Up next in 10
Reform UK has hit out after it was suggested that Labour could apply proposed donations laws retrospectively and force Nigel Farage to hand back two £36m donations given to the party by crypto-billionaire backers.
02:30 LBC's political correspondant Natasha Clark, analyses the story with Tom Swarbrick.
05:32 | Dale Vince, Founder of Ecotricity, Chairman of Forest Green Rovers FC, and a major Labour Party Donor comes on to tell Tom that politics should be a battle ideas, not a battle of money, and calls for an end to private money in politics.
11:44 | Caller Martin is concerned about the retrospective nature of the proposals and the implications it could have on other laws.
14:22 | Gary is a Reform voter, but he says 'the answers aren't good enough' whenever they come explain where the money comes from.
17:25 | Luke tells Tom that he thinks that political parties should have no private donations, and all their funding should instead come from the government.
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
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0:00
Nigel Farage is suggesting this afternoon that two £36 million donations that they have received at reform
0:06
might fall foul of new laws the government want to bring in to limit foreign donations
0:11
This is Christopher Harbourn, based in Thailand, and Ben Dello, based in Hong Kong
0:15
Both handed £36 million each to reform. The parties insisted the donations are in line with the current rules
0:21
and planned restrictions on money from donors based overseas. They are being heard in the Lords, I think, almost as we speak
0:29
those changes would restrict donations from expats to £100,000 which would also apply for the first 12 months after they return to the UK
0:38
changes which would be backdated to March 25th this year so there is a question now about when or if these two donors manage to get back to the UK
0:47
and if they don't fall foul of those rules Nigel Farrow speaking with the BBC this afternoon
0:52
Both these donations are 100% compliant with the law today. There is talk, and Angela Rayner was talking about this yesterday
1:03
there is talk of them retrospectively declaring donations illegally. Well, that simply, that simply cannot be
1:13
If a government was allowed to do this, you know what would happen? There'd be a response the other way
1:18
that we or the Conservatives would say, right, if you're going to stop legitimate donors like this
1:24
we will then say to the trade unions, you can't give money. The civil servant who led a review into foreign political interference
1:31
a man called Philip Rycroft, has said that there does need to be an overall cap
1:36
He recommended that cap be a million pounds. You should start off somewhere really quite generous
1:43
even up to a million pounds a year, which would still allow the political parties to raise the sorts of money that they need to function
1:52
without having recourse to public funding, but also capping spending limits, so reducing spending limits
2:01
So you take the pressure out of the system. You don't have this arms race
2:06
Reforms say these donations merely level the political funding playing field with Labour and the Tories
2:13
Should any new law act retrospectively, potentially making these donations illegal? Should there be a cap on donations to political parties
2:20
Should political parties even be able to receive private donations? Should they be taxpayer-funded
2:26
Natasha Clarke is LBC's political editor with a story that is making its way up the agenda incredibly quickly, Natasha
2:31
Yes, that's right, Tom. And Richard Tice earlier could not say whether it was in the last 12 months
2:37
these two donors had been able to return to the United Kingdom
2:41
And they are British. They've moved overseas. They've now moved back, but we don't know exactly when
2:45
So we do not know whether they would fall foul of these new rules or not
2:49
But yes, this is very much going up the political agenda. The TUC conference in Brighton today, Paul Novak has said this money doesn't smell right
2:56
Reform have hit back at that, saying this is sour grapes from the dying political class
3:01
And as you say, they say this money will level the playing field at all of the money that Labour and the Conservatives get
3:06
And in the last few hours, Angela Rayner has been speaking at the TUC's annual gathering this afternoon
3:11
Nigel Farage's sugar daddies made their money in crypto, but there's nothing cryptic about their motives
3:20
They know full well that a reformed government will act in their interests, not the public interest
3:27
And if Farage will do you a cameo for £70, just ask yourself what he'd do for £70 million
3:35
And it's not an entirely unhelpful conversation for the Labour Party to have
3:40
But equally, it does open up a discussion about their trade union money as well
3:44
Unite Sharon Graham says there should be a UK donor cap. And as you say, Philip Rycroft agrees there
3:50
