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Nicola Sturgeon hits back at JK Rowling and opens up on her resignation and marriage
Aug 24, 2025
JK Rowling is 'punching down on trans people', Nicola Sturgeon has told LBC - after the author left a scathing review of her new memoir.
The former First Minister and leader of the SNP spoke with Iain Dale about her new book 'Frankly' on Thursday evening.
The Harry Potter author has been a long-time critic of Ms Sturgeon and her views on gender self-ID.
She previously accused her of being "flat out Trumpian in her shameless denial of reality and hard facts" on issues relating to trans and women's rights.
In her near-3000-word review, published on her own website, the billionaire author accused the former first minister, who passed gender reform legislation at Holyrood, of holding "luxury beliefs" that have caused "real, lasting harm" to women.
Responding to this, Ms Sturgeon told Iain Dale: "I've bought the Harry Potter books for all the young people in my life and I'll continue to do so. She's entitled to her views," she said.
"Someone in her position appears to be punching down on trans people."
When asked about the transgender rapist Isla Bryson, Ms Sturgeon said: "Bryson is a rapist and is in a male prison and that's where they should be. I don't care. She's in a male prison and that's where they should be."
She added: "I'd like to think we can get to a more rational place in this."
Bryson, 31, was convicted last month of raping two women - one in Clydebank in 2016 and one in Drumchapel, Glasgow, in 2019.
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0:00
A very good evening. It is four minutes past seven on LBC. Tonight we are coming from Glasgow
0:06
sunny Glasgow I'm going to say because it's actually quite warm here today. And the reason is that we have Nicola Sturgeon with us for the first hour of the programme
0:15
Now we're also streaming this so if you want to watch us you can do so on Global Player
0:19
The reason that we have Nicola with us is, as you may be aware, she has published her autobiography
0:24
It's called Frankly. It's got one of the, I have to say, I think this is one of the best book
0:28
covers I've seen this year. Nicola, welcome. Hello, thank you for having me on. Now, people
0:34
always think that a work of autobiography is a work of fiction about yourself. That's what's
0:39
often said. And I think a lot of politicians find it a very challenging thing to do, to be honest in
0:46
an autobiography, to admit where they've got things wrong, as well as say where they've got
0:50
things right. When you were writing this book, how did you decide what to put in, what to leave out
0:58
because there's a lot of personal stuff in here, isn't there? Yeah, I mean, I guess I..
1:02
An admission, first of all, I'm not a massive fan of political memoirs. I find them very often
1:08
I know you do, you're a geek. Gosh, I shouldn't have insulted you at the very start of the interview
1:12
But I often find them a bit tedious and turgid, so I didn't want to write something like that
1:17
It's for others to judge whether I've succeeded or not. And, you know, I've lived my life in the public eye
1:22
That's been my choice. It's not a complaint. And people talk about my life
1:26
and there's endless caricatures of me out there. So I wanted to put my story into my words
1:32
It's my story from my perspective. So it's not a work of fiction, obviously, but it's subjective
1:37
It's the world and my career and my life is as I see it
1:42
And the decision on what to keep in and what to leave out was a difficult one
1:48
I mean, obviously, as well as being a personal story, This is an account of an extraordinary three decades in Scottish and UK political history
1:56
So I wanted to cover all of the big events that I had a unique vantage point on
2:01
And I guess the events that had a big impact on me personally
2:06
So I think the book I've published, people can make up their own minds about it
2:10
But I've covered everything that felt to me to be material and meaningful to my political and personal story
2:17
One of the running themes of the book is your shyness that you're an introverted person
2:22
that you suffer from massive imposter syndrome and we'll talk about that in a lot more detail in a moment
2:28
but why on earth did you pick a career in politics if that was the way that you're built
2:34
Yeah, I mean it's a really good question and I don't know that I have even now at 55 years old
2:39
the perfect answer to that As a child I was, and I tried to explain this in the book
2:45
and lots of people will identify with this I think. I was a walking contradiction, I was really shy
2:50
I preferred to have my nose in a book than to be out playing with friends
2:55
but alongside that and it's really hard to articulate this without making myself sound a bit arrogant
3:01
because that was not where it came from. I had this sense that I was going to do something in life
3:06
that was a bit out of the ordinary so I had these two competing pressures
3:12
you know the desire to hide away under a table with a book
3:16
and the desire to sort of go and do something you know out of the ordinary
3:20
and you were found under a table reading a book at your fifth birthday
3:24
I mean to be fair to me I didn't want a fifth birthday party my mother insisted and my friends were playing party games
3:30
and I was under a table with a book I locked myself in the toilet at my fifth birthday party
3:35
well we have something almost in common I think you know at 55 there's plenty of days when I prefer to hide under a table with a book
3:41
So that contradiction has always been in me and I've had to work really hard to overcome the former in order to do the latter
3:50
And, you know, coupled with that has been this, you know, lack of confidence, the wee voice in my head, what people would call an imposter syndrome
3:57
I think I reached a point in life when I went from seeing that as a bit of a handicap to actually being a bit of a superpower
4:05
I think if you've got a natural shyness, a lack of confidence, but you want to push yourself to do things, you end up working harder than you would otherwise and perhaps achieving more than you would otherwise
4:17
So I think it's worked out OK for me. But, you know, even today, I'm much happier
4:22
I use the phrase in the book, which, you know, I don't claim original authorship of, but I use the phrase public introvert
4:29
I am very comfortable standing on a stage talking to thousands of people
4:34
I'm much less comfortable in a room with 10 people having to make small talk
4:40
