Up next in 10
Welcome to Adaptable | Behavior Explained, in this episode, I’m joined by Victoria Brandt for a conversation on Choosing Your Hard, how avoiding discomfort today can often create deeper struggles later. We explore boundaries, emotional avoidance, nervous system patterns, and why growth usually feels uncomfortable before it feels freeing. Sometimes the hardest choices are the ones that ultimately bring the most peace and healing.
I'm Kelly O'Horo, Attachment based EMDR Therapist, EMDRIA Consultant, and Advanced Trainer. I'm a mom of 5, Nonna of 5, wife, and a healer. I have the honor of spending my workdays walking along side people while they brave their healing journeys. I try to live with the generous assumption that we're all doing the best we can with what we know. Therapists are teachers for the "life stuff" and "emotional vocabulary" that may not have been learned due to gaps in our care givers capabilities. In the last 15 years I've learned that people are freaking amazing, resilient, and inspiring. Most importantly, we are hardwired for connection and for healing!
I hope to bring an authentic, compassionate, and unpolished approach while we explore a variety of topics such as parenting, marriage, relationships, dating, trauma, attachment, adoption, depression, addiction, anxiety, and love! There's a why for all behaviors and an explanation that makes perfect sense as emotion is at the root of it all.
-- Links --
https://linktr.ee/kellyohorolpc
https://youtu.be/rLnARKekvgo
https://www.emdria.org/find-an-emdr-therapist/
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0:06
Hi everyone, I'm Kelly O'Horo and this
0:09
is Adaptable Behavior Explained. Hi
0:12
everybody. I'm so glad you're here today
0:14
because today we're going to talk about
0:16
something that's on really everybody's
0:19
agenda and that's choosing the hard. Um,
0:22
when I when I say choose the hard, I
0:24
think that we're presented with issues
0:26
in our lives that have consequences
0:28
whether we choose the thing that's easy
0:29
to deal with or that we choose the thing
0:31
that takes more discipline and energy.
0:34
And at the end of the day, both are hard
0:36
and the outcomes that happen are are
0:39
really our consequences or our outcomes
0:41
to face. And so the heart isn't optional
0:44
in our life. And I want you to think
0:46
about that. you know what what comes up
0:48
for you when you think about choosing
0:50
the hard. Um most of us spend years
0:53
trying to find a version of our life
0:55
that isn't hard when the real choice is
0:57
simply which heart are you willing to
0:59
carry. And today um I'm really excited
1:01
to have with us our guest who is uh
1:05
Victoria. And um she's going to talk to
1:08
us a little bit about what that's been
1:10
like for her. And we're going to just
1:11
dig into that real version of what
1:14
choosing the hard means. So, Victoria,
1:16
please introduce yourself. I'm so glad
1:18
you're here.
1:18
>> Thanks, Kelly. So, my name is Victoria
1:20
Brandt. I've been a therapist at
1:23
Infinite Healing and Wellness for five
1:25
years now. It's been fantastic to work
1:28
with clients um kind of around this
1:31
topic because therapy is one of I think
1:33
the ultimate choosing your hearts. Yeah.
1:36
But personally, I've kind of been facing
1:39
this a lot as well, most recently with
1:43
exercise and nutrition, which I think is
1:45
a huge hard for everybody right now.
1:48
>> It's kind of choose the hard, like the
1:50
relentless choose the hard in our lives.
1:52
And you know, when you think about it,
1:54
like waking up early to care for your
1:56
body is hard, but living in a body that
1:58
hurts all the time or that's out of
1:59
shape or that's prone to illness is
2:01
hard.
2:02
>> And and I would say even harder. I would
2:05
say harder as well.
2:06
>> Having honest conversations like this is
2:08
hard. You know, living silent distance
2:11
of resentment when you're unwilling to
2:13
have hard conversations is hard. It's
2:16
painful. You know, setting boundaries is
2:19
hard because of the discomfort that
2:20
comes from the potential conflict. And
2:23
living without boundaries and that
2:25
frenetic,
2:27
feverish,
2:28
>> it's also hard.
2:29
>> It's so hard.
2:30
>> It's hard and painful and it hurts your
2:32
relationships. It's about though
2:34
deciding, do I want to deal with hard
2:37
now and can I tolerate that knowing it's
2:39
going to help things feel better or am I
2:41
just going to kind of stay in the status
2:42
quo and have to deal with it later when
2:46
it's compounded and worse and it's going
2:48
to take a whole lot more effort to make
2:50
things better.
2:51
>> Yeah, that staying stuck is is really
2:53
hard. the reactivity of the problem that
2:56
comes from the avoidance of one version
2:59
of hard
3:00
>> is is frustrating as well. And I think
3:03
that's what we listen to in the therapy
3:05
office all the time. It's whether it's
3:08
in a relationship, whether it's personal
3:10
health, whether it's, you know, how I
3:12
look and what I want to do about how I
3:14
look. Uh, you know, getting in the arena
3:17
with dating or staying home and, you
3:20
know, binging on Netflix. It's like all
3:22
of these things are problems andor
3:25
issues that people bring to our office
3:27
every day. And I think this episode is
3:30
important because hard is unavoidable.
3:33
You know, it it really really is. So
3:35
today, we're not going to talk about how
3:37
do we push ourselves harder. It's not
3:39
about hustle and it's not meant to
3:41
induce shame. It's it's really to
3:45
>> lean into the fact that we all have
3:46
choices.
3:48
>> And I tell my clients this all the time.