They say that that will be a big step in the right direction. But reform says this is shifting the goalposts after the horses bolted
3:57
The government, of course, said in March that this would affect donations going forward
4:00
But it is difficult because the law hasn't technically passed yet. So it's quite unprecedented and controversial to be changing the law in this way
4:09
Nigel Farage has this afternoon vowed to fight this with everything he's got
4:13
And, Tom, he's hinted that if reform win the next election, they will go after union funding
4:18
Any attempt by this government to retrospectively change the law will be fought by us with all the might we have
4:28
I would just warn the trade unions of the Labour Party. If you try and ban our donors, we in government would certainly ban yours
4:36
Sounds like it's war, Tom. And could we be about to see some form of legal challenge from reform on this
4:40
They have successfully essentially pushed back on the government over the changes to local governments
4:46
This could be the second time that they decide to go after the government legally with a change that they believe is unlawful
4:52
Presumably reform knew that this law change was being discussed, being thought about, being talked about because it's in the House of Lords today, I think
4:59
So they were aware that this could have been backdated until March 25th this year anyway
5:03
They did know because the government announced in March when they said that they would be doing this, they did tell everybody
5:08
So it's not a surprise. It not a surprise But like I say it is unprecedented because that law has not yet passed yet Obviously there has to be a cutoff somewhere so it has to happen at some point But the fact that this law hasn actually passed through the House of Commons yet
5:20
that's something that doesn't usually happen. Natasha, appreciate it. Thank you very much indeed. Natasha Clarke, LBC's political editor
5:25
Nine minutes past five, Dale Vince, is founder of Ecotricity, chairman of Forest Green Rovers Football Club and, previously, a party donor to Labour
5:33
Thank you very much indeed for coming on the programme. What's in it for you, Dale, as a donator to a political party
5:39
What do you get from it? Afternoon. Afternoon, Tom. If you're asking me why I gave money to Labour
5:45
at the last election, it was to close the funding gap to the Tories who in the previous election
5:50
outspent every other party put together. So there was a gap. The idea that 17 million levels the
5:56
playing field is nonsense, it distorts it completely. But I use the same words when I
6:00
gave 5 million to try and level the playing field. But the fundamental problem we have here
6:05
is that the playing field is never level. Private money shouldn't be in politics
6:10
because it comes always with the suspicion that something is wanted or offered or given in return
6:16
It undermines our entire democracy for the sake of £50 million a year
6:20
That's the average that all the parties in our country have raised over the last five years
6:25
That's a packet of crisps each so we can clean up politics completely
6:28
if we ban all donations, unions, crypto people, people like me, everybody
6:34
and we just publicly fund what should be a public service politics in our country
6:40
Labour, I think, according to these figures from the House of Commons Library, brought in £42 million in 2024
6:45
It was a general election year, of course. The Conservatives brought in £32 million
6:50
But you're right, over the past three years, the Tories have brought in about £101 million, Labour £73 million
6:56
But presumably you must get some... It's not, you know, do you close your eyes at night, Dale
7:00
and think, oh, great, I'm glad I donated to the democratic process? or talk us through the process of actually doing it
7:05
Who do you ring up to say, yes, here's five million quid? I mean, they have a fundraising team like every party
7:13
So they're the people that I speak to. But look, what do you get at the end
7:17
You get a, you know, here's a big novelty check to say you donated, invitation to a dinner at a conference
7:24
I think you're trivialising this. And I'd much rather talk about the fact that the Tories doubled election spending
7:29
at the last election, and as one of your previous contributors commented
7:33
that one of the things we can do is turn down the amount of money that our political parties need to fight in the election
7:39
We don't want to go the way of the US. We can see where money takes the election and the political process
7:45
It's terrible over there. We don't want that over here. And this £72 million is a terrible step in that direction
7:52
But you're right. I mean, it's gargantuan sums of money, far more than five, obviously
7:56
although reforms say again that it is bringing them somewhere close to what the Tories and Labour
8:02
have earned over the last few years but you've been part of that process so I just wonder whether
