you're moving on a pinhead in a time of international emergency
1:56:19
You would forgive a little, there'd be leeway, right? There'd be leeway. We spent £20 billion on PPE, and £2 billion turned out to be wasted
1:56:27
Or we spent 20, well, 15, stay with the actual figures. We spent £15 billion on PPE, and unfortunately, £1.5 billion worth was wasted
1:56:38
We spent £15 billion on PPE, and unfortunately, a third was wasted
1:56:43
£5 billion, but you don't understand what it was like. You know, our backs were to the wall, our noses were to the grindstone
1:56:49
We had to move fast, and we had to move decisively. So we ended up spending, you know, for every £2 we spent on the good stuff
1:56:58
we were spending one pound on the bad stuff. That's not what happened. For every pound they spent on the good stuff
1:57:04
they were spending two pounds on the bad stuff. I have no idea how that happened
1:57:09
and I have no idea who will be able to tell us how they think it did happen
1:57:13
but I know that there'll be someone listening to this programme that can and I know that it might well be you
1:57:18
So 0345 6060 973 is the number you need. Question one, the personal
1:57:24
How did this hit you? 03456060973 Question 2, the political How the hell did this happen
1:57:34
How did Boris Johnson's government end up spending for every pound they spent on decent PPE
1:57:39
they spent £2 on the dodgy stuff? This is LBC James O'Brien on LBC
1:57:46
5 after 12 is the time The personal, of course, what happened to you
1:57:50
as a consequence of Boris Johnson's government abject failure to be even vaguely competent
1:57:55
in the procurement of PPE. And then the political, what on earth explains how they could have got everything
1:58:03
how they could have performed so appallingly? But there's also room, I think
1:58:08
for your abiding memory, as it were. So, you know, the equivalent of the lady who rang us to tell us
1:58:15
that she actually had ventilators that were ready, that were fit for purpose
1:58:22
that were good to go, and she couldn't get hold of anybody who might have been able to deploy them
1:58:26
So what did you do during that period as someone who wasn't on the VIP lane
1:58:31
Do you see what I mean? I hope this works. You couldn't get on the VIP lane
1:58:35
because you weren't Matt Hancock's pub landlord or you hadn't been at school with Boris Johnson
1:58:41
What happened when you tried to help? With kit and caboodle that you know to this day was good
1:58:51
You know that the staff that you wanted to help supply was fit for purpose, but you couldn't get your phone picked up
1:58:56
when billions of pounds worth of unfit goods were being snapped up by the government
1:59:02
as a consequence of a VIP lane set up for people who had their home phone numbers or their mobiles
1:59:08
Rafi is in Edinburgh. Rafi, what can you tell us? Oh, hi, James
1:59:13
Just a couple of thoughts, really. Really glad that you've picked this up
1:59:18
I'm a nurse, and during COVID, we were all kind of put back out into the wards essentially to try and support
1:59:27
I was just saying to your researcher there that I think the PPE thing was really tough
1:59:34
I suppose I should start by saying that, you know, the hospitals were amazing
1:59:38
They just did everything they could to keep us as safe as possible
1:59:42
The people in the hospitals, that's the point, isn't it? The people like you. And I've worked in the NHS for 26 years
1:59:50
and never have I worked in a time where actually people were just really pulling together
1:59:55
You know, every day when something had changed, everything was flexing and actually
1:59:59
HS was really working as a team and really trying to kind of deliver
2:00:04
But what I was trying to say was that one of the hardest things each day
2:00:08
was rocking up to your PPE station before you went into a COVID ward
2:00:12
and not knowing what you were going to come up to. So your mask, your gloves, your reprins
2:00:17
And as time went on, just that PPE got worse and worse
2:00:22
So some days you would rock up and there'd just be a sticker on a box of something that had expired five years earlier
2:00:27
and you're we think now someone had sold that to them they weren't just pulling it out of the storeroom
2:00:34
because it wouldn't have been in the storeroom if it was out of date it shouldn't have been in the storeroom if it was out of date
2:00:39
so I don't know where it was sourced from but my point was that
2:00:43
yes I was concerned about my health because it was before vaccines while we were still doing research trials to see
2:00:49
what we could potentially do to help people but it was really about, I had to go home
2:00:53
after this and so So, you know, I was unable to keep
