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Labour grandee Alan Johnson has said Keir Starmer "knows it's over" and should step aside after Andy Burnham's thumping victory in the Makerfield by-election. It comes after Mr Burnham secured a 9,231 majority and a 54.8 per cent share of the vote in the Makerfield by-election, piling mounting pressure on a beleaguered PM whose future now hangs in the balance. Asked what advice he would give the PM, whose future is more perilous than ever as allies of Mr Burnham call for him to step aside, Mr Johnson told Marr: '"I would say it is over Keir. And listen, he is a bright guy, he knows it is over." But Keir Starmer isn't the only person who had a very bad night during the by-election, Reform underperformed massively based on pollster's expectations. Matt Frei thinks he's noticed something strange about Farage's campaign. He puts his theory the Reform councillor George Madgwick. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #mattfrei #keirstarmer #nigelfarage #andyburnham #makerfield #ukpolitics #reform #ukpolitics #uknews #lbc
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0:00
Labour always made that argument that they need to keep reform out
0:04
And, you know, I guess you could say that if anyone can do it, it would be Andy Burnham as Labour leader
0:10
I mean, let's wait and see. It's early days. If he does get the big job, he's still got more than two years to prove himself
0:16
And as we know from incumbents and previous prime ministers, that proves to be very tricky
0:21
And as I've said before, the least popular prime minister since the beginning of polling have been the last five
0:26
So it's a tough job. But anyway, and Nigel Farage did not have a good night, and he more or less acknowledged as much after the election in Makerfield
0:36
Listen. Well, the Makerfield by-election was a dramatic, emphatic win for Andy Burnham, with a vote share that nobody could quite see coming
0:44
In many ways, he's a popular local mayor, just as Boris Johnson was a very popular mayor in London just a few years ago
0:51
But what really happened here is it was vote Burnham, get Starmer out, which of course was our campaign message leading up to the locals on the 7th of May
1:01
So we were slightly hoist with our own petard. As for the reform vote share, well, I thought we'd get 18,000 votes
1:09
We got just shy of 16, so I'm disappointed by that, no question about it
1:14
But I would say this, there's a couple of thousand voters there who would normally have gone out and voted reform that voted restore
1:21
And I would say directly to them, what do you want? Nigel Farage, that's sounding quite gracious, but also, you know, a little bit downcast, as you would imagine, after that election result
1:30
Let's now speak to my next guest, Councillor George Madiwick. He's Reform UK Group Leader of Hampshire County Council and the party's Southeast campaign manager
1:39
George, good morning to you. Good morning, Matt. So the slogan, as Nigel Farage just referred to, there was vote Burnham to get Starmer out
1:47
but what we also saw was vote Labour to keep reform out of number 10
1:53
Isn't that right? I don't necessarily agree on this occasion, and I think I understand why people could spin it that way, absolutely
2:01
but I think on this occasion, I think it was clear that people were voting for the next Prime Minister
2:05
I think even on multiple media shows that we saw, multiple TV interviews, radio interviews leading up
2:10
the main question is, Andy Burnham, are you going to make a challenge on day one of your new tenure
2:15
as the candidate or the MP for Makerfield. And he kind of sidestep that question
2:20
Fiona Bruce did a really good interrogation of him. And I think this was what the election was about, is Keir Starmer
2:27
Is Keir Starmer going to be the prime minister? And people wanted him out, and that's what they said in Makerfield
2:32
At the same time, one of the reasons why Andy Burnham was so popular
2:38
and we saw that in the kind of tactical voting that was taking place, was not just his local appeal, the fact that he seems to like the voters
2:45
and, you know, he's very good at sort of, you know, talking to them and glad handing them. But also that he is seen as the man most likely to defeat reform at the next election
2:55
And people from the Labour Party even from the Tory party from the Green Party were happy and the Lib Dems were happy to vote for him in order to make that happen So that must be something that gives reform cause for concern at the moment
3:10
I mean, you've got to give Andy his credit where credit's due. He managed to absolutely destroy the left vote and completely capitalise on that Green Party liberal vote
3:19
And that's great. You know, well done to him. Great campaign for him. And that's a message that he's clearly going to go into his Labour MPs this week
3:25
and say, I'm the man for the job because I'm that person. As you just said, that's the kind of message he's going to be going to
3:31
But that's not overly a concern for us, you know, on the right of politics
3:34
But why is that not a concern for you? Because, I mean, you know, your party is based around the charisma of one guy, essentially
3:40
