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Violence against French officers trying to stop Channel crossings is 'very common', it has been revealed, after shocking footage emerged showing officers being attacked as they intercepted a small boat attempting to leave France.
This comes as French authorities have intercepted 185 potential crossings with 4,300 migrants this summer over four weeks, as well as stopping 12 boats at sea.
00:00 | Nick Ferrari is joined by LBC's political correspondent Bethany Dawson to set out the context for the story.
03:31 | The Conservative Deputy Chairman Matt Vickers is pressed on why his party did not do more about this when they were in power.
08:28 | Caller Chris believes the Conservatives 'lied' when they said they would deal with migration figures when they were still in office.
09:45 | Caller Phil reiterates Caller Chris' point.
12:07 | Caller Derek wonders why 'we never hear about how many the French are deporting'.
3:37 | Listener Davie: 'No one seems to mention the Rwanda experiment was cancelled by Labour before it got off the ground.'
15:52 | Caller John was in Calais recently, and described how 'deserted' border was.
17:02 | Border Security Command's Charlie Eastaugh talks Nick Ferrari through the footage that 'the public don't always see'.
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0:00
If you thought the numbers were bad about the people who were making the crossing
0:02
and it's worth reminding you, of course, people have lost their lives making that small boat crossing
0:06
There does appear to be, does appear to be, some glimmer of support for the idea of the French connection
0:11
Here with all the details of what that has achieved, LBC's political correspondent Bethany Dawson joins me in the studio
0:16
Bethany, good morning. What you got? Well, the government has announced that French officers have prevented 185 boats and 4,300 migrants
0:24
from reaching the UK between the end of April and the beginning of August
0:28
under the £500 million UK-France deal. The Home Office has said that since the deal with France was struck three months ago
0:37
61% of small boats have been intercepted, a 5% increase compared to last year
0:43
But critics are essentially saying that this is in line with the other announcements we're seeing from Andy Burnham
0:48
They are on topics that people care about, but represent a smaller change
0:52
than what people are hoping to see from the Prime Minister. A 5% increase, the government will say, is a start
0:59
And indeed, it is good news for the government, but they will be crossing their fingers that soon they can shout about bigger numbers
1:06
When it was clear he was heading into number 10, Burnham's critics queried how good he'd be as Prime Minister
1:11
because of his lack of experience in home affairs. Here, we can clearly see that he is trying to prove
1:18
that he is the right man for the job, that he is making a difference. This follows a similar tone from what we've heard from him recently
1:24
where he's pressing that small boats is at the top of his agenda. We're just going to be relentless
1:29
People want to see this issue addressed. I heard that on the doorsteps in Makerfield
1:33
But we also need to build a system that offers safe routes for people as well, because that also takes away the selling point of the gangs
1:40
So on every level, we've got to come at this, but crucially, increasing the enforcement activity
1:47
There's something else that I think is quite interesting within the Home Office press release on this
1:51
There's a specific highlighting that Home Secretary Shabana Mahmood signed off on this deal when in Keir Starmer's government
1:58
It's absolutely true that she did. But by highlighting her role in this
2:02
I think Burnham is trying to prove that he made the right choice in keeping her in post
2:07
Many MPs within Labour questioned his choice to do this, hoping he would opt for someone more to the left of the party
2:13
But here he's not only standing his ground, he's trying to position that Shabana Mahmood is crucial
2:18
to stopping the boats. Now, it's worth saying that this announcement, although the government are thrilled about it
2:23
is not going to quash any of the questions about long-term changes to small boats crossings
2:28
For one, this UK-France deal faces criticism for being very expensive, and Lib Dem leader Ed Davey told LBC's Benji Hire
2:36
in Dover this week that it's not good enough. At the moment, we're paying £5 billion a year
2:41
for a failed asylum system, which has seen over 200,000 people come over the channel on small boats
2:49
Under our proposals, we reduced that number to zero. And rather than spending £5 billion
2:55
it would be £100 million a year. Nevertheless, Andy Burnham and Shabana Mahmood
3:00
are going to take today's news as a big win. But September is now around the corner
3:03
and the new number 10 resident is finally going to have to face
3:07
the House of Commons and the wider Westminster body and actually give us a full plan to stop the boats
3:12
LBC's political correspondent, Bethany Dawson, reporting for LBC. And if you go to the LBC app, you can see some video of this, and it's quite bouncy video
3:19
You will see the French authorities trying to do what they can. You'll see the reaction from the migrants
3:23
So you might want to check that out on the LBC app. As I say, it's quite bouncy. There's aggressive moments in there
3:28
Right on the political side, nine minutes after seven, let's bring Matt Vickers, Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party
3:32