2:00:57
I was worried I was unable to keep the people at home safe simply through these PPE choices
2:01:04
And it was just really, it was tough. Did you have time at the time, Rafi
2:01:10
did you have time to think about this? Because I'm struck by the constant state of emergency
2:01:17
that you would have been in at work. So, oh my God, there's a box here with out-of-date PPE in it
2:01:23
You wouldn't, at that moment, in that period, you wouldn't have been thinking to yourself, how the hell did this happen
2:01:28
Because you were too busy thinking, I've got to go look after that person in that bed over there, or not
2:01:34
Yeah, I think we just thought, what's the option? Yes, yes. And there wasn't another option
2:01:40
And actually, we could raise it with infection control services, and they were great
2:01:45
They were just saying, you know, we're trying to provide what we can for you. But there wasn't another option
2:01:50
You had to go in. And so, you know, take what you had
2:01:56
And looking back, do you have any answers to that? I mean, do you have any theories, answers, ideas
2:02:02
How the hell did this happen? How the heck did this happen? Because if you did your job that badly, people would be dead
2:02:10
Yeah, I think we just trusted that what we needed would always be provided for us
2:02:17
as healthcare professionals, especially when we could see that something big was
2:02:22
coming. Our colleagues in Italy, we knew it was coming. Why were we
2:02:28
so ill-prepared? At the start, it was okay. It's just as time
2:02:32
went on, it got more depleted and less high quality, I would say. Certainly just from a general
2:02:38
nursing perspective. The other thing I was just saying was that the nursing
2:02:44
staff and medical staff really pulled hard so there was people in those words who didn't have toiletries or clothing
2:02:50
because they'd just come in but people couldn't bring stuff into them or people who were dying and needed to talk to their families via iPads
2:02:58
and it was local charities within the hospital and staff members who brought that stuff in for them
2:03:05
money out of their own pockets just to try and support that
2:03:09
so the money that has gone into PPE that was never used
2:03:14
makes me angry because I just think So you're never going to get reimbursed for that, are you
2:03:19
You're not going to get reimbursed for that. No, nobody would want it, but I think it's just that lack of people focus
2:03:26
Well, that's a generous way of putting it, lack of people focus. I probably have stronger words
2:03:30
but that's why I do what I do for a living, and you care for people on a day-to-day basis
2:03:37
It's the hospitals. That's the bit I struggle with. You know, if I turned up for work as a gob on a stick
2:03:42
in an air-conditioned studio that no one else has to come into
2:03:46
and they hadn't done everything they could have done to look after me
2:03:50
And for the record, they did. I was better looked after than you by my employer during the pandemic
2:03:56
and I just chapped nonsense on the radio. You're literally looking after people
2:04:01
In a hospital, you were being given out-of-date stuff. You know, it was bad enough if you were in a factory
2:04:07
or you were in a shop, or you were in, as I say, a radio station
2:04:12
But in a hospital, to go into battle, to go up against what you were up against
2:04:17
without feeling as if anybody had your back. Yeah, and I felt like the hospital had our back
2:04:25
Of course. But I felt like probably the bigger system... Above that. Matt Hancock
2:04:29
I couldn't really see, actually, what the reality was at the front door of the Redwards
2:04:36
No, no. Well, thank you for everything you did. And, I mean, do you think about it much
2:04:42
Or have you sort of filed it away? You know, James, I think you've probably got a generation of healthcare workers who are pretty scarred by it
2:04:52
You know, there's positives. I think I was really fortunate in that whilst everybody was slightly going off their heads at home
2:04:59
I had something to get up for every day. I went in, we had community, we had support
2:05:05
We were all working closely together and supporting each other. we had psychological support
2:05:10
but we just saw too much death and too many people dying quickly
2:05:17
without the support of their families learned about them so I think there's
2:05:21
many of us you know even just listening to the news and then hearing your initial talk
2:05:25
about it it just gives you that kind of feeling in the pit
2:05:29
of your stomach again I can only imagine Rafi I can only imagine
2:05:33
and I thank you for helping me to conduct this conversation in a sensitive way
2:05:38