And again, you know, while not everybody goes and does the big public facing jobs that I've done
4:45
I think more people than we might appreciate will identify with that sort of contradiction
4:50
I think there is a lot of that in a lot of people in the public eye, not just in politics
4:56
I mean, I think Theresa May is another one. I mean, having interacted with Theresa May while I was first minister of the five prime ministers
5:04
that I did work with, the one that I had the greatest respect for. But I think she is also very introverted
5:11
and a lot of how she presented, although I disagreed with her politically
5:15
I could absolutely identify with because I think it came from that same place of shyness and introversion
5:21
Well, we'll come back a lot more to that because I think a lot of people who suffer from imposter syndrome particularly
5:28
I think, get over it after a time. But reading the book, I'm not sure you ever really have
5:33
I mean, even at big moments in your political life, you seem to be very unconfident in yourself
5:40
but you managed to mask that from the public. Because, I mean, I was genuinely surprised by a lot of this
5:45
Now, I mean, we don't know each other well. I've met you three times, I think. But I was very surprised at you saying all of that
5:52
I think people are surprised. And, you know, the older I've got and the further I've advanced in politics
5:58
understandably, it gets more difficult to convince people that I'm this little shy wallflower
6:03
And I get that. But I think, I don't know if people do ever completely get over imposter syndrome
6:11
Maybe they think they do or claim to do it. I just wonder if that's true
6:15
I mean, for me, it wasn't something that held me back. It was something, I'm not saying there was no downside to it
6:22
but I think there was more of an upside to a downside because it probably did make me think more about decisions I was taking
6:30
you know, wrestle more with decisions. It probably made the process of decision making harder for me
6:35
But, you know, maybe the world would be a slightly better place
6:39
if more senior leaders had a dose of imposter syndrome. I don't know
6:44
Do you think it held you back initially? It did. It held me back initially, I think
6:49
You know, I got involved in politics at a very young age
6:53
but I was going to SNP meetings probably for a year or more
6:57
before I uttered a word at them. I was, you know, I was just, I was desperate to be there and to be part of it, but I just couldn't get the words out
7:05
So it held me back for a bit. You know, somebody, and I'm sure we'll come on to talk about him later on, that played a part in helping me get over it because he pushed me on and gave me a belief in myself, you know, before I really felt it was Alex Salmond in my earlier days
7:20
So yeah it probably made it harder for me back then and there ups and downs to it but I think I preferred in recent years to kind of focus on the positives of it that yeah it driven me on in a way
7:35
that might not otherwise have been the case. You were interested in politics in your childhood
7:41
You talk in the book about you knocked on an SNP, was it an SNP candidate's door
7:46
Yeah. And said, can I help? But again, you and I have something in common
7:51
Margaret Thatcher inspired us to get involved in politics but in slightly different ways
7:56
I mean, obviously, I was a kid when Margaret Thatcher became Prime Minister, nine
8:02
and I wouldn't claim to have really strong memories of her election in 1979
8:06
but I do have a vague recollection of thinking, oh, you know, that's good
8:10
there's a woman in this really important job, which even back then speaks to the power of representation
8:18
I think it's fair to say over the next few years my views of Margaret Thatcher became less positive
8:25
I grew up in the west of Scotland, a former mining territory
8:29
where I understand you know a bit of as well. Well, my grandfather was born in the village
8:36
We have just discovered that we have this in Drekhorn in part of Irvine Newtown
8:44
So yeah, unemployment was sky high there. There was a sense of terror
8:48
If your dad lost his job, he would never work again. real sense of hopelessness and you know when I look back on it now I mean a lot of the economic
8:55
transitions then were inevitable but it seemed to me Thatcher you know didn't care people were just
9:00
thrown onto the scrap heap and that politicized me and got me into politics and the sense that
9:07
this was all happening in Scotland when Scotland didn't vote for Margaret Thatcher drove my
9:12
support and belief in Scottish independence as well. Let's roll forward to a couple of years ago
9:19
and we'll talk about a lot of issues in the interim. But whenever I broadcast a programme from anywhere
9:26
if I'm in a cab, I always say to the cab driver, look, what would you want me to ask the politician that I'm interviewing
9:32
So today I asked a Glasgow cab driver. Asking Glasgow cab drivers
9:36
Anything is very brave. Yeah, he gave me quite a few questions. I bet he did. But the first one was, why did she resign
9:43
I resigned for the reasons I set out when I made the statement saying that I was going to resign
9:51
Look, I mean, I'll cut to the chase here. Eight days after I left office as First Minister
9:57
the thing that everybody saw on the televisions around my house happened. I think it is entirely understandable that people think
10:04
ah, she knew that was about to happen, so that's why she resigned. Categorically, that's not the case
10:10
I mean, the period between me saying I was going to resign and actually leaving office
10:15
people around me will say I was more relaxed than I'd been in a long long time I was looking forward
10:20
if I'd known that what happened was about to happen I would have been unable to function
10:25
so I stood down because I'd reached a point I was exhausted to be honest we'd just come through
10:31
Covid I'd been first minister for eight and a half years the Covid years made it feel much
10:37
longer than that I felt I just had nothing more to give I felt you know politics not just in
10:43
Scotland but globally becoming so polarised so toxic I felt I was part of that problem not
10:50
able to be part of the solution. You felt that you were becoming too divisive. Yeah and and people
10:55
were viewing every issue through a prism of what they thought about me so if they liked me they
11:00
would back me on every and vice versa and it and it was very difficult to sort of lead rational
11:06
debate and you know that was my responsibility. So these were the reasons I stood down. There was