3:50
you know, we we choose our life's
3:53
direction and then we get to be
3:56
empowered by the choice if we're happy
3:57
with it or we have to face the regret or
4:00
the guilt or the shame in some cases if
4:02
we're not happy with the choices that
4:03
we've made in hindsight. And I think
4:06
that that's something that we, you know,
4:08
as therapists, again, we have real
4:10
conversations about this every day. And
4:12
so, we're going to talk about those
4:13
tradeoffs a little bit. You know what
4:15
what do people face in their work their
4:18
relationships in the topic of healing
4:20
and you know the choice to go to therapy
4:24
to meditate to cold plunge to sauna to
4:29
you know read to turn off their cell
4:31
phones to get off social media all these
4:34
things that pull us away from our best
4:36
selves or lean us toward that if we
4:38
choose that I think are really a daily
4:40
choice. So it is well I know what gets
4:42
in the way for me most often is thinking
4:45
that I have more time to make a
4:47
different choice like today me I'm okay
4:50
with how things are things are okay
4:52
enough where I don't feel enough
4:55
discomfort to be urged to make a
4:58
different choice but I also have it in
5:00
the back of my mind that I wish things
5:01
were maybe better or different in
5:03
various ways but that's a issue for
5:05
tomorrow me and so that's what I face
5:08
most often um in so many areas, fitness,
5:13
mindfulness, various issues, eating
5:16
choices, various things around just kind
5:18
of wellness. And
5:20
>> substance use is a huge one that people
5:22
struggle with, you know, regularly
5:24
>> uh as far as what's too much, what's
5:26
impulsive, what's what's being done to
5:29
feel a better way, what's being done to
5:30
avoid a bad way that we're feeling.
5:32
>> Yeah. Substances encompassing sugar,
5:35
too, I think, is one of that's my
5:37
biggie. And I think it's something
5:39
that's overlooked a lot as something
5:40
that's I think socially become really
5:42
acceptable to turn to.
5:44
>> Whereas, you know, it's it's incredibly
5:47
addictive and really one of those things
5:49
that's most harmful in the long run.
5:50
>> Sure.
5:51
>> I think it's alcohol for the poison
5:53
number one and sugar for the poison
5:54
number two when it comes to like
5:55
long-term damage on our bodies and
5:57
whatnot.
5:58
>> So, where do you see areas where people
6:02
>> most regularly are trying to opt out of
6:04
hard? You know, I mean, I think we're
6:06
looking for the easy button. We're
6:07
looking to find peace. I air quote that
6:09
on purpose because I think, you know,
6:11
especially as into stoicism as I have
6:14
been lately.
6:15
>> I don't think that's the agenda. I think
6:16
that's the desired outcome, the absence
6:19
of anxiety or whatever.
6:21
>> Absolutely.
6:21
>> I think one of the one of the main areas
6:25
where this shows up, and you've talked
6:26
about this a bit on the podcast, is
6:28
people confusing boundaries with walls.
6:30
Yeah. in saying I don't want to have the
6:32
hard conflict with my family members,
6:35
with my friends, with the people in my
6:37
life to figure out how do we interact in
6:39
a way that's healthier and supports what
6:42
I'm comfortable with, but also maintains
6:43
a relationship. And so they say that
6:45
they're putting up boundaries when in
6:46
fact it's a wall, right?
6:48
>> To avoid the hard of kind of having to
6:52
rumble with,
6:53
>> you know, having having conflict for
6:56
various ways.
6:56
>> And I mean, I think we make up stories.
6:59
What do you think the story that someone
7:01
is doing that they're they're avoiding
7:02
the hard conversation? They're avoiding
7:04
the potential conflict, the lack of
7:07
ability to manage conflict resolution in
7:10
their own skill sets or their doubt in
7:12
the other person that they can like
7:14
let's say, you know, I'm someone who
7:16
thinks I can go manage this conflict
7:17
conversation, but then I don't think you
7:20
can, whoever the you is. But I'm
7:22
curious, what do you think the stories
7:24
people make up that they tell themselves
7:26
that justifies the avoidance on this
7:28
topic specifically?
7:29
>> Oh, so many different stories. I mean, I
7:32
get to hear them a lot from clients and
7:35
I know that I have probably a handful
7:36
that I make up for myself, too. Sure.
7:38
>> Around this. Let me think on ones that
7:41
come up. Is there any that are ready for
7:43
your mind? Well, I even I even was
7:46
thinking about something, you know, in
7:48
our in my personal life recently where,
7:50
you know, there was a kind of a strange
7:52
conversation that happened via text,
7:54
which I mean, I always joke that we
7:56
could have an entire business book, uh,
7:58
like a book of business on just
8:00
miscommunication with text,
8:01
misunderstanding with text, or honestly
8:04
the impulsivity that happens when I'm
8:06
feeling an emotion and if I go to send a
8:09
text and it's this long and then I send
8:12
a follow-up that's this long, I'm like,
8:14
"Oh, they're activated. There's no way
8:16
they're not because it's too impulsive
8:18
and it's not thought out and it
8:19
generally matches pitch." Like, there's
8:21
a projected element of that message.
8:23
>> But there was an there was a thing that
8:25
happened with um with with someone in
8:28
our lives where there was this that very
8:30
thing happened where there was like this
8:32
delivery of of texts that were was full
8:34
of quite a bit of an emotion, you know,
8:36
and I'm very generous assumption. I want
8:39
to go and address it and be like, what's
8:40
going on here? Even though projections
8:43
were blaming, accusatory, pretty pretty
8:46
unkind,
8:48
I could see that it was coming from a
8:49
place of hurt, you know, and my stance
8:51
is like,
8:52
>> let's go be curious, open, and and check
8:54
into it. And my husband's like, you
8:57
don't have to put up with that if people
8:58
are so irresponsible with their
9:00
emotional experience. I don't have to.
