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Mass Appeal Creative Director Sacha Jenkins Talks About ‘Bitchin': The Sound and Fury of Rick James’
Sep 23, 2021
Sacha Jenkins’s documentary about the funk rocker includes the wild stories of his life, but also argues for James’s broader cultural impact.
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Mass Appeal Creative Director Sacha Jenkins Talks About ‘Bitchin': The Sound and Fury of Rick James’
Sway’s Universe
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0:03
oh man uh right now sways universe we
0:05
got a good friend rich nice is with me
0:07
uh rich nice how it goes oh man great to
0:10
be here fantastic to be here all right
0:12
and and i'm honored to have with me um
0:15
the creator creative director at mass
0:18
appeal great friend of mines um loved
0:20
all the work he's done over the years
0:23
um beat down newspaper was one of the
0:25
things he founded back in the early 90s
0:28
maybe nine i don't know 91 92
0:30
right
0:32
right went on to do eagle tripping
0:33
magazine
0:35
um he established a lot done a lot of
0:37
documentaries
0:38
uh to me he's one of the most important
0:40
person in terms of documenting our
0:42
history especially in music and hip-hop
0:44
culture
0:45
um in our in our society we got the one
0:48
and only sasha jenkins with the sasha
0:50
welcome welcome sasha how you doing
0:52
brother i'm well thanks for having me
0:53
always appreciate the platform
0:55
absolutely uh today we come together to
0:58
talk about rick james bitching the sound
1:00
and fury of rick james and this is
1:03
something that's available on showtime
1:05
it's an incredible body of work that you
1:07
had a chance to direct congratulations
1:10
on that thank you thank you um
1:13
before we get it to wreck man i want to
1:14
say congratulations on mass appeal too
1:17
hey duke king disease too man that was
1:19
that was pretty damn dope man how
1:21
excited are y'all around the office
1:24
i mean i'm not really involved with the
1:26
music stuff but um the office is on fire
1:29
and you know nas is a rare artist that
1:31
can still remain contemporary
1:33
and have a legacy you know you got the
1:35
rolling stones you got groups in other
1:37
genres of music
1:39
who can keep it going and keep it
1:40
popping but nah is first of all
1:42
much like you gentlemen keeping it tight
1:44
looking like your workout regimen is
1:46
good i don't know if there's good gene
1:47
to nasa's workout regimen but he the guy
1:50
also doesn't age much if at all so guy
1:54
stays contemporary um works with the
1:56
right people he's got relevant things to
1:59
say
2:00
and he's still here and it's it's a
2:02
great boost to mass appeal for sure
2:03
absolutely uh what about you i mean you
2:06
you've been able to establish a long and
2:09
prosperous and fruitful career uh what
2:11
is it about
2:13
your approach you think has kept you
2:14
here this long
2:16
curiosity and the desire to tell our
2:18
stories the right way
2:20
i don't think i'm special i just think
2:22
that i have an opportunity and if there
2:23
are more people who look like us who
2:24
have opportunity to tell these stories
2:26
more work will come out that is
2:28
representative of who we are and how we
2:30
feel so
2:31
i feel very lucky to have the platforms
2:33
that i've had over the last few years to
2:36
to tell our stories and i'm very
2:37
passionate about it
2:39
here's a question i watched the
2:41
documentary bitching the sound and fury
2:43
of rick james and what an amazing piece
2:45
of work i learned about rick jane some
2:47
things i didn't know and then it was
2:49
refreshing to kind of go back and
2:51
remember the things that i did know
2:54
um and i always saw rick as
2:57
just an extremely talented and fiery and
3:01
explosive stage performer and musician
3:04
but i didn't know the layers to who he
3:06
is you know and i'm curious to
3:09
when you did this documentary was there
3:11
anything that you found out about him
3:13
that you didn't know that surprised you
3:15
for example
3:16
rick was an activist
3:18
in many ways and i really didn't know
3:21
that side of him i only knew his music
3:23
you know and uh his his plight you know
3:25
stepping up to mtv
3:27
uh because they weren't playing black
3:30
music at the time even though it didn't
3:31
benefit him it benefited people like
3:33
michael jackson uh it was kind of people
3:36
like him that triggered that you know
3:39
what is it that you found out about him
3:40
that
3:41
might have surprised you
3:43
well people be surprised to know that he
3:45
didn't really get on as a musician and
3:47
really make it until he was in his 30s i
3:49
mean if you're a rapper now
3:51
maybe you start out at 17 if you're not
3:53
on by like 24 it's like you gotta figure
3:56
out what your next move is and the fact
3:57
that he
3:58
has stuck around for so long
4:01
and had the success that he had and also
4:02
when you look at all the groups leading
4:04
up to his final breakthrough hit you and
4:06
i
4:07
you can hear all the the evolution and
4:10
the learning
4:12
is in that song all the groups that he
4:14
played in before being a songwriter in
4:16
motown uh being in these folk rock bands
4:20
being in funky bands all these things
4:22
added up to
4:24
what he created which was extremely
4:25
unique so
4:27
perseverance you know he just
4:30
stuck with it and that's a trait that a
4:32
lot of people don't really possess
4:34
especially now we have such short
4:36
attention spans
4:37
you could be hot for 10 minutes on the
4:39
internet and two weeks later no one
4:40
remembers the record he refused to be a
4:43
bargain bin artist
4:45
and he had a couple of records in the
4:46
bargain bin that sound pretty dope if
4:48
you ask me but so many people wind up in
4:51
that void he refused to go down that
4:53
void and so here he is
4:56
you know you talk about some of the folk
4:58
bands he he played in he's he had a
5:00
stint in canada
5:01
