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Professor Scott Lucas joins Paul Brand to analyse Trump's claims about China's interference in the 2020 election. In a 25-minute address, Trump attempted to make election security a central political issue ahead of November's midterm elections, when Republicans will be defending their congressional majorities and face the possibility of losing control of one or both chambers. Paul and Professor Lucas also react as Trump threatens further tariffs on Canada over the impact of wildfires on Americans. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #paulbrand #donaldtrump #trump #election #china #canada #wildfire #markcarney #uspolitics #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Can we talk first, there's lots to get through this morning
0:02
but let's talk a bit about Andy Burnham, if you don't mind, because obviously that is going to be the big story on Monday
0:09
And lots of people focusing on his domestic policy, Andy Burnham, but there will also be this question of how he relates to Donald Trump
0:16
which was a defining challenge of Keir Starmer's premiership. Starmer managed to sort of just about bring Donald Trump around a bit
0:24
although he didn't end up stopping the criticisms that were coming from Washington
0:28
we have heard some quite harsh words about Andy Burnham from Washington
0:32
How do you think the two administrations might deal with one another
0:37
Well, I think at the personal level, Paul, it's going to be fairly straightforward
0:42
And that is Burnham's a fairly shrewd politician. He actually did a podcast this week where he talked about the fact he's going to meet Trump on his turf
0:51
In other words, he's not going to go in and lecture Trump, try to do him down
0:54
But at the same time, Burnham's not going to bow down to Trump. is what he's generally saying. You know, that's sort of general statements. We don't know what
1:02
it will be like till they meet. But I think, to be honest with you, Burnham's priority is going to
1:07
be settling in on domestic issues. I don't think he's going to go on and on the front foot and
1:12
raise tariffs or raise questions of NATO. I don't see the issue there. I think the issue is actually
1:18
from others in the Trump administration. And I think we need to be honest here. There's a dedicated
1:23
campaign from others in the Trump administration, like J.D. Vance, to undermine the UK government
1:29
That's been going on since the start of this administration. Elon Musk was part of it back
1:33
in January 25. And that campaign to undermine the UK government, not from Trump directly
1:39
but from Vance and from his allies throughout the administration, including the Assistant
1:43
Secretary of State for Public Diplomacy of all places. I think that's the more serious thing to
1:48
keep an eye on. Yeah and on that note you know I'm fascinated by the way that J.D. Vance in
1:54
particular kind of perceives the United Kingdom. He seemed there's a really interesting interview
1:58
with him recently where he seems to have this sort of sense of responsibility over the direction of
2:02
the United Kingdom this kind of like reverse imperialism sort of vibe where because we're
2:08
the old colonial power that he feels that he's sort of heavily invested in the direction we take
2:13
as a country because we're supposed to have these shared values historically with the United States
2:17
And the Trump administration has just granted $12 million to groups founded by UK Conservatives Jacob Rees-Mogg and Toby Young, which is another sign, isn't it, of this kind of investment in the direction of our politics coming from Washington
2:35
Yeah, it's part, Paul, of not just the UK, but also Europe
2:39
So let's be, first of all, from Vance's perspective and his allies
2:43
in the December 2025 National Security Strategy they came out and said what they doing which is they are trying to support they call them European movements But what they talking about is hard right movements in some cases white nationalist
2:57
movements, to take over in European countries. And they're talking about undermining the European Union because they claim Europe is
3:03
in civilizational decline. And the UK is part of that. Now, what do they mean by the European movements they support
3:10
That would be like the AFD in Germany. It would be like the national rally in France
3:14
Let's be honest, it's the Reform Party here in the UK. And that extends to other activist groups
3:21
So what the State Department has done without any competition, which is what it's supposed
3:26
to do, is it's allocated $12 million to what's called the 878
3:32
And this is Jacob Rees-Mogg's activist outfit. They only started earlier this year
3:37
But it's supposed to defend ancient cultures and oppose mass immigration. Read that as you will in terms of that
3:44
But that's a platform, an activist platform. Toby Young's Free Speech Union International, which is not as much about free speech, but about advancing certain causes
3:53
I would argue right-wing causes. That's been supported for quite some time by the Trump folks
3:58
Now they're pouring money into it. Now, what is doubly interesting about this is the U.S., the Trump administration, has scrapped the U.S. Agency for International Development
4:08
It's cut back on the National Endowment for Democracy. So the traditional US efforts to promote values and promote democracy have been cut back
4:16
What they're doing is this dedicated political mission. And in the UK, it means movements that are opposed to the Labour government
4:25
That's who they're going to be backing. And is that a new thing in US-UK relations for a US administration to invest in rival political platforms to the sitting UK government
4:40
Because we do see, you know, for example, when Kamala Harris was running against Trump, we saw Labour MPs go over and campaign for Kamala
4:49
And ditto, you know, Bill Clinton and Obama, I remember loads and loads of Labour figures going over for Obama
4:55
So it's not unusual for politicians and administrations to be sort of hoping and hedging their bets that there might be a different shape of administration later down the line
