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The Government has relaxed sanctions on Russian crude oil, allowing for the import of jet fuel and diesel refined in third countries amid surging costs. A trade licence, which came into effect on Wednesday, permits the imports “indefinitely”. According to the licence, the sanctions carve-out will be periodically reviewed as fuel prices rise due to the closure of the Strait of Hormuz and the ongoing crisis in the Middle East. However, trade minister Chris Bryant says most people have got it wrong, and that this decision will not be handing Putin an advantage, what's the truth? 00:00 | Energy economist Nick Bryant and David Whitehouse say we must support our own industries first, and support the sanctions being relaxed 05:39 | Trade Minister Chris Bryant and Shadow Energy Minister Claire Coutinho join Andrew for a fiery debate on the subject #andrewmarr #russia #ukraine #ukrainewar #putin #zelensky #sanctions #starmer #debate #ukpolitics #lbc
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0:00
Is the government undermining Ukraine by buying dirty Russian oil while refusing new licenses in the North Sea, as Kemi Beidnok, the Conservative leader, told the Commons today
0:11
Or is it in fact tightening sanctions on Russia, as Keir Starmer says
0:16
Now, this is a question about government honesty and competence, and so it really matters
0:22
What is the truth? Well, there are new regulations which increase the sanctions on Russia, including oil
0:28
Starmer is right about that. But the government can suspend any ban and is doing so for some oil
0:36
refined outside Russia, for instance, jet fuel from India. So Bainock's point about helping Putin
0:42
is also valid, even if the aim is to help British holidaymakers fly this summer. But let's get a
0:50
definitive explanation from two oil experts holding a big energy security conference soon
0:54
in London. They are David Whitehouse, CEO of Offshore Energies UK, and Nick Butler
0:59
formerly senior advisor to Gordon Brown and a group vice president at BP. Were they worried
1:05
about the new legislation that would end future licenses in the North Sea
1:10
We want to see that balanced approach to energy. In the UK, 75% of our energy comes from oil and
1:16
gas. We produce about half of our demand. Absolutely, we know we're going to be using
1:22
oil and gas for decades to come. The question is, should we produce it ourselves? Should we support
1:27
our own jobs? Should we support our own communities? Should we support value in our own economy and
1:31
taxes? Or should we import it with none of that? The answer surely is, let's support our own
1:36
industries. Nick, let me turn to the consequences of relying so much on imported energy. There's
1:41
been a big, big row today between the parties about importing Russian oil and gas, which has
1:47
been refined elsewhere, perhaps in India, for instance. Is this going to be a long-running
1:52
political soar? I think it is going to be a long-running political soar. I think the government's
1:56
original intention, which was to join Europe in tightening sanctions on Russia, has been
2:02
undermined by the fact that we are short of jet fuel and diesel. We and the rest of Europe have
2:08
relied for far too long on imported refined products from the Gulf, particularly of jet fuel
2:15
and diesel and now those products have stopped flowing. Now, after 11 weeks of the blockade
2:23
we need to find jet fuel and diesel from wherever we can get it and that has clearly, as we've seen
2:30
in the Commons today, undermined what the government are actually trying to do, which is to put more
2:35
pressure on Russia. So to put it again very simply, Nick Butler, who is going to be the happier with
2:41
this set of announcements? Vladimir Putin or Zelensky? I think it's inevitably Mr. Putin
2:47
This shows where power lies, and it lies with those who have the resources to supply what we
2:53
and other countries need. And with most of the spare capacity in the world trapped behind the
2:59
blockade of Hormuz, Russia is one of the few potential sources of additional supply at the
3:06
moment. So we're going to see more of this kind of embarrassment to come. I would be amazed if
3:11
there isn't now a general re-engagement, not just from Britain, but with other countries
3:16
And I don't agree with it, but I think it's an inevitable reality now
3:21
So to put it in very crude simple terms not crude oil terms but just crude terms Kemi Badenoch says you are loosening sanctions on Russia Keir Starmer says no no no I not I tightening sanctions on Russia Which of them is right He tightening sanctions overall but our absolute need for these products
3:39
for jet fuel and diesel, have overridden that tightening. And I think that shows that we haven't paid enough attention to energy security
3:47
and we haven't paid enough attention to the decline in the refining sector in this country
3:52
which should, in normal times, be able to produce some of these products for use here
3:58
Because, David, the government's argument is that there's no point in talking about the crude oil coming out of the North Sea
4:04
because that can't be used for jet fuel anyway. We're talking about the refined products
4:08
But is the answer to that, we can't do it because we haven't got the refineries? I think so. I think, as Nick said, we've seen that demise of our refining industry
4:16
And actually, I'm speaking at the Fuels UK conference tomorrow on exactly those issues
4:20
But what it comes back to, I think, that importance for secure economies
4:25
You need to have a line of sight to your own energy production and your own key fuels
4:29