8:07
you're saying it's wrong but I helped out anyway or I shouldn't have helped out. Yes a simple
8:13
explanation Tom the system we have is a system that we had to work with at the last election
8:18
simply everybody had to raise money from private donors so I stepped up to do what I could to help
8:23
Labour win. But what I've been arguing for a long time now is that we shouldn't have that system
8:27
It undermines our democracy, trust in democracy and in politicians. For the want of just 50 million
8:33
quid a year, packet of crisps each, we could take all of that away. 50 million quid a year
8:37
for split among everybody equally? Yes, yes. 50 million quid a year again for how many parties
8:45
All the parties we currently have have raised on average 50 million pounds a year in the last five
8:49
years, excluding, of course, this very recent massive donation. That was our research from a
8:54
few months ago. So numbers may have changed, but that's an average. It's not an election year. In
8:58
an election year, of course, the numbers have gone up considerably because of what the Tories did
9:02
doubling the spending. But we can fix all of that and we can put our politics back on a proper
9:07
footing. Look, here's one thing I want to say. I think that politics and elections should be a
9:11
battle of ideas, not a battle of money. And yet that 50 million quid presumably would have to
9:18
change during election years and how would people feel about their taxes funding political parties
9:23
how much of a say would they get in where that money is spent well how much of a say do we get
9:28
in the running of our whole country the three trillion economy the 20 billion we spend on
9:33
civil servants to run our government to run our country well how much of a say do we get we don't
9:37
all agree with every spending decision but 50 million is a rounding error in our three trillion
9:42
economy it's a packet of crisps each and when we polled the public they said yes that we should do
9:47
this. We should take private money, any non-public money, in fact, because union money is not quite
9:52
private money. We should take that out of politics. Who is going to take this idea up, do you think
9:58
in the political system that we've got? I have no idea, but I'm going to keep banging on about it
10:04
Because it doesn't suit, it would seem on the face of it, it might not suit any political party's interest, given that they're raising money through private donation. It's much easier to do
10:11
that than to try and argue and get into a law change about it being funded through taxation
10:16
no I think it'd be a very easy thing to do I think it'd be easy for Labour to do I think it would
10:22
it would it would take money out of politics which I think is so important and let just make it a battle of ideas I mean and take all the all the suspicion of corruption whether it real or not just take it all away And I think that we put politics on a better footing in our country
10:36
and people will have a better opinion than politicians if we did that. Do you feel then it is unfair to, you know
10:42
the criticism that I think sometimes is levelled at you, that you donated to the Labour Party and your business received government tax subsidies, what have you
10:51
that it's unfair to link those two things? Well, the second part of that is actually completely untrue
10:58
I don't know where you got it from. So there was no government subsidy that came to your business ways
11:03
no tax breaks, nothing of that nature? Exactly. So where did you get it from
11:07
Well, that has been the suggestion, I'm afraid. By who? Well, various newspapers, various columnists have made the suggestion
11:13
that part of your donation was to have a favourable business outlook for your businesses
11:18
Yeah, I understand. And it's a fairly cheap shot and it's backed by zero evidence
11:23
Well, that is you then denying it fully. Thank you very much indeed for your time. Dale Vince is founder of Ecotricity
11:27
chairman of Forest Green Rovers Football Club, and a Labour Party donor. Take the private money out of politics, he says
11:34
Bring it to taxpayers. Would you be willing to do that? That would get rid of these questions
11:38
of where this money is coming from. £72 million from two people. They're going to want something from it
11:45
The idea that retrospectively you can take away something from somebody that they got legally
11:52
at the time, because the laws at the time allowed you to have it, should actually frighten
11:56
everybody. This is the sort of thing that Xi Jinping or Vladimir
12:00
Putin would do. Or the sort of thing you'd see in a failed
12:04
African state, where there's a military takeover and they then go persecuting all the people
12:08
that was in power before. If you want to go down this path, simply because
12:12
the Labour Party are full of envy and spite that reform have got this money, if you want to go down that path, that leads to tyranny
12:18
