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Pakistan is refusing to take back Rochdale grooming gang leader Shabir Ahmed, accused of 30 child rape offences, claiming Britain is where he was "spoiled". Ahmed, 73, was released from prison two weeks ago after serving 14 years of a 22-year prison sentence for raping children as young as 12. 00:00 | Tom Swarbrick is joined by solicitor Alan Collins, who says Britain has 'wasted 30 years' to deal with this matter, as grooming gangs have been known of 'since the 1990s'. 03:58 | Lawyer Sailesh Mehta believes there are at least three hurdles in the way of Shabir's deportation. 07:15 | Listener Flav is 'in despair' about the amount of foreign aid being sent to Pakistan in spite of this situation. 08:12 | Caller Jane in Camden thinks the assault of women and girls 'is not taken seriously at all'. 09:39 | Callers Lucien and Kylie both feel that if Pakistan should take Shabir Ahmed back, then 'we should take Shamima Begum back'. 13:00 | Caller Natalie thinks Britain is 'getting a taste of its own medicine' after not taking Shamima Begum back. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #lbc #tomswarbrick #shabirahmed #pakistan #crimenews #crime #police #uk #uknews #ukpolitics #migration #immigration #deportation LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Alan Collins is a partner of the law firm Bolt Burden Kemp, who represents survivors of child sexual abuse
0:06
Thank you very much indeed for coming on the programme, Alan. I wonder what you make of those quite extraordinary comments, actually, from the Pakistani Foreign Office spokesperson
0:17
Well, they've got a point. Because we, the UK, have created this problem
0:25
and political gestures are not going to solve this heinous problem
0:38
And it's a problem that will probably repeat itself. I think the chickens are coming home to roost
0:42
because in recent years we've seen a series of high-profile convictions of people like the defendant Ahmed
0:52
And there's going to be similar cases, I suspect, and the UK government, UK politicians
0:59
have got to take a long, hard look because the Pakistani government has got a point
1:04
And I'm not at all surprised that Pakistan is taking this stance
1:09
Their attitude is going to be, why should we take this sex offender
1:14
You can understand that. We can understand that. Alan, when you say Britain is responsible for creating this problem
1:21
what do you mean by that? In what way? Number one, I don't think we really got behind why we have these grooming cases
1:33
We are going to hopefully have this inquiry that was belatedly set up by the government
1:39
Whether it will get behind all of this or not remains to be seen, because politicians have skirted around it for far too long
1:45
and chickens are coming home to roost. Lots of children and young people have been subjected to serial sexual abuse
1:52
by these grooming gangs. It's an absolute scandal. And I think that the general public are aware of that
1:59
Mr Collins, if we are saying, on the one hand, we don't know why this happened, we haven't got to the bottom of it
2:05
how can we then say that Britain created it? Because this man should not have been released early
2:12
and he should not be out and about. I totally agree with you, but that doesn't explain
2:17
why you think Britain created the problem for which he was convicted. Well, we're going to have this inquiry
2:24
which hopefully will get behind a lot of the problems. I agree, but how can you say that Britain created this problem
2:31
Because it's avoided addressing grooming gangs for far too long. That's the issue
2:38
This is not a new subject. Way back in the 1990s, the powers that be were aware of these problems in some of our cities
2:47
There was indeed media coverage, and we've wasted, in my opinion, the last 30 years
2:53
And politicians have had 30 years to get to grips with all of this
2:58
and one of the issues is what do you do with these offenders
3:01
if they're convicted and then they are going to be released? Because it doesn't take a genius to work out..