yeah right and played with the likes of
5:03
bob dylan and others correct not bob
5:06
dylan neil young
5:08
okay neil young he played with the
5:10
yeah the band that backed bob dylan
5:13
who would go on to be called the band
5:15
he played with some of those guys he
5:17
played with some of those guys how did
5:19
he get to canada
5:21
he was going awol from the military
5:23
because he signed up from the navy he
5:25
signed up and he had to go to like a
5:27
meeting once a month and he just stopped
5:29
going and then he realized they were
5:30
looking for him so he said yo
5:32
i'm gonna escape to canada like a lot of
5:34
people did
5:35
the minute he gets off the bus these
5:37
white guys surround him calling the
5:39
n-word then all of a sudden these other
5:41
white guys come to his defense and it
5:43
winds up being the band the guys who
5:46
play with bob dylan and then all of a
5:47
sudden he's
5:48
chilling with joni mitchell
5:51
in a band with neil young and doing all
5:53
these things and then eventually
5:54
he has a manager
5:56
as a falling out the manager manager
5:58
snitches on him he gets violated goes to
6:00
the military brig
6:02
gets out goes back to canada where's
6:04
everybody at everybody went to
6:06
california and got recorded deals so
6:08
neil young wound up in buffalo
6:10
springfield all these things all these
6:12
people he knew were on
6:13
where he went out there trying to get on
6:16
and it didn't really work so what did he
6:18
do he went to colombia picked up some
6:20
cocaine he went to india and picked up
6:22
heroin he did all these things
6:25
while simultaneously spending his money
6:28
and his mind and his creativity on
6:31
creating new sounds and new bands
6:33
and it wasn't until again he was in his
6:36
30s
6:37
that
6:38
the iteration of the fully realized
6:40
vision of what he had in his head and
6:43
his in his heart finally came to be
6:46
after all those trials and tribulations
6:47
after all those trials and tribulations
6:49
man nowadays when you think of buffalo
6:52
you think of griselda
6:55
well that's where i had conway in the
6:56
film yeah yeah and and conway riding
7:00
around the you know riding around the
7:02
city and talking about the
7:04
legend of rick james what buffalo
7:08
rick james is to buffalo with princess
7:10
to minneapolis right
7:12
totally but
7:13
i think people know a little bit more
7:16
about minneapolis and absolutely nothing
7:18
about buffalo so
7:20
you know in order to understand rick
7:22
james or conway you got to unpack the
7:24
city that they're from and pretty much
7:26
you know people confirm that buffalo was
7:28
racist then and conway in the way that
7:31
he describes it
7:32
in turn he ends his statement by saying
7:35
i'm from this part of town and i pretty
7:36
much stay where i belong he said i stay
7:38
where i belong what the [ __ ] does that
7:41
mean it means
7:42
that
7:43
certain he's obviously conway he's a
7:46
trap world traveler and does his thing
7:47
but in his hometown he feels most
7:50
comfortable where he quote-unquote
7:52
belongs what the [ __ ] is that well it
7:54
just gives you a window into what
7:56
buffalo might be like and so
7:58
the things that rick james talked about
8:01
on the street songs album
8:03
is what comedy was saying we can relate
8:05
to what he's saying it's how we grew up
8:06
so basically we're saying [ __ ] has not
8:09
changed in buffalo for black folks
8:11
when i was a young boy
8:13
growing up in the ghetto
8:16
hanging on the corner
8:18
um what was tough i mean syracuse and i
8:21
remember if sometimes you get on the
8:22
wrong bus or your bus has to connect in
8:24
buffalo you'd always get that
8:26
conversation like hey man watch yourself
8:28
cause buffalo ain't an easy town don't
8:30
don't let the mountains fool you you can
8:31
get hurt update
8:33
right right so you know he i mean there
8:36
are projects in buffalo we shot where he
8:39
was his projects are abandoned but like
8:41
you know any opportunity i get to fly a
8:44
drone over the projects whether it's in
8:46
buffalo or in queens i'm doing it um
8:49
so
8:50
he was he was a world traveler and he
8:52
was culturally very literate in the way
8:54
that i referenced pharrell pharrell was
8:57
a guy who liked skateboarding and rock
8:58
music and all these things at a time
9:00
when it was like if you're a black dude
9:02
it's weird if you like all that stuff
9:05
rick james was that guy who put all that
9:07
culture together early was able to be
9:09
himself he didn't have to change his
9:11
identity he didn't have to code switch
9:13
to fit in because they wanted the
9:15
essence they were in canada they were
9:18
happy to have a black musician
9:20
who was authentic on their team
9:22
because they were all inspired and
9:24
influenced by black musicians
9:26
so here he is like oh [ __ ] i'm around
9:28
white people who are cool and i don't
9:30
have to change who i am and they like me
9:32
and they respect me as an artist
9:34
that must have been an incredible
9:36
feeling considering
9:37
the times he was living in now i'm not
9:39
saying that canada doesn't have racism
9:41
and there aren't racist people but
9:44
apparently he was a bit different from
9:46
america and so he felt a bit of freedom
9:49
and i feel like most
9:50
black artists
9:52
the closest they get to freedom in this
9:53
country is through expression
9:56
now when
9:57
rick james is on stage and he's being
9:59
all that he can be that's the closest he
10:01
ever comes to the feeling of freedom
10:04
and um
10:06
that's what rick james has in common
10:07
with louis armstrong that he has in
10:09
common with james brown that he has in
10:12
common with nas and i've come to believe
10:14
because i'm actually doing a louis
10:16
armstrong film right now there are no
10:18
genres
10:21
there's just black
10:24
suffering
10:25
and oppression in our reaction to that
10:28
through art our way of coping with that
10:30
through art louis armstrong caught a gun
10:32
charge at 14.