which again is the reason why we produce our own oil and gas in the North Sea
4:33
That supports not just those jobs and that value in our economy, but actually is the feedstock for our chemical industry, our fuels industry, our pharmaceutical industry
4:41
critical in such volatile times. Final question. I was listening very carefully to Prime Minister's questions and Keir Starmer's answers on this
4:48
and he was very ready. He said multiple times that oil and gas would carry on
4:53
being part of the mix for many years to come, but he would not specifically answer Kemme Bainock's point
4:58
about why are you closing down future licences. If you were Ed Miliband, would you be worried about that silence
5:05
I think Ed Miliband should now reconsider the realities of the situation
5:09
This is not about personalities. It is about the difficult situation that we've got into
5:15
I think clearly in these circumstances we should be maximizing production. As David said, both of renewables, which means expanding the grid
5:24
electrifying the economy, that is a good thing to do, but it's not instant
5:30
And for the moment, we rely for 75% of our energy consumption
5:34
every day on oil and gas. We should be maximizing our own production
5:39
All right. Nick, David, thank you both very, very much indeed for coming in. Thank you
5:43
So now let's go back to the politics of all of this. Chris Bryant, as trade minister, understands all about the sanctions regimes, but also Britain's domestic vulnerabilities
5:52
And Claire Coutinho is Shadow Secretary of State for Energy Security. Let me start with you, Claire
5:58
Kemi Badenoch told the Commons that sanctions were being loosened against Russia
6:02
I have read all the documents, and it's quite clear that across the board there are more sanctions against Russia
6:08
oil, rare minerals, uranium and so forth. I mean, they're there in black and white
6:12
across the board, we are tightening the sanctions regime, are we not? What she was talking about is that these sanctions were put in place in October 25
6:20
Overall, there's been a tightening of sanctions. But in this particular case for jet fuel and diesel
6:26
last night, they waived those sanctions. They put an indefinite sort of pause on them because
6:32
reality has bitten. They realized we need these things and they're not able to put the sanctions
6:37
in place that they wanted to. The Russia regulations do say the Secretary of State can
6:42
waive or pause any particular ban. And the reason they're doing this quite clearly is they're worried
6:48
that people will not be able to go abroad on holiday because there'll be a shortage of jet fuel. Surely the public, I mean, they may be slightly concerned about what's going on in Ukraine
6:55
and all of that but they really want to go on holiday Are you not in danger of putting yourself on the wrong side of this argument Well no I think absolutely not We are on the right side of this argument And here are the two things I would say For the first time we are now out of step with the EU on sanctions in Russia
7:09
That's why you've seen a huge amount of upset from our allies from Ukraine today
7:14
And the reason that we cannot put those sanctions in place, and bear in mind, I'm very proud of what we did
7:19
and actually what Keir did for a long time in continuing that unwavering support of Ukraine
7:24
Britain has been at the forefront of that fight. But what we cannot do now is pursue sanctions at the same rate because we have these huge problems in the UK's energy supply
7:33
And these are all being made worse by Ed Miliband. The fact that at the very same time he was lifting sanctions on Russian oil, which is going to fund Putin's war machine
7:41
and banning new licences in the North Sea shows what a mess we've got into when it comes to energy policy
7:48
To be clear just about two things in that, you can't take North Sea oil and turn it into jet fuel because we don't, you're quite right
7:54
We don't have the refineries to do it, so we have to get it from outside. Well, firstly, there is some of our North Sea oil does go to our refineries
8:01
but the other place it goes to is our European allies, where it gets refined. But I don't think we can make jet fuel, can we
8:06
Well, we have made jet fuel in the past. We've lost a lot of that capacity in the last year. But it goes to our Europe
8:11
This is an argument I've made for multiple years. It goes to our European allies. So in terms of European refinery, 20% of the oil that's refined there comes from the North Sea
8:21
So if you stop British production, that means our European allies, we get our refined goods from them, have less oil
8:27
Where do they go to next? They have to go to places like Putin or maybe Venezuela or other hostile states
8:33
I've been trying to concentrate on our conversation, but I can see Mr
8:37
Brian behind you vigorously shaking his head. So I want to bring you in now, Chris
8:41
Well, it'd be nice to introduce some facts into the debate. So let me just say so one thing that I think is counterintuitive to people
8:49
Most people think that we have not been having Russian oil products coming into the UK
8:55
Up until now, they have been perfectly legal. The previous government didn't do anything about this at all
9:00
It's been perfectly legal. And the regulations didn't come in in October
9:04
They came in today. The regulations banning the imports into the UK of uranium and of oil products that have been processed in other countries
9:16
but originally came from Russia, came into effect today. We decided that we wanted to phase that process in
9:23
So the regulations came into effect today. But on two specific categories, we decided that..