that is mindful of exactly that impact on people like you and so many of your colleagues
2:05:44
because my listeners, or a massive majority of my listeners, would care about that sort of thing
2:05:49
It's hard to imagine that the people trousering millions and millions and millions of pounds
2:05:53
for substandard PPE gave a hoot, or indeed do now. 12.33 is the time
2:05:59
Tim Humphrey is here with your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. Little echoes of some of the stories that scandalised me
2:06:07
but they are as nothing compared to the memories that people like Rafi
2:06:11
and her colleagues in the health service are going to have. Even when they hear the phrase red wards
2:06:16
there'll be tummies turning over and sick feelings growing. I remember this
2:06:22
Gabriel Pogrand at the Sunday Times did a pretty good job of tracking down many of these people
2:06:26
There was a bloke called Philip Johnson who had a company in Birmingham that made foam products and he got awarded a 149 million pound government contract for PPE visors about 70 of which were never used um and the story I remember was him tucking into a cake
2:06:49
which a birthday cake which was styled as a briefcase full of cash paid himself 13 million
2:06:57
quid after seeing his company profits rise um at a quite extraordinary rate as a direct consequence
2:07:04
of that contract um the company after that story emerged subsequently went into liquidation and
2:07:11
that's what i meant about carol vorderman because even if you were in a position to provide something
2:07:16
of use the mentality that thinks let's sell it for as much as we can during a time of national
2:07:24
crisis, if indeed that's what's happened there. I've shared you all the details that I'm aware of
2:07:29
but we know that there were plenty of people who were saying, well, what's the most we can charge
2:07:34
People like Rafi working for a relative pittance compared to the 13 million pounds that this chap
2:07:41
trousered. And that's on a contract that was 149 million pounds. So that's money that's left over
2:07:47
after the business has been done for one member of the outfit
2:07:53
Just thinking, what's the most we can squeeze out of the taxpayer at a time like this
2:07:58
Matthew's in deal. Matthew, what made you pick up the phone? Well, I work for a private ambulance service offering patient transport
2:08:06
and during March and April 2020, we saw PPE coming in, like really flimsy aprons that would break as soon as you put them on and gloves instead of the blue
2:08:20
gloves we usually have ones that were clear and looked like they would use in a sandwich shop and
2:08:25
it was just substandard absolute rubbish we were offered the proper face masks but ended up with
2:08:32
those flimsy ones that break when you put them over your ear and why what do you mean you were
2:08:37
offered the proper one sorry we were offered the the proper why didn't you take them well because
2:08:43
they fitted us for them and then they never turned up so you weren't offered them sorry i mean you
2:08:49
were told you were going to get them and then you told we're going to get them and it never happened and and at that sort of time especially april we were emptying the hospitals of people to go to
2:08:58
care homes and the care homes were saying have they been tested well don't know probably not
2:09:05
You know, we were part of that. I just feel so guilty for it as well
2:09:11
And I had COVID for the first time. Why do you feel guilty? Well, because we were taking these poorly people into care homes
2:09:18
and look what happened in the care homes. Yeah, but it wasn't your decision. No, but it was, it's just, you feel part of it
2:09:24
Yeah, I suppose you do. I suppose you do. Yeah, yeah, it's just so it makes my blood boil
2:09:28
listening to it, all the money that's been wasted. and... It's an extraordinary
2:09:33
figure that it's two-thirds of all the money spent, because as I say, there's going to be
2:09:37
some natural wastage, or there's going to be some shrinkage, or whatever
2:09:41
slightly euphemistic word you want to use you're not going to get 100
2:09:45
value for money on almost anything you ever buy, but for two-thirds
2:09:49
of it to be dodged, or unused is incredible, right? It's criminal
2:09:53
isn't it? Yes, it is, it is, although she says no evidence of criminality
2:09:58
or cronyism, or corruption has been found, which makes you wonder how she would explain it. I'll find out
2:10:03
I'll read up on it a bit more after the show. However, all the people like myself
2:10:07
who have now got long COVID and are still living with it, you know
2:10:11
There's no apology to us, there's no help for us at all
2:10:17