10:34
okay
10:35
he goes to reform school he learns about
10:37
music and reform school
10:40
you know james brown caught charges he
10:42
went to reform school learned me you
10:44
know that's where he really honed his
10:45
musicianship
10:47
so it's like
10:48
outside of the so-called genre
10:51
it's the same story louis armstrong's
10:53
from the ghetto
10:55
louis armstrong got out of the ghetto by
10:57
way of his music
10:58
people were captivated by his expression
11:01
and the authenticity of what it was he
11:03
was transmitting and he had this joy and
11:06
his energy it's like yeah he's smiling
11:08
all the time but it's because he's
11:09
trying to get away from the oppression
11:12
he's trying to find a way out
11:14
and that's all we continue to do with
11:16
all of this music and rick james
11:18
while he didn't like hip-hop
11:20
he told you like yo
11:23
but when that hammer money came in you
11:25
know it was good and i saw a tweet from
11:27
chuck d
11:28
who said that he really loved the film
11:30
and that
11:31
rick james and the stone city band gave
11:33
them
11:34
gay pe advice real early and was super
11:37
supportive of them so
11:39
i think rick was sophisticated enough to
11:41
see himself in hip-hop he might have not
11:44
have always liked all of it and i'm
11:46
there too i don't like all of it either
11:48
but i think he was sophisticated enough
11:49
to see himself
11:51
and see other generations of people like
11:53
him in it and he had no choice but to
11:55
embrace it at some point so we got sasha
11:57
jenkins talking with us um rich knights
12:00
you want to jump in there yeah you know
12:02
i want to congratulate you on on this
12:04
film um my one my one and only
12:07
disappointment was that slick rick james
12:09
wasn't alive to sit with you and really
12:12
you know
12:13
complete the film um
12:16
it felt though as moments
12:18
that he was alive
12:20
were you aware of that as you were
12:22
making this film because obviously he's
12:23
passed away but in that process it felt
12:26
like he was talking directly to me in
12:28
parts of this film well he was i mean we
12:30
used his voice um we were able to
12:33
interestingly enough behind the music a
12:35
lot of it was outtakes from behind the
12:37
music that we were able to repurpose but
12:40
his daughter tai
12:43
was very you know
12:44
there's a lot of not so pretty things in
12:46
the film and i told her early on like yo
12:48
there has to be balance otherwise it's
12:50
just i'm gonna look crazy doing a
12:52
full-time celebration of rick james
12:53
without getting into
12:56
cancer drug use the controversy the jail
12:58
stint all of these different things
13:00
right
13:01
and so when she saw it she was just like
13:03
i feel like my father would have really
13:06
approved of this but feel like you were
13:08
fair
13:09
and my father knew he had issues and he
13:11
talks about it in the film you know he
13:13
talks about hitting this woman like yeah
13:15
i put hands on the woman but after
13:17
the woman during a crack binge kicked
13:20
his pregnant wife whatever you know what
13:22
i mean like
13:23
he didn't the other argument is he did
13:25
his time you know he committed the
13:27
crimes he did the time
13:29
so
13:30
i tried to be balanced but in terms of
13:32
feeling him in the film as weird as it
13:34
might sound
13:36
i knew tina marie and i was in the
13:37
process
13:38
of doing a project with tina marie
13:40
before she died and i had a decent
13:42
relationship with her i didn't know her
13:43
super well
13:44
but she was really cool
13:46
it sounds crazy but i believe
13:48
because i was up to do this film like
13:50
four years ago and then it went away
13:52
mysteriously like
13:54
people stopped calling me whatever and
13:56
it came back around
13:57
like i believe
14:00
call ms cleo or whoever you want to call
14:02
i believe in my heart
14:04
that tina marie put in the word to rick
14:06
james for me to do this
14:08
there's no other explanation for it
14:10
and i think that warmth of his voice
14:14
is in there and then his homeboys you
14:16
know like they talk [ __ ] about him but
14:18
they love him at the same time they're
14:20
mad that he died he says you know you
14:22
couldn't let that white [ __ ] go you
14:23
couldn't let that cocaine go they're mad
14:26
at him but they love him at the same
14:27
time they claim they didn't get paid but
14:30
they still love them and appreciate the
14:32
opportunity and i think that's
14:34
we're all nuanced when we all go there
14:36
are things that people are going to love
14:37
about us and say things that they didn't
14:40
love about us but i think the love and
14:42
respect is there and the proof is in
14:44
this artistry it's still being sampled
14:46
people know the music if you don't know
14:48
him
14:49
and um you know people know i'm rick
14:51
james [ __ ] most recently but now
14:54
they'll have a picture a snapshot of
14:56