9:28
Sorry to jump in. When you say phase, that suggests it'll only be for a short period of time
9:33
But the regulations say this can go on forever. And so long as there is a shortage of jet fuel, I put it to you, that will continue
9:40
So that's the other point I wanted to make, which is that's not the point that we're making. We haven't we haven't we're not phasing in because of the of an access to jet fuel
9:48
We have no there is no honestly that is not part of the equation for us
9:52
The issue for us has been about an anxiety as other countries have done
9:56
The United States of America have just extended their waiver by another month. Australia and Canada have done something very similar to ourselves
10:03
So we are walking in step with our European ally with most of our allies
10:07
If we are just to stop you there, Chris, if we are in step with our allies
10:11
Why did a prominent Ukrainian MP, Alexei Gontorenko, say today that he was deeply disappointed and that it put a question mark over Britain's friendship with Ukraine
10:21
Because I think that, if I'm honest, the way we laid this out..
10:26
Was really bad Yes and I said that in the House of Commons I entirely blame myself I not blaming anybody else for this The truth of the matter is that we should have made it clear that two things were happening at the same time
10:36
First of all, the new regulations were coming into effect today, which, as I say, for the
10:40
first time ever, are tougher sanctions on Russian oil products that have been processed in third countries
10:46
We've never had that ban before. Some people have been calling for a long time. Just sorry, Andrew
10:50
just let me finish, because so many people have got the wrong end of the stick about this, including Kevin
10:54
Baynock and Claire clearly as well and lots of other people as well. Your government didn't ban any of this. We are banning it
11:01
If I can respond, I'll come back to this. We are banning it. And I've heard people say that we are suspending sanctions
11:09
We are not. We have introduced more sanctions. One of the other things that we just introduced..
11:13
So what's this about jet fuel from India? You are pausing any ban on jet fuel that has been refined outside Russia
11:23
of Russian oil. That's true, isn't it? We've said about diesel and about LNG
11:29
And jet fuel. Our argument, the reason that we're phasing is not because we think
11:35
that we haven't got access and there's a problem with supply. That is not
11:38
the part of the problem that we have at all. The issue is that the price
11:43
spike that we feared and instability in the markets might affect every part of our energy market
11:48
and that's why we wanted to face it. You said it was going to be indefinite
11:52
And I just want to be very clear, as I said in the House today, we're going to review constantly
11:57
And I want to be able to suspend these licenses as soon as I possibly can
12:01
OK, you were shaking your head at Claire. Claire was shaking her head at you
12:04
So I'm going to go back to Claire again. Look, the way that sanctions work is you ratchet them up over time with your allies
12:10
You work in lockstep with people to freeze out hostile states. This was something which was agreed in October 2025 that would be brought in
12:18
And now, unlike the EU, Chris can correct me if I'm wrong, the EU is maintaining these sanctions
12:22
on jet fuel and diesel that will come from Indian refineries using Putin's oil
12:27
We are not. That is the difference. That is why Ukraine is specifically criticising us today
12:32
And if I could just come back to the bigger point. The reason this is happening is that we have four UK refineries left
12:38
By the end of the parliament, we may have none. They are spending more on a carbon tax going to the government than they are spending on
12:44
their wage bill. Indian refineries are not facing that challenge. Neither are US refineries or the Middle East refineries
12:50
So we are uniquely punishing our own production and becoming more reliant on imports
12:55
This is a problem. Very quick final question, Chris. I noticed when Kimmy Baden-Ock asked the Prime Minister about the North Sea licences ban that is coming in legislation in the King's speech
13:06
He didn't reply directly to that. He talked about the North Sea oil and gas will be used for years to come, which is true, whatever happens
13:13
But he did not address the new licences issue. Is that silence significant
13:17
I'm afraid I was writing my words for the answer to the UQ, which was coming out 15 minutes later
13:22
so I wasn't concentrating very much, I'm afraid. But look, the bigger point here is
13:27
first of all, we need to make sure that Putin doesn't win. And we in the UK are working with our allies
13:33
In some cases, we've gone faster than the EU. For instance, in the ban on Russian..
13:37
We're out of time, nearly, but a slight tone of regret from the fact that Nick Butler, for instance
13:41
former advisor to Gordon Brown, said on this show that this is good news for Putin and bad news for Zelensky
13:47
Well, he's wrong. He's absolutely wrong, I'm afraid. And I think he's got the wrong end of the stick as well
13:51
I'm quite happy to sit down and explain it to him. I think the two of you should probably sit down
13:56
Anyway, both of you, thank you both very much. Chris Bryant, Claire Coutinho, thank you both very much indeed for that
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