Up next in 10
Two Reform UK officials who were caught up in an undercover sting have stepped down from their roles in the party.
Dan Jukes, Senior aide to Nigel Farage and James Orr, Reform's Head of Policy, have both left their roles, the party confirmed this morning. Reform denies any wrongdoing.
A Reform UK spokesman said: "Reform UK has launched an investigation following the broadcast of a Channel 4 News programme.
"Both individuals involved have stepped down from their respective positions pending the outcome of the investigation.
"The party believes it is important that the investigation is allowed to proceed independently and without prejudice. No further comment will be made while the investigation is ongoing."
Reform UK chairman Lee Anderson said this morning that there is "no chance" of the pair returning to the party.
00:00 | James digs in to Channel 4's revelations
07:41 | Dom: 'Racism is a tool to build Farage's support'
13:37 | James debates caller Matt on why Reform has support
#jamesobrien #channel4 #reform #nigelfarage #undercover #ukpolitics #ukpolitics #lbc
LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK.
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0:00
He called Liz Truss's budget the best of his lifetime
0:02
He was fully behind. He was the absolute king of Brexit in this country
0:06
and he's never seen a cut to public spending he didn't like
0:11
On what possible planet do you think the people who are filling their pockets in this fashion
0:16
care about you or your daughter? They don't. They don't. What are you here for
0:21
Do I need to tell you what the story is before we get stuck into talking about it
0:25
I probably should. Various extremely close confidants and colleagues of Nigel Farage were filmed by Channel 4 News
0:33
or rather were filmed by an investigative journalist, Operation, effectively planning or apparently planning to make donations
0:43
to the party that would be against the rules, possibly, probably against the law
0:48
but they remain allegations at the moment. Nigel Farage is doing what he always does
0:52
He is wriggling and weaseling. Shall I tell you how close a contact they are? This fellow who he called a contractor on Nick Ferrari's show this morning
0:59
called Dan Jukes. I kind of recognise the name. Did a bit quick check in the office
1:04
He used to sit here when Farage was on this radio station. He used to sit next to the people
1:08
answering the phones, trying to steer the direction of the programme, or at least observing very closely
1:13
what my colleagues were trying to do on that show. That's how distant to contact he is
1:20
That's how much of a mere contractor, an outsider brought in to, I don't know
1:25
preside over some very specific issues. and James Orr, he's supposed to be the intellectual genius
1:32
at the heart of the operation. The Cambridge academic, everybody above a certain level
1:37
at Cambridge these days is called a professor. He's technically a doctor, calls himself a theologian
1:42
big on Christianity except the bits about lying. And so you know that this is a canker
1:51
that goes right to the heart of the reform operation. These people couldn't be more senior
1:56
That's the thing, isn't it? will he lose, does it matter? Because if it doesn't matter, what's going on
2:03
If it doesn't matter, what is going on? You can get your head around racism, right
2:08
It's an ugly, ugly thing, but a lot of people have it to varying degrees
2:12
It's a spectrum. I wonder whether we're all on it in some way, shape or form
2:16
We all have a sort of inbuilt evolutionary fear of the other
2:20
or whatever it is that explains this curious condition. but, you know, we're raised, if you're lucky enough to be raised by decent parents
2:28
not to indulge those prejudices, not to inflame those bigotries, not to articulate those hatreds
2:35
Some people are raised differently. Some people rise differently. And you can get your head around that
2:42
Why on earth do you hate people who weren't born here? Zia Yusuf, whose parents weren't born here
2:48
Why on earth do you hate people who weren't born here? Well, I don't... I mean, they frighten me
2:54
They don't look like... You can almost get your head around a fear of the other, right
3:01
And you look over the Atlantic and you see people who are supremely comfortable
3:04
with a very real possibility that Donald Trump is doing the bidding of the Kremlin
3:09
You don't have to go over the Atlantic. You've got the Daily Mail columnists and others
3:13
You've got Dick Littlejohn going on about how he wishes Donald Trump was ruling this country when almost every expert in the field, proper expert