11:12
also a sense of you know back when i made that statement i was 53 i'd been in politics i mean
11:17
i've been in parliament since i was 27 i've been in you know government uh for i had been in
11:24
government at that point for 16 years i'd done nothing in my life really other than pursue a
11:30
political career and then have a political career i just was at that kind of mid-life point of
11:35
thinking if i don't you know start to work out i know everybody knows who nicola the politician is
11:41
but if I don't start to focus a bit more on Nicola the person then I'm never going to do that
11:46
So those were the reasons. I mean, essentially you were exhausted. I was mentally and physically
11:50
Because there are various points in the book where you talk, I think, is it the 2015 election
11:56
2017. 2017, yeah. Where you barely functioned at the end of that campaign
12:00
I had this weird, and I still don't know what it was, I came back from a trip to the States
12:05
with this kind of weird chest infection that just wouldn't lift and I got a lung scan
12:11
in hospital and there was nothing that they could see but right through that 2017 election I was
12:17
you know I was doing leaders debates when I was struggling to breathe um so but that that was a
12:23
physical ailment back then it was a you know I was ill um later on after Covid Covid you know
12:30
Covid had such a big impact on everybody but it exhausted me I went through 2020 without and I'm
12:37
I'm not asking for plaudits for this. It was probably a really stupid thing to do
12:41
I didn't take a single day off because so focused was I on trying to kind of lead the country through that
12:48
And so I was exhausted and I felt, you know, it's the kind of job if you're not able to give it 100%
12:54
you shouldn't do it because it needs 100%. So that's why I stood down
12:59
And obviously the two years after that were, you know, challenging for reasons that we might touch on
13:07
When I interviewed you at the 2023 Edinburgh Fringe, I remember asking you, look
13:11
you've been doing this job for quite a long time. You wouldn't be human if you weren't thinking about when to go
13:17
And obviously I knew you weren't going to suddenly announce on the Fringe. As much as you would invite me to
13:20
Well, Ian, yes, actually, you know, I think I will. But you said, no, you were still full of vim and vigour
13:27
And then Jacinda Ardern, who I think you'd think a lot of
13:31
I mean, she announced that she was going. Presumably that was something that also had a bit of an influence
13:36
So it's a strange thing. When I said that to you, I wasn't lying to you
13:41
No, I didn't think you were. And even just, I remember doing an interview with Laura Kunzberg
13:46
and the BBC just at this, you know, the New Year interviews on a Sunday morning
13:51
And, you know, she asked me, Jacinda must just have announced her resignation
13:55
And, you know, Laura asked, she used that phrase, nothing left in the tank
13:59
And so Laura said to me, what about you? have you got plenty and I was like absolutely and and I I believed that or I was telling myself I
14:08
believed that but something that I'd obviously been working away in my subconscious for quite a
14:14
while started to rise to the top of my my mind in the weeks after that and the Jacinda Ardern thing
14:20
I vividly remember turning on the news that morning and hearing her resignation statement
14:26
and I think it took me maybe but must have taken me I don't know whether hours or even a couple of
14:32
days to to articulate to myself what I felt but I suddenly realized I felt envy at the fact that
14:39
she was walking away and once that started I think it then just it became a question of of when not if
14:47
and but I still wrestled with it I went you know one day I would be convinced right I'm going the
14:53
next day I can just walk away and so I went through a period of I don know for a few weeks of of back and forth But I think by then I knew in my gut that that what I was going to do
15:05
Let's go back to that day when the police knocked on your door
15:13
I can't imagine what was going through your mind at the time
15:19
Do you think they would have done that had you still been First Minister? I genuinely don't know
15:25
You must have asked yourself. Do you know what? I've asked myself that a lot. Do you know what
15:29
In a strange sort of way, I kind of hope the answer is yes
15:33
because I wouldn't want to think that what happened was influenced in any way
15:38
People should be equal before the law and there shouldn't be a difference in treatment
15:43
So while had it happened while I was still First Minister, I mean, it was horrific enough when it did happen
15:49
it would have been, you know, doubly 10 times if I'd still been in office
15:52
but there is a part of me I think if I was to sort of get to a point where I thought
15:56
no it wouldn't have happened then that would raise really profound questions in my mind about
16:00
but I don't know I can't answer that question I do know when it happened
16:06
I think in the moment that morning I went into some kind of shock
16:12
because I remember fragments of it but then there's other bits that I really
16:16
struggle with and you went to your parents which I think anybody would probably do
16:22
in those circumstances, but you must have had several days when you really couldn't quite work out what was going on
16:32
and your husband was arrested. And obviously because there are charges pending
16:38
we can't go into a lot of the detail here. But, I mean, what was going through your mind at that point
16:47
I just had a kind of confusion, what was this all about
16:52
I, you know, this was an investigation that had been going on for, you know, a couple of years by that point, I think
16:59
I always, I guess I felt more of a sense of frustration about it than any real concern
17:05
because I didn't believe there could be anything of substance there. And obviously I can't go into anything about substance for the reasons you've just said
17:13
So I guess there was a sense of bewilderment, confusion and kind of horror and shame
17:18
you know my my house was being pictures of my house would be beamed across the globe looking
17:23
like a murder scene um so i kind of hunkered down at my mom and dad's for two or three days i think
17:30
it was and you know the house i grew up in as a kid and that gave me it gave me a kind of sense
17:38
of security and comfort that i really needed at that point um and then what did your parents say
17:43