where all that came from
14:58
and that's the irony because there's so
15:00
many layers to him and some of the
15:02
things that make him most popular um uh
15:05
were accompanied by other artists you
15:07
know when you look at
15:09
m.c hammond sampling super freak and um
15:13
winning a grammy for can't touch this
15:16
meanwhile
15:17
you know rick james hadn't won a grammy
15:18
yet he had only been nominated for two i
15:21
believe up until that point bought best
15:22
male vocal for street songs and then
15:24
also super free uh why do you think that
15:27
is that was ten years later when hammer
15:29
sampled that's all
15:31
why why do i think why do you think he
15:32
never had a grammy prior to that
15:35
i mean
15:36
you know i can do a whole dissertation
15:38
on the grammys but for the reasons why
15:41
it took a long time for hip-hop to get
15:43
recognized
15:45
i think rick james although he wasn't
15:47
hip-hop he was hip-hop he was a threat
15:50
he talked [ __ ]
15:51
he wasn't gonna complain he wasn't just
15:53
gonna comply
15:55
and that is dangerous i mean
15:58
a black man
16:00
who has a platform who is not afraid to
16:04
say
16:05
i don't care this is what i have to say
16:07
and it's important to people like me and
16:09
people look like me is a threat
16:12
it's a threat he's not just casting
16:14
checks
16:16
he's a threat and at the same time
16:18
you know he's fighting mtv did i believe
16:21
in my heart that he felt that he was
16:22
doing the right thing yes did i believe
16:24
in my heart that he felt it was racist
16:25
and that other artists could benefit
16:27
from it yes well simultaneously he was
16:29
thinking about himself
16:31
he wanted to shine he wanted to have the
16:33
success so it's
16:35
it's a complicated balance but a real
16:38
honest look at someone who is like all
16:40
of us very nuanced and not always on
16:42
screen
16:44
when when i think of rick and i let you
16:46
jump in rich you might even want to
16:47
chime into this and this is just my my
16:50
personal view always looked at lenny
16:52
kravitz right
16:54
and when i would look at lenny kravitz i
16:56
would go man i see prince in him
16:58
right and when i would look at prince i
17:00
would say man i see rick james and him
17:03
right
17:04
uh and then we take it back to jimi
17:06
hendrix you know um
17:08
what
17:09
you know i'm curious too because you
17:12
know rick rick came in and he was
17:13
unapologetic he had his his own thing
17:16
kind of like prince did you know and
17:20
he wasn't always
17:22
welcomed he wasn't always open-arm
17:24
welcome you know people like george
17:26
clinton or folks who felt you know that
17:27
felt like he was in the same realm saw
17:30
him as competition like who is this dude
17:32
and what is he doing
17:33
uh what was those relationships like
17:35
what did you find out about that how was
17:38
it just competitive with george clinton
17:40
or or or or prince or what were those
17:43
relationships like is that just what we
17:45
see we send this tendency in the music
17:47
business well you know i think that
17:51
with prince it was a bit of competition
17:53
i mean
17:54
rick sincerely liked prince and thought
17:56
he was talented and actually saw
17:58
a kinship he's like all right here's his
18:00
brother who can you know
18:01
i don't know if you saw that award show
18:03
where prince comes out and plays guitar
18:04
and smokes everybody and everyone
18:06
doesn't know what to do like
18:08
you know prince likes lots of things
18:10
including rock and roll so like you know
18:12
he sees someone he sees himself in this
18:15
kid right he's older than him but at the
18:17
same time when
18:19
you're just getting on at 30 something
18:21
there's some kid that's 10 years younger
18:23
than you or whatever coming up doing his
18:24
thing and then like taking some of your
18:26
routines you're gonna get mad
18:28
this is very natural it's not
18:30
it's not strange but rick himself in the
18:33
end says look at the end of the day i
18:35
respect the guy he's great
18:37
i didn't really have beef and i think
18:39
rick was the one at least um you know
18:42
said in the film that uh bootsy bootsy
18:44
said that uh rick was the one saying
18:47
[ __ ] like i'm selling more records than
18:48
y'all whatever you know it's like
18:51
i think people forget that or we take
18:53
for granted that black people the humor
18:56
and irony and sarcasm and all these
18:58
things are just built into our art right
19:00
so it's always jokes because again it's
19:03
always a way to get away from
19:05
feeling down or oppression it's like you
19:08
gotta laugh through the tears and [ __ ]
19:09
right so
19:11
rick james is snapping the whole time
19:13
but
19:14
he has respect for everybody and i think
19:16
the people who knew because george
19:17
clinton and those guys were on some
19:19
psychedelic psychedelic hippie [ __ ] so
19:21
was rick james i mean rick james almost
19:23
