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This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 27th of April 2026. 00:00 – What is the point of the King’s trip? 51:09 - Healthy life expectancy falls across the UK, except in London. Why? 01:27:58 – U.S. Roundup – Simon Marks, LBC’s Washington Correspondent 01:40:44 - Police close Epsom rape investigation following violence by protesters - What is releasing ethnic details of suspects designed to achieve? LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
It is three minutes after ten and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
0:07
I hope you had a splendid weekend and took full advantage of the weather if you're listening in most parts of the UK
0:14
It was absolutely glorious, wasn't it? Nothing glorious about events in Washington DC, however, over the course of yesterday
0:22
I mean a very stark reminder in some ways that though so many elements of the administration are profoundly abnormal
0:32
you have to and we've wrestled with this so much together or at least I've wrestled with it and you've sort of watched and laughed
0:39
you have to treat it normally when something happens to the President of the United States
0:47
it gets treated regardless of who is the incumbent And quite rightly, this is the thing you struggle with
0:54
And that is why the level of coverage is extraordinary on both sides of the Atlantic
0:58
Perhaps a little bit more surprising on this side. But don't be surprised by it because not only is it huge, potentially, albeit nobody happily was badly hurt
1:09
I think a Secret Service agent was shot at, but his bulletproof vested what it was designed to do
1:15
And the shooter, of course, got nowhere near the room where it happens
1:20
but it is obviously a very big deal, whoever the president is
1:24
even when it's a president who celebrates the death of great American public servants
1:30
like Robert Mueller, who literally announces how delighted he is when somebody dies
1:37
You don't change your moral code according to the identity of things to whom bad things are happening
1:43
Otherwise, of course, you become as bad as them. I was surprised to discover
1:52
while I was reading into the events of yesterday or sort of Saturday night, our time, isn't it
1:59
I was surprised to discover how far and how deep the belief that the last assassination attempt on Donald Trump
2:06
was a fake, had travelled, including among his own base among people that were very, very, very much on board
2:13
and pro-Trump for the second term, the second presidential campaign. Well, I suppose the third presidential campaign, technically
2:20
but the second one that he won. That struck me as bitterly ironic that they have created an ecosystem
2:26
in which the truth has been completely denuded and conspiracy theories have been afforded
2:31
Ludicrous levels of plausibility, and now, of course, they've become, if you like
2:36
hoist by their own conspiracy theory petards. people who I would have possibly argued should know better
2:43
or would once have known better buying into conspiracy theories this weekend
2:48
about false flags and staged events and the extraordinary coincidence. The Washington Post reports that the security detail
2:55
was not on the highest alert that it could have been. Some people see two plus two
3:00
and conclude that the result must be seven. But it's their own fault
3:04
They've created this world in which the truth has been completely denuded
3:07
and conspiracy theories have been treated as if they were the truth
3:11
And I suppose I shouldn't have been that surprised to discover that it now, of course, extends even into events
3:17
at which they are at the heart. It's worth looking into if you're interested in such things
3:24
but I don't think it would be appropriate to talk about that today. For a start, I mean, like we always do with conspiracy theories
3:30
we worry that by even discussing them, mocking them, laughing at them
3:33
pointing them out, you give some sort of oxygen to them which prolongs their life and perhaps inflates their significance
3:42
And the other reason why this event garners so much attention on this side of the Atlantic
3:49
is because the king of these islands is due to arrive in Washington, D.C. today
3:56
He is going today for this state visit, a state visit that I think is probably ill-advised
4:04
but which changes its complexion completely in the wake of these events
4:14
Because now you sort of think, well, he has to go. You can't let fear or concern about the actions
4:23
of dangerous or crazy people change the behaviour of the main players
4:31
of the main protagonists. You can't live in fear, albeit that Donald Trump has used this opportunity to start punting for his weird ballroom almost before the dust had settled on the events
4:43
The army of online supporters was turning it into a supposed proof that he really needs his hideous ballroom
4:50
I don't quite understand that, but there's lots of things I don't quite understand. We'll focus today on things that I do understand
4:56
Buckingham Palace said in a statement that after much discussion, the king's visit to Washington would go ahead as planned
5:02
I don't think that this element of the conversation changes. I don't think the phone-in we had about whether or not the king should go
5:13
changes at all as a consequence. I don't think there's another interesting phone-in to be had
5:18
I could be wrong, and in a way, you're welcome to prove to me by making a fascinating and interesting call
5:23
in answer to the question of whether or not these events should have changed the plan
5:28
But I don't know that the events of this weekend, albeit that they raise questions about the security of top officials in Donald Trump's regime
5:38
I don't know that the question we have asked each other recently about the wisdom of this trip changes
5:47
because it was a diplomatic wisdom we were looking at. It was the question of whether or not normalising or treating with respect or essentially, you know, facilitating a president who is so profoundly opposed, not only to our interests, but to the interests of peace, freedom, the West, whatever you want to call it, whether or not exposing the king to that sort of activity would be unseemly or inappropriate
6:15
and I haven't really changed my answer to that question either, which is I can't really see how, well, that's what we're going to do today
6:24
The king is going to visit Donald Trump, a man whose depravities are legion
6:30
That isn't an opinion, that is counting. A man who remains at the heart of all manner of suspicions
6:37
and allegations contained within the Epstein files, which, of course, he promised to release and still hasn't
6:43
he is a character who thinks nothing of insulting allies and praising enemies
6:50
he's never done anything that would disappoint Vladimir Putin and he's hardly ever done anything that would delight allies
6:56
up to and including at the end of last week lest you forget I mean once again treading on territory that would once have been unthinkable
7:05
the Falkland Islands another theatre in which British service personnel gave their lives for Queen and
7:13
country and another event in our history that Donald Trump has sought to
7:18
denigrate insult and malign I don't know that he's done anything that's made me
7:22
angrier than the insult to the Afghan mission when when he said we hadn done anything or we stayed away from the front line And you thought of the hundreds of British servicemen and women who died in that
7:36
activity as a direct result of answering the USA's call for help and to insult them in their
7:46
memory of all the things he's done that we know for a fact that he's done. There's things that
7:50
are not still in the realms of suspicion or allegation, but of all the things we have witnessed him do
7:56
that remains for me one of the foulest. And he has essentially, or his regime has essentially
8:01
done exactly the same thing in the context of the Falkland Islands
8:07
or his administration has done exactly the same thing in the context of the Falkland Islands in the last 72 hours
8:13
It's extraordinary, isn't it, to think of how utterly defining insults like that would have been for any other president
8:21
So, it's interesting. I said people who I thought would know better
8:28
or people who would once have known better were buying into the conspiracy theories
8:32
but there's a few in the inbox today. I don't know that it is necessarily idiots corner territory
8:37
but stay tuned to find out. So, he is going. Trump is Trump
8:43
The king is visiting. and I think we can allow ourselves, on a Monday morning
8:49
we can allow ourselves a slightly speculative morning. So there are serious and borderline silly answers
8:59
to the questions that I'm about to ask you. I don't particularly enjoy when we go too silly
9:04
I know what you're thinking, pot kettle. But it has to be at least vaguely feasible
9:08
I don't think, you know, the king's going to turn up and reveal that he was the character
9:12
running the London Marathon dressed as Peppa Pig. I think you can go too silly sometimes
9:17
But when we talked about the wisdom of the visit in general
9:23
I found myself thinking that the king doesn't want to go particularly
9:29
He would have been quite happy for this to have been postponed or cancelled. But he is both the head of and an employee of the state
9:38
He has to do what the prime minister tells him to do. My reading of it, particularly when the Dimbleby was activated
9:44
and I don't believe that either Dimbleby brother would have expressed misgivings about this trip
9:48
without permission from their friend, the king, or certainly a friend of Jonathan's
9:52
perhaps more accurately described as a trusted source or a confidant of David's
9:58
But I don't think either Dimbleby brother would have broken cover and expressed misgivings about this trip
10:02
without sanction from above, which suggested to me that the king himself was not mad keen to go on the trip
10:11
I can't imagine the queen has been counting down the days either, but it is going ahead
10:16
and it struck me that the worst that could happen is embarrassment for the king or queen or both
10:22
and that that actually wouldn't be a net negative for the prime minister
10:26
so even if Donald Trump insults the prime minister that makes Donald Trump
10:32
look bad and it puts King Charles in a tricky position for which presumably royalists
10:38
or people whose patriotism extends to the royal family would be outraged on their behalf
10:47
How dare you insult the king's prime minister in front of the king
10:51
Similarly, if there's some sort of diplomatic debacle akin to Donald Trump making jokes about Pearl Harbor
10:56
in the presence of the prime minister, then people, and there are still a few, I think
11:01
they're mostly confined to the lunatic fringe of the Daily Telegraph now
11:05
but there are still a few people in this country who would pick Donald Trump over their own prime minister
11:11
Dick Littlejohn at the Daily Mail, of course, boasts about his preferences in that department
11:16
There are still a few people in that category. So if you then see the President of the United States of America insulting our king
11:23
or embarrassing our king, or humiliating our king, then in a logical universe, and I grant that we don't necessarily inhabit one
11:30
in a logical universe, that should actually offer succour or support to the idea that Keir Starmer
11:37
in the context of transatlantic relations, is a man more sinned against than sinning. You kind of have to pick a side
11:42
And if you're currently on Donald Trump's side and he insults our king, you probably need to nudge a little bit towards Keir Starmer's side
11:50
So a diplomatic disaster or a diplomatic embarrassment, I think, you know, the king gets knocked down, he gets up again
11:58
He moves on. The reportage is tomorrow's fish and chip paper. And the idea that Trump is somebody whose disdain for our prime minister
12:08
particularly in the context of refusing to join his illegal war in Iran
12:12
is something that should be admired. Do you see what I mean
12:16
But then you remember who you're dealing with. You remember that you are dealing with somebody
12:21
about whom we have said on many occasions almost anything is possible and believable
12:26
up to and including, it would seem, beliefs that the shooting on Saturday night
12:31
was a direct and planned response to Trump's plummeting popularity ratings and the ongoing disaster in Iran
12:38
A surprising number of you subscribing to that. Thank you for not being cross with me
12:42
for poo-pooing it at this stage. Maybe it'll be one of those things that I have to resile from
12:47
and undertake my own reverse ferret at some dim and distant point in the future. But I honestly think it's highly unlikely
12:53
profoundly unlikely, to the point of almost being impossible. The only caveat being
12:57
that you can't sit here every morning and say, with Trump, there is no depth
13:01
to which he would not go. There is no depth he would not plumb
13:04
so if you've got that on the table then you can't actually dismiss with full certainty
13:09
any allegation or accusation of wrongdoing but I'm dismissing this one with as close to full certainty as I can go
13:15
what I do not know is this what's the best thing that can happen? 0345 6060973
13:22
how feasible is it that an entirely unreliable character like Trump that we could witness anything meaningful
13:32
because even if it's all, you know, bread and roses, it's all sweetness and light in the meetings
13:42
it could, 24 hours later, be completely exploded and undone by events
13:48
by the next big outburst. You know, this talk, as someone who has British interests
13:55
like the Prime Minister, the very forefront of my mind and my desires
13:58
I can't quite buy into this idea that it's going to be some sort of rehabilitation
14:05
relationship rehabilitation that they're going to restore goodwill between the UK and the USA
14:12
I'd like to be wrong I'd like to believe that it could but you're dealing with a man
14:16
who will say two completely contradictory things in the same paragraph or in the same social media post
14:22
so what exactly would a positive outcome look like What is the best that could happen
14:30
0345 60 973. And then I guess this is where the line between serious and silly
14:38
becomes a little harder to navigate. What's the worst that could happen
14:43
Within the realms of diplomacy, I don't think it would be appropriate, particularly after the event of this weekend
14:48
to move into areas of violence or terrorism. But in terms of the relationship and the meetings
14:54
between the President of the United States of America and the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom or I beg your pardon the King of the United Kingdom
15:05
what is, from our point of view, the very best that could happen on this trip
15:10
What would look like a glorious and resounding success? And what is the worst
15:17
What would be the thing that you fear, now that you've given it a moment's thought
15:22
the thing that could happen that would be absolutely excruciating. Not that I don't believe for very long
15:31
but nonetheless, absolutely excruciating. 0345 60 60 973. It's a four-day visit
15:39
It will be over before Mystery Hour is completed, pretty much, on Thursday
15:44
But for the duration of those four days, the eyes of the world, or certainly this corner of the world
15:48
are going to be focused laser-like upon the trip. And one of the things, one of the only things you can say with certainty
15:53
is that pretty much anything could happen. Take a little minute out of your morning
15:58
and tell me the best thing, 0345-6060973, and potentially the worst thing
16:04
or just steps on those paths. It doesn't have to be the hands-down, stone-cold
16:08
most disastrous event. Things that you think, significant things that you think could happen
16:13
whether positive or negative. 90 minutes after 10 is the time, and I think we will include
16:20
sort of Hugh Grant moments from Love Actually, but we have to have a fairly clear idea of what that would look like and sound like
16:26
and how diplomatically plausible it might be. Okay? 0345 6060 973. James O'Brien on LBC
16:37
It's, you know, proof positive, isn't it, of the thing I say to you on a fairly regular basis now
16:42
that we don't have the tools properly to yse the situations that we repeatedly find ourselves in
16:48
as a consequence of Donald Trump being President of the United States of America. You don't know how you should report upon the antics or the activities of, for example, a self-confessed sex offender or a multiple felon
17:02
But you have to. You have to work your way through it. So if this Falkland story was resurrected in the context of an Oval Office meeting between the king and the president, then what would that involve
17:13
How disastrous would that be? What would the repercussions... should the king bring it up
17:18
Should the king actually use this opportunity to step a little further outside
17:22
the parameters of decorum and diplomacy to put forward the British interest
17:29
If the king is going to represent the national interest, what should he do
17:33
What would be a good outcome? What would be a positive? I like this from Ian
17:38
The best thing is that nothing happens. The worst thing is that nothing changes. Something's going to happen
17:43
something is almost certainly going to be newsworthy and even if it isn't of course we'll all have to pretend that it is
17:51
but given that the path if you like the landscape is completely clear
17:59
and completely empty that the idea of the things that would be significant
18:04
or the things that would be notable, momentous I just find it currently fascinating
18:12
And I want to know what you think. James is in Gloucester. James, what would you like to say
18:17
Hi, James. Thank you for having me on yet again. You're very welcome. What do you mean yet again
18:22
How many times have you been on? This is my third time now. Well, there you go
18:25
That's pretty good. Third time lucky. Come on, then. Yeah, I just wanted to say that I think
18:31
one of the most detrimental things that could happen, in my view
18:36
is for Trump to mention anything about the Falklands. because I think his criticism of Keir Starmer
18:44
and, you know, the job that Keir Starmer is doing is bad enough anyway
18:49
He should stay out of that. Before we get on to the Falkners, how bad is it if he does
18:53
Because, you know, imagine, just imagine for a minute, George Bush or Barack Obama
18:58
or Ronald Reagan meeting the Queen and insulting the current Prime Minister
19:06
whoever it was, whether it was Tony Blair or Margaret Thatcher. I mean, it's utterly unthinkable
19:11
We're kind of acting as if that's probably going to happen, but hey-ho, on we go with this guy
19:17
Yeah, sadly, I think it is likely to happen. I mean, you know, if a year has gone by, that would be unthinkable
19:24
But we're not living in that world anymore. We're not in Kansas anymore, James
19:29
This is completely the Zanjada territory. So we put that up as a sort of known, known
19:34
insulting Keir Starmer in front of the King. Your prime minister is not a good guy
19:38
or he should have done this or he should have. I mean, crikey, the distance from Kansas
19:45
the distance that we've fallen as a sort of relationship is extraordinary
19:49
But what would the Falklands do? How would that resonate? I just think it's a direct attack on British sovereignty
19:57
I think demonstrably the US has sort of, well, it's sort of positioning itself to be the regional hegemon of the Western Hemisphere
20:10
And I think that, you know, this punishment... It's not really anymore, is it
20:15
Well, no, but I think it's sort of, I think it's trying to be
20:19
And obviously, you know, the Falklands being in that area of the world, I think it's a way to really sort of, you know, for Trump to stick his claws in
20:29
And speaking of matters military, should the king himself bring anything up
20:33
should the king bring up the so-called ceasefire in the Middle East, left 14 more Lebanese people dead at the hands of the Israeli army this weekend
20:41
Should the king say anything about that? Well, it's hard, isn't it
20:45
Because the royal family is supposed to sort of, like, err on the side of caution when it comes to politics and geopolitics
20:54
But I think it would be the right thing to do. I think everybody in the world needs to be putting pressure on Trump now to end this war
21:01
because it's going to be, the ramifications of it, going to be like we've never seen if it goes on for much longer
21:08
No, and of course it's going to start hitting our purses and our pockets ever harder
21:12
There's one warning this weekend, even if it all ended tomorrow, we'd be paying higher prices at the tills for the next nine months
21:17
which is going to affect some people a lot more than it is going to affect others
21:23
That I don't know. I mean, you sort of come away thinking Trump doesn't really seem to register any influence
21:29
or any input from anybody except the last person that he spoke to. And that can be undone, as we've established
21:34
by the next person that we spoke to. But just to go back to the Falklands thing
21:38
given what he said about Afghanistan, if he said something vile about the Falklands
21:44
we would just... Would it be different if he said it in the presence of the king
21:48
Do you see what I mean? Because the Afghanistan comments, I thought, they're up there with saying
21:53
insulting John McCain for being a prisoner of war, insulting Robert Mueller after he died
21:57
saying he was delighted that he died. insulting Robert Reiner after he was killed
22:02
it would appear, by his own son. If he did something in the presence of the king
22:08
does it change the timbre? Does it change the nature of the insult? Would we expect people that have given Donald Trump
22:14
the benefit of pretty much every doubt going to suddenly discover reserves of rage and disgust
22:20
because he did it in front of the king? I think so, yeah
22:25
And the reason I think that is because you know he already doing things that he said he never do You know he didn want to enter into new wars yet
22:35
He started this thing in Iran. He's threatened, you know, the sovereignty of Greenland
22:41
I just think that the US has become a bit of a predator state
22:46
That's a great way of putting it. Yeah, I think we need to listen to what he says, even though, you know, he's not coherent a lot of the time and he contradicts himself
22:54
But you need to take these things seriously because who knows what they're capable of
23:00
and what they'll do next. Yeah, but of course that's another argument for keeping him sweet or keeping a lid on things, isn't it
23:05
That unpredictability and that sort of snake-like temperament. Thank you, James. Coming up to 10.29
23:12
I guess it's going to be a fairly broad consensus on what is the best thing they're going to have
23:18
and answer nothing. Imagine if we didn't have a show on Wednesday. Tomorrow might be a little bit too soon
23:23
but by Wednesday morning, imagine if we haven't got an hour of our programme dedicated to discussing that thing what just happened
23:30
That would be a win, wouldn't it? From a diplomatic point of view, you're sitting around the table
23:34
and you are looking at the schedule, the agenda. There's been a few tweaks to it. There is concern about security
23:42
But you're in the inner circle. You are part of the retinue. And you are, what do they call it
23:48
You are forecasting. You are planning. and you are saying to each other
23:52
what is the best that we can hope for here? What is the absolute win? And you say, well, old boy
23:57
Because that, I believe, is how they talk in these circles. You say, well, old boy, I think the best that we can all hope for is absolutely nothing
24:04
There's that funny fellow on the radio who talks about swinging pendulai. I think the best that we can hope for
24:09
is an unswung pendulum on this trip, that everything is exactly the same when we leave
24:14
as it was when we arrived. In which case, we come back to the original question of
24:19
the point of the trip in the first place and whether or not it should be undertaken
24:23
So, in fact, let's add that to the list. What is the point of this trip
24:27
from anybody's point of view? Apart from massaging Donald Trump's ego, given his unreliability
24:33
and unpredictability, what is the point of this trip from the perspective of the British national interest
24:41
When it was arranged, we were still trying to cosy up to Donald Trump
24:45
Finally, Keir Starmer over Iran discovered the backbone that many believe he should have demonstrated a little earlier
24:51
and told Donald Trump where to stick his illegal war. So what on earth is..