Shadow Minister for Policing, Crime and Illegal Immigration, into the conversation. Good to have you on, Deputy Chair. Thanks for your time
3:38
Well, what's not to like? This is a great success. What are those numbers again? 185 boats, more than 4,300 migrants
3:45
I'm sure you'll be the first to praise the government. Good morning. Good morning, Nick
3:49
I think we need a bit of a reality check on this, Nick. I think you guys, instead of taking up the garbage
3:54
that the government kicks out, polishing all these poops, you need a reality check
3:58
You need to look at the facts. So between August 24 and August 25, 30,000 migrants were prevented from crossing from France
4:06
Between August 25 and August 26, that number fell by more than 50% to 14,462
4:13
So the government might try and pick this month or that month. And what happened? It's gone down by more than 50% on the year
4:20
That is ridiculous. That is appalling. And that's half a billion pounds worth of investment in the French
4:25
The only way you deal with this problem, remember, under Starmer, more illegal migrants arrived in this country than under any previous prime minister
4:33
Burnham has been in there nearly a month. And already another three and a half thousand have arrived
4:37
The only way to deal with this is to leave the ECHR. for those people, when they get in those boats
4:42
to know they will not be allowed to stay. Detain, deport. The one good thing that's come out of the government this week, actually
4:51
is the fact that it sounds, it sounds like Shibana Mahmood might have learned that the last government was right all along
4:58
If people break into this country, they need to be removed. She's now looking, considering a Rwanda-style scheme
5:04
The people at home know that is the only way to deal with this. People need to know they will not be allowed to stay
5:09
if they break into this country. But if you have an opportunity to study the video
5:13
as my listeners hopefully will do, Mr Vickers, you will see the French, I assume they're gendarmes
5:17
I don't know if they're border force, but they literally are slashing the boats apart with knives
5:21
they're using what I'm going to call pepper spray against some of the migrants who then try and fight back
5:25
That is what we want to see. Why can't you applaud that, Mr Vickers? Well, the film crew were at the ready
5:30
the gendarmes jumped into action. Well, you can contrast that to the video we saw the other week
5:35
on the ground, without a major film crew put on by the Home Office. Chris Philp was there, the shadow home secretary
5:41
speaking to officers on that beach who were literally watching people pass
5:46
when they were questioned about this. They said they were under instruction not to intervene
5:50
The numbers speak for themselves. The number of interventions has halved. It gone completely the wrong way But there a more than 40 drop in those crosses If the home secretary were here if Mr Burnham were here that is how he would counter this He would point to I think it 42 whatever it is more than 40 drop
6:06
We have to celebrate that. Surely that means it's working, Mr Vickers. Thousands in the last month, 3,500 more under Burnham
6:13
That is not acceptable. Things can go up or down. We need to stop this thing. We need to majorly reduce it
6:18
We've had 4,000 aerotrains arrive in the country, illegally applied, turned down, rejected for their asylum claims
6:25
How many do you think have been removed? Go on. Two. Two. Two from 4,000 have actually been removed
6:31
That isn't the way it works. Leave the ECHR, detain, deport. There's a real plan there
6:36
I would ask Andy Burnham, ask Siobhan Lamoud. We've got a plan ready
6:40
Kemi's done the homework. She knows how we can do it. We can reduce these numbers
6:44
We can send a message to those people thinking about getting in the boat that they're not going to be able to stay
6:49
and abuse our hospitality. Lastly, Mr Vickers, you mentioned arrivals from Eritrea, you'll be aware of a story
6:54
of yesterday fuelled by concern of rising crime from some of the people arriving
6:58
including an Eritrean male who went on to rape a 65 year old man
7:02
behind a church in Harrow an Afghan man who raped a 12 year old girl
7:06
in Warwickshire. The Home Office has put out a leaflet, a pamphlet, telling people
7:10
when you come here you can't beat your wife you can't rape people and you can't have sex with children
7:14
under 16. That document, that booklet is it an admission of failure
7:18
Mr Vickers? It is an admission of failure If you come to this country with those values
7:24
thinking you can behave like this in this country, you should be stopped, you should be prevented
7:28
In fact, you know what? If you come into this country illegally, without the consent of the state
7:32
you should be removed anywhere. We cannot keep importing people with these disgusting values
7:38
Why did so many arrive under the Conservatives' watch then? Well, that's why we're bringing forward the Rwanda scheme
7:43
It looks like Shibana Mahmood. But you failed as well, didn't you? This is an admission of failure
7:47
but as was the Conservatives' attempt at this, that was a failure as well. You didn't stop the boats, as Mr Sunak said
7:53
The only answer to this. Well, Kemi has said, I would tell you, previous governments got this wrong, they failed to do this
7:59
The one thing they were getting right was bringing forward legislation to detain and deport anyone who broke into this country
8:04
What's this government done? The first act it made in government was to remove that scheme and also to allow..
