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Nigel Farage could be set to run against just one other candidate, Count Binface, after all other major political parties confirmed they would not field candidates in the Clacton-on-Sea by-election. On Iain Dale's Cross Question panel (from left to right): Lib Dem Lisa Smart, the Guardian's Zoe Williams, former Tory minister Justine Greening and political commentator Benedict Spence. It comes after yesterday the Reform leader sensationally quit as MP and vowed to fight a "people versus establishment" by-election in the Essex seat amid a row over his finances and a parliamentary investigation. Farage denies any wrongdoing in the row over undeclared gifts and donations he received before he was elected. Farage also said Reform UK will foot the bill for the by-election but last night, the Ministry for Housing, Communities and Local Government (MHCLG) told LBC that the move would be illegal. Now, Labour, the Lib Dems, the Conservatives, the Greens and Rupert Lowe’s Restore Britain have agreed not to put up candidates labelling the by-election as a "circus" - meaning his only confirmed challenger so far is the satirical candidate Count Binface. Comedian Jon Harvey, who regularly runs in by-elections, including the Makerfield by-election with Andy Burnham under the pseudonym, has confirmed he will run. Labour accused Farage of "desperately trying to change the subject". "It's pathetic, and the Labour Party is not going to indulge it," a spokesperson said. "Farage should let the parliamentary investigation into his finances run its course and face the consequences." The Prime Minister said: "This is a desperate stunt from Nigel Farage. Politics should be about improving the lives of millions of people, not about personal gain." Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #ukpolitics #iaindale #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Well, my question to the panel is, do they, like I, think that the real reason that none of the other parties are fielding candidates in this by-election is because they fear losing and it'll be a big Nigel Farage victory and they fear being totally humiliated
0:13
Lisa Smart, you're a chicken. Not on this. I don't think so. Look, this is attention-seeking behaviour. And when toddlers misbehave, you do not reward them by giving them lots of attention
0:24
I am genuinely livid that another MP is deciding that the people who elected him not very long ago to represent them are not worth finishing the job
0:36
It is a massive privilege to be an MP, to be elected to represent your community and to just give that up for your own personal reasons
0:43
to try and avoid the scrutiny of a parliamentary standards investigation, to try and get away from what is possibly a future by-election
0:53
caused by the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner finding against him, I think is unforgivable
1:00
Was your ire as deeply felt when Josh Simons was signed as MP for Makerfield
1:06
Yeah, and that's why I'm continuing to be livid, because I was very cross
1:10
You're in a permanent state of divisiveness. No, I am. This is yet another example. And all the people who are doing this, I'm afraid, are men who think that it's a gift
1:20
Oh, come off it. Don't come. Well, I was very... My quote at the time, when Josh Simons resigned to give Makerfield to Andy Burnham, my quote was
1:34
the arrogance from these men to think a parliamentary seat is a gift that they can just give to their
1:39
friend, I'm livid about that. Because the people of the seat of Clarton will need a good MP
1:46
because he hasn't solved child poverty, he hasn't fixed our education system. Social care
1:51
is still in dire need of reform, but I haven't caused a by-election, I'm still working on it. No
1:57
I haven't fixed social care, nor has the government who's elected to work on this stuff
2:01
I think you get more done by actually doing the job that you've been elected to do
2:06
And I think stepping away from your responsibilities to try and step away from the scrutiny
2:10
I think Farage is the one who's the chicken, not the parties who are not giving in the attention that a naughty toddler is asking for
2:17
Benedict? I agree. It's supposed to be a privilege to be an elected member of Parliament representing a constituency
2:25
I don't think a lot of MPs always fulfil their role, but it's meant to be
2:28
But I also think if we're going to go down the whole, oh, it's a disgrace to democracy thing, you should also possibly give people the option whenever the option is presented to them to put your case to them
2:39
And whilst I don't think that all of the parties are running scared necessarily of Nigel Farage and Clacton, I do think that it doesn't present very well
2:47