24:57
What's in it for us? 0345 6060 973. David Dom is here now with your headlines
25:03
James O'Brien on LBC. It is 10.32. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
25:12
Yeah, Chris takes up the point I made a moment ago. The best thing that can happen, he writes
25:15
is that you are not on about it on this show in a few days. If we are, that means something's gone horribly wrong
25:20
and therefore you will be talking about it. It's like that, isn't it? That character in the fast show, the lifeguard
25:27
He's got 1984, nobody drowned. 1985, nobody drowned. 1986, 1987, one person drowned
25:34
As if he's trying to sort of minimise the awfulness of someone drowning while he was on duty
25:39
I can't do that. I can't really come on air on Wednesday and go, nothing's happened
25:43
Give me a ring now and talk about it. So people say to me sometimes
25:47
how do you handle the madness of the news that's been in place for about 10 years
25:53
I have a little saying. I say it's often very good for business and very bad for the soul
25:58
Donald Trump's a sort of patron saint of that catchphrase. Bad for business
26:02
Good for business, forgive me. Bad for the soul. Speaking of which, the foreign minister of Iran has just arrived in Russia
26:09
What do we do now? UK politics. Nigel Farage, of course, considers the president of Russia
26:15
to be the politician he admires most in the world. So whose side is he on in this war
26:20
The side of the politician he admires most in the world or the side of the bravest man he's ever met
26:27
which is, of course, Donald Trump. 10.34 is the time. A little reminder of how mad UK politics is
26:32
as the king makes his way to the White House. Gary is in Calais
26:36
Gary, what have you got? Morning, sir. I can't say the best thing I'd like to know to happen on the tour
26:41
but certainly I think what will happen is that Trump's going to run his mouth off at some point
26:47
You mean it's like night following day, right? Absolutely. And what you've got to remember
26:54
they're celebrating 250 years of victory over British troops. They're not because it's not to 1883
27:01
and there wasn't a guarantee of victory, etc. Bit niche, Gary, bit niche
27:06
Bit niche, but what he's going to do around in two and say, he's going to say something about beautiful American soldiers
27:13
defeating the British army. We did this. We did that. And what's Charles going to say in there
27:20
He'll fail to mention America had Spanish allies, Dutch allies, French army
27:27
that stopped the British getting through down to the West Indies. Lafayette! Exactly
27:32
America invaded Canada, got a bit of a good hiding. And he's going to turn around and say something
27:39
He's holding the memory of British soldiers. For people who don't know, Gary is a military historian of some repute
27:46
and the reason why he calls us from Calais is because he conducts guided tours of the battlefields and the cemeteries there
27:53
So it's a little unfair of me to say niche, because, of course, this is a celebration of the, outwardly
27:59
the 250th anniversary of US independence, and Donald Trump, he'll probably try to claim credit for the victory in some sense
28:08
I'm not even joking, Gary. He will probably try to, I don't know, say if it had been me
28:12
it would have been over much quicker or something like that. Yeah, I mean, what you've got to remember
28:17
and is he going to turn around and say how many American loyalists and the Tories, as they were known, were actually fighting for the British
28:23
Yes. Okay, is he going to turn around and mention the Germans
28:27
who were fighting for the British, the Hanoverians, who got out of hand on occasion
28:32
And, okay, so now this is where your enthusiasms possibly do colour your contributions
28:38
And this is not likely to cause levels of upset akin to him insulting our Afghan dead, is it
28:45
I mean, it's... It's going to lead on, isn't it? Well, it probably is. He's going to say the British army, he's going to turn around and..
28:50
There's no major battlefields in 1776, you could argue. Are there any memorials of the British dead he's going to go to
28:57
And what's the king going to go there when he goes on? Hey, I'm harking on about American victories
29:03
Yeah. Okay, the 13 colonies over the British Empire, etc., etc. or he's the leader of the king
29:09
or certainly the Commonwealth. Do you think the king, I mean, just your entirely personal opinion
29:15
is it right that he's going? No. Why not? For these reasons
29:18
I think because of the reasons of because how he's insulted. Whether he hates Starmer or likes Starmer
29:25
he's the leader of our country in the political head. And you can't go
29:29
and he's degenerating England again and again and again. And he turns around and says
29:36
you know, Chuck, he's a great mate of mine. And Charles must be thinking, really
29:40
Yeah, of course. I'm going to sit there and take that. He's a great mate of mine
29:44
So the question of whether the monarch should go to the commemoration, to the anniversary, is not the same question, depending on who the president is
29:53
Because that's the counter to your position, is it doesn't matter who the president is
29:57
This is about relations between two countries, not two. people. Absolutely. And what they celebrate, they're going for
30:03
any particular reason. 1776 doesn't really work, you could argue. Where are the Spanish going to be
30:10
Are the Dutch going to be there? The French going to be there? No, I know. I get all that. And what about the Falklands
30:16
I don't know about you. I was slightly taken aback on Friday to learn that it's on a memo
30:19
about things they can do to punish the UK. They want to chuck Spain out
30:23
of NATO, or they've mooted chucking Spain out of NATO and refusing to recognise
30:27
British sovereignty in the Falklands would be a way of hurting us, and that is the backdrop
30:32
to the king's blooming visit. First off, no Spain, no America, I would argue, in many ways
30:38
The Falks, like many of us, I'm of an age when we remember it. Absolutely
30:42
Okay? Quite well. I was in Fleet Street at the time, and they were getting chucked
30:46
out of Reuters when all of the photographs were coming in, and no one was
30:50
allowed to be in the building. Wow. Okay, I can remember that quite well
30:54
And when you look at what America did at the time, in the lack
30:58
of support, you could argue, during the full clint. Don't go on about exoset missiles
31:04
being manufactured in France. There were components in exoset manufactured in the UK
31:09
a company I work for. America now, Europe, it might as well be
31:15
the far side of the moon as they're concerned. Yeah, I hear you
31:19
So again, we're dancing on this particular pinhead, aren't we, of he could do
31:24
all manner of outrageous and disgusting things, but given that we now expect
31:27
outrageous and disgusting things from him, how much would it matter? The resonance of a Bush or an Obama
31:33
doing some of the things that we are speculating upon would be, I think, audible from space
31:38
But the resonance of a Trump doing it, I do not know. I do not know
31:42
I was reading up about the Falklands again. As in something else I was reading up about this weekend
31:48
Two things that I discovered this weekend. Number one was the depth and breadth of belief
31:56
that the last assassination attempt on Donald Trump, the one where his ear got injured
32:01
was a fake, was a false flag, and that's coming more from fans or former fans of the man
32:07
than it is from critics. And the other thing I learnt about that I wasn't previously aware of
32:12
was that during the run-up to and during the 1982 conflict in the Falkland Islands
32:19
Israel was supplying significant weaponry to the Argentine Junta, which, again, puts recent events in a slightly different light
32:29
Thank you, Gary. Paul is in Cambridge. Paul, what would you like to say? Yes, on this subject, James
32:34
Yes. The reason, from America's point of view, why Charles is going is to massage Trump's ego
32:40
because it always is. Unfortunately, we're complicit now by sending Charles. He should never have been sent
32:46
but he's going to go there in an effort to massage Trump's ego
32:50
What's the worst that can happen? Yeah, what is the worst that can happen? Well, Trump's going to do what he did to the Japanese
32:56
He's going to embarrass Charles. And in England, either about the Falklands
33:01
about our soldiers or something, he's bound to do this. And Charles, unfortunately, has his hands tied
33:06
He's meant to be apolitical. And the worst thing that happened, you have to sit there and smirk and laugh
33:11
along with the other sycophants. That's the bit that I... I mean, I'm not a particularly flag-waving royalist
33:18
and you know I think that the necessity of forgetting that royals are mere humans is a dangerous thing
33:27
but that room is as you've reminded us it's full of cronies and sycophants
33:33
I mean it's a hideous conclave of cretins and there's no one there to leaven the pudding is there
33:42
to leaven the... so what will Charles have to do? He'll have to sit there with a Richter's grin
33:47
And they used to say that his late mother, you probably know this, Paul, I used to love these little anecdotes
33:53
His late mother would sometimes just push food if she was at a state banquet somewhere else
33:58
and she'd been served a local delicacy that she found unpalatable. She was apparently very good at pushing her food around the plate without really eating any of it
34:06
in the way that it looked as if she had eaten some of it by the time. So that language of weapons-grade diplomacy, what does Trump do
34:15
What does Charles do if Trump says something comparable to the Pearl Harbor comments
34:20
or the insulting of our war dead in Afghanistan comments? In the presence of the king, the room starts chuckling and patting him on the back and giving him biscuits
34:29
like the recalcitrant toddler he clearly is. What does Charles do in that moment
34:35
Well, we'd love to think it would be a sort of love actually..