8:10
They've amended legislation that was put in place to allow illegal migrants, people who broke in
8:15
to become British citizens. That is a disgrace. Grateful for your time, Matt Vickers
8:19
your Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party, Shadow Minister for Police and Crime and Illegal Immigration
8:23
Let's get one of your voices on before the news. Might go a minute late to the news. Chris is in Richmond. Chris, you're on the radio
8:29
Is this success or just more failure as the Conservatives are painting it? Which is it? Good morning
8:33
Well, I mean, clearly it's a success. The deportations have actually gone up. Clearly the numbers are not going to come out down east
8:39
I've just come back from Crete. Oh, OK. I hope you had a good time. I hope you all was well
8:42
No, very nice. But the reality is Italy, Greece, Spain, All of these countries are struggling with the same problem
8:50
It is an international problem, which frankly emanates mostly in Libya by criminal gangs
8:56
I listened to Matt Vickers, and the guy is a liar. He said we were going to deport everyone
9:00
No, you weren't. Only one in 100 people was going to go to Rwanda
9:05
You need to have – you can't just pick people up. You're going to send them somewhere. Where are they going to land, Nick
9:10
You have to have a returns agreement. And all the people that supported Brexit, including your good self and Mr. Dale and other LBC journalists
9:16
journalists know very well that we left the dublin agreement in 2017 18 19 we could deport
9:23
every single one of these people back to france that is now not possible everyone involved in the
9:29
brexit program has to be honest about that chris i'm glad you had a good time thank you i would say
9:34
this was not the brexit that i would hope was could have achieved and it was an opportunity
9:38
squander but chris good to have you back this conversation will continue Phil, success for the government
9:45
with these boats, good morning yes, Matt Vickers is an idiot basically Nick
9:52
this is great, the first two callers have just called him an absolute idiot, I love it
9:56
on you go sir you've got to challenge people like him I did, I told him we had years of conservative failure
10:02
I said that to him the Conservatives cut immigration offices thousands they did, you check the data
10:07
not only that, they cut everything to the bone But to be honest with you, there are countries that are in the ECHR which are ramping up removals of migrants
10:16
So you don't have to leave the ECHR. Get to the ECHR, but they want to leave the ECHR so they can strip away more of our rights internally
10:23
The thing for me, Nick, is that, you know, years and years of neglect by the Tories
10:28
and yet they seem to have the temerity to come on the radio and say that Labour are doing a bad job
10:33
You know, I mean, you're an educated man, yeah? So you know that if you neglect something for years, you're going to have problems decades later
10:40
Of course, yeah. Yeah, absolutely right. That's my saying. So what I would say is that the Tories need to push back
10:46
or have some introspection and just say, you know, we messed up and we're going to sit back and see how it goes
10:51
rather than just attack Labour on everything. I'm sorry, I will interrupt you just there briefly
10:55
He did say that Kemi Bednock accepts there have been mistakes by previous governments, is what Mr Vickers told us
11:02
Yeah, exactly. But I'm just saying all you hear is from ex-Tories
11:06
or Tories in reform saying we need to do X, Y and Z, why didn't they do X, Y and Z when they were in government
11:12
Lastly, when you get up in the morning in Sidcup, how much concern, how high up your agenda
11:19
is the question of small boat crossings? I would imagine you worry about the security of your family
11:24
and your friends, you probably worry about how much money you've got in the bank. How high up, and the health, how high up the list are boat crossings
11:30
Or is boat crossings? Not very high. I'll tell you what's high up my list
11:34
Things like Thames Water and those things. And bills. Those are the real problems
11:39
Yeah, for me, that's not being addressed. People's cost of living is the biggest..