went to the manson murders
19:25
yeah yeah you know what i mean like
19:28
he's like the forest gump of like
19:30
black artists
19:32
you know in the 60s 70s and 80s he was
19:35
there so
19:36
i think they all respected him and he
19:38
respected them
19:39
they knew his pedigree he knew their
19:41
pedigree they ran in similar circles but
19:44
you know at the end of the day bros are
19:45
trying to get checks too you know
19:47
yeah absolutely uh one of the things i
19:50
always as a kid was baffled about was
19:52
the documentary kind of touched on and i
19:55
really appreciated that i mean i was
19:57
able to figure it out as an adult but he
19:58
was very androgynous
20:00
in this presentation you know right and
20:03
you know with the tights
20:05
you know in the in the high boots
20:08
in the braids in his hair and people
20:10
didn't understand where the braids came
20:12
from they didn't know if he was trying
20:13
to emulate a woman
20:14
or or you know they just didn't have any
20:17
idea you were able to break that down um
20:19
in this documentary really well and it
20:22
spoke to his um consciousness his
20:24
identity you know and what was important
20:27
to him why he wore his hair like that
20:29
can you speak to that
20:31
yeah he uh met a woman from the messiah
20:34
tribe in africa on a flight
20:37
and admired her hair and started asking
20:39
her questions and she had a book or had
20:41
some photography and showed him more and
20:43
he said he asked her can you do my hair
20:44
like that and she said yeah
20:47
and so like you said this consciousness
20:49
that he's always had
20:51
again he never had to compromise his
20:53
identity he never had to compromise his
20:55
blackness
20:57
and
20:58
he referenced so much great black art in
21:00
his own art
21:02
down to
21:03
hair
21:05
from africa so
21:07
he was a very forward-thinking guy but
21:09
also a very tormented and tortured and
21:12
conflicted guy and i wanted people to
21:14
understand you know early on in the film
21:16
you learned he was sexually abused he
21:18
learned he was physically abused and
21:19
if you put
21:21
sexual abuse next to physical abuse and
21:23
you hop in a time machine and you look
21:25
at the [ __ ] that he got into
21:26
maybe
21:28
what happened to him as a kid maybe had
21:30
an effect on who he became as a man
21:33
but
21:34
you try to look at the complete picture
21:36
of in my opinion
21:38
it's all stemming from journalism like i
21:40
still believe in journalism and a lot of
21:42
people don't believe in journalism
21:43
anymore but
21:45
i think having balance is important and
21:47
so
21:48
you got to look at the good and the bad
21:50
and there's a lot of bad along with a
21:52
lot of good
21:54
i mean he he was one of the first people
21:56
i i i really remember seeing interview
21:59
clips of admitting that hey man
22:02
i like drugs
22:03
[Laughter]
22:06
okay wow that's something people didn't
22:08
vocalize right right
22:11
that does it do we know when he first
22:13
experimented
22:14
i think he experimented at a very young
22:16
age but you look at the song he wrote
22:19
mary jane right weed was real taboo now
22:21
wheat is essentially legal
22:23
and people understand the medicinal uses
22:26
for it and how it can actually be
22:27
helpful
22:28
he was advocating for it and like
22:31
dodging getting in a lot of trouble for
22:33
doing that you know smoking weed on
22:34
stage and like running off stage and
22:36
leaving town i mean that happened a few
22:38
times and didn't make the film but
22:41
you know now wheat is commonplace but
22:43
you know before cyprus hill in much
22:44
respect to cyprus
22:47
who are big advocates and continue to be
22:48
advocates rick james was doing that you
22:50
know uh
22:51
ice cube talks about how mr policeman
22:55
was a precursor to [ __ ] the police
22:57
how that was an influence on him who
22:59
knew that yeah you know so
23:02
i think it's
23:03
again it's the same story whether it's
23:05
louis armstrong or rick james or rizza
23:08
you know rick james's mom ran numbers so
23:10
to rizz's mom you know it's the same
23:12
story over and over again
23:14
uh
23:15
unfolding in different genres of music
23:17
but it's all reflective of
23:19
how we are who we are in america and how
23:21
america treats us
23:24
rich did you ever get to meet rick
23:26
yeah actually i did meet rick i met rick
23:28
twice i met rick in new york and i met
23:31
him in california and oddly enough the
23:33
california rick james was very different
23:36
than the new york rick james in my
23:37
experience the new york rick james was
23:39
the music conversation was very
23:41
musically driven talking about music the
23:44
california rick james who are actually
23:46
don't ask me how i was hanging out with
23:48
uh charles barkley but i'm hanging out
23:50
with charles barkley this is like bt
23:53
days bt from managing free and uh
23:56
rick james whole conversation was just