Well, I mean, that's not entirely true because, of course, if your long COVID means that
2:10:21
you can no longer work at anything like the level that you worked on before, then there'll be a tabloid
2:10:25
journalist or a conservative politician along anytime soon to accuse you of malingering
2:10:29
and faking and just inventing your condition in order to get hold of some benefit
2:10:33
payments, Matthew. So there is that, mate. Yeah, lovely. I'm glad I made you smile
2:10:40
You take care. Thank you for what you did. The reason you feel guilt, Kevin points out, is because
2:10:47
you have a conscience. And one wonders how much conscience is possessed by the people
2:10:53
who made the millions of pounds, whether or not they celebrated their windfalls
2:10:57
with briefcase full of cash-shaped birthday cakes or not. Perhaps they bought a yacht
2:11:04
James is in St Agnes in Cornwall. James, what would you like to say? Hi, James. Thanks for having me on
2:11:09
You're very welcome. I was just being interviewed just before your show
2:11:13
about leadership and organisational change, and I'd mentioned quite presciently that the job of an organisation and a leader
2:11:21
is to build capacity for when the unforeseen happens. Yes. And that's why I think we failed here. So pandemics are prepared for, and it should not have been a shock, whilst they're rare, to have things in place. Now, there's a lot to be learned now. And the key is to take the lesson and now learn it for the future, because there will be another pandemic
2:11:45
and I suppose my point is in planning for these things and I do planning for emergency response
2:11:51
is I would very much like to think that we now have trusted suppliers
2:11:56
ready for these situations that we can update every 18 months or two years
2:12:01
in planning exercises so we're never caught short again. It's all about planning
2:12:06
and it sounds really, really simple but the answer normally is quite simple
2:12:11
Yes, well, preparation. I mean, it's the thing, isn't it? And I think I remember, and I'm just double-checking
2:12:17
because I don't want to get any facts wrong during this conversation, that Boris Johnson literally scrapped the government's
2:12:22
Threats, Hazards, Resilience and Contingency Committee, which would have been charged with preparing the country for a pandemic
2:12:29
some six months before the coronavirus broke out in the UK. Absolutely
2:12:33
It's just incredible, isn't it? And yet, of course, he continues to sort of swan around the place
2:12:38
getting richly rewarded by various plutocrats and the Daily Mail. When you say it's simple
2:12:46
what you mean is that the known unknowns can be dealt with
2:12:50
What about the unknown unknowns, if you see what I mean? I mean, because what was it
2:12:55
I do. So there's only one way you deal with those, and that's by being fully prepared for what you do know
2:13:04
So you have the capacity to search for those things that you can't prepare for
2:13:09
It all about building capacity ultimately Yes and having it in place I can even remember what happened with the Nightingale hospitals but that looked to me like something that would be done
2:13:21
by a government that hadn't got its proper preparation in place but was desperately scrabbling around to do something or anything
2:13:27
in the face of imminent potential disaster. Well, and actually with that, it's a case in point
2:13:33
We need those prepared for the day they were at war again, and that could come fairly soon
2:13:38
So we need to take these lessons and adapt them further because the country isn't all that ready
2:13:44
When I speak to the general population, it's brilliant that people feel safe
2:13:49
Sure. But please prepare for the day that we're not going to come in. Yes, thus speaks an emergency or a disaster planner
2:13:57
It's brilliant that people feel safe, brackets, but they shouldn't, close brackets
2:14:02
I'm sure you're very good at what you do. Thank you, James
2:14:06
It's just coming up to quarter to one. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
2:14:10
Natasha Clark has been with the Foreign Secretary, Yvette Cooper, who had some particularly interesting things to say
2:14:17
about her government's handling of, well, the Palestinian issue, perhaps more than many of the other things they talked about
2:14:26
It's something that I'm keen to dig into a little deeper. We'll be doing that before the end of the program
2:14:31
The time now is 12.45. James O'Brien on LBC. 47, you're better at this than I am
2:14:37
in fact thank you to half a dozen people who've reminded me of the full disclosure
2:14:41
that we did with Lucy Eastope who is in the same world
2:14:45
that James our last caller was in in it sort of disaster response