11:43
I'll tell you what, Nick, if people had a greater sense that they could afford stuff
11:48
and their kids could get decent jobs and buy houses, this would start to slip down that ladder of concerns
11:55
Fascinating speaking with you Have a good day there on South East London the border of the Kent Kenton area I know very well Phil thank you Who got it right Labour or the Conservative opposition Derek in North Ardleton Which way are you going to call it Derek Good morning
12:08
Nick, good morning. Hello, sir. We hear every now and again drip feed how many deportees we send back
12:15
But what we never hear about is how many are the French deporting
12:20
We sent them millions. And if they started deporting them, they wouldn't be on the beach to come here
12:26
What do you mean? Sorry, you mean the French send them back to Ethiopia or Eritrea
12:31
Well, wherever they come from, they've got the same problem as us, but we never seem to hear about them deporting them
12:37
back to their country of origin. Well, they'll have the same issue
12:40
They'll have worse issues than us in that, obviously, as you're aware, Europe is a large landmass
12:45
There is a Schengen Agreement, so when these folk get to Italy or Spain or whatever
12:50
if they want to, it's a clear path to Calais. Well, yes, but they're getting through the borders
12:55
to get to the beaches of Calais. That's the Schengen aspect, isn't it
12:59
Surely that's what that's about? Well, I don't really know. It just seems that we don't hear about the French deporting them back
13:06
But when you heard this news today on LBC, did you think, ah, well, actually, the government is making progress here, credit to them
13:12
or did you buy what the Conservative politician was saying, which is it's all basically a smokescreen
13:17
Which was it for you? Figures and figures do not particularly interest me
13:22
What you see is what you believe. They have not stopped the boats coming across here
13:28
Derek, thank you. What have we got? Four minutes before eight is the time
13:32
Let's go to some of your emails and texts that are coming in. Davey in Fife
13:36
No-one seems to mention the Rwanda experiment was cancelled by Labour before it got off the ground
13:41
ECHR hampered it. Rwanda would have equaled no HMO's House of Municipal Opportunity
13:46
No would be populated, no army barracks, less... Well, I don't know if we can say this
13:51
We shouldn't say less, it's fewer. Fewer rapes and murders. Can I let that go
13:55
Yes, you can, actually, because, yeah, OK, people have been convicted. More social housing for families and probably a lot, lot cheaper
14:03
Ben in Stockwell wants to make a different point. The UK has far fewer refugees than any other country
14:08
such as Iran, Pakistan and Uganda. They are hosting millions of refugees
14:12
Regarding the booklet, I have met and known many British-born men who deserve such a booklet
14:17
Well, I think we probably had, well, I know we had, a very extensive conversation about that booklet
14:22
in which we're telling the rivals in this country that they can't beat up their wife and they can't rape people
14:26
and they can't have sex with people under 16. But, Ben, your point that there are plenty of folk, it was actually made brilliantly, I think
14:31
by someone who texted my show yesterday, as in, if you found someone in your house
14:36
a burglar in your house, or, God forbid, a murderer in your house, or a rapist in your house, you wouldn't invite another one in, would you
14:43
So you're absolutely right in what you say. Of course there are British-born rapists and British-born murderers and sex attackers
14:50
but I don't know if that really is the grounds that we can invite a few more
14:54
You have to allow, I would have said, to do everything you can for the safety of women
14:58
And we don't need to go over yesterday's argument, but when you consider that for the protection of everyone from a 12-year-old girl who was raped by a man from Afghanistan
15:04
to a 65-year-old man who was raped by a man from Eritrea
15:08
and the protection they're being offered is an eight-page, I think it is, leaflet or booklet
15:14
That tells you a lot. But that was yesterday. Let's come back to what we're saying about the boats
15:19
David in Horsham, I'm fed up with people calling LBC, citing our withdrawal from the Dublin Agreement
15:24
It's a terrible thing. Between 2015 and the end of 2020, when the UK officially left the EU and stopped participating in the system
15:31
the UK transferred 2,154 asylum seekers out of the country to European member states under the Dublin regulation
15:38
That's eight a week over five years. Challenge these callers. It is, of course, how you want those figures to go
15:45
but thank you, David. I'll take those figures because they're so precise