24:00
women and having fun he did not want to
24:02
talk about music it was just all
24:04
women and fun he actually posted up next
24:07
to the women's bathroom and that's where
24:08
he was taking meetings like in front of
24:11
the woman's bathroom and it's like come
24:13
on chuck come on nice come on chuck come
24:16
on nice and i'm looking to both of them
24:17
like
24:18
y'all got to be crazy that's the woman's
24:20
bathroom like
24:21
literally posted in front of it leaning
24:24
on the wall
24:25
like having interviews i was like
24:28
this is crazy i managed to the host of
24:31
106 in park i can't do this like you
24:33
look crazy sorry bananas i mean
24:36
obviously
24:37
it's difficult to capture the whole life
24:39
of a person like rick james in a
24:41
two-hour film um was there anything that
24:44
you didn't put in the film that you wish
24:46
you did and it was anything you feel
24:48
like you could have kind of left out at
24:50
the end and did something else
24:53
no i think i think considering all the
24:56
archival and people we interviewed um
24:59
i felt like we achieved a good balance i
25:01
mean
25:02
his brother
25:04
is claiming to be working on like a
25:06
10-part mini-series or something so
25:09
obviously his brother knew him well and
25:11
knows things that i certainly will never
25:13
know so maybe there will be something
25:15
else that comes out
25:17
um i know his daughter is also working
25:19
on something the estate is officially
25:21
working on something so there's probably
25:22
a scripted film
25:24
so you know just like with the wooten
25:26
series i did it was like the precursor
25:27
to the hulu series which is a scripted
25:29
thing
25:32
you know rizzo said that my my
25:34
wu-tang series was
25:37
the bible
25:39
and
25:40
his series is the ten commandments as in
25:43
the film
25:44
as in you know liberties are taken and
25:46
you get you can you have more creative
25:48
license
25:49
and i think um
25:51
now that there's more people a new
25:52
generation of people who might get
25:54
turned on to rick james through this
25:55
film
25:57
they're already in the process of doing
25:58
something
25:59
on the narrative side so
26:01
there will be other things that didn't
26:03
make the cut in my film that will
26:04
certainly come out in
26:06
in the narrative film
26:08
uh you you you talked about uh in the
26:11
film his stint in folsom and how
26:14
you know we spoke earlier on the
26:17
incident that led him there you know um
26:20
assaulting a woman
26:23
what did folsom and i and i i hear you
26:25
talk about louie armstrong and i you
26:27
know and you know we could liken that to
26:30
tupac we could liken it to a whole lot
26:32
of different folks
26:34
what was it about folsom that
26:37
changed him what did folsom being behind
26:39
bars do for him
26:41
well i think that was a you know paul
26:43
olson's a real prison but simultaneously
26:45
he had a lot of love there and i think
26:47
that
26:48
he had lots of conversations with people
26:50
who said man how did you wind up here
26:52
rick you're so great you're such an
26:53
influence and inspiration and
26:56
a broad range of inmates came up to him
26:58
you know even white you know you know
27:00
prison is broken down by race
27:02
everybody came to him saying how much
27:04
they respected him and i think that
27:07
a
27:08
he was away from drugs because as his
27:10
wife says he never went more than three
27:12
months without doing drugs yeah he was
27:14
clear-minded
27:16
and it gave him the opportunity to
27:18
supposedly write 400 songs i don't know
27:20
where all that output is
27:22
or how many of them were actually
27:23
recorded but
27:25
it seems like
27:26
uh he got some peace of mind there and
27:28
some focus
27:29
that was really hard for him to achieve
27:31
in the real world so
27:33
while folks in prison
27:34
is
27:36
um a very tough hard prison
27:38
for rick it gave him focus that he was
27:41
severely lacking in his personal life
27:45
he he eventually met his children that
27:47
he hadn't met like was it tai who didn't
27:50
meet him till she was 13. neither of
27:52
them ty's the older sister so
27:55
she's older than her brother by two or
27:56
three years so neither of them
27:58
you know
27:59
rick james's son is in school in calais
28:02
he's living in the hood telling kids
28:04
rick james is my dad some kid overhears
28:06
him
28:07
and it turns out the kid's father works
28:09
security for rick james so the kid tells
28:11
his father father tells rick james and
28:13
says it might actually be my kid he gets
28:16
it hires a private investigator and
28:18
finds them and then flies them out the
28:20
buffalo for the first time and the funny
28:21
thing is
28:22
when they walked off the plane there
28:24
were two other black a
28:26
girl and boy who walked out and he ran
28:28
up to them and hugged them and it wasn't
28:29
his kids so
28:31
that's great
28:32