to you when did you turn up on their doorstep no i phoned so in the morning you know i was kind of
17:48
well you have to go somewhere else and and then it was like well where am I going to go um and I
17:54
set a lot of this out in the book and my initial instinct was to protect my parents and not phone
18:00
them I mean I didn't realize in that moment that that would have been impossible that within
18:04
an hour it was going to be headline news um so I phoned my you know the woman who had been my
18:10
chief of staff as um first minister and she luckily as it turned out she was in the gym so
18:17
she didn't answer the call so i had to phone my mum and dad and i'm so glad it happened that way
18:22
because being with my parents is the only place i really would have wanted to be um and they were
18:27
just they did what you know good parents do they basically just like metaphorically put and
18:33
literally in some respect just put their arms around me and like you know it's it'll all be
18:39
fine and just be here and be here for as long as you need to be it took two years for you to be
18:45
cleared by the police is that the right word um sort of well the police didn't proceed with any
18:50
charges and they said they weren't going to now i think anybody who's been in that situation um
18:56
it must be the most horrendous pressure on you and and you explain in great detail in the book
19:03
the pressure that you felt and the effect it had on your mental health yeah i mean it was
19:08
yeah i can describe it and look before i talk about this people go through much much worse
19:14
things so I'm no in no way unique here but it was like a form of mental torture it was never not in
19:20
my mind there were days where I was able to push it to the back of my mind there were days where it
19:24
was so dominant in my mind that I could barely think of anything else but it was always there
19:28
somewhere I would lie awake in the middle of the night thinking about it and it went on for a long
19:35
long time and you know I would kind of think well how much longer can it go on I knew I'd done
19:41
nothing wrong so rationally I knew it would have to end in the way that it did end but you know
19:46
you there is a sense of paranoia kicks in the longer it goes on well are they going to sort of
19:51
decide to say I've done something wrong so it was a really tough time I think that what I've tried
19:57
to set in the book and I don't want to make it sound as if I think oh it turned out to be a
20:01
you know really good thing for me I wish with everything I've got that it hadn't happened
20:05
but I did learn a lot about myself during it and I did find a resilience that I've always been quite
20:12
a resilient person but I found a depth of resilience I did not know I had and I discovered
20:18
what really good friendship is I had a really tight group of friends who from day one just
20:25
kind of rallied around me and gave me practical support emotional support and I you know because
20:32
of my focus on work over the years i'm not convinced i've always been the best friend to other people but i've learned the power of friendship and i hope i can repay it to these
20:41
people at some point um direct question how much has all of that episode how how much what role did
20:51
that play in the end of your marriage a big role i mean i say in the book you know we'd both kind
21:01
a step back from the front line well mine was front line his back room but still a very senior
21:05
position obviously in politics your husband was just to explain to listeners he was chief executive
21:10
of the smp and played a huge role in our election success you know down the years so and this now is
21:16
a question i can't answer definitively because well we don't know whether it would have happened
21:21
but it's possible we would have coming out of these jobs and starting to do different things
21:25
in life we would have grown apart anyway but the pressure of of that period yeah I just think I
21:32
maybe some relationships could and would have survived that I I would struggle to see how that
21:39
would be. Do you think Alex Salmon was right when he advised you when you first took on the job of
21:45
leading the party that maybe it was time for Peter to move on as well? I guess my only hesitation
21:54
and answer that question directly is it kind of somehow takes us into the substance and starts
21:58
to suggest that you know i don't think it does well because it would it would suggest that you
22:03
know there was wrongdoing or whatever in that but anyway that's i can see why people think that is
22:08
what i've said in the book and you can take from that what you want with me that kind of
22:13
you know determination to kind of pry into my personal life um i think went beyond what it
22:20
should have done. And I've, part of the reason I've chosen to open up about my personal life
22:23
in this book is because I think after that I want to try to redraw the boundaries I don expect I can ever be completely private and anonymous
22:35
But I do think for the next phase of my life, I want to redraw the boundary between the public and the private
22:39
and actually reclaim a private life. A personal question again, but since you announced your split with your husband
22:49
do you still talk a lot? Yeah, we communicate. obviously I'm concerned about how he is
22:57
and you know so from that point of view we don't talk about you know
23:02
the thing but you know you can't Is that what you call it? The thing
23:08
No it's not what I call it it's what I've just called it there because I couldn't I can't possibly sometimes call it
23:13
things that are less polite than that so yeah I obviously I'm concerned about his well-being
23:21
and so yeah we do but not about anything of particular note
23:28
You do talk about sexuality in the book. You talk about you don't regard your own sexuality as non-binary
23:35
which, of course, even by saying that, you've opened up a can of worms by saying that, haven't you
23:40
Because people now are going, well, are speculating about, well, what did she mean by that
23:45
The thing is, people were speculating before that. People have speculated. That's the point I'm making
23:49
It's people speculate whatever I see, whether I say nothing or say
23:54
So what I mean by that is, it's not a sort of big revelation about myself
24:00
It's not labelling myself. It's just that's how I see the world. I don't think sexuality is binary
24:05
and some people will disagree with that. Some people will never want to concede that
24:09
but I think that's probably true for most people. But does that mean that you would be open
24:14