15:49
that you have researched them. John's in Birmingham. John, what can you tell me? You've been to Calais recently, it says, on the note here
15:53
Good morning. Yes, Nick, how are you? Good show, mate. Thanks, Paul. Went out for the mighty Aston Villas game at Salzburg
16:00
Oh, right, OK. And must have been crazy, but I've got a young lad that's getting his first experience
16:05
So we went from UK to Austria on a coach and had to travel through Dover and through Calais
16:13
Tell me what you saw. How old is your boy? And tell me what you both saw. My lad's nine years old
16:18
so it was like a once-in-a-lifetime experience for him. But honestly, through Calais, it was such an eye-opener
16:25
Massive, massive ports, very, very few people. And there was lots of us on the coach that were saying
16:31
aren't we spending hundreds of millions of pounds on this? and there was one border person putting people through
16:39
and I could not believe it. There was rows and rows of fencing, but there was nothing visual
16:44
I mean, if I was... Not that I would, but if people were trying to break in there
16:48
there wouldn't be an issue in trying to do it because there was nobody there. It was deserted
16:53
We're not getting value for money, are we? Not at all. Not at all. I mean, that's £220 million on one border guard
17:01
We can now go to Charlie Easthow, who is Director of Maritime and Small Boats at Border Security Command
17:07
Thanks for your time, sir. We are seeing videotape of what French police or border force are doing
17:12
as regards they're slashing those dinghies and they're taking on those migrants. As you understand it, how frequent are those police operations
17:19
Good morning. Hi, good morning, Nick. Thanks for having me on. I'm really pleased to release this footage today to show the public what they don't always see
17:27
This is coverage of French officers wading into the water on French beaches, slashing vessels using tear gas
17:36
defending themselves against migrants and facilitators who are throwing rocks and fighting with them
17:41
and then ultimately slashing the vessel and immobilising it. And these are scenes that we're seeing more and more regularly
17:48
Last Thursday alone, the French prevented out of the public eye two boats at sea and one boat on the land
17:55
and that was all three of the boats that tried to cross so 100 prevention and zero arrivals and that exactly what we responding to every day And the destruction of these vessels that is a fairly frequent occurrence
18:07
Yeah, that's quite right. Every single one of the vessels that we intercept and securely process in the UK is destroyed
18:15
I've sometimes seen some coverage that says they're given back to the French. It's absolutely incorrect
18:20
And the destruction on the French side is very regular. I know we've released some data today
18:24
which says around 185 migrant events prevented, and that includes destroying a significant volume of equipment
18:32
which has prevented thousands and thousands of these really dangerous crossings since the Home Secretary's new deal was signed
18:38
One new development, Charlie, is, and I hesitate to call it a dinghy
18:43
but much, much larger vessels. I think they're being nicknamed mega dinghies
18:47
Do we know where they're coming from, where they're being manufactured and where they're launched from
18:50
What can you give us, what intel can you give us on that? I know those images are really concerning and it's the case that these vessels are incredibly
18:59
dangerous and unsafe that my primary concern seeing these in the channel is around a mass
19:04
casualty incident being inevitable and we saw one sink with 168 people ending up in the water
19:10
we supported the French rescue and took every single one of them back to France
19:14
a couple of weeks ago but it's our assessment it's likely we're seeing this as a result of
19:19
robust law enforcement activity. That's not just on the French coast. That's working with
19:23
international partners far upstream and in Europe to clamp down, to seize the equipment, seize the
19:29
material that's being used. And one of the side effects, one of the displacement effects is
19:34
organised crime gangs having to take greater risks, go further away and use more dangerous equipment
19:39
The video that's been released where you see the French officers taking action, you also see the
19:44
officers having rocks thrown towards them. Do we know, is that the traffickers, the gangs
19:49
or the asylum seekers themselves? What intelligence do we have on that? I don't have specific intelligence on those specific rocks being thrown in that video
19:57
but it's a very common occurrence to see large sticks being wielded and used against French