It's Nigel Farage. You know, it's really, I mean, let's face it, it's still a one-person show
3:45
and we'll get to that problem in a minute. And again, if Andy Burnham has that kind of charisma
3:49
I'm not assuming that he'll get the top job or that he'll be a decent prime minister. I'm just saying if he if you can translate some of that, you know, that likability, approachability to the national stage, then you have your work cut out to keep him from staying in number 10
4:04
Well, we're in the air of personality politics, aren't we, Matt? And as you say, in the world of social media now, the prime minister is becoming very unpopular very quickly
4:12
Look, and he's not been under the scrutiny as Manchester mayor like he will be in prime as a prime minister
4:18
You know that all too well as a season reporter. And he will absolutely be criticized
4:23
He'll be put under the microscope. And he's got to live up to that
4:27
Now, in relation, I know you said you've come to this about Reformed being a one-man band
4:31
Maybe if it was a couple of years ago, I'd agree with you. But we've got some serious, serious talent in our group now
4:36
And you'll be so surprised. Even amongst members, Zia Youssef, for example, is wildly popular with the public
4:43
after his multiple incredible media interviews that he does. and we've got some real good talent with lee anderson with richard tyson big personalities
4:50
robert jenryk suella but you've also got a real problem in picking the right candidates right i
4:54
mean so your guy in makerfield rob kenyon local guy you know good you know appeal on the doorstep
5:00
and all that you know had a fairly checkered past when it comes to his attitude towards women
5:05
which he then didn't do a very good job in denying or you know saying at least apologizing for some
5:11
of it and ultimately he wasn't a very strong candidate and even when you do have seemingly
5:17
quite strong candidates like matt goodwin in the gorton and denton by-election back in february
5:22
they also fail you have a real problem there don't you no i think you know i i personally and i'm
5:28
talking from my personal view here not on behalf of the party i believe that a local candidate is
5:33
always the best place i think that somebody should be connected to the area in some capacity to stand
5:38
in that area. That's a personal belief of mine. So I think that Rob was a great candidate choice
5:42
He's a local councillor. He's been voted in numerous times and he has got the support of
5:47
the public. The issue we had here quite clearly is Andy Burnham. I think if we stood against
5:51
any other Labour candidate, it probably would have been a reform win. But people were clear
5:55
they wanted Andy Burnham to be prime minister And I think Keir Starmer got a real real real big challenge on his hands now Okay you mentioned scrutiny into Andy Burnham and I get your point I mean a lot of people even people who quite like him in the Labour Party
6:09
are saying, who is the real Andy Burnham? Can we find out whether he's a Blairite or he's a lefty or a soft lefty
6:14
You know, so all these things are to be determined. But your party leader, Nigel Farage, has been rather, you know
6:22
away from scrutiny in the last month, ever since the reports of the five million quid present he got from the crypto billionaire living
6:28
in thailand he's decided not to put himself out to public scrutiny as much as he normally does
6:34
he barely appeared on the campaign trail because he was hiding from the press
6:38
which camp oh the recent campaign i mean nigel i was with nigel numerous times during the campaign
6:44
trail leading up to the may local elections and i even said to him one day nigel how do you do it
6:49
he's out at six but he wasn't out that much in this in the makerfield campaign he was barely
6:53
visible he'd gone into a witness protection program on that one and actually you could argue
6:57
because he's a very popular politician and a great campaigner he should have been there more often
7:01
but that's not accurate he has been out he has been proactive not as much as usual you in one
7:07
in one comment matt with all due respect you're saying that our party's a one-trick pony you know
7:11
nigel's at the top but equally we had every single one of our mps up there for multiple days doing
7:16
multiple interviews multiple campaign runs lots of social media posts so we can't have it and yet
7:21
didn't work that's it didn't work because Andy Burnham is such a personally strong figure and
7:27
Keir Starmer is wildly unpopular and the people want change at the top of prime ministerial I
7:31
don't think there's any reflection on our future success but but this is also a constituency that
7:35
voted overwhelmingly to leave 10 years ago it is also a constituency in an area which just
7:42
over a month ago voted overwhelmingly for reform in the local election so I put it to you that you
7:48
You know, on local elections and in opinion polls, you know, you do pretty well. But I wonder whether when it comes to Parliament, to winning those important by-elections, you've hit peak reform
7:58
And, you know, this is as good as it gets for you guys. Once again, Matt, as I say, I respect you. You're a seasoned professional