34:39
I'm terribly sorry, Mr. President. I'm going to have to stop you there. That kind of thing
34:44
He's not going to do that, though, is he? No, he's not going to do it. I'd love to think he would do it
34:49
As I said to Abby, if Princess Anne was there, she would do it. But unfortunately, Charles won't do it
34:54
He'll do his kingly duty in accordance to the way his mother used to do her duty
34:59
which is to be apolitical. Hopefully he won't smirk and laugh like the sycophants, at least not that
35:04
Well, he definitely won't do that. He definitely won't do that. So what's in it for us? Nothing
35:09
Nothing. Only minuses, as usual. Only minuses. And I think we've humiliated ourselves by making this gesture of sending the king
35:19
It means something to the country and to the world when you send the king
35:25
The deal was done when some people were still clinging to the carcass of credibility for Donald Trump, wasn't it
35:32
Because it was after the state visit when they let him drive around Windsor Castle in a carriage
35:36
And they sent him home again with a goodie bag and a lollipop for clearing his plate
35:40
And then the reciprocal invitation was issued and accepted. That was before he launched his war with Benjamin Netanyahu in Iran
35:50
It was before yet more evidence of his obvious depravity emerged. And I don't know that we can rescind an invitation once it's given
35:57
It was given when people still thought that mollifying Trump or appeasing Trump was a worthwhile exercise
36:05
We had this conversation before, the rabid dog conversation I had with you
36:09
and we had this type of... I understand what you're saying, James
36:12
but I saw this in 2015. In 2001, why was it obvious to me
36:18
a mere mortal, a nobody, that this guy was deadly dangerous? I don't think you win any prizes for that
36:24
I mean, lots of people thought that he was deadly dangerous. It was more the shame of our media, I think
36:29
It's people who get paid for their opinions, like Dick Littlejohn at the Daily Mail who couldn't see the evidence
36:34
that was blindingly obvious to you and to anybody honest, But of course, you know the answer to this
36:40
The answer is racism, misogyny and climate change denial. If those are your three guiding stars
36:46
the three things that you love most in the world, any combination of the above
36:50
racism, misogyny and climate change denial, with, I mean, in fourth place, transphobia as well, of course
36:55
attacks upon transgender people. If that is what floats your boat, that's what gets you out of bed every morning
37:00
that's what puts lead in your pencil when you're sitting down to write your column, then you will never, ever, ever be able to abandon Trump
37:07
because he not only represents the very worst of you, he also excuses it
37:12
And that is why some people can see it with incredible clarity
37:17
and some people will never be able to admit that they can see it too, because it's the depravity that they love
37:22
So the depravity denial becomes de rigueur It 1045 James O on LBC Quite a few of you suggesting in texts and suggesting it in a diplomatic fashion
37:35
that some of the most fraught territory that Donald Trump could start exploring in the presence of the King
37:43
would involve the King's late wife, Diana Princess of Wales. And of course, we are talking about a man
37:48
past whom you would put nothing, would you? Is there a comment so inappropriate
37:53
so unpleasant, so wrong that you cannot imagine Donald Trump saying it
37:58
greeted the death of a former head of the FBI by saying I'm glad he's dead
38:03
talked about John McCain a Vietnam war hero as being, I prefer my heroes not to get caught
38:10
this is a quintuple draft dodger someone who talked about the hundreds of British service personnel
38:16
who died in Afghanistan essentially he called them cowards can you conceive of a comment so gross
38:22
that Donald Trump would not say it? Because if you can, I've got a bridge you might like to buy
38:30
And then you're left with this thing that always comes fast behind observations about Donald Trump
38:36
which is the question of whether or not any of it matters at all
38:41
Are we wasting our time? He could say something so utterly, utterly vile
38:46
And then 12 hours later, we'd have all moved on to somewhere else. It was Friday that we discovered they were thinking of reviewing their recognition of British sovereignty in the Falklands to punish us for not being war criminals, for not joining Netanyahu and Trump on their illegal escapades in Iran
39:06
They now want to punish NATO allies for obeying the rules of NATO
39:10
and on Friday we learned that something, as I think Gary in Calais highlighted a moment ago
39:16
something that has a unique place in the collective memory for people of certain generations in this country
39:24
You know, an illegal invasion of sovereign British territory that was repelled by political and military determination
39:30
A really proud moment in British history unless you're a fully paid-up pacifist
39:35
which is a position I respect but don't share. and he is now, that has been tainted, that is being polluted
39:42
that memory is being insulted. There is no depth he would not plumb
39:46
but does any of it actually matter? Because 12 hours later he'll do or say something else
39:51
he'll announce another ceasefire or he'll announce another obliteration or he'll announce another U-turn or he'll announce another two-week deadline
39:58
and we'll all be moving on and talking about something else. Best thing that can happen
40:04
We forget pretty quickly the bad thing that happened. In terms of a net positive, something that can be improved or enhanced
40:12
at the moment on my list, there is nothing. Perhaps David in Bayswater will change that
40:17
David, what made you pick up the phone? Ah, yes, yeah, just a few quick points
40:21
First of all, I think everyone would agree that this visit from the start
40:26
even before the war and everything, it's symbolic and performative. And it's been like that. All royal visits are like that
40:32
And I think it's important that we turn the other cheek and we be very diplomatic and rise above the pettiness of Trump
40:40
And I know you and many people feel very insulted by what he said, rightfully so
40:46
but I think we need to move beyond that and show that the king is representing Britain
40:51
and he's going to America not just to see Trump. He's also going to go and see the Congress and the Senate
40:56
And that's important in the future because if we create positive feelings among the Senate and the Congress
41:03
then they're more likely to vote for things maybe that are in our interest in the future
41:07
You really think so? Yes, I do, actually. Obviously, I hope you're right
41:12
but, I mean, the evidence is not on your side, is it? Well, and it's just my opinion, but..
41:16
I know, but I like evidence. And I think we have to admit the evidence is not on your side
41:21
that he's suddenly going to become... Well, you don't know the future, James, do you? No, I know the past. You don't get evidence from the future
41:26
You get evidence from the past. And the evidence is he's about as reliable as a boa constrictor
41:32
No, but he won't be there forever. and some of the Senate people will be there afterwards and they will remember the visit
41:36
and think, yeah, Britain really does respect our country. And the point is the relationship between Britain and the US
41:44
is 250 years, you know, it's very long. It goes beyond the king and beyond the president
41:49
We have to remember that. It's more than these two individuals. No, I don't think everybody knows that with respect
41:54
Well, I know, but in the conversation, it's not being framed like that. No, well..
41:59
You're framing it as two individuals. Yes, well, that's what I've chosen to do
42:02
I mean, it is a conversation about two individuals. It's kind of a given that the context extends further
42:09
both backwards and forwards, into the past and into the future. But a fairly clear question about what's the worst thing that can happen in that room
42:16
if you think back to Volodymyr Zelensky's visit and the orchestrated, attempted humiliation of a man
42:22
who is fighting against Vladimir Putin. This is what I mean, David, by there being no depth that he would not plumb
42:30
You think of something unspeakably hideous that a United States president could do in the presence of our king
42:36
and you bet me your bottom dollar that Donald Trump won't do it, and you wouldn't take that bet
42:43
You wouldn't take that bet. James, you can't frame the relationship between the king and Donald Trump as with Zelensky
42:49
It's completely different. The likelihood of him behaving towards the king as he did to Zelensky is, I think, absolutely minimal
42:57
So to whom do you think he has behaved respectfully and appropriately in his term as president this time
43:03
Well, the point is the king is far more neutral. He's not coming there as a head of a government
43:07
He's just a symbol of Britain. He's a head of state, but to whom do you think Donald Trump has behaved respectfully in the Oval Office this time around
43:16
But none of them have had the... The Prime Minister of Japan. The Prime Minister of Japan
43:20
The king is an apolitical figure. He's not like those other leaders, James
43:24
You just can't make the comparison. I'm not, I'm just asking you, to whom has he behaved appropriately or respectfully
43:30
It's irrelevant. It's irrelevant because the king is in a completely different league
43:34
So nobody. No, you're trying to frame the argument to make your point
43:38
but I'm telling you the king is not the same as other politicians. I'm not, I'm just asking you a friendly question
43:42
He's met other heads of state and he's insulted them, so why would our king be different? Because the king is in a different kind of position as the other people
43:51
He doesn't have any political... Trump knows that the king is just forced to go there
43:56
and represent the British government. There's no reason he's going to be aggressive towards the king
44:01
But he's already lied about it. He's already lied about him. Well, that may be
44:06
but I just don't see the scenario you're trying to paint. You're trying to make it up. I'm not trying to paint any scenario
44:11
I'm just wondering. I mean, there is an answer to your question. The only person he's treated in the Oval Office
44:15
with appropriate decorum and respect would be Benjamin Netanyahu, actually. But maybe the king will get lucky
44:22
and he'll get that sort of treatment. But if you honestly don't think there's a possibility
44:26
of him saying something about Diana, Princess of Wales, of him saying something about Andrew, Mountbatten Windsor
44:33
of him saying something about the Falkland Islands, of him saying something about Keir Starmer
44:37
in the presence of the King, then I might put you on my list of potential bridge purchasers, David
44:43
Thank you. Steve's in Crawley. Steve, what would you like to say? Good morning, James. How much is your bridge
44:49
Well, it depends. How much have you got? 20 quid Carry on
44:54
What made you pick up the phone Not to buy a bridge No not to buy a bridge What can we gain gain what can the king lose Gain I think we have to respect the position of President of the United States not the man
45:08
Yeah, we do, don't we? Because he's not going to be there forever, because he's not going to be there forever
45:11
even though he might think he will, wants to be. What could he potentially lose, and I think there is a really large chance of this
45:18
is being humiliated. Yeah. just as you say um trump cannot stop saying words um that make absolutely no sense um and he could
45:30
very easily come up with something that he thinks is totally reasonable but will humiliate
45:35
the king and and great britain and probably europe and and then it's over by the next day
45:41
this is the best thing we've got the silver lining to the cloud that you describe is that
45:45
We're so used to it now that we will watch the news cycle turn around and move on
45:52
I mean, the thing, I mean, the Afghanistan comments, there's so many things he's done that I find
45:56
for me, it began with the abuse of that disabled journalist, actually. The points that you look back on and think, that should have been the end of it
46:02
That should have been the point at which everybody involved said, no, we can't possibly contemplate this
46:05
We can't countenance it. But not only, of course, did he win that, but he came back after losing to win another election
46:12
all the points in the path that you just think provide evidence
46:15
that people are prepared to put up with anything in return for whatever it is that he gives them
46:21
he will do something pretty grim in the presence of the king, and we've already factored it into our contemplation
46:27
It's expected. He will, he will. But if he does do something awful
46:32
and in a way, I'm kind of hoping he does, because I think it's about time that the rest of the world
46:39
had the ammunition to move away from its dependence on America, and certainly on the dollar
46:44
because the euro is now bigger than the dollar. But... I was about to..
46:49
I'm glad I paused to let you finish that point. I was about to call you a sweet summer child there, Steve
46:53
because I thought you were going to say that other people, the scales may fall from their eyes if he insults the king
46:58
and they'll see what he has always been, but which they have been unable to see previously
47:03
Because I don't think either of us expect that now from the sort of fully paid-up members of the still fans
47:09
club. But yeah, I mean, the idea it's a difficult one though, because you
47:13
describe a dichotomy. On the one hand, it's much more than the current incumbent. It's a
47:17
relationship between two countries. On the other hand, the dollar's dominance on
47:21
global markets is something that we now question and possibly want to see an end of, because
47:25
we have been shown that the slightly lazy presumption that America would always be our friend
47:31
always be our ally, always act in the interests of the West, has
47:35
been completely destroyed by Donald Trump. 10.58 is the time. Thank you, Steve. Last word on this
47:40
to Rhian, who's in Swansea. Rhian, what do you reckon? Oh, hello. I'm afraid
47:44
my thunder's been stolen a bit by the previous two callers. Don't worry. I don't
47:48
think that... When we talk about Trump humiliating King Charles, I think
47:54
we need to be very, very careful about how we frame that. Trump
47:58
is... He's not a self-made man. He's a spoiled boy, and he's managed to
48:04
bully himself into this position where he as a president. Charles has been
48:08
ahead of the curve with a lot of things, just for example, ecology
48:12
and all of that. And he's not the regent that his mother was
48:18
She was showing her thoughts very subtly, for example, the European Union blue outfit
48:26
with the yellow. But I think Charles has got, obviously he's more modern
48:32
he's got the influence of his his sons and whatever because you've got William and Kate due to go over
48:39
as well, haven't we, at some point? I think so, but this makes him more likely
48:42
But we still don't know what speaking up would look like. I agree with you. I don't know what word to use
48:47
when I describe what happened to Zelensky in the Oval. So I actually... Well, it was an attempted
48:52
humiliation because he wasn't humiliating in the sense that everybody decent watching thought that he was
48:58
treated appallingly and came out with more warmth and affection for him than they did before
49:02
So, I mean, it was an attempted humiliation. And if the king finds himself in that sort of situation
49:07
it would be awful to watch. I don't think that Charles would do what Zelensky did, though
49:14
No. I don't think Charles would fight his corner, if you know what I mean
49:19
I think he would let... He'd just smile and let it all wash over him. He would just watch Trump, you know
49:25
and this isn't going to be the correct phrase, But not exactly give him enough rope to hang himself, but just to let Trump go on enough
49:36
And I'm sure we're within a facial expression. He'll be in a bigger room, is what you're saying, than the overlords
49:41
He'll be in front of the world while Trump will be performing for his coterie of cronies sycophanties
49:48
Indeed. Yeah. And there will be people behind the scenes as well, because, you know, despite his, and as your previous callers said
49:56
he is a lame-duck president now. so there will be people behind the scenes
50:01
you know J.D. Vance or Rubio or whoever they've got their egos to be massaged
50:09
as well and David in Bayswater I think the point he was making
50:16
would be that he's not going to attack Charles and the point I was making was I don't think he is going to do a Zelensky on him
50:21
obviously he's more likely to do a Prime Minister of Japan and say something
50:25
completely outrageous just grim, but not, you know, no one's going to die
50:31
it's not going to be either metaphorically or actually, it's just going to be like your, tell me what it's going to be like, Rhianne
50:36
it's going to be like your slightly sort of poorly uncle sitting at the Christmas table and everybody just sitting there
50:42
waiting for him to say something outrageous or waiting for him to say something hideous
50:46
or really sexist or really racist or whatever it is that your uncle that can't really be trusted at social occasions
50:54
can be relied upon to do at social occasions. And you're right. You're absolutely right
50:59
If anyone can cope with that, it's the man who's had a lifetime's training on responding diplomatically to difficult circumstances
51:05
God save the king. James O'Brien on LBC. Five minutes after 11 is the time
51:12
Quite a few of you pointing out that if Donald Trump can attack the Pope, then I don't think that the King, King Charles
51:18
will be afforded or enjoys any special status. If the Pope is fair game for his hideous rantings
51:27
then, you know, the king will probably consider himself lucky if he comes home uninsulted, whether intentionally or unintentionally
51:36
Keep an eye on those proceedings. Catch up with Simon Marks later in this show as well
51:41
about events in Washington on Saturday night, UK time, and the ramifications thereof
51:48
But we return now to what I've told you on a few occasions is, in many ways, the most important thing we ever talk about
51:59
Because this is about your life. It's not just about your life, it's about the length of your life and the quality of your life
52:07
I'm interested in catching up with a little more about that speech that Keir Starmer has just given
52:11
because I think he's at his best when he's talking about the path not taken, when he's talking about..