20:04
officers, rocks thrown. There have been a number of firearms, quite serious assault rifles seized
20:10
in the migrant camps in northern France. And it's a combination of those looking to board
20:16
those organising the crossings, those piloting, so the helmsman of the vessels. And that's why some of the new legislation that this government has passed
20:23
has allowed us to crack down on specific endangerment offences to imprison more and more people who are putting these particular lives in danger
20:32
while trying to cross. And our message is really clear that you are not beyond the arm of the law
20:36
once you're on the French beach or once you're at sea. and this is exceptionally dangerous and you're committing criminal offence
20:42
Hardly surprising then the officers are using sprays to defend themselves, Charlie, if it's that level of violence
20:48
We see French officers, in particular the CRS, which is a dedicated public order unit
20:53
and you'll see those pictured in the particular video you're referring to, Nick
20:57
using a really wide range of public order defence tactics. Those, unfortunately, have been required
21:04
as violence has become more and more common on the French coast over the last few years
21:08
We've talked a lot about the French coast. Sadly, Charlie, you'll know better than I, there's a lot of money involved here
21:12
People are paying thousands of dollars or euros or pounds ahead. How likely is it, are you watching
21:18
that they could move around a little bit, move up to Belgium? We have seen displacement, Nick, this year round to Belgium
21:23
with a number of launches from the Belgian coast. As you know, there's no physical border
21:28
between the French beach and the Belgian beach. It really is just a hop down to the east
21:33
and we did see some displacement in the spring, very low numbers of crossings overall
21:40
and only one successful crossing since the 21st of June, so in the last two months
21:46
In fact, last week there, we saw the first attempt from Belgium for quite some time
21:50
and the French intercepted at sea using their maritime doctrine and stopped that boat from making it to the UK
21:55
How confident are you that the traffickers, the gangs, the smugglers are getting the message, Charlie
22:00
i think the numbers that we've released today and that i know there's lots of different ways of
22:06
cutting the metrics and using percentages but i think the most important one for me and and for
22:12
us and i'm sure many of your listeners is how many people are actually making it to the uk and every single time we see one of these in the channel um it's it's a threat to our border
22:21
security it's a massive safety of life at sea issue and my brave officers who are working on
22:28
this 24-7 hammered to respond. And I think it's very important that anyone seeing this knows
22:33
that this government and our officers are taking this exceptionally seriously and not standing by
22:38
and accepting this as the norm. Credit to the brave men and women who serve under you. Final
22:42
question, an idea beloved of many, including some senior politicians, is just put the Royal Navy in
22:48
the channel. They can stop them. You're an expert in this field. I'll be intrigued to hear what you
22:52
say to that would seem rather simplistic approach. Charlie? Yeah, you're appreciating it. As a civil
22:57
servant not elected politician i'm here to serve the government of the day help them dutifully
23:01
implement any of their policies i did that under three conservative and now two labor governments
23:06
working on against these small boats i what i will say is i do work closely with the royal navy
23:11
in this role as you suggest indeed they supported us by taking command of the channel operation
23:16
itself in 2022 under operation isotrope we learned excellent lessons on surveillance and capability
23:22
but the numbers didn't go down that year in fact they were the highest on record
23:26
Good luck to you and the men and women who serve alongside you. And thanks for your time today. Charlie Eastor is Director of Maritime and Small Boats at Border Security Command
23:33
Let's give you those headlines again. 185 small boats crossing in the first three months of this new UK-France deal
23:39
have to say, brokered by the Conservatives, continued by the Labour government, give credit where it's due
23:43
more than 4,300 miles. And I do need to say, before all the emails pour in again
23:48
yes, of course, just because you stopped them on a Tuesday, it doesn't mean they're not going to have another go on a Thursday
23:52
I understand that. But let's celebrate what has clearly worked, and perhaps just try and gear it up to go a little bit further
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