i mean that's not great but wow that's
28:34
that that's kind of crazy i you know
28:36
it's um i have a daughter i couldn't
28:38
even imagine you know but ty in this
28:42
in this documentary in the beginning
28:43
definitely drives it home
28:45
you know and she has a
28:47
immense love for her dad
28:50
this does she how does she feel like her
28:52
relationship with him i i mean did his
28:54
absence how does she feel like it
28:56
affected her life and it didn't seem
28:58
like she hesitated from really embracing
29:00
them
29:02
you know she talks in the film about how
29:04
he threw something at her that she had
29:05
to get stitches and she didn't talk to
29:06
him for six months but i think she
29:08
writes it off as
29:09
when he's on drugs he's someone else
29:11
that's not my dad that's a demon he's
29:13
possessed by something else
29:15
and what he does and says
29:18
is not
29:19
true to who he really is and so i think
29:22
she reconciles it in that way you know
29:24
she
29:25
understands that he had a disease
29:27
um
29:28
you know his wife his ex-wife tanya says
29:31
that
29:32
he did so much drugs that he needed
29:34
cocaine
29:36
to like have some sense of pleasure
29:38
because
29:39
you've done so many drugs that you know
29:41
the stuff that you need the chemicals in
29:43
your brain are gone
29:44
from abusing so many drugs so
29:47
you know she looks at him as someone who
29:49
had a disease and succumbed to the
29:51
disease unfortunately i mean he had a
29:53
whole bunch of drugs in his system when
29:55
they did the autopsy
29:56
and um
29:58
you know she's very focused on his
29:59
legacy and pushing that forward and
30:02
you know
30:03
her dad did well so she's doing okay and
30:07
there's a lot of work to be done i mean
30:08
you know there's licenses and requests
30:11
and it's a full seemingly a full-time
30:13
job so she does the best she can to sort
30:16
of maintain his legacy and
30:18
you know again when i did when we
30:20
embarked on the film i said you've got
30:22
to let me
30:23
tell
30:24
the whole story otherwise
30:28
it's going to hurt what you're doing
30:29
anyway it's going to hurt the
30:30
credibility of your brand but also
30:33
it's just not an honest portrait of who
30:35
he was and in a time like this with me
30:36
too and r kelly and all these other
30:38
things
30:39
you know r kelly is a contemporary
30:41
person with issues
30:43
rick james
30:44
is from a different time and he you know
30:46
he certainly wasn't the only one i'm not
30:48
justifying what he did but like if you
30:50
went back in the time machine i mean
30:52
elvis's wife was underage uh
30:56
jerry lee lewis married his cousin
30:58
you know what i'm saying there's a lot
30:59
of wild
31:00
stuff
31:02
so you gotta
31:03
look at him as a man of his time who was
31:06
flawed who did his time
31:09
people are still gonna feel the way they
31:10
feel but you can't deny his genius you
31:12
can't deny his influence
31:14
and that's the story he's trying to tell
31:17
jenkins uh the director of bitching the
31:19
sound and fury of rick james
31:22
i'm rick james [ __ ]
31:26
he's too short too you're rick james and
31:28
too short yeah [ __ ] james they're too
31:30
short man um
31:32
the the they should pill
31:34
i i find it
31:37
fascinating how we uplift each other
31:40
you know what i mean we find each other
31:42
and we find ways to support each other
31:44
and some of the strangest
31:46
circumstances and and dave chappelle and
31:49
daniel rollins and with the uh on rich
31:52
rick james [ __ ] you know saying and
31:55
charlie murphy really kind of
31:56
resurrected
31:58
his visibility to a whole new
32:00
demographic right um
32:03
yeah
32:04
and it was you know in some ways it was
32:06
a mixed bag
32:08
um some people who knew him say that at
32:09
a certain point it started to drive him
32:11
nuts other people say he lived it up and
32:13
loved it
32:14
either way
32:16
that's what makes him so contemporary if
32:18
that rick james [ __ ] moment would have
32:20
happened in 2021 it would have broken
32:22
the internet
32:23
you know what i'm saying
32:25
so
32:26
rick recognized that
32:28
in order to be contemporary in these
32:29
contemporary times people have to latch
32:32
on to your personality you can be the
32:33
most prolific musician ever you can play
32:35
the guitar better than prince who gives
32:37
a [ __ ] like who are you what are you
32:40
about are you funny are you serious are
32:42
you political do you stand for anything
32:44
and rick james was all those things so
32:47
the
32:48
chappelle situation
32:50
propelled his situation and
32:53
got him back in the public eye and i
32:55
think he was appreciative of that
32:57
okay
32:58
um a couple of things i want to ask you
33:00
man i i sat and did a
33:03
this isn't rick james related this is
33:04
sasha jenkins related
33:06
and um i sat and did a conversation um
33:10
about hip-hop
33:11
for a series called hip-hop 50.