52:16
And this, for me, is the difference between right-wing and left-wing politics. When he talking about people who society can help rather than people for whom society can help them help themselves which is a slightly lazy and simplistic ysis of left versus right politics
52:35
But when he talks about his late brother Nick and people that society should be doing more for
52:41
helping them to get ahead or helping them to make more meaningful contributions
52:48
and lead more meaningful lives, that for me is what politics should be about
52:52
And you make a list of all the things we should be talking about in this country instead of whatever Nigel Farage's latest fever dream may be
52:59
moving, as I told you it would, away from immigration, because that is now coming down
53:04
and towards people living on welfare, which won't include pensioners, of course
53:09
are by far the biggest recipients of welfare payments in this country, but will include people on universal credit who've got jobs
53:17
people with disabilities, almost anybody you can think of. who has need for state support
53:24
will be in the firing line, just as I told you would happen is now happening
53:29
So of all the things that we should be talking about, if you're truly patriotic
53:33
what do you want for your neighbour? Do you want them to have a nylon flag
53:39
dangling from their lamppost as soon as possible, or do you want them to have more years of good life
53:47
If your patriotism is about people rather than symbols, And racism, which of course, tragically, often co-opts patriotism, as Dr Johnson observed, the last refuge of a scoundrel
54:00
But if you truly, if your patriotism is about people, about your neighbours, about your friends, about your family, about your fellow humans on these islands
54:11
then what do you want for those people? You want them to have more years of good life
54:20
not as in Richard Bryers and Felicity Kendall necessarily, but just as in enjoyable, healthy years
54:28
So we talked a lot about the difference between the rich and the poor
54:34
I think we did it last week or the week before, and it's a subject of abiding fascination to me
54:40
because I honestly think we're probably never more siloed than we are when it comes to health privilege and health deprivation
54:47
because we live in the same country, and we think that we have access to the same NHS, and we can go to the same shops
54:52
although we've got different amounts of money to spend. How can there possibly be a 20-year difference
54:58
between people living in the same country when it comes to life expectancy
55:04
or when it comes to health outcomes? But today's story is not about that
55:08
Today's story is actually about the UK performing much worse than other countries
55:16
Over the past decade, the healthy life expectancy, as in the number of years of healthy life you can expect to lead
55:24
since 2016, I don't know if you can think of anything significant that happened in 2016
55:29
that was supposed to make all of our lives better. I'm sure we'll come up with something if we put our heads together
55:34
But since 2016, the United Kingdom has seen that healthy life expectancy drop
55:41
by around two years. we're living in an era where technological advances and various other improvements should
55:54
be delivering constant incremental improvement to our lives when you think about the accumulated
56:01
wealth of our population when you think about the ease with which we can do things that were
56:05
once not possible whether you want to focus on indoor toilets and central heating or
56:11
running water and convenience stores that are open all the time. And even people like me, born in the 70s
56:21
some people have a slightly rose-tinted or sepia-tinted view of the past
56:26
Some people see everything in black and white. But by all objective measures, things have got better, right
56:35
So why on earth is our healthy life expectancy falling? By two years, the highest in the world
56:47
And yes, Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings handled the COVID pandemic disastrously
56:52
when it is compared to other countries, and that is going to be part of the problem
56:57
And then you have the Osborne's razor. Don't text me to say that it's Ockham's
57:01
I have invented Osborne's razor. I'm not misspeaking. It is the question of problems in society in 2026
57:09
that when you dig down into them, often lead back to George Osborne's decision
57:12
to punish the poorest people in the country for no discernible reason
57:17
So poverty, poor housing, and then lifestyle factors such as obesity, all to blame along with the impact of the COVID pandemic
57:26
Now, I mean, none of those are unique to the United Kingdom
57:31
but all of those are contributory factors to the decline in the number of healthy years
57:39
you can expect to live. There is an exception to this observation
57:44
Would you like to have a pop at what the exception is? A region where things have got better
57:51
A region that has seen an improvement in healthy life expectancy over this period
57:56
Because I have to tell you, this, more than anything at the moment
58:00
makes my blood boil. The maligning of my adopted home by various foreign liars and racists
58:09
is the thing I'm probably going to write another book about. And I swore to you that if I ever announced
58:15
I was intending to write another book, you were to take me out and metaphorically shoot me
58:20
But apart from that thing we touched on in the last hour
58:24
about Donald Trump insulting... Oh, you're right, I didn't invent Osborne's razor
58:28
Someone texted me. I think they were called James. My apologies. I can't believe I've just stolen that from you
58:33
um i i apart from the insulting of our war dead the thing that makes my blood boil and i'm more
58:40
or less immune to boiling blood doing this for a living you know um is is the lies and the appalling
58:47
calumnies being visited upon my my home london town not specifically brentford but london by
58:54
liars and racists all over the internet and indeed all over this country the number of people who've never visited London
59:00
who are convinced that it is absolutely hell on earth and entirely unsafe and shockingly poor
59:05
and dangerous and full of foreigners and all of these things are living in parts of the country
59:11
where their healthy life expectancy is falling while ours is rising London is the only region in the United Kingdom
59:20
that has seen an improvement in healthy life expectancy over the last ten years
59:25
I might be a little bit niche to look at that I might be a little bit niche to wonder why London is doing so much
59:36
but would it no maybe it wouldn't be I just don't want you to feel excluded from the conversation
59:40
if you're not in London because there are at least three elements to this conversation
59:46
already in place one is why the UK one is why the last 10 years
59:52
and one is why not London and I think that we will do all of those
1:00:00
So, for the avoidance of doubt, this isn't an opinion, this is counting
1:00:05
The UK is one of only five of the richest 21 countries to see healthy life expectancy decline over the last 10 years
1:00:12
So, it's not unique, but it has fallen the furthest. The steepest fall in the wealthy world, if you like, the steepest fall in the life expectancy of rich nations in the last 10 years
1:00:28
Only 5 out of 21 have gone down, and we have gone down the furthest. Question number one, why
1:00:35
0345 6060973. Why would the UK be suffering more than any other country in the world
1:00:45
when it comes to healthy life expectancy? And look me in the eye and tell me that this isn't a rather more important story
1:00:52
than whatever Nigel Farage is wanging on about today. This is a country in which your years of healthy life are diminishing further and faster than anywhere else in the world
1:01:05
Obviously a direct consequence of austerity, almost certainly of Brexit, and pretty clearly of the appalling handling of the Covid pandemic by Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings
1:01:15
but nonetheless, there will be more detailed answers to that question, more obvious reasons
1:01:22
Why? Why is the UK falling further and faster than any other country in the world when it comes to years of healthy life expectancy
1:01:33
And why is London moving in the other direction? I don't think it can be about the cleaner air, can it
1:01:43
Because London had a much bigger problem than anywhere else in the first place
1:01:47
Maybe if you were comparing London to other cities, then ULES and cleaner air might be part of the answer
1:01:52
as to why we can expect more health. I mean, think about all the bozos
1:01:57
who were brainwashed into thinking that ULES was something that they should have been opposed to
1:02:03
What do we want? Dirty air. When do we want it? Always. I'm going to go and cut down cameras because I love dirty air
1:02:09
I want my children to be breathing petrol fumes. Yeah, damn with clean air
1:02:13
Maybe it is. I don't know. I haven't got the science. I ain't got the Latin. But I know that London is going in the opposite direction
1:02:19
from the rest of the country, and I want you to tell me why. 0345 60 60 973
1:02:25
And then, so why the UK? What I'd like you also to do
1:02:31
and I really love it when we do this, and we don't do it often enough because we don't usually get the comparisons
1:02:36
between other countries. We're usually talking about the gulf between the rich and the poor
1:02:40
which is an equally fascinating conversation, but a slightly different one. when you go somewhere else so if you if you have spent time in other countries
1:02:50
i want you to tell me what surprises you so when you are in france or japan or germany
1:02:58
and you you are surprised by something that probably helps to explain why they're healthier
1:03:03
than we are do you see what i mean i'll give you a brilliant example we've talked about this in the
1:03:09
past a couple of years ago took a call from a long distance lorry driver who simply described
1:03:13
what was on offer when he parks the rig at a motorway service station
1:03:18
And it was as if he was describing the Elysian Fields. You know, healthy food, good food, options, choices
1:03:27
presumptions of good health. And then you compare it to what happens when you pull over at Heston
1:03:33
and it's basically Greggs or a sandwich in a plastic bag. They're getting a little bit better
1:03:38
and there are some good service stations in this country, but I want you to tell me what surprises you
1:03:43
And vice versa, if you have spent a lot of time somewhere else
1:03:48
and then you've come to this country, and you've kind of gone a bit goggle-eyed at how we live our lives
1:03:56
you say, yeah, all right, I mean, it's nice to have a sausage roll occasionally
1:04:00
but you can't have four every day. Do you see what I mean? What is it about this country that explains why our healthy life expectancy
1:04:08
has dropped further and faster than anywhere else in the world? anywhere else in the world
1:04:16
And this, of course, at a time when we're paying more attention to it than we ever have done
1:04:20
This is the great conundrum, particularly perhaps for the middle classes, because we are bombarded constantly
1:04:26
by exhortations to be healthier. Why don't you have some kale? Please buy an air fryer
1:04:31
Have you had your muesli today? Oh, have I told you about my overnight oats recipe
1:04:35
All of these bombardments at the middle class field are A, not working
1:04:40
because this statistic holds true across the entire population, and B, not reaching the parts that need reaching most
1:04:47
You know, ultra-processed food is not unique to the United Kingdom, but it's clearly having a worse impact on us
1:04:54
than it is on other countries. Why the UK? And the lovely little anecdotal items of evidence that you've got
1:05:04
So I'll tell you what, James, when I moved to the UK, I could not believe that dot, dot, dot
1:05:09
Yeah? I couldn't believe that you lot dot, dot. what is it that we do that you, as someone who hasn't spent your entire life here, can't quite
1:05:16
believe that we do and almost certainly contributes to this decline in healthy life expectancy
1:05:22
So that's why the UK. Why the past decade? What is it about the last 10 years that have seen these
1:05:29
things get worse, not better? All right, I'll take anything you've got on that. 0345 6060973
1:05:36
Listen, I am a Brexit obsessive. I will tell you that my supermarkets, and I go to quite a few
1:05:41
different ones are nowhere near as well stocked in 2026 as they were in 2016
1:05:45
We run out of stuff more quickly, and stuff is more expensive. That might be part of it. I speak as someone
1:05:51
who doesn't really need to check the prices when he's pushing his trolley or
1:05:55
carting his basket around Morrisons, but he clocks when shelves are empty
1:05:59
particularly fresh food. If I want fresh fruit and vegetables, it was never, ever
1:06:03
ever the case previously that they wouldn't be on the shelves, and now sometimes, not always
1:06:07
but sometimes they're not. I don't know. Someone, perhaps, better versed in supply chains might be able to answer that question
1:06:15
So why the last 10 years? Why has that had such a bad decline in this country
1:06:22
So why the UK? I know I said Wursa. Nobody's perfect. I won't say it again
1:06:27
I made another mistake in the last hour as well. I'll cough to that in a minute. So why the UK
1:06:31
Why is the UK doing so badly? Why have the last 10 years been so significant
1:06:36
And crucially, at a time when enormous effort has been put into portraying London as some sort of hellhole
1:06:42
Why is London doing better than the rest of the country? Why is London getting healthier
1:06:47
while the rest of the country is getting unhealthier? And that is the question I think I'm..
1:06:55
Well, no, I'm not most interested in an answer to that question, but that might turn out to be the least expected
1:07:02
Because London is the land of deliveroo. You see what I mean? You would think London might be worse
1:07:07
Why is it better? Hit the numbers now, you will get through. It's 11.21
1:07:11
James O'Brien on LBC. It's 23 minutes after 11. Why is London the only region in the United Kingdom
1:07:20
that has seen an improvement in healthy life expectancy over the last 10 years
1:07:24
I haven got a Scooby Unless it is everyone mocks me for the way I say this word so I say it the way you say it now is it you less is it simply the fact that london more than any other population londoners have but no because well yes because there just fewer cars on our roads you can
1:07:41
you can taste the difference if you are um minded to if you notice pollution in london now and then
1:07:49
you remember god it was always like this so you walk up oxford street and occasionally you know
1:07:54
an old car will go past or something. And you get that little taste. There's a vintage car people near me
1:08:00
and I love it. They're great, the vintage cars, but they're not ULES compliant, obviously
1:08:04
But I think there's an age, isn't there? An age limit, an age exemption on it. And if a few of them go past in convoy
1:08:08
which happens on a Sunday sometimes, you really taste it on the high street
1:08:12
So could the London thing be down to air cleanliness? I honestly don't know
1:08:18
But I do know that it's true, and I do want to know why you think it is. Julian is in Maidenhead
1:08:23
Julian, what would you like to say? Oh, good morning, firstly, James
1:08:27
Hello, Julian. Hello. So I think it's a, I don't think the word is concatenation
1:08:32
but a sequence of unfortunate events, to quote the book. Lemony Snicket
1:08:38
That's the one. Other country, America, is notably the other poor-performing country
1:08:47
Now, they haven't had as much of a, as many of these events in sequences
1:08:53
we have had, but the two things do tally quite well. So you have, in the United Kingdom, we have austerity
1:09:03
So that, obviously, if you bring people's buying power down, they're not going to be able to afford the right quality food
1:09:08
they're not going to be living in the best conditions, etc., etc., mental health, and so on
1:09:13
Indeed, our own mental health issue is a whole other raft of, you know
1:09:18
a whole pandemic. So that's Osborne's razor. That takes us back to George Osborne
1:09:22
Yes, and thanks again to James for that. Not you, James. I know, sorry
1:09:27
I'm going to actually stop pointing that out until everyone thinks I invented it
1:09:31
It'll be the new footballification, but carry on. So there's Osborne's razor
1:09:38
Then on top of that, we've had Brexit, which has affected, again, even further
1:09:46
people's purchasing ability and indeed the supply of food. But you know what's going to happen this hour
1:09:54
Is that we're going to assemble these things, some more obvious than others, and none of them are going to answer the third question
1:10:01
which is why is London going in the opposite direction? Does Brexit, austerity, they're all very London relevant
1:10:07
I don't know. Like you said, there will have to be, mine may be greater than mine
1:10:13
maybe not as great as yours, but people who are dedicated to looking at the facts, the statistics
1:10:17
everything that we're saying is basically subjective we might have some inkling of the objectivity but
1:10:24
they're going to be subjective yes there's a clear difference between London and the rest of the country
1:10:30
in terms of the autonomy that it exercises over a very large swathe of population
1:10:37
and the differences that they put in place I say they, I mean him
1:10:42
but there are certain differences that London, different directions London took. You're thinking about, so we're putting
1:10:50
austerity, Brexit and you, Les, on our list then? Or congestion charges as well
1:10:56
I mean, Boris Johnson. Congestion charges. Maybe the Boris bikes. There was a time when he
1:11:00
wasn't completely awful. Yeah, okay, granted. Which did lead us down to an awful..
1:11:05
Other cities have got all of these things. Maybe that's the question we won't be able to answer, is the
1:11:10
uniqueness of London on this field. But austerity, so if I hit these buttons
1:11:14
why the UK, what's specific to the UK, we've got austerity and Brexit
1:11:19
why the last 10 years we've got austerity and Brexit, and then what is it that we do differently from other countries
1:11:27
that those are not going to be specific to the last 10 years, but austerity and Brexit are going to have made them all worse
1:11:32
Here's the other secret sauce, I think secret sauce, and I'm not sure how it ties in perfectly
1:11:40
but I think it does feed these other elements, is the amount of fake news and media
1:11:48
and foreign influence in our media that other countries don't tend to have
1:11:54
Why does that affect life expectancy? Because if you can incentivise people to do bad things
1:12:01
through, you know, telling them that this is what's happening... What do you mean angry, frightened people become less healthy
1:12:09
I suspect so, yes No, I like this argument I was just pushing you towards it
1:12:16
to the full stop and that actually so the people who live in London
1:12:21
I mean this is too good to be true from our perspective, Julian the people who live in London
1:12:27
are not angry and frightened of London because they live here and they know that it's great
1:12:30
whereas the rest of the country has been brainwashed into thinking that London is a terrifying, dangerous place
1:12:35
and therefore their lives are shortening as a consequence of distress high blood pressure and fear
1:12:39
that they suffer from as a consequence of all the online liars and racists. I love it. I absolutely love it
1:12:44
I don't think it's going to necessarily touch the sides of the kind of statistical shifts that we're looking at
1:12:49
but it might be part of a much, much bigger problem. I mean, I wonder whether even the sort of choice of food that you have in London
1:12:57
So, where I am in Brentford, which is a West London suburb
1:13:02
the Middle Eastern supermarkets of food at low prices and really good healthy stuff
1:13:09
to the entire community. I'm not suggesting that no other cities or towns have Middle Eastern supermarkets
1:13:16
but you've got a lot more multiculturalism going on in London. And what this finding tells us
1:13:21
is that other cultures are healthier than ours. So that could be part of it as well
1:13:25
Multiculturalism makes you live longer. Might be a helpful slogan. 29 minutes after 11 is the time
1:13:31
More on this, please. Especially if you can hit the London question. Because, you know, younger people are moving out of London
1:13:37
So, technically, the healthier people are the ones that are moving on. And yet, healthy life expectancy in London is going up
1:13:43
There's going to be a slightly higher income threshold, but then the prices are higher as well
1:13:48
I do not understand why London is an anomaly on this, unless you, Les, is actually the biggest and most significant answer
1:13:57
In which case, I think Sadiq Khan has owned a massive, massive apology. by precisely the sort of racists and liars who populate social media
1:14:03
telling us that London is an awful place to live. Here's David Don with your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC
1:14:09
It is a good news story for Londoners and a bad news story for everybody else, which is a little odd
1:14:14
given that so much effort has currently been put into maligning and misrepresenting London as some sort of hellhole
1:14:19
Did I see one of Donald Trump's idiot sons joining in with this on some platform at the weekend
1:14:27
I mean, I'm not on Truth Social. I don't even know. I must have seen it. Someone must have picked it up and posted it on Blue Sky
1:14:34
Just this idea that London, that J.D. Vance saying we've got a freedom of speech problem in this country
1:14:38
London has a peculiar set of issues. Well, why is healthy life expectancy going up in this city
1:14:45
and going down everywhere else in the United Kingdom? And why is the United Kingdom going down
1:14:50
when the rest of the world is going up, except for the countries that are going down
1:14:54
which are not going down as far or as fast as us and Brexit listen I don actually think I have to apologise anymore to people who voted for it and still don realise the mistake that they made
1:15:05
because if you still don't realise the mistake that you made, you don't really deserve my apology or my respect anymore
1:15:10
because you are a traitor to this country's interests and to future generations
1:15:15
And that was forgivable in the immediate aftermath and in the context of the effort that was put in to persuading you that it was a good idea
1:15:22
But if you're still banging that drum now, then you are a traitor to your own children's future. And your life is getting shorter
1:15:27
partly as a consequence of what you were persuaded to do. So contempt for the con, then compassion for the con
1:15:33
has probably passed its expiry date now. The only thing that might be relevant
1:15:40
if you want to get really wonky about this, wonkish even, would be that because we no longer have lots of young people
1:15:48
coming here to work for quite short periods of time before leaving again
1:15:53
That might bring down the overall healthy life, but I don't know how the statistics are measured
1:15:58
But do you see what I mean? Like the gene pool is invigorated and refreshed by freedom of movement
1:16:04
because it is a movement of young people on their own coming here to work and then leaving
1:16:09
But you told them all to clear off. You told them all to go back where they came from
1:16:13
So they did. And that means that they have been replaced as a consequence of Boris Johnson's policies
1:16:18
in many cases by people who won't come here to do the jobs that we won't do
1:16:22
unless they can bring their family with them, and that might involve older people. So there could be a demographic explanation for this
1:16:29
which is also down to Brexit, but not in quite as obvious a way as some of the other things are as well
1:16:34
11.35 is the time. Fiona is an Ascot. Fiona, what would you like to say
1:16:39
Hi, yeah. I'm a chartered town planner. Are there any uncharted town planners
1:16:45
Are there like any rogue town planners going around the place planning towns without the qualifications
1:16:50
Yes, definitely. Carry on. I have MRTPI after my name. Glad to hear it
1:16:56
No, I just thought I'd put the planning stance in because I used to live in London
1:17:01
I lived in Wandsworth, Borough. And I bought a flat in 2005, which is car-free
1:17:08
And it was quite sort of radical at the time to have a car-free development
1:17:13
So I was actually in newspapers and all sorts of things at the time. And then having..