9:02
And I'm like, that's true, but they
9:04
wouldn't even necessarily know that that
9:06
was your emotional experience if you
9:07
don't first go and say that. So, you
9:09
know, that that would be an example of I
9:11
would say choosing
9:12
>> right
9:13
>> choosing my heart is like I don't have
9:15
to. And I'm like, but what's the cost to
9:18
me? That's not necessarily the best
9:20
communication. And at the same point,
9:22
you know, he's not wrong.
9:24
>> It kind of the phrase that I think is
9:26
really kind of unhealthy, but is is kind
9:29
of thrown around often that, you know,
9:31
if you can't handle me at my worst, you
9:32
don't deserve me at my best. And I think
9:35
that that is something that comes into
9:36
play too of people.
9:37
>> That's a cop out. Don't you think
9:38
>> it absolutely is But people
9:41
will or you know this is just how I am.
9:43
>> Oh, I love that one.
9:44
>> This is just how I am.
9:45
>> This is just this is just me. I'm like
9:47
this is just the you who's too scared to
9:48
change or is unwilling to change or is
9:50
unwilling or is in denial about the need
9:52
or the possibility. That's probably more
9:54
of it. It's not possible. So here I am.
9:56
Take it or you know like it or love it.
9:59
>> Yeah. And it's sad because it's not
10:01
saying that or I think it's a shame
10:03
response of of feeling like that I feel
10:06
bad. I feel there's something really
10:08
wrong with me that I'm that I'm getting
10:10
this feedback. And it's not that there's
10:12
anything wrong with you. It's that we
10:14
all have opportunities to grow and
10:15
improve oursel as we as we grow, you
10:18
know, as we age, right?
10:19
>> It's we're not stuck in one version.
10:22
>> Um and the possibility to grow and
10:23
improve doesn't mean that there's
10:24
anything wrong with the version of you
10:25
right now. But I think there that brings
10:28
me to another point which is like being
10:30
able to have some shame resilience or
10:32
some shame tolerance which has
10:34
everything to do with one's history and
10:35
their level of attachment and their
10:37
nurture and their worthiness in of in
10:40
and of themselves. You know, it's it's
10:42
about being able to say, you know, that
10:44
isn't that isn't the best version of me.
10:46
It's not in line with who I want to be.
10:48
>> And yes, I did it and and no, it isn't
10:50
good enough. Not I'm not good enough,
10:52
but that isn't good enough. And I think
10:54
some people really struggle with that
10:56
delineation
10:58
>> of the badness of me is not the same as
11:00
the mistakes that I've made or the or
11:02
the areas of growth that I deal with.
11:05
For sure.
11:06
>> And it could be it's not good enough or
11:08
it's just not working.
11:10
>> It's just not effective. You're getting
11:12
constant feedback from people in your
11:14
life that is the way that you share
11:16
things isn't landing right. Right. And
11:18
rather than taking that as you know some
11:21
saying something wrong about you and
11:22
then saying well I'm not I don't want to
11:24
hear this
11:24
>> right
11:25
>> I'm going to cut you off
11:26
>> right
11:26
>> can you engage with that with curiosity
11:28
what's going on where I'm getting this
11:29
constant feedback in my life and can I
11:31
choose the hard which is self-reflection
11:34
>> sure
11:34
>> to say okay I might have something I
11:36
need to look at around this
11:37
>> and tolerating the shame of not knowing
11:40
how to either do it different or be
11:43
different or
11:44
>> even having trusted people that you can
11:46
go to that will give you, you know, the
11:48
honest hard conversation about the
11:51
truth. I mean, that's my husband. You
11:53
gave me a little bit of when we sat
11:54
down. I was like, I'm sorry about the
11:56
squirrelininess. You're like, I wouldn't
11:57
expect anything else. I was like, true.
11:59
Also, jerk, you know, but it's also it's
12:01
true.
12:02
>> And that's one of like my most treasured
12:04
traits about my husband is that I really
12:06
trust that he's fully in my corner. And
12:08
sometimes that means he's going to call
12:10
me out on what I don't see in myself.
12:12
>> And I and I think that's really
12:14
important too, like in leadership roles
12:16
for me. I mean, I have strong people
12:17
around me, such as yourself, that are
12:19
willing to call me out on my stuff
12:21
>> so that I don't
12:22
>> bleed it in because of blind spots and
12:25
and or anxiety or overwhelm or all these
12:28
other things that happen,
12:29
>> you know, in our lives that
12:31
>> are part of,
12:33
>> you know, when things aren't going our
12:34
very best,
12:36
>> you know, for sure. But I think
12:37
something else we really need to talk
12:38
about, especially on this show, is
12:41
related to the adaptation of protection.
12:44
And I think the choosing comfort
12:47
>> is really the element of protection.
12:49
It's really about going, you know, from
12:52
like a nervous system perspective. Um
12:54
the short-term discomfort is so hard.
12:57
It's hard to tolerate and that's about
12:58
my bandwidth. That's about what we've
13:00
talked about on other shows, the window
13:01
of tolerance. And I can't think and feel
13:04
at the same time. And so I either go
13:06
into that like hyperaroused state where
13:08
I tend to go. I tend to go to like all
13:11
in all good. it's got to be perfect or
13:14
I've failed, you know, and not being
13:18
able to be in the more medium place
13:20
related to like leaning into discomfort
13:22
about certain things. So,
13:24
>> my mind goes to the ways that they
13:26
protect, thinking of like how animals
13:29
protect themselves,
13:30
>> retreating into a shell if you're a
13:32
turtle, right?