if what you're saying to the country is that the only reason you're not standing
2:52
and you're not going to provide the people of Clacton with your agenda
2:56
is because of Nigel Farage, because then you're still actually giving in to him, ultimately. You can say, we don't want to give him any attention
3:01
He's going to get the attention either way. He's the head of an incredibly popular party
3:06
somehow doing incredibly well in the polls. The press are going to be all over him for the entirety of the by-election period
3:13
So just saying, oh, well, we're not going to be playing that game, sorry, he's kind of called the tune on that
3:17
Now, I happen to think that he's judged this pretty badly. But still, that is what is happening
3:23
And if you then turn around and you say, well, no, sorry, people of Clacton, you don't get the choice to vote Labour or whoever it might be
3:29
I don't think they're going to particularly thank you for that. And what I would also say is, you know, especially having heard Kimmy Bader not coming out and say, you know, that he's had a hissy fit and that she's not going to be sort of dancing to his tune
3:40
this is another example of a by-election where effectively the Tories are turning around and
3:45
saying, well, there's not much point in us putting any effort in because we're going to lose. And yet at the same time, we're supposed to believe that they're on the up, that they're
3:52
resurgent, that they're going to take on reform. So, well, there are only three points behind reform. Yeah. But if you only stand, you only put the effort into seats where reform aren't
4:00
doing particularly well. So we had this in Makefield, we had this in Gordon and Denton, and we had this in Cofilly as well, where they lost their deposits every single time. That
4:07
That doesn't happen to parties that are on the up. And they can turn around and say, oh, but we did fantastically well in Aberdeen because we were the only party that didn't promise to shut down the oil industry
4:16
You can't really replicate that across the country. So Farage, I think, has massively misjudged this
4:21
Do I think it's going to cost him his seat? No, but I do think it makes him look a little bit ridiculous. There's a big movement for Count Bimface, according to our callers in the last hour
4:29
I should point that out. Do you know what? It'll be very entertaining if that does happen because that's a classic sort of, well, are we going to vote for the sort of the protest party
4:36
Irony being, once upon a time, reform were the protest party. But..
4:40
Once upon a time, the Liberal Democrats were the protest party. But I'm hearing so many politicians coming around, and, you know, Rupert Lowe has done this
4:46
and a couple of Tories have hinted that this is well to say, well, we're going to stand when there's the proper by-election, when there's another by-election
4:52
because there's going to be more that comes out. At which point, a lot of people in Clouton might well turn around and go
4:57
well, if you knew that there was other stuff coming out, why didn't you run the first time? Actually, why did you put us through that whole farce
5:02
Why didn't you challenge him from the off? Why have you sat out and waited for him to be a little bit damaged
5:07
and given him the opportunity to then turn around and go, it's a conspiracy because all of them, all of them are deciding
5:12
they're all in cahoots, they're all not going to get involved. How can you distinguish between Labour and the Tories
5:17
and all these other parties if they just decide they're not going to play the game? That helps him and it actually makes it less likely
5:22
that you unseat him if there is a subsequent violation. Zoe Williams. I'm going to do that thing where I annoy everybody
5:28
but the question doesn't make sense. The question doesn't make sense and the answers don't make sense either
5:36
The other parties aren't scared of Nigel Farage winning that seat. He's already got that seat
5:40
It's not a terror for them. Oh, my gosh, what if Nigel Farage wins? I can't possibly take him on in case he is victorious
5:47
They don't want to fight it because it's, as you said, attention seeking
5:51
But they also don want to fight it because if down the line he is found to have breached parliamentary standards which looks extremely likely there will have to be another by if he the sitting MP Well there won It depends on the punishment and it depends on whether 10 of his constituents sign a petition calling for one
6:09
Nevertheless, the point will be that it won't be their call whether there's another by-election should he win and then take back the seat that he already had
6:18
It won't be anybody else's call whether they have to call that again
6:22