1:17:18
And public transport, I think, is just fantastic in London. Yes, it is
1:17:22
It's now 20 miles an hour pretty much anywhere, and that has to have a positive impact
1:17:28
Planning as well in London is, you've got your London plan. So London is looked at regionally as well as individually by each council
1:17:41
And that doesn't happen outside of London. Well, certainly in the southeast, I'm in Berkshire
1:17:46
and most planning applications, you know, you have to provide at least three cars for a house
1:17:53
and public transport is shocking. Well, you don't know what you've got till it's gone
1:17:59
I mean, Londoners do not realise. No, absolutely. Particularly with public transport, it's unthinkable to people
1:18:05
Maybe in other cities there are some comparisons that hold water, but to people in smaller towns or even outside towns
1:18:11
public transport is an absolute lottery, whereas for almost everyone, for everybody within the M25
1:18:19
it means, because not only does it mean you leave the car at home, which makes the air that we're all breathing healthier
1:18:24
you also do a bit more walking as a consequence of using public transport because you're walking to the station or the bus stop
1:18:29
Yeah, and kids walk to school, I bet, more than they do out here. It just, that makes my blood boil
1:18:35
It should be the other way around, shouldn't it? Because the number of children I see being driven to school
1:18:41
and of course they're then driven from a very young age, and that's all they then know and expect
1:18:46
Whereas if you can walk to your local school, then that has to be good for..
1:18:50
There's a theme emerging here. Yeah, of course it is. There's a theme emerging here
1:18:56
And I'm not going to weld you to my political axe to grind
1:19:01
But the people who went mad about you, Les, and the people who go mad about Sadiq Khan
1:19:07
are the same people who went mad about, what were they called, 20-minute-somethings
1:19:12
The idea that you should be able to walk to all amenities that you need within 20 minutes
1:19:18
And that's a bad thing, according to these weirdos. Like literally 15-minute cities, they were called
1:19:23
So everything is within a 15-minute walk. And they were going nuts about that
1:19:28
I mean, I think there was a big anti-vax contingent to those people as well
1:19:32
So, you know, they like COVID. They want everyone to be more likely to die and suffer from COVID
1:19:37
They want everybody to be rejecting opportunities to walk more. I mean, they don't want clean air
1:19:44
I mean, if Vladimir Putin was influencing these people, they could hardly be more diametrically opposed to British interests, could they
1:19:52
And London is the epicentre of all of these things. Yeah. I'll tell you how we could..
1:19:58
No, no, I love it. It might also be all the halal food as well that's available in London as well
1:20:03
That's almost certainly contributing to longer life expectancy. That halal food and Shakira Law are obviously the reasons why people in London
1:20:11
can expect to live longer. I stole that joke off Habib. Fair play to you, Habib
1:20:16
I've got to stop stealing things without crediting the original contributors. 11.38 is the time
1:20:21
Eddie's in Salford. Eddie, what do you reckon? It's interesting because I think a lot of it is down to
1:20:28
the amount of disposable income that people have got. Do you? I'm living in the north
1:20:33
and I've got family in Brighton. Yeah. I go down to Brighton and it's chalk and cheese
1:20:39
The amount of disposable income there is phenomenal. Every other person has got a Volvo, not a Volvo, an Audi or something like that
1:20:47
Well, that's statistically not true. So you see more Audis in Brighton than you do in Salford
1:20:55
But, I mean, to be fair, we're not even talking about Brighton, but you're talking about the South East in general
1:21:00
Yes. Okay. The thing is, if you compare disposable incomes in different parts of the country, obviously
1:21:08
up in the north it was a very industrialised area, all those jobs
1:21:13
have gone, the average salary that people earn here now in where I live is less than
1:21:19
in 1986 because people had national pay scales which were all taken away with the union
1:21:25
but why then, so there's three questions here I mean Brighton isn't part of them
1:21:31
but I think we'll allow Brighton to be a satellite of London for the purposes
1:21:35
of the point that you're on No, listen, I was in London over the weekend, so we can go with London
1:21:39
So more disposable income, and why does that mean you live longer? You eat more healthily
1:21:46
You know, the opportunities for spending money in gyms and whatever, loads of people here can't afford it
1:21:53
Yeah, fair enough. It could be that. Brent, because it was under Thatcher that we moved away from national pay scales
1:22:06
So people get paid less in regional areas. And, but the cost of..
1:22:11
26%, 2 million Londoners live in poverty. It's got the highest poverty rate in England, mate
1:22:17
Yeah. So that doesn't work, does it? Well, I don't know... It's the highest in the country
1:22:22
The poverty rate here is the highest in the country, and the life expectancy is going up while the rest of the country goes down Yeah But don just say yeah I just completely exploded your theory No not really This is real
1:22:35
No. 26% of the population live in poverty, it's the highest poverty level in the country
1:22:40
and our healthy life expectancy is going up while everybody else's is going down, so it's not about poverty
1:22:45
Well, I think... Lots of vegans in London. Lots of vegans in Brighton
1:22:49
That could be it. Well, there's lots of vegans up in the north, and I'm one of them
1:22:54
You know, and the opportunities that you've got for eating healthily out here are completely different from now
1:23:00
Not if you're living in poverty. You've got no opportunities, really, for eating out
1:23:04
It's simply not an option. So, listen, I like, I mean, elements of what you say, but they don't answer the key questions that we're asking
1:23:10
Why the last ten years? Why has that been so key and so crucial
1:23:15
Why does the UK do so much worse than other countries that suffer from some of the same political movements that you describe
1:23:21
and why is London moving in the opposite direction from the rest of the country? Thank you, Eddie
1:23:26
Richard is in Upminster. Richard, what would you like to say? Oh, hi, James. Yeah, I think it's helpful to look through the lens
1:23:31
of this work on the blue zones. And they say that health is a result of your culture
1:23:37
your community and your connection and not just medicine. So if you look at it through the lens of
1:23:42
what has happened to us that has damaged our sense of community and shared purpose
1:23:47
you know, as human beings, that has a lot of impacts on our
1:23:50
you know our neurophysiology and our you know cortisol and all these lovely
1:23:55
chemicals we talk about so I think when you look at austerity, divisive
1:23:59
politics, you know isolation, inequality you find that that's what's going on, we have our community and our sense
1:24:05
of sharedness has been eroded. And we many many people live under the tyranny of algorithms that
1:24:13
reward content that makes them more stressed and makes them more angry and makes them more frightened
1:24:19
I mean, I don't know what population of the country is having its brains boiled
1:24:23
by Facebook or by Twitter or by TikTok, but they're certainly influencing the broader discourse
1:24:29
and the broader conversation, which will affect people who aren't even on these platforms
1:24:33
But why would London get a free pass then? Or not a free pass, but why would
1:24:37
London be moving in the opposite direction, while many people might think it was more susceptible to
1:24:41
what you described in other parts of the country? I think it's much denser
1:24:45
So it's not wealth. It's not if you're rich you can go to the gym. It's the world's inequality
1:24:50
because I think it's Kensington and Chelsea where there's a life expectancy variation
1:24:54
of 20 years between rich and poor. And that's the sort of thing you'd see in India
1:24:59
That extremist. And so London's more sort of dense in terms of social networks
1:25:04
its community. And by the way, it's diversity. I was wondering about that
1:25:09
Yeah, this is from Mark in Teesside, a bigger ethnic minority base, so you're more likely to have close-knit families
1:25:14
who eat together, home-cooked meals. clearly more healthy than other options and everybody eating them together
1:25:20
I hadn't thought of that. Do you think that could be relevant? Yeah, and actually, as you said earlier
1:25:25
people that move around more and think less have less mental health problems
1:25:30
So people in London are actually moving around more and probably, you know, don't have the cars
1:25:35
So look at it through the lens of what is it that affects our sense of community and shared purpose
1:25:41
And you kind of get pretty close to the answer, I think. Yeah, certainly. One of the big parts of the answer, one of the bigger jigsaw pieces
1:25:47
It's extraordinary to think how completely at odds with the overriding discourse this is
1:25:55
You know, whether you're looking at social media or whether you're looking at traditional media. I think we'll do a quick unhinged headline, actually, because I mentioned the abuse that Sadiq Khan receives
1:26:03
despite now being the thrice elected mayor of the only part of this country where healthy life expectancy is going up
1:26:10
but here's very much a qualification or a contender for Unhinged Headline
1:26:17
I read this headline twice before I understood what was going on
1:26:21
Child abuse charity attacks Khan for allowing naked bike ride Okay, point one, why Khan
1:26:29
Why not Mayor of London or Sadiq or Sadiq Khan? Can't open a right wing newspaper these days
1:26:35
without seeing the word Kemi in a headline without any accompanying Badenock
1:26:39
So there's a dehumanising element to it. There's a he is the enemy element to this headline
1:26:44
And then you think, what's he got to do with naked bike rides? I'm pretty sure that in London, where healthy life expectancy is going up
1:26:53
compared to the rest of the country while it's going down, I'm pretty sure this bike ride has been running for over two decades
1:26:59
I remember it running when Boris Johnson was... I think we did jokes on the programme about hoping he didn't join in
1:27:05
because nobody would want to see that. So there's a headline here claiming that there is a naked bike ride
1:27:12
that is Sadiq Khan's fault, and they've managed to get the word child abuse into the headline as well
1:27:18
And then I read the story, and I was right. The annual bike ride through the capital has been running since 2004
1:27:26
The decision on whether or not to allow it is taken by the Metropolitan Police
1:27:32
not the Mayor of London. And the desperation that the Daily Telegraph had to get the words child abuse, khan and naked into a headline isn't just unhinged, it's positively perverted
1:27:44
But thank goodness nobody respectable would fall into that particular trap. There is, though, today's..