8:04
I'm a big fan of yours and I know your career is very vast. So I know how experienced you are and you'll know all too well how general public vote for certain issues in certain campaigns and people swing votes
8:14
We have lots of swing voters in this country. and that's what we've seen here. As you say, just yourself
8:18
in the local elections, we did incredible. We wiped up the area. However, in this election
8:23
people referred back to Andy Burnham because they wanted to get rid of Keir Starmer
8:27
but I'm more than confident, more than confident that in a general election
8:30
when it becomes just Labour and just reform, because let's be honest, the next general election is going to be nobody
8:36
but Labour versus reform. No one's in a shop around this country
8:40
other than us two. I think people start to polarise their vote and they'll have to get behind one of the two of us
8:44
And that's where I feel reform will have wild success and take over the government of this country
8:49
Although, you know, the Tories showed that they had a pulse in Scotland where, you know, they'd basically given up on politics
8:54
And you lot were saying that they no longer a national party because they can win in Scotland They just won that by So you know it you know I not saying they necessarily going to be forming the next government but they are still a force to be reckoned with Absolutely I mean we did not put any money into the election up in that ward
9:10
We didn't put many resources into that ward. You also didn't have Restore standing, because obviously Rupert clearly did a deal with Kemi
9:16
to stop them standing in that area, which is disappointing in itself. But equally, you know, you talk about Tory success in one seat
9:22
Absolutely. But everywhere else, they can't even return their deposit. They're getting 2%, 1%
9:27
They're not the serious competition anymore. But isn't the problem that, you know, you are Nigel Farage is very marmite
9:33
You know, some people adore him and a lot of people really don't like him at all
9:37
And so the coalition to try and keep him out of number 10 is growing in strength and not the opposite
9:44
despite the fact that he's tried to move to the centre. But then he's got Rupert Lowe breathing down his neck
9:48
So he's shifted a little bit more to the right, as we saw just in the last few weeks
9:52
And I just also wonder whether some of your MPs, the ones that have managed to get through
9:56
are just, you know, not reading the room. So Sarah Pochin came up with this extraordinary quote here
10:01
England won the football last night, and thank goodness they did, because on the occasions that England lose their football matches
10:08
the incidences of domestic violence go through the roof. So boys, keep winning
10:12
I mean, this might go down well in the occasional pub, but frankly, it's just not good enough
10:18
It's not decent enough for a member of parliament to say that kind of stuff, especially a woman
10:23
I agree. It's wildly inappropriate. and I messaged Sarah herself and said that. I don't think the way that she said that point was good at all
10:29
I think what she was meaning behind it is accurate. We know, and this is on a recent council course I was in
10:34
we know for a fact that during football games, if someone's team does not do well
10:39
there is a rise in domestic abuse. But putting that on the players, very, very poor choice of wording
10:44
not something I would have done personally. However, the point remains that that is a true statement
10:49
and it's something that we've got to look at because it's dangerous for our community
10:53
And just finally and briefly, I mean, the problem the Labour Party has is that it's torn between, you know
10:58
its centre, right, soft left, green corner, what you like, and then you've got the Greens breathing down their neck, you know, on their left flank
11:05
The problem you have is that you're not really sure where to move. You want to move a little bit to the centre
11:10
You've got Rupert Lowe now telling you that you've sold out. So how do you deal with that problem
11:15
We deal with the problem via results, and I think this is where the local grassroots ground campaign really comes in
11:20
I was speaking to me and Suella Braven went out door knocking yesterday, and we even had a voter on the left say to us that locally we vote reform because our local
11:29
councillors done a really good job and this is where local councillors local community champions
11:33
local mps can do really good groundwork because people kind of at that rate look at the results of
11:39
what you're doing so what we need to do is reform and what we are doing is providing results over
11:43
the next few years at a county level council level and an mp level and a mayoral level so
11:48
that we can prove how good and effective we can be. And then essentially we should be able to capitalise that vote
11:54
and bring them behind reform for that. And you sound as if you're in campaign mode there
11:57
We shall see you. We shall judge you by your results and we'll talk to you again after that
12:02
George Madwick, thank you very much for your time this morning
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