Up next in 10
Andy Burnham has vowed to set out a new direction for Britain as he arrived for his first Labour conference as Prime Minister.
00:00 Political commentators Aubrey Allegretti and Ailbhe Rea join Lewis Goodall live from Liverpool.
07:07 Backbench MPs Chris Curtis and Emily Thornberry enter the fray.
The Prime Minister promised to set the UK on a new course because the decade since the Brexit vote had resulted in "drift and division".
Mr Burnham said: "We're going to make this a really important week where we set out a new direction for the country.
"We've had a decade since Brexit and it's been a decade of too much drift, too much division, and we need to draw a line on that."
He said his vision would leave "people able to have hope again that things will improve, that life will get better - and it will".
Earlier, Mr Burnham acknowledged he and the Chancellor John Healey face a "challenging" set of circumstances at the Budget, and said it was "crucial" to stabilise the public finances to put his agenda on a good footing.
The Iran War and other global turmoil has continued to push up borrowing costs and limit Mr Burnham's room for manoeuvre ahead of the October 28 fiscal event.
Speaking ahead of the conference, the Prime Minister said he would be able to take tough choices to maintain the public finances, but insisted he could also bring about radical change.
"The public would have more respect for us if we go and grab something difficult ... and say, 'right, we're going to do something here', rather than constantly playing the political game before fixing the problems.
"It's challenging, definitely, but there are still things that you can do. Always in politics, there are things that you can do. The question is sometimes: Are you prepared to do them? Yeah, I am prepared to do them," he told The Guardian.
"It's challenging, definitely, but there are still things that you can do. Always in politics, there are things that you can do. The question is sometimes: Are you prepared to do them? Yeah, I am prepared to do them."
Asked about the need for a buffer against his spending plans, the so-called fiscal headroom, Mr Burnham said: "I do think it is crucial to have stability and to show that there's a willingness to face up to the reality of some of these difficult things.
"But actually from that stability, the permission can come to make bigger change that, in the end, could put the country in a stronger position in relation to the public finances."
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0:00
Real hard stuff is still to come, of course, which is the budget
0:03
That's the thing that everyone in the public will be listening to. How much does this conference matter as a moment in his political calendar as Prime Minister so far
0:09
Massively. I mean, he obviously had a sort of... It will be a hero's welcome for him at the start
0:14
This time last year, all of us journalists were sort of following him around. He was the king over the water, sort of desperately banging on the door of Number 10
0:20
Although it looked like he'd lost the crown permanently at the time, didn't it? In the way that he left the conference completely diminished, and yet here we are
0:26
But, I mean, so much of what he was talking about at the time was this sort of radical restructuring of the state
0:30
I remember being at rallies where he was talking about changing the voting system from first past the post to some form of proportional representation
0:37
And so, I suppose, coming out of this conference, it's not going to be hard for him to sort of please a lot of the activists here
0:42
The big test is basically proving that he's got the mettle to sort of stand up to some of the big challenges coming down the line at the budget
0:48
And, of course, you've got things like the Melbourne Review looking into NEAT
0:52
You've got the Tim's review, which will come fully looking into welfare cuts
0:57
The budget is going to be done before some of those big sort of flashpoint moments
1:01
And so the amount of money he's got to play with will actually sort of not really be fixed
1:05
because some of those big challenges are yet to face him. So I think a lot of his MPs are looking at him saying, look, just sort of get through this moment
1:12
But they want him to succeed. And his big challenge over the next five weeks is keeping them all in check
1:18
What do you think? What does a win for Burnham look like at the end of this week? I mean, he's clearly won because he's where he is
1:23
which seems so unlikely even a few months ago. So what does he get or can get
1:28
which is a sort of net gain by the end of the week? That's an interesting question because, you know
1:32
you were saying, well, what does he need out of this? I think that in a way it maybe seems less important to the public