to a relationship with a woman? I am right now just out of a lengthy marriage
24:21
just out of a pretty torrid couple of years of my life I'm enjoying being single and I think that's
24:27
as far as I'm gonna go right now everyone says that but they never really mean it do you know
24:32
what look a month from now two months from now I might not mean it but but right now I do I'm I
24:39
I always kind of hesitate before it's not the first time I've said it in the last week or so
24:45
I was so focused on work when I was younger that I probably didn't have as much fun as young people
24:51
should have. So I think I'm living a delayed adolescence at the moment and I'm determined
24:56
to do it for a bit longer. So you're on Tinder? Is that what you're telling me? I'm not on Tinder, I'm absolutely not on Tinder. I wouldn't even know how to get on Tinder, can you imagine
25:04
I'm just trying to imagine someone swiping and seeing your face and thinking, ooh. No, just for the purposes of any tabloid newspapers listening to this, I am not on Tinder
25:12
don't go looking for me. Oh, that would have been a headline, wouldn't it? Right, lots more to cover
25:16
with Nicola Sturgeon. We're talking about her autobiography, it's called Frankly, it's out
25:20
well it's been out for a week how's it actually going are you enjoying the whole process yeah i'm really enjoying it look it's a bit like an election campaign um and i've been reminded of
25:29
how exhausting that is um and you know it's taking me back a little bit into a sort of world that
25:33
feels like my old world um but with a difference because it's a book not politics or not straight
25:39
politics um but yeah i mean i'm enjoying it and i've always wanted to write a book and i've done
25:46
it and lots of people are reading it and buying it which i'm hugely hugely grateful for
25:50
Well, lots more to come on LBC. I'm going to approach the subject of Alex Salmon next, so Nicola's got a couple of minutes to think about that one
26:01
What's the time now? It's 7.32. It doesn't tell me on my screen who the newsreader is, so I'm going to guess that it might be Amelia Fox
26:08
7.34 on LBC. Apologies to Amelia Cox, not Fox, as I just said. I should know that by now, shouldn't I
26:15
We're talking to Nicola Sturgeon live in Glasgow about her autobiography, Frankly
26:19
Now, there's one name that permeates all of the political pages. It is, of course, Alex Salmond, who you say was your mentor
26:28
Obviously, the relationship, I think, over time sort of deteriorated, didn't it
26:34
It wasn't sort of, there wasn't one thing that... It deteriorated over time, but not to a point where we were estranged or anything
26:42
That only happened with the allegations and complaints against him. And he was cleared of those allegations
26:48
He was getting cleared of criminal behaviour, but he, I think in his trial and what he said to me
26:54
I think he conceded that his behaviour towards women had not always been appropriate
27:00
I think my regret was that he couldn't just reflect openly on that and apologise
27:06
And instead he launched this attempt to claim conspiracy. When he died, I thought hard and actually wished I could just have excised the chapter
27:16
about the breakdown of our relationship from my book. The reason I couldn't is that right up until the point he died
27:23
he was claiming that I'd been part of a conspiracy against him. And to this day, supporters of his are claiming that
27:30
And I felt it was necessary to set out, I was going to say not, I was going to say my side of the story
27:36
but it's the facts of what happened. Because he now can't put his side of the story
27:41
And I think a lot of his supporters have been very critical of you for
27:45
well they say you've waited until Alex Salmond has died to make these claims that you've made in
27:50
the book now I'm sure you would have made them anyway I wish he was still around to read it
27:55
um I don't know that it would whether he would or whether it would make any difference to him
27:59
but I guess all I'd say is you know it's almost every week one of his supporters claimed that I
28:06
was part of some kind of conspiracy so I would love to never talk about this again but I don't
28:11
get the opportunity to do that and I can't just sit back and accept that what they say but by being
28:19
silent almost implicitly accept that it's true. I had written the chapter on Alec before he died
28:27
I thought hard about whether or not to keep it in but that was my judgment. I also don't think
28:34
I could write and I've tried in the book and I hope I've succeeded to give him credit for the
28:40
things he absolutely deserves credit for it it would have been easy for me or tempting for me I
28:44
guess to rewrite history to say well I always knew he was a bad one kind of thing but he was a hugely
28:49
influential figure in my life he was a force for good in my life for a long long time he
28:55
achieved great things we achieve great things together so I've tried to you know be true to
29:01
that to pretend otherwise would wouldn't have been fair to him or to me for that matter but
29:06
But I can't not give what I consider to be the facts around the reasons for the breakup of our relationship
29:15
What do you say to his family who have been critical of you for writing about him in this way in the book
29:22
And a lot of his friends have been critical. Geoff Aberdeen, who's one of his chief advisors, who I'm sure some of you know well
29:28
he says, I was brought up that you don't speak ill of the dead. But if you're going to speak ill of the dead, at least make sure your claims stack up
29:35
and he's done a video of things that he says you've said in the book, which are just clearly untrue
29:41
What's your response to him? And what's your response to his family, particularly his wife, Moira
29:46
I stand by everything I've said in the book and some of it, you know, some of the political stuff, you know
29:52
Geoff was around for some of it and, you know, knows as well as I do the reality of some of that
29:56
So I stand by, incidentally, I have no argument with Geoff Aberdeen. It's somebody I was extremely fond of and remain so, but I stand by everything I've said
30:07
I wish his family know... The reason I thought about taking this chapter out was because I don't want to cause any more hurt to his family
30:15
in particular to Moira, his wife. But some of the people who have been critical of me for writing my side of this
30:24
are the same people who still claim completely wrongly that I was part of a conspiracy against
30:30