And it would be ridiculous to taint themselves now by joining in his force when it's such an obvious attempt to dodge scrutiny
6:33
There's nothing else behind it. It's not even he's a toddler and he's having a tantrum
6:38
He doesn't want the scrutiny that is coming his way. And you can see it in all his appearances
6:44
You know, it's kind of rage events. Like everything is a rage event for him now
6:48
And he's doing that thing that people do when they're in the wrong
6:52
that they just come out like a scorpion. But it's not going to fly, I don't think
6:56
And I don't think it's... I mean, it's nice that Martin's really loyal to him
7:01
but a lot of people... Sorry, who's Martin? Martin in Rotherhithe. Oh, right, sorry
7:06
Who else was Martin? Sorry, I thought you were calling Benedict Martin for a moment. All right, fair enough
7:11
No, if Benedict was loyal to Nigel, I would have a thing or two to say
7:15
No, look, it's nice that he's got this hardcore. That's what, like, Keir Starmer never had
7:19
was a hardcore of people who'd support him, whatever happened. But that hardcore isn't very big
7:25
You can listen to the Vox Pops already. It's interesting. We had to call her in the last hour, Daniel Ingolders Green
7:31
who was a reformed supporter. And I had a few of these last week when we were talking about
7:37
the £220,000 money that he's got for being a brand ambassador called Bullion
7:45
Reformed supporters, some of them, I'm not saying this is a torrent, but some of them are becoming slightly disillusioned with their leader
7:52
Yeah, that's what I heard. They were vox popping on the BBC earlier. And people who supported him, I mean, it's extraordinary to me, but there are people who voted for him thinking he was actually going to work for his constituents and make the changes that he promised. I can't believe anybody really thought that. I thought they were just performing it, but they did think that and they're not impressed at all
8:13
Justine Greening. And I think this is so first of all, how depressing for democracy that we're going to end up with an important by election and the only choices are apparently going to be Nigel Farage and Count Minface
8:26
I'm making a serious point here. And there's no point criticizing Nigel Farage, as you both have done, and then not putting anyone up against him when it's a genuine election with real voters
8:42
It's not a genuine election. It's a fake election. No, it's not. Designed to distract attention from the scrutiny that he deserves
8:48
It's not a real... What democratic purpose does it serve? It's electing an MP
8:54
A guy who's already elected. Hang on, hang on. Let's just finish my point. It's real people with real concerns, real votes
9:02
electing a real MP. And it is pointless sitting in this lovely London radio studio
9:08
chatting about it. and then when the actual fight, political fight happens in Clacton
9:15
oh, we're like, oh, no, I don't think we should really participate. It's just a stunt. No, it's not
9:19
It's called democracy. It's not called democracy. No, this is democracy. It's a by-election
9:24
And frankly, parties that subcontract from fighting a by-election, you know, shouldn't complain if then Nigel Farage wins
9:32
and, as Benedict says, comes back in a couple of months' time saying, what's the point
9:36
They've already elected me. This is a farce. And actually, it will seem like a farce
9:39
And I think if people want to present an alternative to Nigel Farage, it just seems to me pointless to not take this opportunity to say he's not been a very good MP
9:49
He's not done much in Parliament. Look at his standards. Look at what's going on with his finances
9:54
Why not hold him to account? Well, because he's being held to account right now, which is why he's called this by-election
10:00
You don't need the ballot box. You need parliamentary standards. Why would you not use the ballot box
10:05
Come on. No, but answer my question. Why would you not use the ballot box in a democracy
10:10
My answer to your question is the contraventions he's made are to parliamentary rules
10:15
and it's for parliamentary standards to uphold them. It's not to go back to the ballot box and say
10:19
how popular am I now? Do you like the look of my suit? That's ridiculous
10:24
This is a performance. It's got nothing to do with his performance as an MP
10:28
But are the other parties making it a performance by doing exactly, I think, what he probably predicted
10:33
which is that no one's going to stand, then he's going to make, he's offered to pay for this by-election
10:40
so he's going to say, well, it didn't need to cost anything, and then what's going to happen is he's going to get
10:44
the parliamentary standards judgment. That may say that he needs to fight a by-election
10:50