5:08
But do you think this is more aggressive investment than we've seen before in particular opponents
5:14
I mean, it's one thing for party activists or party members to volunteer to work for another campaign, which is what's happened in the past
5:21
It's another for a government to specifically interfere in the politics of another country
5:27
I old enough to remember the uproar when Barack Obama said in 2016 that if Brexit was adopted the UK would go to the back of the trade queue Yeah the line not the queue Yeah the back of the queue Which was fun for us No no it was fun for us at the time because it the classic queue versus line
5:46
Sorry. So I'm caught between my line and queue, but what's happening is that what's quite clearly
5:53
is that this idea of the US government staying out of the UK government's business and so on
5:59
that's gone now, that's shattered. And again, I've got to be honest with you. Let's be point blank. Nigel Farage worked for Donald Trump in 2016. He worked in the Trump campaign. The Trump folks have very much been involved with reform as it has developed. So the U.S. government now is doing what had been developing for years
6:18
But as I say, it crosses a line now because at the end of the day, I have no problems with Jacob Rees-Mogg's having an activist view or Toby Young having activist views
6:30
But for the U.S. to put its thumb on the scale and to do so by misleadingly saying it's in the name of free speech, which it's not
6:40
Let's just at least be honest about what's happening here. This is that the Trump folks want people like them to be in power over here
6:48
OK, well, look, talking of meddling in other countries, this extraordinary accusation from Trump that China meddled in the 2020 election
6:57
really stood out in the past couple of days, particularly because this has been investigated before
7:04
and it's been concluded that there wasn't any evidence of Chinese meddling
7:08
So we know that China does meddle around the world, ditto Russia
7:13
but just felt like this came out of the blue the other day with Trump
7:17
making this accusation about China? Yeah. So first the facts, and then why did Trump say it
7:24
The facts here are is that in 2020, US intelligence agencies, so these would be several agencies
7:30
had a joint assessment that said China had considered but rejected influence operations in the 2020 election
7:38
They felt it would destabilize US-China relations. The country that was interfering
7:43
in those elections in 2020, as it had done in 2016, was Russia. And they were doing so, again, on behalf of Trump by spreading disinformation about
7:53
Joe Biden. Furthermore, one of the documents that the Trump folks released, because they didn't
7:58
check carefully after Trump's speech, is a National Intelligence Council assessment, which says that
8:06
Putin was working with proxies to spread this disinformation against Biden. The proxies they
8:11
name are associated with Trump's lawyer Rudy Giuliani and Trump's former campaign manager
8:17
Paul Manafort So the real story is Russia interfering for Trump Now why does Trump let say he was incorrect Let be polite about it Why does he put out this incorrect statement Because it to set up the pretext for possible manipulation
8:31
of the 2026 congressional elections. You can try to curb mail-in balloting. You can try to
8:38
restrict other voting by saying there's foreign influence going around. But even more importantly
8:43
if the vote goes against Trump and the Republicans, they can seek to overturn it
8:47
Mm hmm. In 2020, after Trump lost that election, there was a draft executive order that was being considered by the White House to seize voting machines
8:58
Now, at the end of the day, the White House counsel and the Justice Department held out against it
9:04
In 2026, they are preparing to seize those voting machines if they don't like what happens
9:10
Why do I tell you that? Because they did a test run of this a few months ago in Georgia, where the director of national intelligence observed a raid on voting machines
9:19
So it's not what Trump said. It's setting up the pretext for what might be done
9:26
I'm not saying they will do this. I'm not saying there will definitely be manipulation or an effort to overturn the election
9:31
But there is a red light blinking. And that's why that speech was made. Fascinating. And just lastly, I think we can squeeze this one in as well, Scott
9:40
apparently it's Canada's fault that the world is on fire at the moment with wildfires
9:45
We've got them in Europe as well, raging at the moment. He's now threatened Canada with tariffs because of the wildfire smoke that's blowing into the US
9:54
He said, what did he call it, something like filthy, polluted and unhealthy air
9:59
fuming about these wildfires in Canada. He can't seriously be thinking about imposing tariffs over some wildfires, can he
10:07
sure he can because because he loves not only yeah because trump is trump trump likes the
10:14
and because of those officials we talked about earlier there's a wider game in play here first
10:18
off you want to talk about wildfires i'm i can remember a few serious wildfires in california
10:23
a while back yeah quite so this isn't just a canadian thing and i think the fact here is is
10:31
that uh you could actually talk about the sources of the wildfires the canadian prime minister mark
10:35
Carney talked about climate change, but the Trump folks don't want to blame it on climate change
10:40
What they're doing here is two things. They're trying to put pressure on Canada economically because they want to, again, revise the terms of the U.S.-Mexico-Canada Economic Agreement
10:51
Secondly, and I think seriously, they're trying to support a separatist movement in Alberta
10:56
This started a few years ago with the trucker strikes. There is a referendum about a referendum in Alberta about whether they want to leave Canada
11:04
Now, I don't think they will. But Trump is the guy who seriously says Canada should be the 51st state of the U.S
11:12
And this is the latest to try to push that line
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