1:27:51
Unhinged Headline. It's 11.46, Simon Marks is next. James O'Brien on LBC
1:27:58
You know what a miserable git I can be sometimes. I like to think I'm a more mellow character than I was when we first met
1:28:05
but I do occasionally have little bugbears. And this was one of them until suddenly it wasn't
1:28:11
When we started doing the catch-up service, when was that, Keith, roughly? When did we start doing the listen back and you could listen to the show
1:28:16
and rewind live radio and all of that sort of malarkey? And I started getting messages from people who were listening an hour ago
1:28:22
And they'd say, oh, I'm listening on catch-up, but... And I'm like, why do you think I want to know what your reaction was
1:28:27
to something that happened an hour ago that I'm not talking about anymore? What is wrong with you
1:28:32
But then oddly, as time has passed, I've come to quite enjoy these messages from the past
1:28:36
And Tom has just sent me one. He says, I'm listening on behind on today's show now, James
1:28:41
So you're sort of automatically thinking, why are you getting in touch with me to contribute to a conversation that's ended
1:28:46
But then I realise it's about connection and community, kindness and family
1:28:51
Tom wants me to know what he thinks. He says, I think Starmer wants the king to be insulted
1:28:56
This will force the media and his opposition in the UK to rally around him and label Trump as an enemy
1:29:02
This will help Starmer move towards the EU and away from the USA
1:29:06
and it will force Farage, etc., to break away from Trump or to be seen as not patriotic
1:29:11
So they will lose some of their cards. I think in a sane universe, I'd agree with that
1:29:16
But it's not a sane universe. And, of course, things got even more troubling
1:29:20
over the course of this weekend with events in Washington at the Press Gala
1:29:25
which is one of the reasons why Simon Marks joins us. um i i mean i think we've used the word extraordinary 670,000 times when discussing
1:29:34
events in the united states of america in the last 18 months but this is one of those occasions
1:29:38
when there is no other word really extraordinary and rather horrible simon yes and i think perhaps
1:29:45
in a bizarre way james inevitable i mean given what we now know about the extraordinarily lax
1:29:53
security that was in place around that Hilton Hotel on Saturday night. I mean, and in
1:29:59
way also lucky that something far worse did not occur because you have to remember that at that
1:30:08
event on Saturday night you basically had the entire line of succession and the president all
1:30:15
in a basement ballroom of a massive concrete structure above them and it is already apparent
1:30:24
that the suspect in this case who's going to be making his first court appearance here
1:30:29
a little bit later today, had absolutely no difficulty whatsoever bringing his weapons
1:30:36
into that hotel a little bit earlier in the week, booking a room in the hotel after travelling
1:30:41
from California to Washington DC via Chicago. And in the words of the Wall Street Journal
1:30:51
which has done an extraordinary job overnight of really probing what was taking place security-wise
1:30:58
at that hotel, it was easier to get into the dinner than many big sports events and concert venues
1:31:05
They also quote Jason Pack, a former FBI official, who says that the suspect didn't beat the security
1:31:13
plan the night of the dinner. He beat it the day he made the hotel reservation, which is just an
1:31:21
absolutely staggering revelation. Now, the suspect, clearly, from everything that we have read about
1:31:26
him and everything that we are learning hour after hour, his own writings that were apparently sent
1:31:32
to family members, to his employers, left in the hotel room, some of them clearly indicate a deeply
1:31:41
troubled individual who was critical of the Trump administration, who made claims against the Trump
1:31:49
administration accusing some of its senior figures of sexual crimes but and then of course
1:31:56
made that extraordinary effort to charge through the metal detectors that were the only metal
1:32:02
detectors in place and were only being used to screen people who were trying to get to the dinner
1:32:08
in the basement that at the time was already underway with 2,000 people there. He never stood
1:32:13
a chance of getting off the ground floor of the hotel. He never stood a chance of getting to the
1:32:17
ballroom. But it is also apparent from the lax security that existed that a much more coordinated
1:32:26
planned and well-orchestrated effort to attack that hotel at a time when America has no shortage
1:32:34
of enemies on the world stage and is at war could have potentially wiped out the president
1:32:42
the vice president, the speaker of the House of Representatives and two of the next people out
1:32:47
of the first six people in that line of succession. So there are major questions here. And, you know
1:32:53
this idea that security was reviewed for the royal visit, well, of course it was. And President Trump
1:32:58
is saying, well, but it's all going to be OK because they're coming to the White House and
1:33:02
that's the most secure facility in the city. And oh, and by the way, this underscores the need for
1:33:07
us to build the ballroom doesn't, of course, underscore the need for us as a country to engage
1:33:11
in any serious commentary or discussion about gun control, we immediately go to, we need to build the ballroom
1:33:18
because it's going to be more secure than the Hilton Hotel up the road
1:33:22
I mean, that only goes so far, given the public engagements outside the White House that the King and Queen will be engaging in
1:33:29
here in Washington DC, in New York, in Virginia, and then back in Washington between now and Thursday
1:33:36
So massive questions arising out of what took place on Saturday night
1:33:41
are there any answers? I mean, I've been struck you may have been across this already
1:33:46
but as I was reading into the events of Saturday night and of course links present themselves to other reports
1:33:52
and I hadn't realised how widespread and how deep the conviction was
1:33:57
that the last assassination attempt on Donald Trump was some sort of false flag
1:34:01
or some sort of conspiracy theory that's really taken hold in MAGA circles
1:34:06
that's not, I mean, one wouldn't expect it necessarily from liberals or critics of Donald Trump
1:34:11
but his own fan base seemed to believe increasingly that that was some sort of fake
1:34:16
This is more grist to the conspiracy theory mill, isn't it? Oh, I think we are going to look back on this event over the weekend
1:34:25
at the point at which the conspiracy theory mill in this country
1:34:30
went completely mainstream. I mean, if you take a look at the hundreds
1:34:35
possibly by now this morning, thousands of comments, that have been attached to our own YouTube channel, the LBC official YouTube channel
1:34:44
and some of the coverage that we provided over the weekend of the attack
1:34:48
the attempted attack on that Hilton Hotel, and therefore on the dinner down in the basement
1:34:54
I mean, you'd be hard-pressed to find a single person who has added a comment
1:34:59
to that YouTube channel that believes that this was anything other than a hoax
1:35:05
Now, in order to believe that it was a hoax, you also have to believe that in some way it was in President Trump's interest to throw the Klieg lights back on the issue of Jeffrey Epstein
1:35:19
Because in the writings of this gunman, he talks about his outrage at policies put in place by the White House and alludes to allegations of sexual misconduct, saying he is no longer willing to allow a traitor to coat my hands with his crimes
1:35:39
He doesn't use Donald Trump's name. But take a listen to what happened on CBS 60 Minutes last night when Donald Trump was being interviewed by Nora O'Donnell
1:35:48
He also wrote this. I'm no longer willing to permit a pedophile, rapist and traitor to coat my hands with his crimes
1:35:56
What's your reaction? Well, I was waiting for you to read that because I knew you would because you're you're you're horrible people
1:36:02
Horrible people. Yeah, he did write that. I'm not a rapist. I didn't rape anybody
1:36:09
Oh, you think he was referring to you? Excuse me. I'm not a pedophile
1:36:13
You read that crap from some sick person. I got associated with stuff that has nothing to do with me
1:36:23
I was totally exonerated. Your friends on the other side of the plate are the ones that were involved with, let's say, Epstein or other things
1:36:33
But I said to myself, you know, I'll do this interview and they'll probably I read the manifesto
1:36:39
You know, he's a sick person. But you should be ashamed of yourself reading that because I'm not any of those things
1:36:46
Mr. President, these are the gunman's words. Excuse me. You shouldn't be reading that on 60 Minutes
1:36:52
You're a disgrace. But go ahead. Let's finish the interview. Now, if you believe that this whole thing was a hoax, you also have to believe that on the eve of the king and queen arriving in the UK, in the United States
1:37:05
President Trump wanted to find himself on television denying that he is a rapist or a
1:37:11
pedophile. And that is, even for a conspiracy theorist, that's a massive stretch. But you're
1:37:17
absolutely right to talk about the revival of conversation about what happened in Butler
1:37:22
Pennsylvania that first assassination attempt Even Tucker Carlson and his brother in that podcast where Tucker Carlson breaks entirely with Donald Trump found themselves discussing the Butler assassination attempt and suggesting that it needs another look
1:37:40
intimating that perhaps it was not what it was portrayed to be at the time
1:37:46
And the irony is of course that Trump has done more than anybody to create this ecosystem where conspiracy theories can flourish
1:37:54
He still lies through his teeth about the results of the election that Joe Biden won
1:37:59
Those lies seem to be coming back into the light again now. And he continues to spread all sorts of nonsense and conspiracy theories about all sorts of people
1:38:07
So, I mean, it's ironic, but it's also dangerous. Yes, very dangerous
1:38:13
I mean, he is clearly hoist on his own petard at this point because people across the political spectrum
1:38:18
And remember, the conspiracy theorists, if you drew a Venn diagram between MAGA supporters and conspiracy theorists, you'd find quite an intersection there
1:38:27
But now conspiracy theories are being embraced by Donald Trump's critics, partly on the basis that, well, you know, you put conspiracy theories into the public domain
1:38:36
What's source for the goose is source for the gander. But what this really means, ultimately, is that those commentators out there who say, even now, we're going to view the two terms that President Trump spent in office as an aberration
1:38:53
And that in some fashion, once this is all over, America is going to snap back to some semblance of normalcy
1:39:01
That is going to be very difficult in a post-truth country, which this already largely was, where now conspiracy theories fuelled by the ability of AI to create instant images as people were doing on Saturday night after the dinner
1:39:20
Entirely false storylines being promoted by the use of AI created videos
1:39:26
It takes the country down an unbelievably dangerous path. And he has shown the way
1:39:31
I mean, he has kicked those doors down through which the entire country now passes
1:39:35
as you point out, Simon, without any guarantees of an easy return to how things were before
1:39:40
And no doubt we'll be speaking to you. The best thing that can happen in the context of the Royal Visit is nothing, right
1:39:44
The best thing that can happen is I talk to you tomorrow or on Wednesday and say, any big events, anything notable
1:39:49
Has he done a Pearl Harbour? Has he done a Zelensky? And you just go, no, it's all gone off quite calmly, really
1:39:56
The only way this is a win over the next four days is if it is rancor-free and President Trump does not talk to
1:40:05
or is not goaded into talking to some of the propagandists here
1:40:12
many of whom have White House press passes, who will constantly be seeking to ask him
1:40:18
whether he'd like to take a pop at the Prime Minister while the King is on American soil
1:40:22
Or his own son. Or Harry. They might, because they brought Harry into it recently as well
1:40:27
Absolutely. Yes, exactly. Wow. So, Simon Marks there, almost wishing that he doesn't have anything to report on in the course of the next four days in Washington, D.C
1:40:37
I'm torn. Good for business, bad for the soul. It's 12.02. James O'Brien on LBC
1:40:44
Six minutes after 12 is the time. And a conversation next that we could have had towards the end of last week, but we didn't
1:40:53
And part of the reason for that was because I wasn't quite sure what route into this story to take
1:41:02
And I got a text earlier today that speaks to precisely that point
1:41:08
Is it just me, James, that is very extremely alarmed by what has been happening in Epsom
1:41:14
In a middle-class area of Epsom, we have had riots over more fake news of an immigrant gang raping a woman
1:41:21
A man has been convicted of raping a Sikh woman after mistaking her for a Muslim woman
1:41:26
Our direction of travel has gone so far that under a future Nigel Farage government
1:41:31
the future of Muslims will no longer be in the UK. I'm actively trying to leave this country now with my family
1:41:39
My cousin's sister is moving to Qatar. She no longer feels safe here
1:41:46
And the reason for this is quite possibly something that you will not be aware of
1:41:52
And I find that extraordinary. I don't know where you get your news from
1:41:57
but if you rely upon me for it, you won't be aware of this
1:42:01
Despite the fact that I wasn't... The riots that my texter is referring to
1:42:07
I felt were almost certainly inappropriate given that the police do not deliberately keep information
1:42:15
from raging mobs for fear of maligning people of colour or immigrants. It's one of the worst
1:42:21
racist lies that's out there. If we learned anything from the hideous
1:42:24
reaction to the hideous murders in Southport, it was that some deeply dangerous and despicable
1:42:31
people will spread all manner of lies on social media if they think that it will help
1:42:36
inflame a mob. You had Nigel Farage treating the serial criminal and
1:42:42
race provocateur... Actually, I forget who he was treating with. No, it wasn't, was it? It was the other fellow. It was the
1:42:48
alleged rapist, Andrew Tate, was being cited as a reliable source by Nigel Farage in the process of
1:42:54
stoking up the levels of anger and hatred that saw a Nigel Farage fan call for people to be burnt
1:43:00
in their beds in a hotel. Entirely innocent people. This is what we have created. This is where the
1:43:08
algorithms are. That Epsom story that my texter refers to prompted two outbreaks of rioting
1:43:18
in Epsom, and only towards the end of last week did it emerge that no crime had been committed
1:43:25
at all. Not that no crime had been committed by asylum seekers, or no crime had been committed by
1:43:33
immigrants, or no crime had been committed by Muslims, but no crime had been committed at all
1:43:39
it is as if not just that we learned nothing from the Farage riots
1:43:48
in the aftermath of the Southport murders but it is almost as if some people did learn
1:43:52
that there is money to be made or attention to be accrued or trouble to be caused
1:43:58
by acting upon misinformation or misinterpretation people taking to the streets of our country
1:44:06
to riot and to hurl abuse and projectiles at police officers because social media clowns have created a lie
1:44:17
that the police are deliberately covering something up. Three days after the initial police appeal for information
1:44:28
this is quite an extraordinary state of affairs. The idea that people had been silenced under threat of arrest
1:44:36
is a lie that was perpetrated on social media. The idea that there had been some sort of shady establishment cover-up
1:44:43
is a lie that had been perpetrated on social media. The idea that the police were keeping the ethnicity of the suspects
1:44:52
from the public for fear of I don know what riots was a lie that was perpetrated by racist liars on social media The idea that refugees were involved was a lie perpetrated by racist liars on social media
1:45:08
The idea that migrants were suspected or had been identified by the victim was a lie perpetrated by liars and racists on social media
1:45:19
And of course, when the riots happened, you got the usual hand-wringing from people
1:45:23
who would once have thought twice about doing this sort of thing about the legitimate concerns of people
1:45:29
If you had to guess which politicians stuck their oar in, despite the fact that it was all a lie
1:45:34
perpetrated by racist liars on social media, you would probably put honest Bob Jenrick
1:45:41
fairly near the top of the list, and you'd be absolutely bloody right
1:45:44
because what was really confusing about this story for me and the reason why i chose not to cover it
1:45:53
at the time was because it seemed to all hinge upon a belief that the police would act
1:45:58
in a disgraceful and dishonest fashion that the police were asking for the public's help in
1:46:05
identifying the perpetrators of an alleged an alleged crime while simultaneously lying about
1:46:14
what they already knew about the perpetrators of an alleged crime. It seemed to me to be a conspiracy theory
1:46:20
of such boneheaded blatancy that I couldn't believe anybody took either the claims
1:46:26
or the riots seriously. But I forgot where I live. I live in Brexit Britain
1:46:31
I live in a country where Nigel Farage is leading the national opinion polls
1:46:36
prior to the next general election. I live in a country where the racist liars
1:46:42
have taken over the asylum. particularly on social media. I live in a country where the woman who calls for people
1:46:49
to be burned alive in hotels ends up being greeted on the stage
1:46:55
at the Reform UK party conference like some sort of conquering heroine
1:46:59
That's the country that we live in. So when it turns out that the poor woman involved in these allegations
1:47:05
was not happily a victim of any crime, it gets approximately 4% of the coverage
1:47:14
that the racist lies accompanying the original story received. I don't know how you turn this oil tank around
1:47:26
I wasn't even sure that we were going to talk about it today until A, I got that text
1:47:30
and B, Simon Marks reminded us that even when the perpetrators of conspiracy theories and lies
1:47:35
have moved on, we are left with the ecosystem that they have created
1:47:41
Donald Trump finds himself now surrounded by former admirers and supporters who are convinced that he is staging his own assassination attempts
1:47:48
because he has killed truth. He has broken objective reality. He has deployed phrases like fake news or alternative facts
1:47:56
to describe the truth. So how can you possibly blame his acolytes, admirers, observers and supporters
1:48:05
for choosing what is true and what is not, for making reality a matter of choice
1:48:10
And if you are a racist liar and you've turned it into a lucrative online career
1:48:15
you don't care what's true or not. You certainly don't care about this poor woman in Epsom
1:48:19
You care only about how you can maximise your attention and your income by spreading racist lies
1:48:29
And, um, that's where we find ourselves today. so the question and i think the right way a couple of articles i'd recommend that you read
1:48:40
uh ian birrell writing in the eye paper under the headline the epsom riots are a dark warning of
1:48:46
where britain is headed because as he correctly points out these racist liars call themselves
1:48:51
patriots even as they tear up street furniture and attack the police on the streets of our country
1:48:56
and the bbc put a very detailed account of events together under the headline the crime that never
1:49:01
happened and sparked a rage-bait frenzy. And people like Honest Bob Jenrick
1:49:08
and some broadcasters and journalists should know better than to cover these events
1:49:12
as if they are being undertaken in good faith. The most cursory research on this case
1:49:18
would just have put a big enough question mark in your mind for you to think that this isn't..