2:14:49
and emergency planning one of the most inspirational people that I've ever met Lucy and you can find that full disclosure
2:14:55
wherever you get your podcast you can also find it I should have mentioned to you on a new YouTube channel
2:15:00
dedicated to full disclosure my sort of long form interview podcast which has had what they've called a soft launch
2:15:09
I'm not entirely sure what that means. It possibly means I'm not supposed to be telling you about it
2:15:14
Keith is nodding. Well, anyway, it's too late now, Keith. Anyway, everyone's too busy talking about my world-exclusive football story
2:15:22
with a tangential link to Jude Bellingham to worry about this sort of stuff. So it's just up and running now
2:15:26
so you can find lots of full disclosures there and also little clips of bits and highlights
2:15:33
and it's worth digging out the Lucy Eastoak one from Global Player as well
2:15:37
More on that YouTube excitement as I have it. But Natasha Clarke is here
2:15:44
Fresh back overnight from Belgium where she was. Can I say where you were
2:15:48
Yeah, of course. That's good because I already have it. You just did. Sometimes these things are classified, not afterwards
2:15:53
After the fact is fine. Not afterwards, that's all right. With the Vectre. That's all right, I've put a picture on the social media
2:15:57
It's already been a giveaway. Were you wearing a football shirt? No, I wasn't. Why not? Yours is hanging outside the office
2:16:04
I deliberated showing up in it. I deliberated just popping it on
2:16:09
That would have been a bit... I thought it would have been a bit weird, actually, so I decided not to do it. But yes, I've been in Brussels with the Foreign Secretary
2:16:14
where there were no football shirts worn at all. We did discuss the football, actually
2:16:18
I asked her about those Falklands comments, and she did hit back quite firmly, actually, saying
2:16:23
guys, let's focus on the football, and this has nothing to do... Forget about the international diplomacy
2:16:28
Yeah, exactly. Or, indeed, the future of the Falkland Islands. She said, she told me, she said it's not going to change
2:16:34
She said they are sovereign and it's not going to change. Quite right too. But yes, I did think that the most interesting part of the interview that we did
2:16:41
which was that she was there, I saw her speak and I was in the room while she spoke with the Palestinian president, prime minister
2:16:49
Oh yeah. And they had a discussion and he was incredibly grateful to the Labour government
2:16:54
and he was talking to Uwe Kibbe who he's met before about them designating Palestine as a state
2:16:58
about the work that they're trying to do with the Palestinian donor group. Yesterday, EU leaders committed more than 900 million euros in total
2:17:08
across the Eurozone for this new Palestine fund to try to rebuild Gaza
2:17:12
And lots of work being done behind the scenes about sort of recognition of states
2:17:16
And on the world stage, of course, you've got this rival group as well, Donald Trump's sort of peace board as well
2:17:23
That, James, I think that the word on the street, that seems to be going absolutely nowhere, by the way. What
2:17:28
Donald Trump's Board of Peace is not turning into an incredibly important international body
2:17:35
dedicated to the promotion of peace and welfare across the world and definitely not a vanity project presided over by Donald Trump
2:17:42
Yeah, especially given, obviously, the people on that board. Didn't they have the head of FIFA
2:17:47
Very important people on that board, yeah. Well, honestly, whatever next. Yeah, so Jared Kushner, Trump's son-in-law
2:17:53
appeared on video link at one of the Palestine donor meetings yesterday
2:17:57
which caused a flurry of excitement in the room because that basically was a little bit of a hint
2:18:01
that they're going to essentially fold in behind their EU plans rather than set up their own rival boards
2:18:07
So that was interesting to speak with the Foreign Secretary about. But obviously you'll have been off when this happened
2:18:12
This happened last week, but I'm sure you heard about it. Andy Burnham last week apologised for Labour's initial response
2:18:18
to Israel's military action in Gaza. He said the party didn't get it right
2:18:22
and that we need to do better under his leadership. So this could be a pretty big moment for the Labour Party
2:18:27
a big significant shift in the UK approach towards the Middle East
2:18:31
And we don't know much about Andy Burnham's foreign policy, to be quite honest with you, James. I'm not sure Andy Burnham does either
2:18:36
I'm not sure Andy Burnham does either. We'll get on to that later
2:18:40