Right. And whether you're on the left or the right, you should be concerned by this. So you don't believe laws should apply retrospectively there may be certain instances but on something like
12:29
this why is this what i can see is legal legal donation that hasn't broken any laws unless it's
12:35
found that they were living overseas when they donated it then obviously then it is illegal
12:40
but if it's legal and because of spite and envy you decide to introduce legislation
12:45
to take that away when they when it was perfectly legal at the time you should be concerned about
12:51
that because of what could happen in the future. But that would be true of any law that applied
12:56
retrospectively wouldn't it depending on how you felt about a particular issue. I presume Martin you're up in arms about this because you are a reform supporter. Now I'll be honest I'm hand on
13:05
heart if this had happened to another political party I would still think it's fishy instincts
13:10
so I'm at least being honest there. Because there are plenty of laws that apply retrospectively
13:16
I'm sure there are. But isn't it convenient that when it's reform, oh, that's different
13:22
Any money they receive, immediately it's viewed with suspicion. But when we have people like Frank Hester giving £5 million to the Tories
13:31
after saying that Diane Abbott makes him want to shoot all black people
13:34
and then when you've got the endless amounts of money that are shoveled to the Labour Party from trade unions
13:40
oh, that's absolutely fine because they're the good guys. They're good people. You can have money
13:44
But nasty reform, no, no, no, you're not allowed any money. And just think of this, Tom
13:49
If we get a crazy government in the future elected, that for whatever reason, they get elected and a few weeks in
13:56
they decide that they don't like the idea of people owning a second home. And in retrospect, they then put legislation in place to seize your second home
14:03
even though you bought it perfectly legally with your hard-earned money. What's the difference between that and what Labour are proposing now
14:11
You see them as one and the same thing? It is the same thing. It would be theft to take this money back from reform
14:18
Yes, if it's legally given, because the laws at the time allowed it to be given
14:22
So I've been a voter now for only two years with reform, and I like their idea of, you know, fresh party
14:28
and basically securing the borders and things like that. But I'm not happy
14:32
The answers aren't good enough for me, where the money's coming from. I don't believe all this kind of money has been donated off as a friendship
14:39
and I'm concerned in the sense of if they do get into, because there'll be a big
14:44
party, if they do get into running the country how do I know after two years of
14:48
paying them each month as a subscription that they're going to be honest with me because it doesn't make
14:52
sense with Laura Koonsberg, I think I saw the interview and I just didn't buy some of the
14:58
things Richard Tice and the other chap was saying, especially on another TV
15:02
channel, I'm not happy with the answers, it's as simple as that, I've got nothing
15:06
against, you know, I'm I'm a supporter, but I don't like the answers
15:12
And I know other parties have their problems with the money and things like that
15:16
We know about Peter Mandelson, don't we, with another party. But me as a subscriber to Reform, I've been paying now for two years
15:24
how can 72 million, be it Bitcoin or whatever, just come out of thin air and say
15:30
there you go, Nigel, you're a good guy. I'm going to hand this money to your party. Do what you want
15:34
It doesn't make sense to me. and I'm a person of, you know, I like to say that too
15:40
You want some proper answers about where this money come from whether it legit what it being used for Correct And you know I think people think anybody that joins reform is just going to say
15:52
yes, yes, yes, we agree with everything Nigel says. I do not agree with this. And I'm not happy with his answers
15:58
And it's really disappointing because I think we can get really far in the sense of
16:02
you know, we're literally... Yeah, the worry for you, Gary, is it's from sort of either nefarious sources
16:08
or flouts the rules. yeah it's just a paper trail why can't he just clarify the paper trail i don't understand why
16:18
he can't be honest on it does it it's really annoying he would argue he is being honest
16:24
he would argue he's saying there's no problem here it's all fine it's all about board
16:28
no i don't buy his answers because you don't just give 72 million or five million from one and
16:35
another from another and just say there you go nigel because i like your parts i'm going to give
16:40
you all this kind of money and what's he going to do with the money that's the main thing is he going
16:44
to put it is he going to put money towards the i'm on about keeping the borders safe and secure