3:21
makes a compelling case for him being a Kremlin stooge. Or at the very least, no one can answer the question
3:26
of what he would do differently if he wasn't doing the bidding of Vladimir Putin
3:33
Answer nothing. He wouldn't do anything differently. And people still don't care
3:38
It's racism that big. Is it that big that you're sitting there today
3:44
and you're thinking, yeah, he took five million quid, secretly. I was furious about
3:49
Keir Starmer's spectacles, but good old Nigel, he's got five million quid in his back pocket
3:52
which was donated secretly by someone who's set to make an absolute, sorry
3:57
several more absolute fortunes in the event of Nigel Farage becoming Prime Minister. How do we know that? Because they
4:02
literally published the policies that would make Christopher Harbourn considerably richer than he is now
4:08
and then when news of the five million pound donation emerged, they deleted them
4:12
from their website. Oh, it's a witch hunt. Oh, why are they all
4:16
attacking Nigel. Oh, it doesn't matter. Is it just, is it really
4:20
just racism? Is that all you get in return for not caring about this kind of conduct
4:27
You're sitting there this morning going, right, okay, um, uh, flip, um, it's a witch
4:34
hunt. They're attacking him. It's not fair. They're contractors. No laws have been
4:38
brought, I don't know. What are you doing it for? What are you clinging to
4:44
It's so strange. It's so strange. What are you clinging to when you defend this guy
4:53
Or when you pretend, or when you kid yourself, or when you tell yourself that this isn't important
4:57
Is racism really that big? Or is there something else going on here
5:04
Is that the question? Is that the question today? I think it probably is, isn't it
5:12
03456060973. I mean the person in your life that is in this category
5:18
the person you've got I'm reluctant to tell you exactly who it was
5:22
if I haven't already but someone, one of the people I grew up loving
5:26
more than almost anyone else in the world one of my godparents
5:31
would have been at that conference in Birmingham today I last saw him at my own father's funeral
5:38
I tried to steer clear of politics obviously but he be there today and I hate the idea I mean surely he must They must have been getting something else out of this
5:49
They must have been. But I can't see what. I can't see what
5:54
What else are you getting? Farage aid and policy chief step down
5:58
So the official party line is already... They're stepping down while we mark our own homework
6:02
30p Lee goes on the telly this morning and says, oh, no, they won't be coming back. They can't even get their own story straight
6:07
they are so utterly ridiculous so monumentally incompetent that you sit here
6:12
as even a vaguely sentient human being and wonder what the hell
6:17
he would have to do they would have to do for that spell to be broken
6:23
that spell that has entranced your mum or that spell who's got your uncle Bob on a string
6:28
or that spell that you're under while arguing furiously with the arrogant condescending prat on the radio
6:34
that there's any spell here at all It's not a spell. I just want to change
6:38
It's not a spell. I just... I've had enough of the two-party system
6:42
So, OK. A two-party system. You're just not telling yourself the truth, are you
6:48
It's just not that you're telling the truth. And, you know, it's not even the bigotry or the racism
6:58
that makes you have a patriotic desire not to see him ever get into Downing Street
7:02
It's just the obvious incompetence and all the alleged corruption. You are either a mug or a billionaire set to make a ton of money if you want Nigel Farage to be Prime Minister, right
7:12
And it's really easy to work out which you are. Are you a mug or are you a billionaire poised to make a ton of money out of policies that he is already promising to introduce
7:20
Just check your bank balance. That's all you've got to do. Go to your ATM
7:25
Check your bank balance. Don't tell me your pin. Punch it in. Have a look at your bank balance
7:28
work out whether you're a mug or whether or not you are set to make a ton of money
7:34
out of Nigel Farage's political success. Dom's on the wirral. Dom, what would you like to say
7:42
First of all, happy Friday, James. Go on, Dom, fill your boots
7:48
Just before we start, Nick Ferrari this morning, I thought he was absolutely outstanding
7:53
So did I. He had nailed jelly to the wall. Absolutely. One of his best pieces for a long time. Yes, I completely agree
7:58
That's why we're re-enjoying it at length. Absolutely. I think we're talking about the people that are still..