3:08
Well, hang on a minute. If we're going to release these people, where are they going to go
3:12
Yes, I understand. It's all very well with pouring their citizenship. It's not a culture created in Britain
3:16
It's not a British national pastime to allow this stuff to happen
3:23
The people responsible for this are the people who are doing it Well that is part of the story but you can just look at these things in isolation Many of these children and young people who were sexually exploited by these criminals
3:36
were known to the powers that be. They were allowed to fall off the radar
3:43
They were extremely vulnerable and they were exploited in the worst possible way
3:47
So in that sense, I agree with you. Appreciate your time. Thank you for coming on
3:52
Alan Collins is partner of the law firm Bolt Burden Kemp, representing survivors of child
3:56
sexual abuse. Silo Shmetu is a criminal in human rights law. Thank you very much indeed for coming
4:00
on. It's going to be incredibly difficult for the British government to send this man back to
4:05
Pakistan, certainly given those comments from the Pakistani government. I suspect it is. There are
4:11
three hurdles that the Home Secretary would have to get over in a case of this sort. The first one
4:17
she's already succeeded in, the deprivation of citizenship. She's already decided that his
4:23
presence in this country is not conducive to the public good. He is therefore no longer a British
4:28
national, is a Pakistani national. First hurdle sorted. The next two hurdles, the difficulties
4:34
one is legal, that there's an old relic of old legislation that allows him to remain
4:40
and the Home Secretary is threatening to legislate to get rid of that so that the hurdle is lowered
4:46
But the most difficult hurdle for her will be the political one, because clearly from the comments that you've just read out, the Pakistani government does not want to take him back
4:56
And that's really the politics of the matter. And if the politics of the matter are that they are at loggerheads, despite apparent negotiations, this man, we also think, is probably going to test through the courts whether or not he is legally allowed to be deported
5:13
How long could that take? um certainly that as far as the legislation is concerned that can be dealt with fairly quickly
5:22
the deportation aspect to take away what some lawyers would say is a loophole so that would
5:27
be the easy part the much more difficult part is then persuading the receiving government
5:31
the pakistani government to accept it that's a problem in every deportation case usually it's
5:37
done by a negotiation or treaty and we don't have an extradition treaty with pakistan is that right
5:42
not one that will allow them to take him back if they don't want to um the pakistani government is
5:49
right isn't it to say that the i'm quoting here the government of pakistan has no connection
5:54
whatsoever with this matter that's that's true as a as a matter of fact it's true unless one says
6:02
that well because mr ahmed is now a pakistani citizen then of course there is still that
6:08
connection with the Pakistani state. But as far as where the offending occurred, the length of time
6:14
that Mr. Ahmed's been in this country, there is some justification in the Pakistani government
6:19
being reluctant to take back a convicted serial offender. Really appreciate your time. Thank you
6:25
for coming on. Silas Mehta is criminal and human rights lawyer. In strict terms, parts of this
6:32
statement is right. The Pakistani government has no connection whatsoever with this matter. We
6:36
cannot they say be associated with any decisions relating to the individual's release or subsequent treatment under British law
6:42
They're not going to take him back. Meanwhile we sending 153 million pounds in foreign aid to a country that we at loggerheads with about whether or not they would take him back And the visas keep going and etc When the Pakistani government say this is actually a time for the United Kingdom to introspect rather than to search for
7:02
extraneous causes, other reasons for why this happened, do you think that's fair
7:10
Do you think that's true? Or be it difficult to hear? Is Flav in Barnet
7:17
Tom, I threw my hands up in the air in despair when I heard that the UK government has just signed off 153 million pounds in aid to Pakistan
7:26
Why didn't we pause those payments until the man had been deported
7:30
This is Shabir Ahmed, the leader of the Rochdale grooming gang. It's a very good question
7:35
Pakistan is a nuclear armed nation. Do they need 153 quid? I mean, 153 million pounds isn't going to make a blind bit of difference, I would have thought
7:45
in a country of that size with, in some parts, that relative wealth
7:50
why are we doing it? OK, well, it's a soft power tool, isn't it
7:54
You know, it's not going to make an amount to a hill of beans financially
7:58
but it's a soft power tool about relations between... Well, how's that going? Because now we've got a Pakistani senior foreign affairs spokesperson saying
8:05
sorry, Britain, it's your fault that this man committed these crimes. We've got nothing to do with it
8:12
03456060973. Jane's in Camden. Jane. Hi, Tom. How are you doing? Yeah, good. I wonder what you make of these comments
8:18
Yeah, I mean, I think that the Pakistani government have a fair point. I don't think in this country that the government has ever taken assault against women seriously at all
8:29
So, you know, it's literally just been... But these are children. I mean, it's not even women, I'm afraid. Yeah, yeah, no, no. Absolutely