13:33
>> Burrowing down into the ground, you
13:35
know, if you're an animal that burrows
13:37
or someone who hibernates. And there's
13:39
safety in that, but there's also
13:42
aloneeness,
13:43
>> isolation,
13:44
>> a there's a cost.
13:45
>> And that's hard,
13:46
>> right? It's hard to be un
13:49
>> unprotected, meaning I think vulnerable.
13:51
>> Yeah.
13:52
>> And you know, there's risk in that,
13:54
>> but that's where the reward is.
13:55
>> Yeah. But I think that to be clear, the
13:57
vulnerability and the risk typically is
14:00
facing the fear of failure of I did, you
14:02
know, I committed to the workout, the
14:05
diet, the meditation, and I missed a day
14:08
or I drank a beer or I had a, you know,
14:11
a bunch of dessert or whatever it is
14:13
that I did that would be like the
14:14
failure. And I think that people choose
14:16
the familiar
14:19
of the discomfort that they know
14:21
>> over the unfamiliar of the maybe the
14:24
deprivation or the leaning into the
14:26
discomfort or whatever it is.
14:28
>> Yeah.
14:29
>> Yeah. And when you think about
14:32
protection,
14:33
avoidance as protection as opposed to
14:36
failure, how would you want to talk to
14:38
our audience about that? Does that make
14:40
sense? avoidance as
14:43
>> like I'm avoiding the hard conversation
14:45
or I'm avoiding the diet. I'll start
14:47
next. I'm good enough. It's good enough.
14:49
I'm you know I I mean
14:50
>> oh I do all the mental gymnastics around
14:52
that. So I can speak to it because
14:54
>> I'm playing that game like back and
14:55
forth right now even about just like my
14:57
physique at 50 and like I'm good 450. I
15:01
don't want to be good 450. I want to be
15:03
good just good. Like leave off the 450
15:05
please. It feels like a well you know
15:07
because when you're old you shouldn't
15:08
look good anymore. Like it just to me it
15:10
has this underpinning of that and I
15:12
noticed myself going back I'm too hard
15:14
on myself. I need to just relax. And
15:15
then the other side is like no you get
15:17
what you put into it.
15:18
>> Yeah.
15:18
>> And it's choosing whichever hard.
15:20
>> Yeah. I go through a lot of the same
15:22
things. I'll have the part of me that's
15:24
like
15:24
>> this is important to you. You've said
15:27
over and over that this is important to
15:28
you. You need to commit to that and be
15:30
in alignment with your values. Right?
15:32
>> And then it's Friday and the part of me
15:35
that comes up it's like just live your
15:37
life. you want to enjoy life, right?
15:39
>> Uh and I the shift to try to say, you
15:42
know, I want to enjoy my life,
15:45
>> not just right now,
15:46
>> but to make choices that are going to
15:48
help me to enjoy it for for years down
15:51
the road. And not just around, I think,
15:52
health, but also
15:54
>> relationships, having a hard
15:55
conversation
15:56
>> when it needs to happen, being able to
15:59
handle conflict if you know we need to
16:02
have a a hard talk, you know, my husband
16:04
and I,
16:05
>> that's that's very real. and that in the
16:07
moment it feels like discomfort, but
16:09
it's going to, you know, help with
16:11
repair,
16:12
>> um, help us feel closer, unearth what
16:15
needs to be talked about.
16:16
>> Sure. And when when would you say that
16:18
the protection or the habit or the
16:20
pattern, you know, I would say choosing
16:23
the heart of avoiding
16:25
>> because I really think that's what it's
16:26
about. It's like we're avoiding the the
16:28
push. But when when do you think that
16:31
becomes costly?
16:33
>> Oh, it's always costly. I think I think
16:36
that but it's most apparent when
16:41
I think when it gets bad enough and and
16:43
for everyone that could be a different
16:45
>> that can be a different threshold,
16:47
>> right? like in a relationship maybe it's
16:49
you know we're bringing on divorce or
16:51
we're we're talking about breaking up or
16:53
you know in health it's like oh
16:56
>> I I have a chronic I've developed a
16:58
chronic illness or there's a pain that I
16:59
can't ignore anymore
17:02
>> or I feel winded going up to my
17:06
apartment up the couple steps of stairs
17:08
and then you realize that it's probably
17:09
time that we do something about it
17:11
>> right like where do you where do you
17:13
notice the body paying the price for
17:16
avoidant behavior the most from your
17:18
experience?
17:21
>> Well, I think that
17:22
>> it could be personal or it could be with
17:23
clients.
17:24
>> Yeah,
17:26
I think with with clients and where and
17:29
even personally I get think where my
17:31
mind goes is just the Louisa Hayes book
17:35
uh around what our body will manifest
17:39
>> when we're ignoring something, when
17:40
we're holding something in, when we're
17:42
not facing something. Right.
17:43
>> So, my mind always goes to kind of
17:45
chronic illnesses and and you know,
17:48
autoimmune issues
17:50
>> like the body keeps the score no matter
17:51
what. And for those of you who are
17:53
unfamiliar, Bessel Vanderulk has a
17:56
beautiful body of work on this and
17:57
really brought it to mainstream mental
18:00
health concepts and and even medical
18:03
doctor concepts related to you know we
18:06
can avoid things for so long until we
18:09
end up in illness in disease disees. You
18:12
know, when our body has had an excessive
18:15
amount of cortisol and the adrenal
18:17
response is maxed and then we end up
18:19
with autoimmune issues and we end up
18:21
with disease and we end up with
18:24
gastrointestinal issues. I've got a
18:25
whole show on that um earlier in season
18:28
one that if this is resonating, check it
18:30
out for sure.