8:07
I think we're still talking about the people that will still support reform no matter what
8:12
They're sinking slowly in the polls as people are having scale... Some people are having the scales pulled from their eyes
8:18
There's always going to be a hardcore 14% to 16%, I'd say
8:23
of people that are, some of them racists, and quite a few of them are probably..
8:27
I think we've talked about this before, people that have now got the sunken cost fallacy
8:31
that they've invested so much of their personal beliefs and persona into supporting reform and anti-establishment, etc.
8:39
that they can't ever admit they were wrong. Unfortunately, they're lost. And they're, I mean, in a way
8:46
they're the people populating my inbox with sort of Farage-flavoured versions of Trump derangement syndrome
8:53
They have to shoot the messenger. They have no choice because the alternative is to realise
8:56
they've shot both their own feet off. Also, when we Nigel packs up and buggers off because
9:03
he gets a bit too much in the pan for him, these are the same people that will go
9:07
and join Rupert Lowe's later outfits. Well, the worst ones will. The worst ones will. I remain
9:13
fascinated, perhaps naively so, by people for whom the racism can go too far
9:19
Do you see what I mean? That's why I said, in good faith, at the top of the show, if you can remember
9:23
back that far, I said in good faith it's a spectrum right racism is a spectrum you know at one end you've got your
9:28
nazis and at the other end you've got someone who's just a little bit uncomfortable if they're
9:32
walking through a car park at night and a couple of black lads come out of the lift you know it's
9:37
it's a it's an ethnic based it's a race based response but they are not the kind of people
9:43
that are going to be talking about deporting their next door neighbors so it is a spectrum
9:47
and i just don't know where people sit on it do you know what i mean i don't know how you tell
9:51
really, except that the more time passes and the more accepted and
9:55
normalised it becomes, the more blatant people are about, you know, hating seeing black
10:01
faces in Birmingham, if you're honest, Bob Jenrick, or not wanting brown faces on
10:05
television adverts, if you're Sarah Pochin. Both, of course, reform MPs. I think the problem is that
10:11
reform and the MAGA movement over in the States started from a base, and they thought, who can we
10:19
corral now that will believe us, and who can we get to follow us no matter what
10:23
And they thought racism, I believe racism is a tool that was used
10:28
or is being used continually to get a firm base on board
10:32
to build a political movement from. Which is an act, which is a programme of self-enrichment
10:39
Why on earth do they want to be empowered just to get richer? I think Mussolini talked probably most persuasively
10:44
about the relationship between fascism and business. So you've seen all the business people bend the knee
10:49
I don't know how racist they are, but racism is a tool that they can use
10:53
or Donald Trump's racist rhetoric is a tool that they can use
10:57
to get a tighter hold on power, and the tighter the hold on power, the more money they will make
11:02
Exactly. I don't think these big billionaires are racists, or most of them hope aren't racists
11:08
but from Brexit onward, Brexit was about removing European regulations on business and rich people
11:13
Don't understand, it's in the news today. You've got an American politician saying today they haven't used their freedoms
11:18
and you think, what are these freedoms? Well, they're still abiding by European regulations when they
11:22
could be buying American stuff that is measurably less safe and measurably less healthy That the freedom they sold to people like Graham unfortunately when they voted for Brexit He thought he was getting an improvement to his life whereas in fact it was a diminishment of his existence
11:35
that would involve profits for the people behind the punting of the project
11:41
And now the right wing are also going after the European Court of Human Rights, louder and louder, to remove more people's rights
11:46
After that goes, it'll be workers' rights. After that goes, it'll be any kind of right at all
11:52
it'll be the dollar's king and we'll have shanty towns like in los angeles unfortunately um
11:57
and and what so nothing and nothing breaks the spell this is the thing i find most fascinating