them. So we seem to be in a position where they want to continue to be able to do that
30:36
but they don't want me to have the ability to defend myself and to say, actually, what happened
30:42
You know, I take responsibility for my behaviour and I try to do and for the decisions I make
30:47
but what happened around this episode was rooted in Alec's behaviour and not in mine. What happened
30:53
to Alec was not my fault. And, you know, if people are going to continue to say that it was
30:59
I need to be able to set out the reality because these claims of conspiracy that still happen today
31:06
you know, the hurt they cause me is the least of it. They cause a lot of hurt to women who came
31:12
forward with the complaints. So, you know, I would love to stop talking about this episode in my life
31:21
I have no desire to keep talking about it. But, you know, I wake up many days to find some other
31:27
some supporter of Alec or other continuing to claim that this was all some conspiracy against him
31:32
Do you not think you should pick up the phone and speak to Moira about it and explain to her why you feel the need to do this
31:39
I don't think Moira would welcome that. I haven't spoken to Moira for a long time
31:44
Again, she's somebody, obviously I didn't know nearly as well as I knew Alec
31:48
but somebody I interacted with over my earlier time in politics. If there was ever any sense that Moira wanted that, of course
31:58
but I don't think that would be a kind thing for me to do to Moira
32:05
I have no ill will towards Moira or to Geoff, but I am not going to just sit back and accept this version of events
32:14
that what happened to Alec was somehow instigated by me or by my fault
32:18
And I don't think it's reasonable for anybody to expect that I should do that
32:25
I read the chapter on Alec's first chapter in the book because I've been fascinated at how two allies, very powerful allies
32:36
clearly very close friends, had fallen out over the years. and I thought particularly moving was the last bit about your reaction
32:45
when you heard that he'd died and I think we were all completely, I remember hearing about it
32:51
driving up the M4 and I was in tears on the phone because I very much liked Alex
32:56
We had a few fallings out over the years, particularly if he's going to Russia today, which I know you disapproved of
33:03
But the way that you write about it, it's almost as if it's sort of
33:09
he was someone that you were almost married to, but you got divorced and then you suddenly hear he's died
33:15
and you react in a very emotional way. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't use that ogy
33:21
but we were really close. And obviously more professionally and politically, you knew Alec, he wasn't a great one for emotional kind of expressions of feeling
33:32
but I think we were friends and I, you know I've said in the past I loved the guy as a close colleague and friend and so
33:41
you know when we stopped talking when the breakdown happened which was you know in short
33:47
because I wouldn't help him sort of push away the allegations that had been originally made about him
33:56
and he wouldn't and couldn't forgive me for that and when we stopped talking I went through
34:01
then what I can only describe and I do describe it in the book is a grieving process I used to have
34:07
I used to have vivid dreams where you know we'd be on old terms and good terms and I'd wake up
34:14
and you know that way you wake up from a really vivid dream and for a few seconds you think it's
34:19
real and then I'd remember it wasn't real and I'd be hit with this wave of loss and sadness
34:25
and before he died I thought I'd got to a place of peace
34:29
and not feeling that anymore and then I got a phone call from Ian Blackford as it happened to tell me he died and I was hit with that all over again so it it deeply complex my I not sure I ever
34:43
get to a point of being utterly at peace with the whole situation with Alec because it was so complex
34:51
and you know I had thought we would never reconcile I remember saying that to you in an interview at
34:58
the Edinburgh Fringe. And I think the reason for that was that for there to be any prospect of reconciliation
35:04
I thought he would have had to concede, well, OK, I should have behaved better and it wasn't a conspiracy
35:09
I didn't think he would ever do that. So I had come to terms with, we'll never be on speaking terms again
35:15
But it's one thing thinking that when somebody's still alive, but when they suddenly not
35:21
and you know there is absolutely no prospect, then that's a very different thing
35:26
Final question on this. My sense, when I finished reading that chapter, was that this was more than a political friendship
35:35
You said you loved him as a colleague and a friend. Was there ever any romantic relationship with Alex
35:40
Absolutely, categorically not. I mean, you know, back in the day, I, you know, was fond of the guy, loved the guy, but no, definitely not
35:48
Okay, right, we will move on to other subjects with Nicola Sturgeon in just a moment
35:52
We're talking about her memoir called Frankly. It's 9.45, 7.47, we're with Nicola Sturgeon
35:57
you met Donald Trump I never met him in person I had a phone call with him
36:03
which you more or less have transcribed from memory which I think was hilarious
36:08
the way you describe it but he called you a bad first minister recently
36:13
I think terrible was the word he used actually how did you react to that
36:18
I wear it as a badge of honour and it was nice of him to do it just the week before my book
36:22
came out as well I thought it was great I'm going to have the quote on the front of the paperback
36:26
because we just missed the hardback. Right. Now, obviously, one of the issues that has caused you a lot of
36:33
well, has caused a lot of controversy is your view on gender recognition. Now, you said in a recent interview
36:38
that anyone who rapes a woman, quotes, probably forfeits the right to be the gender of their choice
36:43
In fact, I think you write almost those words in the book. What do you mean by that, probably
36:48
Oh, I think one of the mistakes I made and I just was unable to communicate properly over this
36:56
was around Isla Bryson, the prisoner that caused all the controversy, who incidentally did go to a male prison
37:04
I think they were assessed in a female prison. I think within a day, actually
37:09
And the process they went through was exactly the process that trans prisoners have been going through for a long, long time
37:14
There was nothing different about that. The issue I find is I have no..