33:16
you've you heard of this one right
33:17
you're familiar with it you're familiar
33:19
with it
33:20
um
33:21
and then celebrating it's the 50th and
33:23
the 50th anniversary of hip-hop as a
33:25
culture
33:26
yes
33:27
and what is your role in that are you
33:29
directing and producing this right
33:31
yeah i mean there there are films and
33:33
television shows and podcasts books and
33:36
all these things that mass appeal is
33:37
doing in advance and leading up to the
33:40
50th anniversary of hip-hop which is
33:43
august 11
33:45
2023
33:47
so
33:49
you know it's it's you know mass appeal
33:52
uh was very forward thinking in
33:55
knowing that this is an important
33:57
milestone
33:58
and
33:59
how can we celebrate it how can we
34:02
wrap our arms around
34:04
all the tentacles of hip-hop and the
34:06
influence of hip-hop because
34:08
i mean i love rock and roll and all that
34:10
but nobody you know it's like no one
34:12
cares about bon jovi at this point you
34:15
know um hip-hop is the most relevant
34:18
most after voice and it's not just music
34:21
as you know it's culture it's identity
34:23
it's language it's food it's
34:25
jewelry it's it's
34:27
a way to live
34:29
and it's unescapable
34:31
uh
34:32
so we're just shining a light on the
34:34
many
34:35
facets of hip-hop leading up to its
34:37
anniversary and celebrating it along the
34:39
way and being critical of it as well
34:43
rich you want to have you want to add
34:44
any final questions yeah um what's the
34:48
one takeaway you want people to have
34:50
from the film outside of the
34:52
entertainment part if there was one
34:53
thing you wanted people to get from this
34:55
rick james film
34:57
um you know that people are
35:00
flawed and brilliant at the same time
35:03
people are
35:04
weak and strong weak in some regards and
35:07
strong in other regards and
35:10
that's how we survive and that's how we
35:12
perish
35:13
you know it's the choices we make
35:16
that dictate where we wind up going
35:18
sometimes it's luck and being at the
35:20
right place at the right time
35:22
but if you look at someone like rick
35:24
james he was at the right place at the
35:26
right time many times
35:28
but
35:29
he just didn't give up on himself he
35:30
didn't give up on his dream
35:32
well into his 30s he didn't give up and
35:34
i think
35:36
regardless of how you feel about him
35:38
you can't take away his determination
35:41
and i think
35:42
there are lessons to be learned in his
35:44
determination and his inspiration his
35:46
determination that i think we all can
35:48
benefit from and
35:50
the incredible thing about music is it's
35:52
such a legacy
35:54
work of art
35:55
you know he's still alive in many way
35:57
regards you know
35:59
we had some um
36:00
some demos and we had some like
36:03
inside tracks
36:05
one of the tracks you can hear in the
36:06
film where you hear rick giving
36:09
direction to his musicians
36:11
and he's saying all right [ __ ] it your
36:12
fingers are wearing out you're getting
36:14
tired there's a stop you need laughs you
36:16
know it's like
36:19
just this opportunity to
36:21
get to know someone on that level that i
36:24
had to with the research and the team
36:26
and everyone who worked really hard to
36:27
make it
36:28
we all had the opportunity to make
36:30
something that was a portrait
36:32
of someone who
36:34
you know i went to martha's vineyard for
36:36
the first time for the black film
36:37
festival there african-american film
36:39
festival and an older gentleman came up
36:41
to me and said i grew up with rick james
36:43
in buffalo since i was five years old
36:45
let me tell you you guys did a
36:47
phenomenal job
36:49
so when i hear stuff like that it's just
36:51
like
36:54
you know representing the to the best of
36:56
my abilities
36:57
representing who he was to the best of
37:00
my abilities and people learning
37:02
something and i think
37:03
there are great things you can learn
37:04
from his successes and great things that
37:06
you can learn from his failures
37:09
love it man sasha i appreciate you man
37:12
thank you for taking his time out with
37:13
us here at swayze universe man you
37:15
listen
37:16
i try to be a citizen every day man i'm
37:19
on serious i hear it mahalia jackson and
37:21
all that you know what i'm saying it's
37:23
great oh man i appreciate you man i
37:25
thank you very kindly sir and then uh
37:28
we're gonna encourage everybody to watch
37:29
[ __ ] in the sound and fury of rick
37:31
james says on show time job well done
37:33
rich let's get that man around him
37:35
thank you for your contribution man your
37:36
work is very important keep doing what
37:38
you're doing brother
37:39
simpson street i see you
37:41
ah
37:43
you know about that did you see llama
37:45
dream of my wife's film about laureen
37:48
that's my aunt i know that that's why
37:50
i'm talking to you directly pointing it
37:52
yeah yeah
37:55
she she she's been i've seen the film in
37:57
pieces i haven't seen it in one sitting
37:59
so i need to see it in one sitting i
38:00
only saw the pieces because they did
38:02
like a private online thing and i saw a
38:04
piece of that and then and i just saw
38:06
her unfortunately at a funeral about
38:09
about three weeks ago
38:11
right supposed to get together um to
38:13
really catch up right that's the idea i
38:16
didn't know that your wife did that film
38:17
yeah
38:19
yeah she's actually more talented than
38:21
he is rich she actually is she's smarter
38:24
better looking than me and and a great
38:27
director as well
38:29
this guy your boy rich knight is his
38:30
hip-hop pedigree
38:32
if you know who his aunt is i mean
38:34
that's where hip-hop begins um so
38:37
yeah he's thorough in these streets yeah
38:40
he got other family members that run
38:41
deep in music too you know we might have
38:44
to do a rich nice doc
38:48
why not first rapper on motown why not
38:52
uh sasha thank you brother appreciate
38:54
you yeah anytime see you soon okay
38:57
before you hang up those before you hang
38:59
up yeah uh i want to talk to you too
39:01
when we started a conversation about me
39:03
and tech and i know peter felt like the
39:05
job was too expensive or too big but i
39:07
still want to tap in with you if you
39:09
don't mind and see if you could
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