But I asked Yvette Cooper, the current Foreign Secretary, we should say, if she agreed with his assessment
2:18:46
of the situation about Gaza. Yeah, I think, look, Andy was right that there were things
2:18:51
especially in the early stages, that we should have done better. But look, the important thing now is that we really focus on the peace process in Gaza, but also the challenges in the West Bank and making sure that the two state solution for Israel and Palestine living alongside each other isn't completely undermined
2:19:12
And I think we're at a real moment of peril at the moment. That's why I'm here today at this meeting with the Palestinian Authority, with international partners
2:19:20
because we have to get new international energy behind the Gaza peace process
2:19:26
make sure that we can get more humanitarian aid and the UK is setting out additional funding today
2:19:31
but also to get the pressure on for the Israeli government to lift the immoral restrictions on aid getting into Gaza
2:19:40
because that is how we will make progress on these basic issues around sanitation and support for people
2:19:47
So that was Yvette Cooper essentially agreeing with that assessment from Andy Burnham And you remember James the backlash that we got on the phones after that interview that Keir Starmer did at the Labour Party conference where he appeared to suggest that he might be willing to support
2:20:01
cutting off aid and food and water to Gaza in the outcome of that
2:20:06
And that got an almighty backlash. It did take a while for Keir Starmer to clarify
2:20:11
that that's not what he'd intended to say and that's not what he meant. but that really damaged lots of community support for the Labour Party
2:20:19
We haven't really gone into much about that in terms of Keir Starmer's legacy, but I do believe that it's a big part of his lack of support in the wider nation
2:20:27
I think is a big part of that, is his position over Israel and Gaza, for sure
2:20:31
Well, it's Pete Keir Starmer, isn't it, getting attacked from one side for going too far
2:20:35
and getting attacked from the other side for not going far enough. Whether or not that's avoidable or whether or not Andy Burnham can negotiate this kind of territory better
2:20:43
remains to be seen. But it might be of interest to people who sort of see themselves as great champions of the Palestinian cause
2:20:51
and simultaneously as great enemies of Keir Starmer. It should be of interest to them that Mohammed Mustafa, who you were with yesterday
2:20:58
the Prime Minister of the first technocratic government in Palestine's history, had only very warm words to say about how the Labour government has handled most elements of this issue
2:21:09
Yes, and you know, you speak to that balance that Sir Keir Starmer was trying to talk about there
2:21:14
You know, obviously he came in and inherited a Labour Party that he claims was riddled with anti-Semitism at the time from Jeremy Corbyn
2:21:20
So he would have been, you know, completely trying to balance that out in his thoughts
2:21:25
And I think that's probably where the entire mess around that LBC interview came from, James
2:21:30
But yes, you're totally right. He had nothing but warm words for the government in terms of their recognition of Palestine as a state and the work that they're doing behind the scenes on this
2:21:38
But obviously Yvette Cooper, interesting character. She obviously knows Andy Burnham from the days where she was serving alongside him when he was health secretary in the Tony Blair years, the Gordon Brown years
2:21:49
And I'm told that she really wants to stay as foreign secretary
2:21:53
There have been discussions potentially West Streeting for the role, potentially another Andy Burnham supporter
2:21:58
But she told me that this was her pitch for the job. We really are at a time of huge global instability
2:22:04
So what my focus continues to be this week, just like every single other week
2:22:09
is on how we strengthen Britain's response to that instability and insecurity
2:22:15
how we make sure we can be a strong country, but also how we work in alliances to shape the world
2:22:21
not just to be passive, but to actually shape the world for the future as well
2:22:25
So would it be a bit of a risk for Andy Burnham to get the new Foreign Secretary, would you say
2:22:29
So ultimately, you know, it's for Andy. But you would make just such a few words, you would like to stay in the province
2:22:34
I'm very much enjoying the work I'm doing. I also think it's really important. But ultimately
2:22:40
what I've always said throughout this process is that we have to make sure that the transition that
2:22:45
takes place is done in the interests of the country and is done in a stable and orderly way