18:31
>> But, you know, why do you think
18:33
preventative choices feel harder than
18:35
like the crisis response? Why do we have
18:37
to wait? What do you think that's about?
18:40
Why do we have to wait till it's so bad
18:42
before we're like, "Okay, uncle."
18:44
>> Because it's it's it's a different hard
18:47
to do the things,
18:48
>> right?
18:49
>> It can it's that metaphor of like the
18:54
the frog slowly boiling in water.
18:56
>> If you dropped the frog into the pot of
18:59
boiling water right away, it's going to
19:00
jump right out. Right.
19:01
>> And I think we would too if we woke up
19:03
suddenly, you know, 10 years from now
19:05
facing the apex version of what we're
19:08
dealing with. But when it comes gradual,
19:10
it's easy to sit in like a place of
19:12
denial that things aren't really that
19:14
bad,
19:14
>> right?
19:15
>> Yeah.
19:15
>> I think that something that's helped me
19:17
and I filtered this year specifically
19:20
has been like I want to do things today
19:22
that my future Kelly will be happy with,
19:25
aka won't be pissed at my previous
19:27
Kelly. Like previous Kelly really blew
19:30
it here. And so what do I do in order to
19:32
make that a choice today, you know? And
19:35
I I I made an agreement with myself. Um,
19:38
one of my sons is doing 75 hard and he
19:41
just finished up and you know it was it
19:43
was admirable because he started over I
19:45
think once or twice because he messed up
19:47
and
19:48
>> and good for him for starting over.
19:49
>> Most people I think would scrap it. I
19:52
might scrap it
19:53
>> because of my perfectionist stuff,
19:54
>> right? It's like this is just too hard
19:56
>> which often will keep me from starting
19:57
things too. I've I I like to think that
20:00
I've grown in that area
20:01
>> of I can try something without knowing
20:04
that I'm going to be great at it.
20:05
>> Like today doesn't have to be perfect.
20:06
Yeah. I I um I did a thing. I started on
20:09
March 7th. Um I've got a birthday trip
20:11
coming up and you know there will be a
20:13
lot of bathing suit time involved. And I
20:15
was thinking I don't want to be annoyed
20:17
with myself
20:18
>> of all the the choices I've made with
20:21
diet or exercise or alcohol or any of
20:23
those things that don't contribute to a
20:26
better, you know, physical presence. And
20:28
not because of what anyone else is
20:30
thinking, but because I don't want to be
20:32
like, I need to go throw on a cover up.
20:33
I'm not happy with what I'm seeing. I'm
20:35
like, I didn't want to have my trip feel
20:37
like that for myself. And I know it's
20:39
just me against me. Nobody cares and
20:41
whatever else. But um I decided that I
20:44
was going to take a break from eating
20:46
like, you know, complex carbs. I was
20:48
going to um cut out alcohol, definitely
20:51
cutting out sugar, like no more desserts
20:53
and things like that because all of
20:54
that, even though it's hard, it's really
20:57
only hard for the first week or two and
20:59
then it starts to become more normal for
21:01
me.
21:02
>> Yeah. My big thing with that was like,
21:05
as you know,
21:06
>> I had to cut out sugar because I in in
21:09
the way that you would think about
21:11
someone who has a struggle with
21:13
addiction,
21:14
>> that was me with sugar truly in a way.
21:17
>> I can remember saying to you like, you
21:18
can just have a half a cookie.
21:19
>> And I'm like, I cannot.
21:20
>> Yeah,
21:20
>> I cannot. If I have one bite, I'm going
21:22
to have 17 cookies.
21:23
>> Right.
21:24
>> And that's only a slight exaggeration,
21:27
right? I really got to a place where I
21:29
was having a lot of shame around my
21:31
sugar intake.
21:32
>> Sure.
21:33
>> In the behaviors around it, feeling
21:35
like, oh my gosh, this like I'm so glad
21:37
that it's only sugar that I'm struggling
21:39
with because if this were any other
21:41
substance, I would really be in trouble.
21:43
>> Which gives you a lot of compassion for
21:45
you struggle with like the the you know
21:47
what I call the too muches for sure. And
21:50
to put it I think in some context if if
21:52
is that I would leave in the middle of a
21:54
work day to go get Dairy Queen because I
21:57
couldn't I couldn't tolerate it or I
21:59
there in the peak of how bad it was. I
22:02
woke up with such strong sugar cravings
22:04
that I had to go and wait for Dairy
22:05
Queen to open
22:07
>> so that I could have ice cream.
22:08
>> And I realized
22:09
>> this is this is a problem. This is
22:11
running my life. It got to that tipping
22:14
point of where it was bad enough
22:16
>> and I was hiding it and really shameful
22:19
>> and so
22:20
>> it breaks my heart for you. I didn't
22:21
know that it was that hard.
22:23
>> Oh, it was very hard.
22:24
>> I'm sorry. I was a little pushy about
22:25
having cookie at times because like I
22:27
didn't that
22:29
>> it was hard.