37:20
I'm not concerned about Isla Bryson. they raped women and I have no concern about them at all
37:28
The issue is in the whole debate about trans anything I say about somebody like that
37:34
gets almost taken to apply to the whole trans community. Trans people are not inherently dangerous to women
37:42
Abusive men are dangerous to women. You will get bad people in every group in society
37:47
Some biologically born women abuse children but in no other group in society
37:53
do we try to taint the whole group I'm a feminist, I've campaigned
37:57
and stood up for People laugh at you when you say that now given your stance on these issues
38:02
Some people do Quite a lot do actually in Scotland But this is the whole
38:07
I think the whole narrative around this is intended to suggest that all women
38:13
have a particular view, that is not the case Many, many women
38:19
take a different view. But if you're going to be consistent on trans rights, if you believe in
38:25
what you clearly do believe, they have to apply no matter what people's crimes are. You can't
38:29
forfeit your gender by committing a crime. I think I'm just, that person should be treated
38:34
and should be in a male prison and they are in a male prison. The point, and I'm trying to make
38:38
a more general point here, which is the issue here is how the wider trans community are being
38:46
treated right now. There is a real cruelty around this debate about one of the most stigmatised
38:52
groups in society. And, you know, some women, I believe a minority of women can laugh if they
38:58
want, when I call myself a feminist, but maybe I'm just at the stage of my life, I don't care
39:03
I'm a feminist. I'll continue to stand up for women's rights. But I don't think that means I
39:08
can also and shouldn also stand up for the rights of the trans community I don think these two things are irreconcilable and I will never accept that The other point which again gets totally lost here
39:21
is that the legislation that my government took through, which incidentally was supported by MSPs of all parties
39:28
it wasn't just an SNP thing, wasn't some groundbreaking measure. I've just come back this morning from Ireland
39:35
That was been on the statute book in Ireland for years. and the sky didn't fall in
39:40
I'd like to think we could get to a more rational place on this debate
39:44
where we absolutely... But surely clarity might help take the toxicity out of it
39:49
I mean, I hesitate to go back to Isla Bryson, but do you regard Isla Bryson as a woman or not
39:55
Isla Bryson's a rapist and is in a male prison, and that's where they should be. And that's, you know, I am concerned about trans people
40:02
who've done no harm to anybody, who are being tainted with the brush of what Isla Bryson has done
40:08
And I think it's really important. But Isla Bryson claims she's a woman. I don't care
40:14
Isla Bryson's in a male prison and that's where Isla Bryson belongs because Isla Bryson committed a heinous male crime against women
40:21
But if this was just about Isla Bryson, that would be one thing. But this is about a debate in which trans people as a group
40:29
are being further stigmatised and effectively demonised in our society right now
40:37
and life might be easier for me if I just said, well, okay, I got that completely wrong
40:42
and I should never have tried to make life a bit easier for trans people, but I'm not going to do that
40:47
And, you know, people can say what they want about me. What's your message to J.K. Rowling
40:51
who didn't seem to like your book very much? She's entitled to her opinion
40:56
I'm a great admirer of her work. I've bought Harry Potter books for all the young people in my life
41:01
and I'll continue to do so, although all my nephews and my niece are beyond
41:07
that stage now, she's entitled to her opinion. What I regret is, I think, somebody in her
41:16
position appearing to me to be punching down on trans people. You can express your opinion
41:22
you can have your debate, and I guess if she's having a go at me, she's not doing that. So that's one good thing. And maybe one of the problems in society these days is too many
41:31
unaccountable billionaires trying to dictate political debate. Who are they? Well, there's lots of them. Elon Musk, for one
41:41
What's next for you? Are you finished with politics? I'm finished with politics
41:45
Well, not until the Scottish election next year. Well, actually that's an interesting point because one of the other
41:51
taxi driver questions I had was why is she still taking a salary from the Scottish Parliament
41:55
Because I'm still doing a job as an MSB. But are you? Yes
41:59
Are you speaking in Parliament? Speaking in Parliament Are you asking questions? I ask questions
42:04
Speaking of Parliament is not the only part of the job of an MSP. My constituency is just across the river from here
42:10
and I represent my constituents and I have always taken that job very seriously
42:14
So yes, I'm doing my job as an MSP. And you will continue to until the elections next year
42:20
I will absolutely continue to until the elections next year. But then, that's the dividing line
42:24
So no more... You wouldn't consider Stanley for Westminster? Absolutely not. I have no desire
42:30
I never really had any desire to go to Westminster. I did stand for Westminster and would have gone
42:34
had I been elected. I wasn't. But no, I've always wanted to pursue my politics in Scotland
42:40
I say in the book, you know, one of the things the last couple of years has taught me is that you never know what's around the corner
42:45
So never say never to anything. But as of now, I am done with elected politics
42:52
and I don't see myself ever standing for election again. Would you like a big international job
42:56