He's just going to say, well, I've already done one of those. Nobody's still against me
10:54
Back in 2008, when David Davis calls to by-election over civil liberties
10:58
my recollection was that the Guardian was all in favour of him doing that, to make a point
11:03
You cannot hold me responsible for the editorial of The Guardian 18 years ago
11:09
Maybe you wrote a column. No, I'm not a leader writer. I know that you're a columnist and you write opinion pieces
11:16
And I can imagine you thinking that it was a really good thing that David Davis did. That's outrageous
11:20
Ian, that's actually really bad faith. You're looking me in the eye and saying, I can imagine you thinking that's a really good idea
11:26
I'm just asking you whether you think it was or not. I can imagine you thinking it's a really good idea for ABBA to reform
11:31
You know, it actually would. And that would burnish your reputation. The only way there's a by-election, you can't actually resign as an MP
11:41
You have to be appointed to a paid Crown position. So it's a decision for the government to appoint him or not
11:47
The government may choose to wait for the conclusion of the parliamentary standards process And then after that process is concluded they may then But that would play into his hands wouldn it But it an option I just talking about the process Your party president Josh Babarindi was sitting in that seat about 40 minutes ago
12:04
and he said exactly the same thing. And I wasn't sure whether he was joking or not, because I think if that happened, I mean, that would add fuel to Nigel Farage's fire
12:12
I agree, but it is an option. It's a decision that government will need to take. I mean, I really think you're underestimating how bad he looks to the people who voted for him
12:22
I'm not saying you should have done that one way or another. And it's going to be an act of democracy
12:27
And that's the good thing, is that actually if the people of Clouton go, we really dislike you, we'll pick the man with a bin on his head
12:32
Well, OK, then he looks like an even bigger idiot than before. But the point is, if what you're saying is that what he's doing is acting in bad faith by taking this step
12:40
It doesn't mean that you can then turn around and go, well, the process by which we select politicians in this country doesn't apply in this case
12:49
And we can just take our ball and go home. You know, you have to sort of meet him on good in good faith, even if he's doing it in bad faith
12:55
And that's where I think a lot of people will turn around. And all the whole shtick about reform has been we're not like the other politicians
13:02
We're not like them. We're going to do things slightly differently. What you could say, at the very least, about this is he has actually decided I'm going to try and call their bluff on this
13:10
If the response from all the other parties at the same time is to go, no, we're not playing, then he can again turn around and go, well, see, they're not doing it
13:17
But Benedict, that's what you were saying already. At the very least, one of them
13:21
One of them should have the gumption to take a stand, I think. So I fought Putney four times and I won four times
13:29
Two of those elections, I got 54% of the vote. Would it have been better for people in my community
13:34
and me if there'd been it's arguably clear that I was going to win would it have been better
13:40
for those elections if everyone else had thought oh what's the point Justine's gonna win
13:45
that's a complete that's the worst ogy I've ever heard on this show you're making the point
13:51
that just because he's going to win and that's this competition just because he's going to win
13:56
that somehow he shouldn't be held to account everybody should be held to account no it's not
13:59
because he's going to win it's because it's stupid let's go to robin in whitehaven hello robin
14:05
hello ian my question is is it time for reform to elect a new leader
14:12
okay um i mean there was a thought that nigel farage might be quitting politics altogether
14:20
today and then they would have had to but that's clearly not the case benedict spence
14:24
It is a it's an interesting question because, you know, reform were nowhere until Farage came back to front line politics and he's sort of taken them thus far
14:33
But he was always a politician that I think had a very firm ceiling on what it was that he could achieve
14:39
The difficulty with moving him on, so to speak, and finding somebody else's who else is there
14:45
And, you know, I think Reforma in a very in this sort of nascent period where they're still trying to find their feet
14:52
And, you know, lots of people still aren't quite sure about them, frankly, beyond Nigel Farage
14:56