22:30
>> Um and it got to a point where I'm like
22:34
kind of like a just a breaking point of
22:37
like I can't I don't want this to be my
22:39
life,
22:39
>> right? You don't want it to be like like
22:41
you don't want to be Sugar's
22:42
>> No, I don't. And I'm like and I'm still
22:45
young enough where this hasn't fully
22:47
caught up with my body, but it will
22:49
eventually if I keep on this track. And
22:51
so
22:52
>> 2023
22:54
September, I just cut it out. And I had
22:57
done that
22:58
>> long.
22:58
>> Yeah. And more recently, I've had a slip
23:00
up with it just to show that, you know,
23:02
it's not perfect. I'd been off of it for
23:04
over two years. Like purely no I mean
23:08
sugar in some things but like no obvious
23:10
sugars.
23:10
>> Right. You're not like going for the
23:12
dessert.
23:12
>> No. No. I had no ice cream, no cookies,
23:14
nothing like that.
23:15
>> Sugar in it. You're not alien.
23:16
>> I'm not going to cut out ketchup. I'm
23:18
not I wasn't going. Ketchup isn't
23:19
something that would trigger me to like
23:20
want to go.
23:21
>> Yeah. You're not waiting.
23:22
>> I'm not going to go squirt the ketchup
23:23
bottle in my mouth.
23:24
>> The ketchup in the middle of the night.
23:25
>> No. Um but it was really hard. It was a
23:29
hard I think first three weeks to be
23:32
able to handle it and and let that be
23:34
gone. It is hard, that's for sure.
23:36
>> But then it's also I mean I felt so much
23:38
pride in that it had been over two years
23:40
and then I would say recently I've had I
23:42
had a hard time emotionally and I
23:44
slipped back into that being my coping.
23:46
>> Yeah.
23:46
>> Yeah.
23:46
>> Well, and I was going to bring up
23:47
something related to me kind of taking
23:49
on this goal. I said I'm going to do my
23:50
version of 75 hard. It's it's about the
23:52
right amount of days, but I'm not going
23:54
to do two workouts a day. I'm not going
23:56
to do that. But I just, you know, it was
23:58
kind it's kind of trending. It's in
23:59
vogue to like do these big challenges.
24:01
And I thought, you know, I'm going to
24:02
jump on this bandwagon. I'm going to do
24:03
this a version of it. Not that I'm
24:05
coping out about, but that I know that I
24:08
can withstand and tolerate without
24:11
having that pendulum swing of like
24:13
perfection versus failure, which I too
24:15
struggle with. And so I noticed myself.
24:18
So we went to Disneyland this past week.
24:20
>> Mhm.
24:20
>> And I just really love to have like a
24:22
margarita or you
24:23
>> FaceTimed me after you had that
24:26
>> and go on that fun upside down ride.
24:28
Like it's so fun to me and I'm just
24:30
like, you know what? I haven't had a
24:31
drink since March 7th.
24:33
>> I'm gonna have a a Disneyland drink and
24:36
I'm not gonna beat myself up over it.
24:38
We're literally gonna walk at least
24:40
10,000 steps today with that, you know,
24:43
and I didn't get all the churros. I
24:45
didn't get all of that, which I usually
24:46
would do. So, I was like, that's not
24:48
>> this isn't catastrophic. And I didn't
24:50
have a lot of shame around it. I was
24:51
like, I'm okay with that. And, you know,
24:54
and then yesterday I had a beer on this
24:56
like two-mile walk. I was like, I'm
24:58
going to have this cold beer. It was a
24:59
really hot day. It sounded really good.
25:01
It wasn't like I was
25:02
>> avoiding or chasing. There was no like
25:04
underlying emotion around it. And I like
25:06
really enjoyed that beer. Interestingly,
25:08
I did not enjoy the drink I had at
25:10
Disneyland. I was like that wasn't good
25:12
and it wasn't worth it.
25:13
>> H interesting. And I just noticed myself
25:15
thinking about that. But, you know, I'm
25:17
not going to drink again until
25:19
>> like the the deadline that I had said
25:22
that I made for myself. And I think that
25:24
when you think about taking on these
25:26
hards, I think it's important to give
25:28
yourself some permission to be
25:30
imperfect.
25:31
>> Yeah.
25:31
>> And to be curious about limitation.
25:34
>> I also think it's important that we're
25:35
having like this nuance topic around
25:37
balance because I think the way that
25:39
we've been talking about food as the
25:42
biggest example and exercise could be a
25:44
little bit triggering for anybody who
25:46
struggles with disordered eating of that
25:48
it has to be all one way or it's wrong
25:50
or just have strict rules around it. So
25:53
knowing that it's even though we're
25:54
talking about that as a big example that
25:56
we've both been struggling with of that
25:58
>> it is more about balance and just
26:00
acknowledging that you know that eating
26:02
can be a really sensitive topic
26:04
especially for women and I think that
26:06
we've we see that in our practice all
26:07
the time we deal with this
26:09
>> the societal kind of issues and
26:12
pressures around body image
26:13
>> things that are definitely harder for
26:14
women than men. I mean I think most
26:16
people would not disagree with that for
26:18
sure.
26:18
>> Yeah. Well, and like let's talk again
26:21
about the hard conversation things
26:22
because I think a lot of our listeners
26:24
are pretty high functioning
26:26
>> go along get along, you know, they live
26:28
in they live they're very neck up and
26:30
then where people fall short they just
26:31
pick up the pieces themselves rather
26:33
than have the hard conversations about
26:35
things and and so let's talk about like
26:38
how do you think avoiding hard
26:40
conversations maybe even primarily in
26:42
the work setting, not so much in the
26:43
personal life setting create long-term
26:45
dysfunction? Like what what thoughts do
26:47
you have on that? because I think that's
26:48
a lot of our listeners.