12:04
nothing breaks the spell and that can't be true because you can see the polling move and you can
12:10
see the personal approval ratings plummet and you can see that a plurality or rather sorry the two
12:15
words that the british public most commonly associate with nigel farage are racist and liar
12:20
but what that means is that the people who still support him are cool with that
12:27
You know better than I do how few individuals own around 70 or 80% of the UK media
12:32
and similar things happening in the States. Everything's being consolidated. The message is being controlled
12:39
I sound like a mad conspiracy theorist. No, you don't. No, of course you don't. You don't
12:43
I mean, you might have done once, but I mean, how else do you explain the fact that 80 odd percent of the British public
12:48
are in support of renationalisation and public ownership of utilities, when you would think that the figure was exactly the other way round
12:55
if you were relying on right-wing media. And why do these columnists and commentators keep bigging up Farage
13:00
One of them, it's probably Dick Littlejohn, I actually can't remember on this occasion, I think compared him to a Spitfire pilot once
13:07
It's weird, right? I mean, it's up there with calling him Daddy. But what are they getting out of it
13:12
What is it that is impressive about Donald Trump, who, of course, absolute disaster as US President
13:20
or Nigel Farage, up to his ears in allegations of everything from schoolboy anti-Semitism
13:24
right through to illegal financial dealings, allegations. And still you sit there going
13:30
oh, yeah, but he's better than Keir Starmer because he took some glasses, the pesky lawyer
13:36
Thank you, Don. Matt, what's going on? James, this is an honour. I've finally got through to you
13:40
Well, you're very welcome. Let's hope I don't spoil it. Oh, you probably will, to be honest
13:44
No, when you talk about the reform voters, now, not all of them are extreme racists
13:51
Not all of them are diluted racists. What you've got is, for years and years
13:56
and we've had parties, the Labour, Conservative, Lib Dems, they have failed
14:02
They can't do the job. The country's failing. It is failing. They are gaslighting us to the rooftop, James
14:10
saying about the military, that they're pumping more and more money into it, but then they're cancelling funds for training
14:17
My daughter's school, the council, this year, stopped 19 grand's worth of funding for sports clubs
14:26
They're on about kids getting fat and obese. But the government's not doing nothing about it
14:30
The government is... I mean, you're talking about the consequences... I just want to point something out
14:36
You're talking about the consequences of austerity and Brexit, which are both right-wing creations
14:42
that Nigel Farage approved of completely. He called Liz Truss's budget the best of his lifetime
14:47
He was fully behind. He was the absolute king of Brexit in this country
14:51
and he's never seen a cut to public spending he didn't like
14:56
So how on earth does he become the answer to the problems that you describe
15:00
He's not the answer. So I don't believe he is. He's saying what everyone wants to hear
15:06
But he's also responsible for most of the problems you're describing or at least supportive of the policies that brought them in
15:12
I know, but when you've got Labour, take Labour for instance, and when they are cutting left, right and centre
15:21
and they're not putting in to the infrastructure properly, so take the triple lock, why don't they just stop it
15:29
But you're not talking about reform anymore. Reform aren't promising to get rid of it
15:33
So I'm trying to work out how you can be supportive of this party if you're not either approving of or comfortable with all the racism
15:40
And you're not really telling me. I'm a taxpayer, James. I'm a taxpayer. I don't feel like I'm getting anything from my money
15:46
Do you pay a lot of tax? Not on a paid benefit. Do you pay a lot of tax
15:50
I do, yeah. So the country's not failing. The country's not failing then, is it
15:54
Because you're still making a mint. I am, but that's because of the industry I've decided to go into
16:00
Is that industry in this country? Yeah, okay. The country's not completely failing
16:07
It's not going to crumble. So I'm doing so well. I hate paying taxes because some people aren't doing..