And you've got the whole thing of former Tories sort of joining them and people actually leaving Reforma off the back of Tories joining them and going, well, actually, what is this party
15:05
What does it stand for? Does it really represent me? Are we going to set up some sort of splinter thing to try and sort of hamstring them in other places
15:11
It's a very difficult moment, I think, for them to try and switch horses. He, I don't think, I don't want to make him sound like Moses
15:19
It's not going to be like he takes them to the promised land. He might be able to see the promised land and go, it's that way
15:24
But I don't think he's likely to be prime minister. I tried not to, but it was the best ogy I could think of
15:30
Who that person is, if it ever happens, I don't know. You just sort of have to look at the array of people and go, Richard Tice, nice guy
15:38
Does he quite have it? No. That's why ultimately Faraj had to come back in the first place
15:43
Zia Yusuf, increasingly confident, intelligent. Does he quite have it? No. Does he have the name recognition
15:49
No. Robert Jenrick has the name recognition, certainly, to a point. Is he beloved
15:54
But not in a good way. Well, exactly. Is he beloved? Not really. A lot of people left off the back of him and other people joining because they deemed him too much for Tory
16:02
So that's the problem, really, is that you have got this figure that has done pretty well
16:07
I think nobody could dispute that reform have done pretty well, given where they were to where they are now
16:12
can he actually get them over the threshold you don't know until you try i i'm not sure he can
16:18
but is there actually anybody better underneath yet i don't think reform is established enough
16:23
and i think when we see when they stand at by elections the caliber of the candidates that
16:27
they put forward i had this conversation actually with zeus for a couple of years ago which was
16:31
actually what you have is a golden opportunity to change how it is political parties go about
16:36
recruiting the people that you put forward. It doesn't appear to me that they have done it in a
16:42
particularly sound way. It looks a little bit slapdash. It's either, oh, this guy's big on
16:46
Twitter. Oh, this guy's a plumber. And the last by-election we lost to a plumber, that might work
16:51
People on Twitter, they're popular. Or maybe not everybody has Twitter in this constituency. It
16:56
still looks as though it's a work in progress. So is this the moment to change leader? I'd say
17:00
probably not. Do I think long-term he's going to be the guy? Again, probably not. Justine
17:05
Of course it's not the moment change leader because he's just about to win a by-election that nobody else contests
17:10
and if we'd been here about a month ago you could take out the word reform
17:15
is it time for reform to elect a new leader and substitute Labour
17:19
and the answer to that would have been in the result of the make-full by-election
17:23
which of course Ian, as we know wasn't always in doubt we didn't know whether Andy Burnham would win or not
17:29
we thought he might lose to reform who knew he could lose to a plumber
17:33
But the point is, there was a contest. And I actually think that Andy Burnham came out of that
17:40
strengthened because he'd won a tough by-election. And I think it changed the dynamic within the
17:47
Labour Party the credibility I can understand why having won in Makerfield and then said that you are someone that can do this Manchesterism in the whole country
18:01
why wouldn't you want to say to Farage, OK, then, let's have a discussion with people in Clapton
18:08
who face many of the same challenges. Bear in mind that Andy Burnham is not the leader yet
18:14
He's likely to be, though. Yeah, he is, but he couldn't have made this decision today
18:18
The administration, maybe not, but I'm sure his view would have countered
18:23
But the point is, I think it feels like you've got one by-election
18:28
where Labour run towards it and obviously it's important. And another, with actually constituents facing comparable issues
18:35
I've just been told in my ear that LBC understands, a phrase I hate, but LBC understands that Andy Burnham
18:40
was consulted over this decision. Well, he made a wrong decision. I think Labour should get in there like the other parties and make their case
18:46
But that doesn't answer this question, which is whether Nigel Farage should be replaced as leader. And that, I mean, I would have to be a lot better at reformology to know if there was somebody really snapping at his heels and like somebody plausible. And if there were, I would be worried. And maybe I should be worried
19:10
Why? Why? Well, you know, the good thing about Nigel Farage is also the terrible thing about Nigel Farage, which is he gets he gets the wind in his sails