1:49:23
And then you put a call in to the police, you get a steer from the police on what's going on
1:49:27
and either you join the conspiracy theorists and racist liars in believing
1:49:31
that the police are keeping the truth from the people, or you realise that this is a story
1:49:36
that you probably shouldn't be allowing the tail to wag the dog
1:49:41
the racist lying tail to wag the dog of media coverage. So, I want you to talk to me now
1:49:52
about the decision of the British police to announce, declare, decide
1:50:03
that it would reveal the ethnicity of suspects in criminal cases. Because I don't know what to think about that
1:50:16
and some of the police officers who have explained why it is a good idea have seemed to me to be very persuasive
1:50:23
Very persuasive indeed. And yet, for me, this story cuts both ways
1:50:31
This story is either proof that it's a good idea or proof that it's a bad idea
1:50:35
And I want a little bit of help from you this morning in identifying which one it is
1:50:42
Which one it is. Because if you are expecting the ethnicity to be released and then it isn't
1:50:50
the racist liars who populate the social media platforms that create these sort of
1:50:57
scenarios, whether with or without the help of people like Nigel Farage, who was instrumental
1:51:03
of course, in the Southport riots, but I think it was his sort of weird little mini-me
1:51:08
Honest Bob Jenrick, who piled in on this one, when no crime at all had been committed, let alone a
1:51:14
crime that was being attributed to a Muslim small boat migrant when in fact it was a Welsh-born
1:51:20
Christian. I still don't know whether it's a good idea or not for the police to have announced that
1:51:28
they would, because what does it do if it's a white rapist? Do these people calm down
1:51:36
If some poor woman were to be raped by a white man and they are preparing to man the barricades
1:51:43
at the first report of the rape, and then the police reveal that the person in custody is white
1:51:48
They all pack up and go home. I mean, I'm right, aren't I? That's what happened
1:51:54
That's what this story is about. That's what this story proves. There would be no riots on the streets of Epsom
1:52:00
over sexual assaults that had taken place in the way that almost all sexual assaults do
1:52:07
in the home perpetrated by a man known to the victim. There'd be no riots about that
1:52:14
I don't know if there were any riots about the other story that my texter referred to
1:52:17
about the poor woman, the poor Sikh woman, whose rapist was convicted last week
1:52:23
who literally and deliberately and openly raped her because he thought she was a Muslim I don know if it helps or not to have this new policy in place
1:52:37
where the ethnicity is announced, because I'm a very weird creature in 2026 in Brexit Britain
1:52:42
is that I don't feel differently when a woman is raped or when a child is abused according to the colour of the perpetrator
1:52:51
I don't get angrier or sadder or more disgusted when they're brown or black or white or purple than I do when they're not
1:52:59
I don't sit here and hear the story of a disgusting crime being perpetrated against an innocent victim and think to myself
1:53:05
oh, I wonder what colour the criminal is. Or I wonder how long they've lived in this country or I wonder whether they were born here or not
1:53:14
it doesn't affect my heartbreak my disgust and my fear to learn that the perpetrator
1:53:22
looks or doesn't look like me and I don't think the average victim
1:53:27
cares particularly either I don't know and I wouldn't deign to speak for them
1:53:35
but it seems to me unlikely so two questions would these riots
1:53:43
we could call them the generic riots, I suppose, as a successor to the Farage riots
1:53:48
that followed the Southport racist lies. Would these riots have happened if the police were not committed
1:53:57
to revealing the ethnicity of suspects? I mean, the problem is you're imputing
1:54:02
or you're talking about very, very hard of thinking people in a way that presumes that they're capable of thinking
1:54:11
because what the police have said they will do is reveal whether somebody who has been arrested
1:54:15
or somebody who is in custody is of a certain ethnicity. Actually, let's go back a little bit further
1:54:22
What is that designed to achieve? 0345 60 60 973. What is that designed to achieve
1:54:36
Hit the numbers now, you will get through. Is it the right thing to do
1:54:42
I mean, you're probably going to answer the second question in the course of answering the first question, aren't you
1:54:47
And all of this contingent upon the idea that these riots are a direct consequence of the policy
1:55:02
The BBC report looks at some of the actors on social media
1:55:06
sharing clips of the protests and claiming all of Britain backs these patriots
1:55:10
half a million users saw that it's an illustration of how these posts are prioritized by some
1:55:17
algorithms so that the accounts posting them who were discovered recently are usually not in this
1:55:21
country anyway are making money from what is best described as stochastic terrorism online
1:55:28
misinformation resulting in offline harm and violence anti-immigration misinformation in particular has an increasingly high chance of turning violent so does this give us pause on
1:55:43
the question of whether it is the right thing to do and in order to answer that question we have to
1:55:50
go back to the the why the why of it is it because i is it pandering to racist liars to give them
1:56:00
what they want in the sense of oh yes this suspect is actually brown-skinned or this suspect is
1:56:06
actually black or brown or Muslim or something. Therefore, we are going to react differently
1:56:12
What role does the information play? Because it could have a diffusing role, but I don't see how
1:56:20
If they'd come out with the Southport killing, the murderer in Southport, whose name I won't
1:56:26
allow to pass my lips on this programme, but if they'd come out and said, imagine, because
1:56:32
I said to you at the time, what if a crime is committed
1:56:36
And they are. Asylum seekers commit crimes. Capricorns commit crimes. Pisces people commit crimes
1:56:41
Men commit crimes. Women commit crimes. Manchester United supporters commit crimes. Kidder Minister Harrier supporters commit crimes
1:56:48
Asylum seekers commit crimes. People who can trace their lineage in this country back to the Doomsday Book commit crimes
1:56:53
Some of those crimes are hideous. So if they'd come out in the aftermath of the killings in Southport, those poor little girls
1:57:00
and said, yes, actually, it is an asylum seeker, and he did arrive in Dover on a small boat last Tuesday
1:57:08
would the riots have become more or less likely to happen? Because it's possible that they would have become less likely
1:57:15
and this is where I want you to help me out. Because you can sit here and say you're appeasing racist liars
1:57:19
you're responding to online misinformation, you're making everything more dangerous. But usually, if the police had come out and said
1:57:28
it is an asylum seeker who had committed this crime, then the racist liars making money online
1:57:34
would have had to pack up and go home because they couldn't claim that they were being lied to
1:57:39
or they couldn't claim that they were being misled. But then, you see, you get a story like this
1:57:48
where a young woman has, I mean, according to the police, a young woman has sustained a serious head injury
1:57:57
and made a report of a crime that never actually happened. Something that was established fairly quickly
1:58:02
by dint of CCTV and door knocking and investigating and doing all the things that you expect the police
1:58:10
for all their flaws to do, unless you are a racist liar
1:58:14
perfectly prepared to malign the police in pursuit of money and status online
1:58:20
which spills over quickly into violence and abuse on the streets of our country
1:58:25
if the police haven't got any suspects in mind and they haven't got good descriptions
1:58:31
then they can't give them to the public and the Stephen Yaxley-Lennon fans pop up on social media
1:58:37
claiming that we're being lied to. So what's the least bad option here
1:58:48
If you release the ethnicity of suspects, you quell Farage riots, But if you can't release the ethnicity of subjects, you cause generic riots
1:59:01
Have I got that right? Does that sound right to you? If the police reveal ethnicity
1:59:11
then riots like the ones prompted by Nigel Farage and others after Southport are less likely to happen
1:59:19
But if you can't reveal ethnicity, but the public expects you to
1:59:23
but you genuinely can't, as happened in this case, then riots like the ones prompted by Honest Bob Jenrick
1:59:28
and others on this occasion become perhaps inevitable. 0345 6060 973 is the number you need
1:59:38
Should the police be doing this and why? Remind me why they are doing it
1:59:44
It's 12.25. Good Lord, I didn't realise I had so much to say about that. Apologies
1:59:48
James O'Brien on LBC. 26 minutes after 12 is the time. It's an extraordinary state of affairs, isn't it
1:59:57
That we can have riots on our streets. that are effectively stoked or encouraged by prominent politicians
2:00:05
and reported in good faith by prominent broadcasters and journalists, but which are built upon racist lies
2:00:11
perpetrated online about a crime that never even existed. I'll double-check Honest Bob Jenrick's contribution to this discourse
2:00:20
before I read it to you, and I'll leave you to decide whether or not he's apologised
2:00:25
or withdrawn the comments he made at the time. but it seems to me that the decision of the police
2:00:30
to speak of the ethnicity of suspects in cases is questionable
2:00:40
It might be the right thing to do but it might be the wrong thing to do
2:00:44
and I want you to tell me which of those two you think it is. Robin is in Hertford
2:00:48
Robin, what would you like to say? Hi James, how are you doing? I don't like this story
2:00:52
Crazy times, eh? Yes, it is crazy times but I don't know that... Anyway, you tell me why you rang in
2:00:58
I rang in because, I mean, this sort of kind of incenses me
2:01:02
and it just makes me really, really sad. Yes. And where we got to
2:01:06
I mean, you know, purely this, I honestly believe this is a thing or a move by the police
2:01:10
to try and diffuse sort of Southport or Epsom, these situations in the hope of trying to do that
2:01:17
But we can prove to you that we're not keeping information from you
2:01:21
by giving you this information. but the people accusing you of keeping information from them
2:01:27
are not good faith actors. I know, but the thing is that you don't ask
2:01:34
would it carry on if it was a group of... And I think, sadly, it would
2:01:39
I mean, maybe not on the same sort of scale. I mean, if people feel..
2:01:43
Because the social media starts off by saying, oh, look, it's probably asylum seekers, but they're lying to you
2:01:48
So that's where people get hit up and all the usual racists come out, blah, blah, blah, blah
2:01:54
But if they were to say, well, look, it is an asylum seeker, you probably still would get demonstrations
2:01:59
but maybe less heated, I don't know. And it's really sad, to be honest
2:02:03
I mean, I think that... So let's spend a moment, if we must
2:02:09
in the mind of that Lucy Connolly woman who called for the hotels to be set fire to
2:02:13
despite the fact that nobody believed anybody in those hotels had been responsible for any crime
2:02:18
So if the police in the northwest had come out and said the man under arrest is an asylum seeker and was arrested at a repurposed hotel where he'd been staying, would those people become more or less likely to call for hotels to be set fire
2:02:37
So would we have collective punishment and pogroms? I think less likely
2:02:41
Yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, yeah, but the problem is I'm not sure either
2:02:46
And I think this is just a desperate measure by, you know, the police or the authorities to see it
2:02:52
By doing this, they can lower the temperature somewhat. But I think it's outrageous, quite frankly
2:02:56
And I think they should just put their foot down and go, no. And if these riots occur, I mean, just go in and batter these people, quite frankly
2:03:02
You know, I mean, it's like they're breaking the law, aren't they? Well, I mean, the police turn up with their riot shields and get bottles and what have you thrown at them for their trouble
2:03:11
while all they are doing is trying to contain riots that have been caused by online lies
2:03:16
and exacerbated by prominent politicians and members of my position. I know, but look at the online sphere or whatever you want to call it
2:03:26
I mean, it's impossible to deal with these people, isn't it? It's impossible to stop this
2:03:30
You see, that's the point, isn't it? I don't know. So best case scenario is not going to be peace on our streets
2:03:36
It is going to be a dialing down or a diminution of the number of violent outbreaks
2:03:42
So every time a terrible crime is reported, whether it actually happened or not
2:03:47
the police are required to confirm or deny that it was asylum seekers
2:03:51
If you're unfortunate enough to be the victim of sexual abuse or violence or, God forbid
2:03:56
rape that has been committed by somebody who's definitely not an asylum seeker, unlucky
2:04:01
You're just not going to get the attention, the coverage, the outrage that other people will get
2:04:07
That's the world that has been created by these people. But what is the most likely path to peaceful streets
2:04:14
Having a rule in place that will usually see the nationality or ethnicity of the suspect on arrest revealed or not
2:04:25
Because this particular case, no one had been arrested. Everybody's lying. Everybody's lying
2:04:31
There's not a scintilla of truth here that they've built upon to create a lie
2:04:36
They have just lied from the start. A woman alleges a gang rape
2:04:43
Everything that followed is lies. And it turns out that the poor woman in the first place
2:04:48
wasn't telling the truth. So, why this rule? And has it made things better or worse
2:04:55
given that we've now seen a generic riot, which we set on the scales opposite the Farage riots
2:04:59
that we saw after Southport. 12.31 is the time. Matt Hewitt is here now with your headlines
2:05:04
James O'Brien on LBC. 34 is the time. Here it is. This is Honest Bob Jenrick
2:05:09
Surrey police must share what they can about the horrific rape in Epsom last weekend
2:05:15
After the Southport attack, the authorities were silent. Nigel Farage and myself called this out
2:05:20
as did Jonathan Hall, KC. That's not actually a fully accurate representation
2:05:24
of what Jonathan Hall, KC, said and did at the time, but he's not called Honest Bob Jenrick for nothing
2:05:29
Their silence made a bad situation worse. In light of this, police guidance on information sharing was updated
2:05:37
Disinformation, this is a quote, and incorrect narratives can take hold in a vacuum
2:05:41
It is good police work for us to fill this vacuum, end quotes. People also have a right to know what's happened in their area
2:05:47
and sharing information can only help with any investigation. Surrey Police must communicate ASAP
2:05:53
The British people deserve transparency. Barely a cigarette paper between him and the serial jailbird Stephen Yaxley-Lennon
2:06:02
who prefers to be known as Tommy Robinson. He started praising patriots for demanding answers in wake of what he called
2:06:08
deafening silence from police, claiming that Epsom locals had destroyed a suspected property
2:06:15
quotes, used for housing unvetted fighting age invaders at the taxpayers' expense
2:06:22
All nonsense. Honest Bob Jenrick is a member of Parliament he's a former Conservative
2:06:30
and it is indeed the Conservative Police and Crime Commissioner for Surrey
2:06:34
Lisa Townsend who revealed that the investigation conducted by the police was exemplary and fast in the face of disinformation
2:06:41
spread by people like her former party colleague Honest Bob Jenrick her words, quotes, not about him specifically I don't think
2:06:49
who really should have known an awful lot better this is the point, they do know better
2:06:53
and she concluded this is the Surrey Police and Crime Commissioner and of course that is what caused the riots
2:07:02
So the police cannot reveal any identifying characteristics about any suspects because there wasn any crime but nobody knows that until the investigation has been completed
2:07:11
Yaxley-Lennon acolytes and Nigel Farage fans pop up in social media spaces to spread racist lies
2:07:19
And I just don't know whether the police's policy of revealing the ethnicity of people under arrest is going to make things better or worse
2:07:29
Ranjit is in Croydon. Ranjit, what would you like to say? hey James
2:07:34
hope you're okay I'm good I just wanted to mention I think this is
2:07:39
this is a general lack of trust I think probably between the public and government agencies
2:07:46
including I suppose especially the police and I think it runs across
2:07:50
the spectrum in terms of I think there was a lack of transparency
2:07:54
in terms of what happened in Rotterdam for example as to into the rape cases
2:07:58
which is very very or unfortunately horrendous really. And there was a perception that certain things were not investigated
2:08:06
based on ethnicity, and that got publicized hugely, and I think a lot of government agencies were involved in there
2:08:15
social services, the police, possibly some politicians, we don't know. But because of it, I think there's a very
2:08:22
I think there is now a mistrust that certain attendees or certain people are not investigated correctly
2:08:27
but I'd like to add there's also a different element to it in terms of it's all the way around
2:08:32
as well for example I think there was a Manchester airport attack where the police were not trusted
2:08:37
even though they were the ones who were attacked and there was at least a social media right as such
2:08:42
where the police were kind of had to publish eyes as to what really happened completely
2:08:47
but none of your examples involve non none of your examples involve white perpetrators
2:08:54
There is. So, for example, I think there's a Wimbledon car accident recently
2:08:58
No, that's still very much under investigation and fits into a completely different category, I think, of event
2:09:08
And as I say, it's still very much a live case. The kind of people who are taking to the streets of Epsom
2:09:15
I don't think are particularly exercised or disgusted by crimes that are not committed by suspected asylum seekers or immigrants
2:09:26
I'm not aware, Ranjit, of any sort of online lynch mob being marshaled to go after people that look like me
2:09:36
I agree. I agree. And I think it's just a reflection of what's happening overall
2:09:40
and I completely agree that there should be no ethnic element at all which shouldn't be revealed, there's no need
2:09:45
as long as there is a fair investigation. I think it's just a point that I think there's a mistrust
2:09:51
and that's possibly why... And it's being carefully... Yeah, and it might have..