1:38
than it does to him. I mean, if you speak to people in number 10, they think there are sort of three key moments until Christmas
1:44
and this is the first. The next one is the budget and then he's outlining his tenure plan
1:50
after that. So this is the first big moment that we've had from Andy Burnham since he became
1:55
Prime Minister in the way he and his team see it. But really I think
1:59
the task is just to project good vibes and then a bit beyond that probably to
2:05
show that he stands for something articulate his message to the country
2:09
I feel like as journalists we've heard it quite a lot now, you know the whole way through Makerfield
2:13
etc, but to project that to the country so that no one can be in any doubt
2:17
what he believes, what he stands for which was often the criticism levelled at Keir Starmer
2:21
I mean, there's no doubt that, I mean, if we think about the counterfactual, where
2:25
Starmer had clung on, I mean, this would feel like a very different conference. It would feel way more
2:29
disputatious. The factions would be all out for everyone to see. And at the moment, at least, and that's perhaps inevitable
2:35
it at least feels pretty united, but how united do you actually think the Labour Party is right now
2:40
Ooh, uh, I'd say broadly united, but there are just some interesting characters
2:45
around the edge. Just already, just making themselves heard here. Yeah, I mean, a lot of them are the former Starmerite cabinet ministers who no longer have jobs
2:56
Weird, that. Who come from the centre, right of the Labour Party
3:00
Darren Jones, Peter Kyle, we've already heard from them. And maybe someone like Steve Reid
3:06
There are a few people like that. Obviously, Keir Starmer is not going to be an MP anymore
3:10
Rachel Reeves, I don't think any of us have seen her. But, you know, there are people like Peter Kyle and Darren Jones around the edges
3:17
who articulate what I think some Labour members do feel which was it just wasn't very nice to replace
3:23
their leader. A lot of them feel quite instinctively loyal to the leader and they've transferred
3:27
the loyalty to Andy Burnham but there still some resentments And as a matter of fact we were talking a lot about Burnham speech on Tuesday Of course we got a big moment tomorrow which is the Chancellor speech John Healy first as Chancellor obviously
3:40
and a sort of remarkable moment in some ways. I mean, I think if we'd all been sat here a year ago
3:44
looking at Rachel Reeves' speech and saying it would be John Healy giving that speech next year
3:49
it would have seemed pretty unlikely, even more unlikely after he delivered that extraordinary letter
3:53
which probably finished Starmer off in the end, saying he wasn't keeping the country safe. What do you think he's going to be looking to do tomorrow, the Chancellor
3:58
Yeah, obviously, like Alva says, I think the government and Number 10 just want to get through this and they want to essentially come out
4:06
That sounds good, doesn't it? Let's just get to the end of the week. But they don't want to be making too many waves
4:11
They also want to be giving direction of travel. They obviously want to be coming out of this conference and people knowing what Burnhamism is and knowing what the direction of travel for this government is going to be without making any waves
4:23
without having any huge policy debates or sort of, you know, rounds
4:26
even though we basically already have one with the migration and what Angela Rania was saying to you earlier, Lewis
4:31
about there being no splits there. There is a split there, but she just believes that she's on the right side of it
4:35
because that's what Shabana Mahmood is going to do, she thinks. But yes, I think that John Healy's speech is going to be a really interesting moment
4:44
I'm told there is going to be some policy in it, but behind the scenes is where this is all going to happen
4:48
And I was told that essentially John Healy is going to be spending his conference
4:52
mostly locked inside a room with all of those budget decisions, looking at them, making the final decisions
4:57
about which of them are going to go forward or not. And that's actually going to be really where the bigger moment comes
5:03
from those three that you just mentioned there, Alva. The budget is going to be the biggest, I think, of those three
5:08
because it's going to show not what Burnhamism is and what he wants it to be
5:12
but the reality of what Burnhamism can be within the constraints that he has in
5:16
Well, Alva, you talk about those three moments, which I think are clear. I suppose there is a possibility, isn't there
5:20
of, to do the Rumsfeld thing about some known unknowns, of a fourth, which is the Hoban and St Pancras by-election
