0:00
Which is classical conditioning.
0:01
>> there's that, but but I think when you
0:03
think about like we cannot just focus on
0:05
abstinence and behavioral change and
0:08
white-knuckling it or controlling
0:10
behavior because it misses the most
0:12
important part, which is
0:14
really getting to the underlying reason
0:16
that someone needs to use in the first
0:18
place. And if we don't address the
0:20
environments that we are in, we don't
0:22
address helping people have the kind of
0:25
care and connection and support they
0:27
need, addressing people with more
0:32
curiosity, understanding. Those are the
0:35
things that we're often missing in
0:37
treatment centers, in the addiction
0:40
model, and in family systems when we
0:43
>> As practitioners, I think that's often
0:45
what we miss in the interviewing uh in
0:47
conceptualization component. Just tell
0:49
me about the the best time
0:52
>> when you got high or drunk or did this
0:54
>> And it gets locked in.
0:55
>> And it gets locked in, but
0:57
>> and and not even from like a a protocol
0:59
perspective, but from a curiosity
1:01
perspective of how did this enter your
1:03
life and tell me all the good things
1:05
about it because the the narratives will
1:09
>> And then it's about, okay, how do we
1:13
or more adaptive ways to get that need
1:16
>> without the classic substance.
1:19
>> hard even when we figure that out, it's
1:20
very hard to get those positive feelings
1:23
that are state-dependent and
1:25
behaviorally coupled uncoupled without
1:28
doing honestly some EMDR
1:30
>> They just don't want to uncouple because
1:32
it's like pathway works, pathway works,
1:35
brain goes that way, what fires together
1:37
wires together, and it's just something
1:38
that I see so frequently. But But what
1:41
And I'll talk about this more in our
1:42
next episode, but one thing that I I
1:45
love so much when I get to do this work
1:47
with somebody is when somebody's truly
1:49
ready. They're like, I get it, I see it,
1:51
the natural consequences do not the
1:53
negative natural consequences are not
1:55
strong enough to override the positive
1:57
feelings that have been coupled in the
1:59
behavior. And so I just I get it. I see
2:01
it. I just don't want it to win. And And
2:04
you know, when I get to do that work
2:05
with people and who are truly like ready
2:07
to not have it have such a stronghold on
2:10
it uncouples so much faster than trauma
2:13
memories uncouple. It's fascinating.
2:16
>> Yeah. I'll give you an I'll give you an
2:19
pretty profound for me was was working
2:22
with a client. I get brought into an
2:24
intensive. So he's seen a bunch of
2:25
different clinicians who all had
2:27
different perspectives.
2:32
right? Of Of Of habits and how they
2:35
viewed behavior and conceptualized cases
2:37
and how they treated it. And I kind of
2:38
came in as a newbie into this
2:41
the situation. And there was a
2:44
middle-aged male, very financially
2:46
successful, very professionally
2:49
Beautiful family, you know, from all the
2:55
identified as a cocaine addict.
2:58
And so his MO was everything's really
3:02
great. And then all of a sudden out of
3:04
nowhere, he goes and does like a 3-day
3:07
And just blows his life up. And then
3:11
the the family requires that he do
3:13
something about it. And then he spends
3:14
all, you know, months and months and
3:15
months. He'll either go to some level of
3:19
>> Well, that's what I That's what I That's
3:22
where I was like, "Hey, if if I can, you
3:24
know, I'm I'm curious cuz we kind of
3:26
looked at, you know, what do you get out
3:27
of this behavior? What are you seeking?"
3:29
And what I proposed was I don't think
3:32
you're addicted to cocaine. I think
3:33
you're addicted to chaos.
3:35
>> And he needs to fix the problem.
3:36
>> There's a part of him, right? There was
3:38
a part of him that was so anxiously
3:42
pursuing perfection and stability and
3:45
balance. And when it was so balanced,
3:49
he There There a part of him that had to
3:51
blow it up so that he could fix it.
3:54
>> Have something to do.
3:54
>> Have something to do.