No, I'd like, I'm enjoying right now, not having the constraints of you know obviously i'm passionately supportive of the snp i'm a
43:05
member of the snp always will be um but i'm enjoying not always just having to take a party
43:11
line on everything i'm enjoying not having the constraints of a big organization and you know
43:16
who knows and in at times to come i might change my mind i've loved writing the book i'd love to
43:22
write more i care about lots of different causes and i want to you know find ways of of contributing
43:29
in some way to them but I'm enjoying a life that is I guess just freer than I've experienced for a
43:35
long time. I know the SNP don't nominate people for the House of Laws but if Keir Starmer rang
43:40
you up one day and said look I think you'd be brilliant in the House of Laws as a crossbench
43:43
pier I mean I suspect you have to climb over Ian Blackford twitching carcass first but would you would you even consider that Sorry I laughing Ian Blackford is one of my dearest friends I know I know I still laughing at that
43:56
I like him too. And he will have laughed at that. He will enjoy that, actually. I would not consider it
44:01
You will absolutely... There's one thing I can say definitively. I disagree with the House of Lords in principle
44:07
I don't think people should be making laws when they're not elected. So you will never find me in the House of Lords
44:12
But you have thought about moving away from Scotland, which is another surprise
44:17
Not moving away, spending some short periods of time outside of Scotland
44:23
Living in London? Possibly a period in London, but possibly elsewhere as well
44:30
I've just come back from Dublin and I've been reminded all over again how much I love that city
44:35
I don't think I'll ever be out in Scotland for very long. It's my home, it's where I belong, it's where I feel happiest
44:41
but again going back to I was so focused on work when I was younger I never lived outside of
44:47
Scotland when I was younger I think there's something healthy about seeing your own country from the outside for a period I this is not a complaint but obviously there is a lot of scrutiny
44:56
on me in Scotland um I'm not complaining about that but it it might be nice just even for a
45:02
period of a few months to to experience life somewhere else and then come back to Scotland
45:08
with a different perspective, maybe. Apart from not achieving independence, which I get, I mean, that's the raison d'etre of the SNP
45:16
it's why you joined the SNP, but it hasn't happened during your period as First Minister
45:22
Apart from that, what would you like to say sorry for? I think on the educational attainment gap
45:27
which I, you know, made, and, you know, I don't regret making the big commitment to close that in my time as First Minister
45:33
I think I under appreciated the need to do more to tackle what happens outside schools with tackling child poverty, the thing that holds many kids back
45:46
And I did a lot, the Scottish Child Payment being an example of that. But I wish I'd been able to do more on the educational attainment gap
45:54
I think progress has been made and will continue to be made, but I shouldn't have made the commitment I did without being sure that I could meet it
46:07
Cheeky question. Did your pal Val McDermott give you writing tips? No
46:12
Because it's a very well, I mean, sorry, this sounds very patronising, but it's a very well-written book, I think
46:17
It has pace, you can tell a story. I had an editor from Pan Macmillan Publishers who was brilliant, but I wrote the book entirely myself
46:27
I wouldn't have recorded the audio book myself, the idea that somebody else would tell my story
46:31
That's not an enjoyable experience, is it? I hate it. I didn't hate it. I mean, it's hard work, harder than you think, but absolutely categorically not
46:39
Val did not. She gave me one tip early on in the writing process and, excuse my language in advance
46:45
where I was struggling. I had writer's block, to use the grand terminology
46:50
one morning. So I texted Val to say, has this happened to you? How do I get over it
46:55
And she came back with the very sage advice, stop fannying about on WhatsApp
47:00
and just write. So that is the sum total of the advice
47:04
Val gave me, but it was good advice. So that's why you're so bad
47:07
at replying on WhatsApp. I'm terrible at replying on WhatsApp. I apologise
47:13
That was a justified dig at the end, Adrian. Just a news story that's been in certainly the English newspapers
47:22
over the past couple of days, this phenomenon of people putting up English flags all over the place
47:27
Now, I've always thought this was a weird thing, where if you put up the Scottish flag in Scotland
47:32
and use the word nationalist, everyone thinks that's fine. In England, if you put up the English flag
47:38
and talk about English nationalism, that's somehow seen as not acceptable. Have you often thought that's a bit odd
47:44
Yeah, I mean, I'm an independent supporter. I'm not a big flags person
47:49
I don't, you know, routinely fly the Saltire. I think in any country there's nothing wrong with having pride in your flag
47:55
and being able to fly the flag. And, you know, I really hope England is an independent country
48:02
at some point in the future. Well, there's a thought. Maybe that should be our phoning discussion for the next hour
48:10
Nicola, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much. There's a lot we haven't covered. And I know people say, why didn't you ask her about this
48:15
Why didn't you ask her about that? But there's only so much you can fit into one hour
48:19
The book is by Nicola Sturgeon. It's called Frankly, published by Pan Macmillan in hardback at £28
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