5:28
which, you know, I think, as you all do, talk to Labour people, I think they're reasonably confident
5:33
they'll keep it, but if the Greens were to pull off an upset for whatever reason, I mean, that would really change
5:38
the board quite substantially. I mean, all the momentum that we've seen for the Burnham project, it would dissipate quite fast
5:45
Oh, for sure. I mean, and, you know, incumbent governments lose by-election
5:50
is the thing, but it's hard to, you know, in a way Andy Burnham doesn't want to be seen as an incumbent
5:57
He wants to be seen as brand new, enjoying his early bounds. So it could be quite damaging
6:02
and I think it just would maybe embolden a lot of people to push Burnham to go further to the left
6:08
even though there's a kind of strange thing at the moment where he basically is further to the left than Keir Starmer already
6:14
and the pressure on him is actually from the right of the party now
6:18
but I think you would find more pressure on him in all directions and also just on what Natasha was saying about the budget
6:23
and that being the real story behind the scenes here. I also think that the unions might try to pile the pressure on John Healy
6:31
over the next few days. They basically want tax cuts for working people
6:36
as well as tax increases on banks and so on. They'll all be suggesting their ideas quite helpfully over the next few days
6:43
Very helpful. Yeah, so I think that will also be a theme. There is a lot of pressure, I mean, from left-wing Labour MPs
6:50
for Burnham to be much more stringent, right, and set out much firmer wealth taxes
6:55
and sort of move the dial away from income taxes. The Manchin tax, decreasing it from £2 million to £1.5 million
7:01
they think it's a step in the right direction, but they want something bolder and that is actually going to reform the system rather than kind of tinkering around the edges What your sense of where the Labour Party is now with the electorates versus where it was when Keir Starmer left office Oh it completely different
7:16
I mean, I've also spent the last few weeks with a by-election in my patch, so knocking and speaking to many people
7:21
We've got an 11-point swing just in that one by-election in my seat
7:25
to the Labour Party from reform. And we're seeing a big shift in the polls
7:28
right across the country. Is it that big? I mean, what is it? In the latest poll, I think, from Warren Commons
7:33
I think up four points nationally compared to where it was with Keir Starmer. I would take that given where we were before
7:39
You've changed the Prime Minister. You can't do it again. You've played your big card and you're up four points
7:44
But also, Lewis, it's not just about those polling numbers. It's about the favourability numbers
7:48
It's about the brand numbers that we've seen in the Labour Party and all of those moving in the right direction
7:51
because Andy has reset the relationship between the party and the country and he has given people that breathing space that he promised
7:58
with some of the policies that we introduced over the summer. That's gone down well with voters
8:02
Now, though, the bigger challenge between now and the next general election in a few years' time, as Andy said
8:08
is to fix a lot of those more fundamental structural problems that face our country that are holding our economy and our public services
8:14
And do you think you've got the time and the ideas to do that? I mean, it's three years. I mean, you could argue the most productive part of the Parliament's gone
8:20
The next general election, it might be three years away, but it will quickly hover into view. All parts of the Parliament are productive
8:26
Really? Yeah, absolutely. We're going to get on with fixing many of these problems. And, you know, I do think he's got the ideas
8:31
In my view, one of the biggest things that's holding Britain back is the fact that too much power is centralised in Westminster and Whitehall
8:39
The bit of the British state that controls the nuclear weapons also decides funding for colleges right across the country
8:45
That is bonkers, and it's not the way they do it across the rest of the country. And you're happy with the inevitable inequality between areas that evolution inevitably creates
8:53
We need to be pushing power downwards closer to people. But you're comfortable as a Labour politician devolving more and more power away from the central state, which you control
9:02
despite the fact that, as you know, that will inevitably lead to greater inequality between places and regions
9:07
I think everywhere will go up compared to what we have at the moment, because the bit of the state that controls nuclear weapons..