16:13
No, no, no, I haven't said I hate paying taxes, James. What is it then? Because the only way you're going to spend more money on your daughter's school
16:20
the only way you're going to spend more money on the army, the only way you're going to spend more money on all the things you want more money to be spent on
16:25
is if you and me pay more taxes. So reform the benefits system
16:31
You did just say you weren't going to talk about that. OK, OK, I won't talk about that
16:36
No, you can. And I'm just pointing out that you're on fairly thin ice
16:40
Okay. Ask me something else. Where's the money going to come from to pay for all the things
16:46
that you think should be paid for if it's not going to come from taxpayers? If it's not going to come from taxpayers
16:52
Well, it's going to have to come from reforming the corporation tax
16:57
and all that, you know, increased corporation tax, all that sort of stuff. That's the opposite of reform's policy
17:02
Reform are going to lower it. Well, do you know what? Yeah
17:09
I don know But you here to tell me that you kind of could see yourself voting for them No I know Do you know what I was here to tell you James The reason people vote The kid and Mr Harriers are going to beat Wielston tomorrow
17:21
No, the reason people are voting reform and the reason that they won't divert themselves away from voting
17:28
it's because the traditional parties have failed, James. You've got to get that straight because they're constantly failing
17:34
I mean, austerity and Brexit have crippled the country. Keir Starmer didn't do a quick enough job of turning things around
17:43
But you can't say, I mean, you can explain it, and I think you're right
17:47
I think that's a very widespread perception among people who are going to vote for the biggest arsonist of them all
17:52
The country's on fire, let's vote for an arsonist. What did you feel when you saw the footage
17:57
or when you heard today's reports of the filming last night? Just all this constant cosying up to foreign billionaires
18:02
what's that all about? That's not about putting money in the pocket of your daughter's school
18:07
My eyes are kind of like what I just explained to you
18:11
about the traditional parties being a failure and they're not making the country any better than what it has been
18:18
Is come on, let's try something new. That's why Andy Burnham's in Downing Street
18:23
That's why Andy Burnham's in Downing Street. And yeah, you're right. That is exactly. Brexit was supposed to be
18:28
oh, I've had enough of the way things are. Let's do something different. We've got nothing to lose. Turns out we had quite a lot to lose, Matt
18:33
and we lost it. Do we need someone like Rupert Lowe in charge
18:37
Well, and he'll deport your neighbours. No, no, no. I don't believe that reform will actually go ahead
18:45
with half of what they say. I do believe... Well, then they're entirely untrustworthy
18:51
I know. Well, are you here to tell me, mate? I mean, I'm glad you got through
18:55
and I'm enjoying our exchange, but what exactly are you here to tell me
18:58
Is there something that you're a bit shy of revealing? Because what we've done effectively is say that you're not impressed by the two parties
19:04
albeit that the major problems the country faces have been created by austerity and Brexit
19:09
but somehow reform are going to be the answer to these problems because they're not going to actually do all the things
19:13
that they said they were going to do. So, well, you've just minced me words completely there
19:19
But... I think you'll find out the precede them. Go on. If you were actually listening
19:23
if you actually take the cotton wool out your ear and actually listen, I actually said what I was meant to say
19:29
is that the reformed voters, they've seen failure year after year after year
19:34
and they can't see any hope with Labour, Conservatives, Lib Dems. So they are turning to the other side
19:41
Just like Brexit? Yes, just like Brexit. And how did that go
19:46
It's going to be a failure. You don't know where it's going to be a failure. Probably 95% chance it will fail
19:52
but people are turning because it's just... And then you ask them what they think they're going to get
19:58
What do they say? Or I'll ask you, What do you think you're going to get if you vote reform? If I vote reform, hopefully what Zahusif has been spacing online
20:08
Hopefully what Nigel Fried has been spacing out online. What, you want that
20:14
Not all of it. Which bit do you want? I want the NHS to be reformed
20:20
I want the benefit system to be reformed. Sorry to bring that back in
20:24
You can bring it back in. I just pointed out you said you weren't going to. I know you're a hardworking taxpayer in a failing country doing very well like me
20:30
but what exactly do you think that reform would involve? I want a country that works
20:34
We all want that, mate. What do you think that would look... How are you going to do that by enriching the people
20:40
that are giving Nigel Farage millions of pounds? On what possible planet do you think the people who are filling their pockets
20:47
in this fashion care about you or your daughter? They don't. They don't
20:52
What are you here for? So, I... I told you what my..
20:58
I'm not listening. I've listened to every bloody syllable, man. I've repeated it back to you and you've got the hump with me
21:06
Listen, I'm going to let you... It's been a pleasure. Do you want to introduce the news? Just say, here's Dominic Ellis with the headlines
21:11
Here's Dominic Ellis with the headlines. Thank you
21:53
Thank you
22:23
Thank you
22:53
Thank you
#news