16:49
is he going to secure the borders i mean what's he going to do with the money he hasn't said what's
16:53
he going to do with the money well that's kind of up to them i guess uh you know you've got to hire
16:57
a lot of staff if you're going to run a national uh campaign at a general election a national
17:03
campaign as a general election which by the way Nigel Farage still believes is coming what early
17:08
next year springtime next year I mean I'd love to know whether Labour are struggling for cash
17:13
because they'd spent it all uh not just at the 2024 election but in there's been subsequent
17:18
by-elections they're not cheap um how much money Labour have to fight a general election in in the
17:23
spring if Nigel Farage believes one's coming Tom Delvin's cracking interview a bit feisty and I'm
17:29
surprised that he's had the thing to say that he donated five million and now he says people
17:34
shouldn't donate money i think the 72 million or 36 million each uh is is fantastic news for
17:41
democracy it gives reform a chance to be able to portray uh their policies clearer without it being
17:48
diluted on the through some headlines and it also helps them to get top people in because that's
17:55
how they're going to work they're going to get top professionals in to to help make the policies
17:58
not just rely on who's voted as an MP. Well, so they're going to use the money to, you think
18:08
buy in expertise from the private sector by paying top whack through private donations
18:14
I don't know about top whack, but they'll be paying a lot of money to get people in who aren't good enough within the MPs
18:19
But the money, and this is presumably in government? There'll be people working for the government
18:25
but you get people in, you get economists in, all sorts of people. Yeah, but you can't... We don't want the best policies
18:29
They've been well thought out. I agree. You want the best people delivering the best policies. I totally agree
18:34
Whichever political party you may see that coming from. I guess the point is, though, Luke, if you are in government
18:40
the taxpayer funds those wages. So are we saying... Is your hope that reform in government privately tops up the wages
18:47
of political appointees so that they're not paid public sector wages? I guess so
18:53
But what's wrong with that? I mean, any business that does well gets people in... Yeah, I mean, that's new
18:58
That's a pretty new thing. It's a fantastic idea, because if you haven't got the strength and depth within
19:03
I mean, certainly Labour couldn't find a Prime Minister, so they had to go external, didn't they
19:08
Which means they had to go external. Well, the Mayor of England, otherwise known as Burnham..
19:12
He was the Mayor of Manchester, he wasn't the Mayor of England. But they haven't got external
19:17
He was elected as an MP and then elected as the leader of the Labour Party
19:21
But we know the process that they had to do to get him in, because they couldn't find anyone from 411 MPs
19:25
Yeah, that's fine. He became an MP. That's the main thing. I'm not sure we could have an unelected prime minister
19:30
I think that would be pushing it. Well, no, I think that it's great news
19:35
I mean, the last guy said... But it's great news why, Nick? It's great news because, in your mind
19:40
reform could top up the wages of government employees that they could attract people from the private sector
19:45
who don't want to earn £85,000. They want to earn £480,000. To run campaigns, to do that sort of thing
19:51
to get ideas in. I mean, maybe not long-term, but short-term, to get the policies together
19:55
You need the right people and the best people. And all it's doing is..
19:59
I mean, you look at... No one battered an eyelid when the Brexit campaign
20:04
one raised £30 million to leave and £13 million to remain. Do you remember that
20:10
Astronomical different figures. And you've got Lord Sainsbury who gave £10 million
20:15
You've got the Conservatives over the last six years who raised £190. Yeah, although maybe it shows that it actually doesn't work
20:21
Because last time I checked, despite raising lots of money, the Conservatives are not in power. Reform were, for some time at least, quite a long time
20:27
ahead in the polls and didn't have this money. Well, it doesn't always work
20:32
I mean, certainly the Remain campaign lost out and obviously the Tories' biggest spenders lost as well
20:38
They hardly got anything. So it doesn't always work, but it certainly gives them a chance to get some decent offices
20:43
locations, decent people to help them out. Well, in that sense, I'm glad it's privately funded
20:47
If that's what the money's going to, I don't know that I want my tax money going to help reform getting an office
20:53
There you go. So that's why you've got decent people. And let's celebrate another billionaire moving to the UK rather than the other way
20:58
I mean, this is all good news
#news