9:13
That hasn't happened with Scotland. It hasn't happened with Wales. There's no evidence that devolution has boosted growth in those places
9:19
That is not particularly true. Really? I mean, the fastest growing bit of the country in recent years has been Greater Manchester
9:24
since it got the Combined Authority. the biggest Scotland is one of the most powerful parliaments in Europe
9:30
sub-national parliaments in Europe it hasn't grown any faster than it did before devolution you are going to have to let me answer the question Lewis
9:34
the biggest growing bit of the country at the turn of the century was London after it got devolution
9:38
if you look at if you were to chart countries so you put on one axis
9:44
the percentage of tax revenue that is gained at a sub-national level
9:48
effectively how much of it is gained at regional or local levels rather than all being
9:52
hoarded by central government and then you look at medium wages on the other axis, it shows a correlation
9:57
It shows that the more fiscal devolution you push downwards, the more tax-raising powers you push downwards
10:02
the better an economy does. And that's been pretty clear. Most of the academic research shows the same thing on that
10:08
Emily Thornberry, there is an important by-election coming up, not so far away from you in Islington, Hobart and St Pancras
10:15
It was Keir Starmer's parting gift as Labour Party leader to his party
10:21
How confident are you that Labour's going to win? Because, of course, if that Polanski were to win there
10:26
then, as the Green Party leader, then that would be... All this momentum would very quickly dissipate
10:30
for the Labour Party, wouldn't it? I think it's important that we win it. I don't know
10:35
I mean all I can tell you is from my own experience So I been canvassing there a couple of times Yeah and one of the times was like on the other side of the road to my constituency so I do kind of you know I feel like it like
10:48
it's not quite the same as my patch but it's very similar to my patch and one of the things is lots
10:55
of people in in flats in houses and it's quite difficult to kind of get to speak to people but
11:00
there was one woman for example that I spoke to and she said oh I can't really tell you who I'm
11:06
voting for but all i can say is me and my daughters always think it should be women first
11:11
so that was good enough for me um i think some of the conversations that we're having it's the other
11:17
conversations i've had is like people are saying i had i've been represented by the prime minister
11:22
before now so who is this new person that you're putting forward so it's that's you know it's
11:27
difficult conversations that uh that we have but it's important that we have them because
11:31
people want to know. They want to know if they're going to have someone
11:36
if they're not going to have the Prime Minister as their MP anymore, they want to know what the choices are
11:40
Were you disappointed that the former Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, stepped down
11:44
having said he'd see out the Parliament as MP for Hobart and St Pancras? I genuinely think that when he said that, he meant it
11:50
But I think that by the time you spin so much, I think, as Prime Minister
11:55
it's impossible for the two of us to really reckon, you know, to even imagine kind of what the pressure that the Prime Minister's under
12:00
and then suddenly you're not and you're on holiday with your children and your partner
12:05
and your priorities perhaps click back into a better alignment and maybe at that stage he had an opportunity
12:12
to think about it and just went you know what, I'm done He said that he would like a job
12:17
he's indicated to people close to him that he would like a job
12:22
on the international scene Do you think there would be a space for him? Do you think there's a space for him to make that contribution
12:28
I think his contribution internationally was really important. And I think his recognition levels and his respect are very high
12:36
So I don't know what jobs we're talking about. But yes, I mean, of course, he's a strong candidate
12:42
Just on the by-election, because I think it links into the theme of this conference
12:46
One of the things that we messed up as a party was losing hope
12:52
We stopped being the party of hope. And the Greens, particularly around the time of that Gorton and Denton by-election, which they won
12:57
They took that from us. They became the party of hope. And what we have to do
13:02
and what I think we're going to set out over this conference, is how even in difficult times, and these are difficult times
13:08
we've got difficult geopolitical circumstances, we've got an economy that's been struggling to grow for quite some time
13:12
even in those difficult times, we, proud Labour Party, can never stop being the party of hope
13:20
And I hope we can prove over this conference that we are still that and then go on to win the by-election as a consequence
13:25
Same old, same old that we always have in politics, which is when you're in opposition, you can say so much and you can promise so much because you're never going to need to deliver it
13:35
And if you're in government, then it is more difficult. But when you're in government, I think the trick is, is to be positive and to have a plan
13:44
And that is what I think in the end we were lacking and we have been lacking
13:49
We've been very good at ysing the problems and then saying it's all very hard
13:53
and not really being able to come forward with the solutions. That's what we need to be able to do
13:58
And just finally, on your area, Emily Thornbrick, should we be worried about a possible diesel export ban
14:03
from the United States? President Trump has indicated... I mean, that would be pretty catastrophic
14:07
certainly for British agriculture and parts of the British economy, wouldn't it, because we import so much from the US
14:12
Yes, we should be worried about that. I think the selfishness of this president knows no end
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