19:18
But then he's so obnoxious that it puts everybody off and it happens time and time again
19:23
And it's like if you found a Nigel Farage who was less obnoxious, then people who despise reformist politics would be more worried than they are
19:34
I'm so tempted to. But I won't. Lisa. So I, whenever any of us gets asked about other parties' leadership, we always do that thing where we go, well, that's very much a matter for the members of reform
19:45
I think Robert Jenrick as a member of reform would be delighted if there were a competition for the new leader
19:52
But Farage does something that none of the rest can do. And others have said he, so I am wholly opposed to almost everything he stands for
20:00
but he is a good communicator. And despite his background, despite everything he's done in life
20:07
he is able to come across as somebody who a certain sort of person
20:12
thinks they would enjoy spending time with. Or that he says things that they are waiting
20:18
You laugh, but he is actually bloody good company. No, no, no, I was just laughing. You'd get on like a house on fire with him
20:23
Ian, I've met Nigel Farage loads and loads of times. Well, there you are. I'm right, aren't I
20:27
Since he was, like, exploding his testicles on John Pienaar. What? You remember when he did that very warts-and-all memoir
20:36
and then he talked about it in enormous... I published it. Oh, yeah, you did. See, I've been around the block too with him
20:46
I mean, I'm not under any doubt about the fact that he can charm some people
20:52
most of them journalists, some of the time. The reason I was laughing is that, you know, despite everything, well, your kind of implication was that actually who he was, it would be impossible to have drinking with him, which I completely agree with
21:06
I was just amused. But he is able to connect with some people and they think I quite like him
21:10
I quite like what he says. What I think I agree with comments others have made, people don't like the fact that he's a grifter, that he's done 16, he's declared 16 jobs in addition to being an MP since he got elected two years ago
21:27
The 200 and I can't remember the exact amount, 20 grand for being a brand ambassador for Gold Bullion
21:34
People want their MPs to be doing the job of an MP. And not everybody has the same idea of what that is
21:40
not everybody wants advice surgeries on a Saturday morning at the community centre
21:44
but people want their MPs to do their job, not 16 of their jobs
21:48
I think it goes deeper than that. He is a party leader. And if you are a member of a political party, Justin, you'll know this
21:54
you want to see your leader devote all their attentions to winning power
21:59
And clearly, Nigel Farage is not doing that at the moment. I mean, can you imagine if David Cameron or Kemi Badenoch had done this sort of thing
22:08
I mean, Conservative Party members would have been outraged. And I think the Reform Party members are starting to be a little bit irritated
22:15
I would say, recalling when David Davis called this by-election, I was a very new Tory MP at the time, and a lot of MPs were just furious with him
22:25
It felt really self-indulgent. People were going to have to do lots of travelling
22:29
Well, I was his vicar on earth, and I was furious. And people wanted to be doing other stuff
22:33
So I'm sure there's part of, you know, there'll be people in Reform
22:37
who just think this is the last thing they need. At the same time, what lies behind all of this
22:42
and the reason sometimes I think he is someone that can resonate with a political zeitgeist
22:49
is because you've always got this contradiction in a way. He's talking about problems that people feel
22:58
no politicians ever actually get round to fixing and they've lost trust with the political system
23:05
in fixing them. And again, this is why I think it's wrong to contract out of this by-election
23:10
What someone like Andy Burnham was doing in Makefield, and I wrote an article in The Guardian, interestingly, that was positive about the good growth in every postcode
23:19
That was talking about solutions. It was talking about devolution. It was talking about the role of business
23:25
It was a lot of the stuff that I obsess over on how to drive social mobility
23:30
I think the weakness of Farage and reform is it's too much about problems, but not about solutions
23:37
So why lose the opportunity to have a debate about problems versus solutions
23:43
I agree on the solutions. I would love to have a separate debate about how Manchesterism isn't actually easy
23:47
We are going to have a separate debate, but on something else in just a few moments time, because we need the news headlines
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