26:50
>> The biggest word that comes to mind is
26:51
resentment.
26:52
>> You know, uh, conflict deferred is
26:54
resentment incurred.
26:55
>> 100%. Oh, I love that. Say that again.
26:57
>> Conflict deferred is resentment
26:59
incurred. And so, the more that you kind
27:02
of sweep something under the rug, ignore
27:04
it, say it's fine, kind of step into
27:06
this place of false pacivity of like
27:09
being passive around what actually
27:11
bothers you,
27:12
>> right? you are just storing up and
27:15
building resentment in yourself that's
27:17
gonna show up eventually or towards the
27:20
other person or just kind of bubble up
27:21
within yourself.
27:22
>> And what do you think happens to those
27:23
people that don't say no ever
27:25
>> professionally especially?
27:26
>> Well, burnout uh I think burnout being
27:29
the biggest one.
27:30
>> Yeah. Or you're taking on so much that
27:33
doesn't feel uh sustainable and it's
27:36
either burnout or it's what we kind of
27:38
talked about before. It's turning to
27:39
substances to make it all feel like it's
27:42
worth it at the end of the day to feel
27:43
like you can regain a semblance of
27:45
capacity even though it's not real.
27:47
>> What do you think a little What do you
27:48
think about like being needed being a
27:51
little bit of a trap? Because I think
27:53
that's where I used to fall. I'm like,
27:54
"Oh, I'm so very important. Everybody
27:56
needs me."
27:56
>> Yeah.
27:56
>> And then I'm mad like I did this all to
27:58
myself.
27:59
>> Well, there's some social reinforcement
28:01
around that too. I think on both sides,
28:03
for women, it's kind of kind of going
28:06
into the the stereotype of being the
28:08
nurturer, the caregiver, the one who
28:10
takes on things for other people. And
28:12
then I think with men, it's the I can do
28:14
it all
28:15
>> that gets really socially reinforced and
28:18
personally reinforced that it feels
28:19
good.
28:20
>> Uh and then at some point it stops,
28:23
>> right?
28:23
>> And you're upset that no one is helping
28:25
you,
28:26
>> but you've never voiced, I could use
28:28
some help or this is hard.
28:29
>> Sure. Or or maybe you're so controlling
28:31
that when people help it's never good
28:33
enough.
28:34
>> I've had to face I've had to deal with
28:35
that, too.
28:36
>> You know, I'll do it myself.
28:37
>> I'm cooking and I've asked my husband
28:39
for help and he's slicing the onions and
28:41
I'm looking over his shoulder. He's
28:42
like, you know, if you want my help,
28:44
you're just going to have to accept the
28:45
way that I cut onions, right?
28:46
>> I'm like, you're so right.
28:48
>> Yeah. My husband's phenomenal. But he
28:51
I'm like, I was able to hear that. And
28:54
maybe he'd said versions of that before
28:56
that I wasn't able to hear, but in that
28:57
moment, I could. Yeah.
28:58
>> Like, no, you're right.
29:00
>> Yeah.
29:00
>> I can't micromanage the help that I
29:02
receive.
29:03
>> Right. And you have to accept that as,
29:05
you know, but I didn't have to cut the
29:06
onions.
29:07
>> And I think that can be that concept can
29:10
be really
29:11
>> transferred to so many things. You know,
29:14
it may not be my way or it may not be
29:15
the way I did it, but one,
29:18
>> I didn't have to do it. And so, I got
29:20
something off my plate. I was brave
29:21
enough to ask. But the other thing is,
29:24
who do I think I am that only my way is
29:26
right?
29:26
>> There's that,
29:27
>> right? like you're not the only onion
29:29
expert, you know, other people might
29:31
have a great idea. And I think that
29:32
brings us to the point of like needing
29:34
to be open and curious about
29:36
>> yeah,
29:36
>> our need for controlling when it comes
29:38
to that.
29:39
>> Yeah. Becoming trying to become less
29:41
rigid,
29:42
>> right?
29:42
>> Accepting that even if it's even if your
29:44
way is the best way,
29:46
>> right?
29:46
>> Can you handle someone else's? Is it
29:48
that big of a deal?
29:49
>> But why do I mean work work or personal
29:52
relationships? Why do you think it feels
29:54
safer to be silent? Like what do you
29:57
think? Let's dig into that for a little
29:58
bit. Why do you think not speaking up
30:01
feels like protection or safety?
30:04
>> I think there's a whole host of reasons
30:05
that can come from people's lived
30:08
experiences from childhood around what
30:10
it what happens when somebody is
30:12
potentially upset with you,
30:13
>> right? What does that mean? If they're
30:15
upset with me, then
30:16
>> Yeah. If they're upset with me, is that
30:18
going to mean screaming? Is that going
30:21
to mean I'm shamed? Is that going to
30:23
mean that I feel really unsafe? Uh, does
30:26
that mean more on my plate because this
30:28
person becomes upset and then, you know,
30:31
checks out and and leaves? Does that
30:33
mean I'm alone? I think there's a whole
30:35
>> Can I tolerate the alone thing and how
30:37
do they deal with the with the um
30:39
conflict?
30:40
>> How do they show up or not?