8:35
I mean, I think it's just open season on women and children, as you say
8:39
You're absolutely right. so they have a point and even now it's demonstrating
8:45
that the government can't get to grips with this I mean quite frankly
8:49
they should just turn around and say fair enough you won't take him back we won't be giving you any further contributions
8:55
any more financial aid and actually all the visas and everything we're going to stop it's not just about just sending him back
9:00
it's also about sending a message to the rest of them that want to kind of do that
9:06
they come over here and they want to do that that basically you will be sent back
9:10
Why do Pakistan send us? I mean, you know, we are a nuclear power, as they are
9:17
Our economy is probably in slightly better shape than theirs. We have much less absolute poverty in this country
9:23
than they do in Pakistan. But do we get anything? No? All right, OK, well, if it's all one way
9:27
we'll just knock it on the head then. 153 million quid doesn't buy you anything, really
9:32
in terms of the scale of the country of Pakistan. Why are we bothering with this
9:39
Lucian's in Manchester. Hi, Lucian. Hi, Tom. Good morning. Look, curious about your last few callers, in actual fact
9:48
They seem to be putting the onus on this country. Pakistan's statement seems to say that because of our culture
9:57
because women are free and equal to everybody and entitled to wear what they want
10:04
that some reason that this person is, you know, we've corrupted this person
10:10
Well, he didn't come from Pakistan uncorrupted in the beginning. And in any case, I mean, it has nothing to do with Windrush
10:19
as the man was saying that we the ones who have failed We failed to stop it but we didn create this monster and we shouldn have to pay for this monster He should go back
10:30
He does have a passport. Your last caller was misinformed. He does have a passport
10:35
and he does have a nationality, and it's Pakistani, and he should be sent back
10:39
I mean, I can't see why we're going to be giving Pakistan 130-odd million pounds
10:47
I don't think we should be giving Pakistani, because like you said, they have got nuclear weapons and stuff
10:51
I don't know why we're giving them aid. However, if you think that Pakistan should take him back
10:58
then we should take the girl that went over to Syria back
11:03
Shamima Begum. Yeah, because she wasn't born anywhere else. She was born here
11:08
Her parents might be Bangladeshi. She's never lived in Bangladesh. She's our problem
11:12
She's a British citizen. That's right. Lucian? Yeah, I would like to say also
11:17
my understanding of Pakistan law, is that if you rape, you're going to spend the rest of your life
11:22
in the disgusting hole in the ground. And if you gang rape, it's a death penalty
11:28
I come from a smaller town, and in that small town, I personally, by name, know 14 predators
11:35
that have been arrested and sent to prison. 13 of them are men. One of them is a mixed-race man, the rest are white men
11:42
and one is a white woman. There are predators everywhere, and our country needs to get a grip of this
11:49
Would you say that there is something inherent about Britain or British culture, British identity, that means that those people are the predators that they are? Because I don't think so
12:02
I don't think it's a British thing. I don't think it's a British thing. I think I personally, and I know you're a guy and I know the other guy is a guy and I apologise
12:09
I think this is a culture of how everyone treats their sons, how they raise their sons
12:16
And I think we need to do better as a society to raise our sons to respect women
12:21
I don't think it's an Asian thing. I don't think it's a white thing. I don't think it's a black thing. All this focusing on about all the grooming gangs, the grooming gangs, the grooming gangs
12:30
But there's predators everywhere. They're absolutely everywhere. It's really scary. As a woman, as a woman and as a mother of two daughters, it's a scary thing
12:39
We didn't create that monster because we allow our young women in this country to wear and
12:45
be out and visible. I think to some extent that is what maybe might be an implication of what the Pakistani
12:53
foreign spokesperson is suggesting, that we created the problem, Britain created the problem
12:58
You're just getting a taste of your own medicine because Jimmy and Begum was your responsibility
13:04
yet you don't want to take it back. Britain, yeah. you expect the Pakistani government to take their own man back
13:12
And yet you've got to cheat to be threatening them with aid. It's universal
13:17
It's just like what goes around comes around. So it's sort of a karmic, this is karma
13:22
Yeah. Well, Natalie, I think there's a question about whether or not we should be sending Pakistan aid anyway, regardless of this issue
13:29
Again, they've got nukes, you know, they spend a lot of money on defence. They've got an army
13:33
Do we really need to be sending them this money? If we're sending them this money because it's a soft power tool, a diplomatic lever, then pull it because it's not working, is it, in order to get what the British government want
13:43
We have the right, the British government has the right to make laws that says we're going to deport people if they've got dual nationality for certain crimes
13:49
This is one of them. I think the British government should try very hard to exercise that right
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