2:22:50
We have seen in the past, even in recent years, and particularly under the Conservatives, we saw
2:22:55
very chaotic political periods and lots of jostling and very tense, difficult situations
2:23:03
That was Yvette Cooper giving me her reasons why she wants to stay as Foreign Secretary
2:23:08
speaking to me in Brussels yesterday. And she sort of talked about the instability aspect. And there is an argument to keep her as Foreign Secretary if indeed we, you know
2:23:15
think that Andy Burnham will potentially want to spend more time within the United Kingdom
2:23:19
You've got somebody who's already been on the world stage for two years that has all these relationships with other people. And there has been talk, as I'm sure you're aware, James
2:23:27
of David Billiband, a potential comeback for him. But there have been reports in the papers
2:23:31
today that actually he's eyeing up the post of ambassador to the United Kingdom in Washington
2:23:37
instead. So that would essentially free up that space potentially for somebody like Yvette
2:23:41
Cooper. So we may see some stability. I think it's unlikely that most of the big jobs will
2:23:46
go to people who are already in government. But that's what I think is possible. What's the calendar? Remind me
2:23:51
It's later this week. Andy Burnham will become Labour leader on Friday
2:23:55
He's not had anyone challenge him, and then he'll become Prime Minister on Monday because basically of issues with the Palace and their shed
2:24:00
I'm glad I asked. Crikey, honestly, I go away for a fortnight, the whole world stops
2:24:04
You would have missed it. So Friday, he becomes Labour leader. He'll have a new Prime Minister on Monday of next week
2:24:09
On Monday, yeah. So that Keir Starmer might be able to go to the World Cup final on Sunday. Admittedly, I should have known that. It's a great failure on my path
2:24:16
I'm told that we have enormous plans. We've got big plans. Will there be much pageantry? Can I do a live commentary
2:24:22
I really hope you will. Oh, happy days. Can I wear my football shirt? No, probably not
2:24:27
It's probably not the day for it, but, you know, we'll be another day. And yes, no, on the screen. So I think that is, can I do some live commentary
2:24:33
Yes. Can I wear my football shirt? No. I think that's fair. So once in a season moment, I think, me unveiling the new Kidder Mr. Herrier's home strip
2:24:40
which, of course, you'll be able to see at Horn Church on August the 8th, a mere 37 stops on the district line for me to get to an away game
2:24:49
But I digress. Thank you, Natasha. And thank you for fitting us in as well
2:24:54
because I know you were very, very busy yesterday. You got back very, very late. What happens on Monday
2:25:00
Is there a kind of anointment? Yes, basically what I think is going to happen
2:25:05
is that Keir Starmer will essentially be... Sorry, Sheila Fugarty is making some noises
2:25:10
Anointment. Yes, an anointment. Anointing. Oh, hello. Anointment just had me rubbing things on..
2:25:15
Are you making the pitch for your commentary? Anointment. No, no, no. We always do it together if it coincides anyway
2:25:21
I want anointment. Bring me anointment. I need anointment, are you? Oh, you're quite right, Sheila
2:25:26
I'm sorry, Natasha. It's an anointing. It's an anointing. You're an anointing
2:25:30
I've just anointed you. That feels unfair. Dad jokes already. There will be a handover though on Monday
2:25:35
So, you know, Kirstam will probably give a few words. They will be here in a minute. I was going to do that
2:25:39
I was going to do that, honestly. I can't even, I can't get through the end of the sentence, guys
2:25:44
I'm so sorry. Give this me. It's like Canada and Mould ever left us
2:25:48
We will see a change of Prime Minister on Monday. There'll be a little swap in and swap out
2:25:52
and so an anointing. And PMQs tomorrow, the last one for a while. Final Prime Minister's questions with Sakeir Starmer
2:25:58
That's it, I think. And that's all. Great stuff. Thank you, Natasha. If you missed any of today's show
2:26:02
you can listen back on our free Global Flare app or the LBC app, where you can also stay up to date
2:26:06
with all the latest news videos and opinions. You can listen to a range of podcasts, including James O'Brien Daily and Full Disclosure
2:26:12
So download the official LBC app for free from your app store now
2:26:16
Don't tell him I told you, but Simon Marks was wearing one of the nattiest Panama hats
2:26:21
that I've ever seen when he strolled into the office yesterday. He'll be with you at four, standing in for Tom Swarbrick
2:26:25
but now it's time for Sheila Fogarty. James O'Brien on LBC

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