30:42
>> It can be scary if you don't have the
30:44
skills for that. So, I think that that's
30:46
a that's a big one. I I did do a series
30:49
of shows related to this um the four
30:52
horsemen of the apocalypse. So, that's a
30:54
good one to check out if that if this is
30:56
resonating with you and you're like,
30:58
"Yeah, I avoid these hard conversations
31:00
in relationships because of my fear of
31:02
how how it will go or whatever. So, I
31:04
sweep it under the rug and then I have
31:06
this pile under my rug that I can no
31:08
longer avoid."
31:09
>> Or it's just I can't tolerate this other
31:11
person being upset and maybe not at me,
31:14
but just upset in general, right?
31:16
>> I don't want this other person to feel
31:18
sad. I don't want them to feel uh shame
31:21
about themselves. I'm going to protect
31:23
their emotions at the sake of my own,
31:26
>> right? And and over responsibility with
31:29
people's okayness always comes into play
31:31
with that. like not being able to
31:33
tolerate someone else not being okay is
31:35
really our own inability to tolerate
31:38
>> the the distress in others around us and
31:40
likely related to the history of our
31:42
childhood where there was disregular
31:45
>> or disregulated caregivers or unstable
31:49
or chaotic home environments and those
31:51
then teach us
31:53
>> go along get along keep the peace at all
31:55
costs don't speak up because it'll just
31:57
be a problem and I don't want to be the
31:59
problem but it does throw us into that
32:02
absolutely
32:02
>> martyr stuck point for sure or victim
32:05
stuck point. And sometimes what comes up
32:07
kind of a misconception or a a a place
32:10
where people don't know where to go when
32:11
we talk about that okayess of the other
32:14
person right is that they think well how
32:18
much where how do I draw the line
32:19
between what's compassionate and caring
32:21
versus what's over functioning right
32:23
>> so I like to think of we all have kind
32:24
of our own little hula hoop of
32:26
experience that we are in it's our
32:28
emotions it's our experience it's our
32:29
perspective and we want to be and we
32:32
want to be right next to somebody else's
32:33
hula hoop that we care out. We're right
32:36
touching it.
32:36
>> We're not overlapping.
32:38
>> When we start to overlap
32:40
>> and their emotions bleed into ours is
32:43
when it becomes a problem,
32:44
>> right? It's more imshed. It's more
32:46
>> But that doesn't mean that we can't be
32:48
incredibly compassionate and caring for
32:50
somebody else who's having a hard time.
32:52
We just don't take it on.
32:53
>> Right? That's called detached
32:54
compassion, by the way. And that's
32:56
probably I should do a whole episode on
32:58
detached compassion because I think it's
32:59
a struggle. people don't know how to do
33:02
that,
33:03
>> you know, which is like true empathy.
33:05
>> Yeah.
33:06
>> And the pendulum often swings when
33:08
somebody's working on kind of
33:09
codependency of of taking on someone
33:12
else's emotions is it swings to the
33:13
other end and they can become very
33:16
disconnected, right,
33:17
>> from others emotions in their life. And
33:20
so it's it's helpful to try to help them
33:21
find some middle ground.
33:23
>> Yeah. Well, I really appreciate you
33:25
talking with me about this. And I I
33:28
think we need to do a follow-up show on
33:30
like what do we do about this? Because I
33:31
think that's an episode in Olive in
33:33
itself. So So can I count on you to join
33:35
me for a follow on this one? Good.
33:37
Because I think that that is is
33:38
important because really when you think
33:40
about choosing the hard, there's all
33:43
there's a whole slew of reasons that are
33:45
often
33:46
>> embedded in the roots of our past and
33:48
our trauma and likely need additional
33:50
psycho education supports and maybe
33:53
therapy. And so choosing the hard may
33:56
not just be something you can white
33:58
knuckle and that you can, you know, move
34:00
forward with just willpower. Sometimes
34:02
we need to unearth, like you said
34:03
earlier, that the reason that it is so
34:06
hard to choose the
34:08
>> um long-term benefit of the hard that
34:11
requires a little bit more steadiness
34:12
and discipline over the short hard of
34:17
the potential impending doom as a result
34:19
of our choice of the hard today. and so
34:22
or avoiding the hard in our own minds.
34:24
But again, it's it's oftenimes built
34:26
around stories we make up about what it
34:28
is, like you said, overcoming shame and
34:31
perfectionism and all these other things
34:33
that really prohibit just consistent
34:36
choosing the long-term gain over the
34:39
short term. Yeah, I'd love to come back
34:41
and talk more about this because it's
34:42
it's a topic that bleeds into so many
34:44
areas of life and something that I think
34:46
we're all struggling with and working on
34:49
and doing our best to figure out how do
34:51
we choose
34:52
>> the best hard for us,
34:53
>> right?
34:54
>> And again, not so black and white.
34:56
>> Yeah.
34:57
>> Related to all that. So,
34:58
>> well, thank you so much for coming. I
35:00
appreciate it. I always love having
35:02
these chats with you on or off camera.
35:04
We we definitely vibe on these deep
35:06
conversations and I just love her
35:09
>> uh brightness, her intellect and um
35:11
compassion really. You you have all of
35:13
those things going for you both
35:15
personally and professionally. So I feel
35:16
honored to be in your circle
35:18
>> um next to your hula hoop.
35:21
>> But um thank you everybody for tuning in
35:23
today. I know that life does present us
35:26
with so many challenges and every day we
35:28
have to deal with that internal
35:30
conflict. And so for being here and for
35:33
exploring this in yourself, I I commend
35:35
you and I thank you for for committing.
35:38
And so we will do a follow-up episode on
35:40
this. So stay tuned for that. And until
35:42
we meet again, don't forget to lead with
35:44
love. It'll never steer you wrong.
#People & Society