2:09:55
Its beginnings might be justified but it gets embellished and exaggerated for political reasons
2:10:02
by precisely the sort of people that we're discussing today. In the great scheme of things, Dan
2:10:08
when you take a step back from recent events in Epsom or historic events in other English towns
2:10:17
does the change of policy from the police to specifically consider disclosing the nationality
2:10:24
and or ethnicity of a suspect under arrest, does it turn the temperature of the country up or down
2:10:32
It would, based on current events, I think it would probably bring the temperature down
2:10:36
Yeah, I think you might be right. But I don't like it. As a banking person, in fact, I'm completely against this policy
2:10:43
but I can see the practical reasons as to why the police are doing it at the same time
2:10:47
Yeah, because the space that is created by the absence of information
2:10:51
allows misinformation to flourish. That is it. But then what we saw in Epsom, this is why it's such an interesting story
2:10:59
what we saw in Epsom was when there genuinely is no information
2:11:04
there is genuinely no information that also creates a vacuum into which the racist liars
2:11:09
can move and they take advantage of the situation and them and bring in more misinformation i think
2:11:16
is as you mentioned yeah and so is it is a good thing or a bad thing to do this and i still think
2:11:23
on reflection it might be a good thing but for very very bad reasons because there are people
2:11:28
who are genuinely more concerned or professed to be much more upset about any crime
2:11:35
particularly these types of crime, when they are committed by people of one background
2:11:40
and not as outraged or upset or as hurt when they are committed by people of other backgrounds
2:11:46
12.42 is the time very nearly. Aggie Shambray joining us in the next part of the programme
2:11:51
to look back on the speech that Keir Starmer has given today, which some of you clearly were listening to when you should have been listening to me
2:11:57
because it appears to have been quite warmly received in some quarters, but we will soon see
2:12:03
Neil is in Rushcliffe. Neil, what would you like to say? Hi, James
2:12:08
I think the policy, unfortunately, is probably potentially the worst of all worlds
2:12:13
My recollection is that it was introduced almost as a sort of knee-jerk response
2:12:18
in response to Southport around that time. And although you could argue, as you say
2:12:25
find a balance between is it going to decrease or increase tensions and I think the answer there is
2:12:30
probably sometimes it could decrease and sometimes it could potentially increase. The underlying issue though I think unfortunately is that because the government doesn't share
2:12:40
information through a matter of policy and a matter of the way I guess that we do politics
2:12:45
on these sorts of areas that people are concerned about and when I say people I'm not just talking
2:12:51
about, if you like, a relatively small number of out-and-out racists who, as you say, will take any opportunity to highlight this
2:13:01
But people, myself included, and, you know, I'm a relatively educated person
2:13:06
are concerned about what crime, I guess, actually looks like in all its forms in the country
2:13:13
And in periods like we've had where there has been a lot of societal change
2:13:19
over a relatively short period of time, I think there are probably quite a lot of people who would like to know with some certainty what that means in terms of crime and whether there are any particular issues associated with particular groups, situations, demographics, whatever
2:13:35
You're concerned that ethnicity could be a predictor of criminality? No, I don't think it could be a predictor
2:13:41
but I do think that if we are not willing to have a look at the influencing factors
2:13:48
underlying root causes associated with things, then we're doing ourselves a disservice
2:13:52
Root causes like what now? Well, as you're looking at, for instance, current examples
2:14:00
obviously there was another fairly high-profile example last week where three asylum seekers who arrived on small boats were convicted and went to prison in relation to a group rape in Brighton Yes Now what we don know myself included is that somehow representative of any particular sort of trends
2:14:19
ways of thinking? But you know their ethnicity and their asylum status
2:14:23
Yes, but what I don't know is whether for the group as a whole
2:14:28
if you like, or the areas these guys have come from, or their age groups or their particular belief systems
2:14:33
or cultural backgrounds, whether those things are influencing factors... And how would you find that out
2:14:39
By the government being opal and honest and willing to... But it was. You know where these people came
2:14:44
where these gross individuals came from, and you know what they did
2:14:48
So the information you want has been provided to you. But is there a higher incidence, if you like
2:14:54
of grapes carried out by people from those backgrounds who fit into that category
2:15:01
I don't know the answer to that question. Do you? I've got the answer in front of me
2:15:05
on some elements of this, when the Home Office reveals the arrest rate
2:15:10
for every 1,000 people by ethnicity, and then you have the arrest rate
2:15:15
and the total number of arrests by ethnicity as well. So you can run through Asian, Bangladeshi, Chinese, Indian, Pakistani
2:15:22
Asian, other black, black African, black Caribbean, mixed, mixed white and Asian, mixed white and black
2:15:27
I mean, I could go on. The statistics, I'm sure, could be more detailed
2:15:32
but the information of anybody convicted and, I mean, you could do this yourself, couldn't you
2:15:38
You could just tot it all up and count. Well, no, not really
2:15:41
Why not? Well, because, as you know, statistics, you know, depending on how you select them
2:15:47
and how they're used and who's using them, can end up with a more clouded picture
2:15:52
So you don't want statistics? No, I do want statistics, but I want some..
2:15:56
So what statistics do you want? Well, for instance, you've just told, not told me
2:16:01
but as I understand it, if you look at the Brighton incident, two of the guys came on the same boat, I think
2:16:07
Is that right? You will know. I don't know for certain, but what would you learn from that fact that they did
2:16:13
that being on that boat was a predictor of a certain type of criminality? Well, if you, for instance, took statistics
2:16:18
and you said how many people were on that boat, and let's say for the sake of argument it was 100
2:16:23
let's take 100 people in the country at the same time and let's work out how many of those people
2:16:28
have subsequently been involved in gang rape in Brighton. And what do we learn from that
2:16:34
What we might learn from that is whether there are any predisposing factors, if you like
2:16:39
or things that may be feeding into some of these things. No, not being on a boat. I'm putting the point back to you about statistics
2:16:45
You can take statistics, unless you can agree, if you like, on how you use them in different ways
2:16:50
So I'm saying, well, of that group of 100 people who arrived on that day on that boat
2:16:55
let's take an equal group of people who are already here so two out of a hundred
2:17:00
yes and so what you want to do is arrive at conclusions about the other 98 people
2:17:05
on that boat who haven't committed any crimes no no not at all well
2:17:09
so what do you gain from the knowledge which in this case clearly you already have
2:17:15
but you somehow feel you should have more of what do you gain from that knowledge
2:17:19
so the boat your example there's a hundred people on a boat two of them are rapists
2:17:24
What does that knowledge give us that you can use helpfully? Well, part of the knowledge that it might give us is
2:17:31
are we, in effect, having larger numbers of people in the country
2:17:36
who have a different way of looking at... But what about the 98 people on the boat that haven't committed a crime
2:17:43
What do we learn about them? What we learn that they are potentially law-abiding citizens
2:17:49
I'm not suggesting... But we know all this already. We've got all this information. I don't think we have, James. I think you're dodging the issue
2:17:56
What's the issue I'm dodging now? The issue you're dodging is that the government and politicians
2:18:02
are so wary of discussing these sorts of issues that they're unwilling to..
2:18:07
What sorts of issues? The rapists in Brighton were asylum seekers. That was announced. I mean, it was reported everywhere
2:18:14
It's not something you could keep secret. What we're discussing is a story where people who probably want
2:18:19
the sort of statistics and information that you're referring to were able to claim that they were
2:18:23
being lied to or misled because there wasn't any information that the police could reveal. So what
2:18:29
would, how would our world improve? I mean, because you'll understand that to some people
2:18:34
you sound like you're calling for statistics that you agree with to be released, but I'm not even
2:18:39
but I'm not even clear on what those statistics are. How would our world be improved
2:18:44
I would like, I would like, I would like statistics. Is it skin colour
2:18:49
Or is it just asylum status? How can it be as simple as skin colour or just asylum status
2:18:57
Well, I don't know what you're asking for that isn't already available. I'm asking for an honest and open breakdown of statistics
2:19:03
that would give us some insight into whether we have got additional crime-related issues in the country
2:19:10
as a result of the fact that we now have a lot more people in the country
2:19:14
who weren't here previously. Well, I'm sure we do. I mean, any population. An increase in people
2:19:19
I mean, do you worry about the birth rate? Is that a problem at all from your point of view
2:19:26
I mean, it's a great refrain of mine that every single community in our country
2:19:30
creates criminals and creates criminality. So if you increase the number of Capricorns in the country
2:19:35
there'll be more Capricorn criminals. If you increase the number of men from Rushcliffe
2:19:40
there'll be more criminals from Rushcliffe because it's a percentage of a population. I think what you want is to know whether or not
2:19:45
the percentage of asylum seekers committing a certain type of crime is higher than the percentage of people from other backgrounds
2:19:53
whether there is a proclivity to commit a crime defined by your asylum status
2:19:57
which brings me back to the original question I asked, which is what do we do with that information
2:20:01
with regard to the massive, massive, massive majority of people in that category who are not criminals
2:20:06
the 98% of people on the boat of your imaginings that are not rapists
2:20:12
How do we use the information about the minority of two to deal differently with the innocent 98
2:20:20
Well, we have an open and honest discussion. We're having an open and honest discussion
2:20:24
I'm asking you to answer my question. Okay, well... What do we do with the information about the guilty
2:20:29
in our dealings with the innocent? Okay, well, let's extrapolate it out a bit
2:20:34
No, just answer the question, because I'm already late for the break. What do we do with the information about the guilty
2:20:39
in our dealings with the innocent? What you do, James, is you actually face up to some of the facts
2:20:44
which is an open and honest conversation, face up to the facts, but what do we actually do
2:20:49
There's 98 innocent people here who shared a boat with two rapists. How do we treat them differently from how we're currently treating them
2:20:55
Are you going to let me answer the question? Yes, please. Right. Well, let's, for the sake of argument, extrapolate it out
2:21:01
Let's times the number of boats. You're not answering the question. I am answering the question
2:21:05
but you want to jump in and stop me answering it. No, I don't. What are we going to do with those 98 people
2:21:10
differently from what we're doing now? If you let me answer the question, I will explain Well if you start answering the question I let you answer it If you extrapolate those figures out okay let suppose there going to be
2:21:25
100 rapes for every 200,000 people. Why are we doing this? We're talking about your original
2:21:30
example of 98 innocent people. We find out that there's two rapists on a
2:21:34
boat that they came across on. How do we treat those 98 people differently? Why won't you just answer
2:21:38
the question? James, you're very good at haranguing people. It's not haranguing, Neil. You're very good at saying extrapolate, but how do we treat innocent people differently because of a shared characteristic with guilty people
2:21:52
No, I don't. No, I don't. For the record, no, I don't
2:21:56
Okay, so then why do you want the statistics now? One more go. Make your point
2:22:02
For anyone listening to this logically, this is why people never phone in to try and have a conversation with you, James
2:22:08
But here you are, phoning in to have a conversation with me. Because I hope that occasionally you might be willing to listen to..
2:22:15
Well, go on then. How are we going to treat those 98 people differently from how we do now
2:22:20
Can I have one minute to explain without you interrupting me? Very late for the break, but go on, speak quickly
2:22:25
Don't say extrapolate. I'll ring off and leave other people to make their own decisions. No, no, you crack on. I'll give you a minute
2:22:30
Right. Well, what I was trying to explain was that if, for the sake of argument
2:22:35
for every boat of 100 people that arrived, there will be two people who are more likely to commit rapes
2:22:41
If you extrapolate that out to a number of boats and you get to a decision point where you say, well, OK, for 100,000 people arriving, there's going to be 100 extra rapes
2:22:50
Is that an acceptable risk or not? That's the sort of conversation I'm saying the government should be having
2:22:55
And how do you know that somebody is more likely to be a rapist because they were on a boat
2:23:02
It's not about being on a boat, is it? It's about cultural background. It's about where people come from
2:23:07
it's all the factors that you will never ever even admit to discussing
2:23:12
or to even entertain the could be a discussion about. Are we not discussing it now
2:23:17
Yes, we are, but only on a superficial level. Okay. I'm sorry you feel it was a superficial conversation
2:23:23
I look forward to talking to you again when either we have a little bit more time
2:23:27
or we've got a slightly clearer understanding of what it is that we're actually discussing
2:23:31
But in the meantime, lots of people rioting in Epsom because they weren't given information that existed
2:23:38
Because it didn't exist. And questions of whether or not the authorities
2:23:42
should be doing something differently persist. Thank you, Neil. I look forward to our next conversation
2:23:46
when we can do a lot more extrapolating. It's 12.53. James O'Brien on LBC
2:23:53
12.56 is the time. A very curtailed slot for Agi Chombray because I do dislike being accused of not letting people speak
2:24:02
But unfortunately, I'm not going to let you speak as much as I should have done. So I'll be quiet and you can tell us
2:24:07
what Keir Starmer has been talking about this morning. Well, James, Keir Starmer has been at an USDAW conference
2:24:12
He's been making a speech to the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers this morning
2:24:19
And really what he wanted to do was reiterate again and again that he is on the side of working people
2:24:25
He talked about retail theft. He talked about employment rights. Perhaps unsurprising because of who he was talking about
2:24:32
and really wanted to, which actually I think he doesn't do enough of
2:24:36
talked about what this government, he says, has done, talked about sick pay from day one
2:24:43
talked about paternity leave from day one, talked about fire and rehire being scrapped
2:24:48
And he talked about the fact that they have just scrapped regulation
2:24:53
where shoplifters stealing goods worth less than £200 would not be properly held to account
2:24:59
He said, we've scrapped this ridiculous regulation He said, we are calling time on the free-for-all standing firm together against the disgraceful crime of shop theft
2:25:10
And he also said he wasn't blind to how big a challenge it was and talked about the fact that the number of people charged has gone up by 17% in the last statistics and said shop theft is down, but only slightly
2:25:22
But he said the tide could be turning. And in this speech, he also made it personal
2:25:28
He talks about a care worker who worked very long hours year after year
2:25:35
Some care workers didn't have sick pay. So if they were sick, they had to stay at home and simply not get paid at all
2:25:44
In the pandemic, as we were all clapping them, recognising what they were doing for our country
2:25:52
Well, delegates, that care worker is my sister. and every day I ask myself
2:26:03
does Britain work for her? Does Britain work for people like my late brother
2:26:11
I had a life touched by opportunity. I grew up working class, and I've been lucky
2:26:19
But Nick, my brother, he had difficulties learning and spent his entire adult life
2:26:27
going from one job to the next. Does Britain work for people like him
2:26:34
Because there are millions of people like that. People who've been ignored by politics for years
2:26:41
People who don't get the dignity and the respect that they deserve
2:26:46
And who don't get the opportunity to go as far as their talent and effort would take them
2:26:51
So yes, I know whose side I'm on. Keir Starmer there talking about his sister and his late brother who died on Boxing Day in 2024
2:27:02
And just one more thought from that speech was he did say at the end, he talked about the fact that he would fight for working people with every breath he has
2:27:11
And I just thought that language was interesting, talking about fighting with every breath he has
2:27:15
considering that pressure that he's under from his own party and also opposition parties too
2:27:20
He's not. I mean, all of the talk about him making an announcement that he will step down at some later date or facing rebellion from within the ranks
2:27:30
I mean, he gave an interview to a paper this weekend as well when he talked about his intention to lead the Labour Party into the next election
2:27:36
He's not getting the same memos that some of the politicians speaking to some of the journalists are getting
2:27:42
No, no, indeed. I mean, he said, as you say, over the weekend, he's going nowhere. He believes he can win the next election
2:27:48
And also said the vast majority of the parliamentary Labour Party is loyal
2:27:53
And that felt like, you know, fighting back in that speech this morning. But there is a huge amount of unhappiness in his party
2:27:59
Indeed there is. Agui Chambrae, thank you very much indeed. If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global Player app
2:28:05
or indeed the LBC app where you can also stay up to date with all the latest news, videos and opinions
2:28:10
You can listen to a range of podcasts including James O'Brien Daily, the best bits from my LBC show every day
2:28:16
Download it for free from your app store now. Coming up at four on LBC, it's Tom Swarbrick
2:28:20
but now it's time for Sheila Fogarty. James O'Brien on LBC
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