'It's just dreadful...' | PMQs analysed

Also seeming familiar is this shadow boxing that we're getting at the moment in a way with, as I say, this rock caretaker government, really, in all but name, between Keir Starmer and Kemi Baden-Ock

The political bandwagon, Natasha Clarke, are still with me. It's sort of moved on and yet not really

It's still stuck in the mud. Yeah, and look, what a PMQ is where it really just summed up that stuck in the mud feeling that Westminster is in that moment

You know what they call it, Natasha? They call it going through the motions. Going through the motions. It's just stasis

And everybody, I spoke to one civil servant the other day who said, you know, I've stopped work on basically like a good chunk of my projects because there is no point when a new minister comes in, a new secretary of state comes in, we have to repitch all of our ideas to them again to make sure that is exactly what they want us to be doing

So I can continue with work knowing that it's going to go in the bin or I can just basically focus my time on other things

It's sunny though, isn't it? Exactly. It is sunny. It must be very tempting outside of the ministerial window

Exactly, I'll bet. But yes, obviously this row over defence spending isn't going to go away

And, you know, it's just a symbol of exactly how, you know, destroyed Keir Starmer's authority is, isn't it

That he can't muster up the more than £15 billion defence. The numbers speak for themselves, don't they

They wanted £28 billion. They've got less than half of that. £5 billion is not funded at all

Although, to be fair, just because they want it doesn't mean that they ought to get it. It's true. It's true. And, you know, I don't think anybody will argue that the Ministry of Defence have wasted money in the past on terrible projects

You know, throwing money at the walls and it's just... Planes we don't need. Planes we don't need. Tanks that don't work

helicopters that don't work, tanks that don't work, ships that potentially we don't need

Aircraft carriers without any aircraft. Exactly. Not ideal. Not ideal, of course. It's just

dreadful. But equally, you can't say that this way of doing government is working, right? If you

look at the defence investment plan that was published yesterday it basically just savings to 15 billion That basically the entire breakdown of exactly how the government it just not how government should work I know And I have to say I mean I feel like this is kicking around monies down and

I know people won't like this, but I do, this does come back to my point, which is, I am

surprised that not more people are saying, why is Keir Starmer still there? We know who's

going to be the next prime minister, but we know, you know, there is no one else has come

forward. No one else is gonna come forward. The political authority of the Labour Party

already, for all intents and purposes, transferred to Andy Burnham. And I know that Keir Starmer unveiled that plan

or the timetable, which is the Labour Party's timetable, but that's a timetable of their choosing

I mean, that's completely arbitrary. We never used to have these long handovers

between Prime Ministers. I mean, if it's clear who the next one's going to be, our constitution does say, well, get on with it

Just go, man, just go. To avoid reasons like this, which is you've got big decisions being made

by an outgoing government over which there can be no assurance that the incoming government will adhere to

But this is something that he wanted to do for his legacy. He wanted to do this. He wants to go to the NATO summit

He talked so much in his speech yesterday about the impact of Ukraine and what he's seen on the ground in Kyiv

But it's just kind of funny because he's not really putting his money where his mouth is in any sense

He hasn't been able to. He hasn't been able to find it. He hasn't been able to find this money. And actually, I actually don't think it was worth him

sort of trying to push the timetable for his departure in order to make this announcement happen

because it does seem like he's stuck between a rock and a hard place. And look, we should go, look, yeah, 15 billion pegs

that's great, you know, that is exactly what people say is needed

But it does feel like, you know, Keir Starmer mentioned just there, he was, you know, reading off a list of people that have supported this plan

The tweet that I've seen from Mark Rutte, the NATO boss, calls it a good step, I welcome the plan

and he talks about the important focus of NATO. It's not a really endorsement. They clearly are behind the scenes have had some discussions about this Mark Rutte was I believe in Downey Street earlier this week to talk to the Prime Minister about this plan Kia like can I have your job Exactly Well maybe Number 10 said on Monday he has a job

Yeah, yeah, till the 20th of July. Exactly. But, you know, the fact that Luke Pollard, the Armed Forces Minister

we found out the broadcast round, only found out about this missing £5 billion yesterday, like, it does feel like they are just on the back foot

just trying to get this desperately out the door. The other reason that, Sasha, again, maybe I'm just..

Maybe I'm just an old constitutional stick of them, but I'm like Robert Peel. I'm about to be thrown off my horse in 1815

They never call you that, Lewis. They never call you that. No, they call me far worse. But, like, one of the reasons there's a problem with it

is precisely the reason you just said, which is that, you know, we've got a prime minister coming in

Look, at the moment, he's not taking questions. He's not doing interviews. He can't be held accountable. But the first thing that anyone's going to ask him

among many other things, as soon as he does sit down in front of a microphone, is, well, Andy Burnham

do you support the defence investment plan or not? And if he doesn't say wholeheartedly yes, then his whole exercise is for naught

Exactly. And he could just rip it up and do it all again. Prime ministers cannot bind the hands of their successor

No prime minister can do that. Arguably the only one that's really ever done so in the last few years has been Theresa May and the net zero by 2050 target

which really did bind hands because it was a law change. But, you know, laws can be ripped up. They can be changed

Defence investment plans can be ripped up completely and started again. I don't know about you, Lewis

He didn't really mention defence in his Monday speech. I don't know how much Andy Burnham cares about defence

I'm sure he does. I'm sure he does, but I don't know if it's a priority for him

When you've got housing, when you've got him talking about business rates, you've got a long list of government priorities

that I think Andy Burnham set out very articulately on Monday, which now the civil service will be beavering away on

I don't feel like defence is going to be a huge priority for Andy Burnham. And you can see as well I mean the Conservative bench is Kemi Baden already sharpening their attacks on Burnham And specifically I mean it obviously been a theme during the Starmer premiership as well

but clearly what the Baden-Ock strategy is is to use that cliche, lay down the gauntlet to Burnham to say

and set a test for him, which is, if you're serious about defence, then you'll cut welfare

And if you don't cut welfare, which she knows, that even with his enhanced political authority over the Labour Party

it's going to be tricky to do, then you basically say that you're not serious. That's the Conservative strategy

Exactly. And it is going to be tricky for them to do so. I do think they will probably go ahead with it

considering listening to the thoughts of Jim O'Neill, the economist that Andy Burnham has hired

and listening to the thoughts of James Purnell as well or his thoughts on welfare. I do think he'll probably have to go ahead and do it

I do think he will look to welfare reform under a new government. But yes, you're totally right

We haven't really mentioned the Tory record on defence being a different time, right

They did cut. They did make huge cuts to defence. So, Kemi Bednar is on the back foot going. Yes, in real terms, I mean, it was down for about 26% until 2016-17

and it got back up to roughly in real terms where it was in 2010. So that's a 0% increase, despite the fact, of course

that during that time we had the Russian invasion, double Russian invasion of Ukraine and all sorts of other stuff

Exactly, really, really slow to catch up on defence spending, absolutely. But, you know, they've got no leg to stand on, really

because of all of the cuts that they oversaw when they were in government for 14 years

I often want to ask you when you do this with James, do you get sad that you don't get to watch the other bit of PMQs

because you're doing this? Do you go back and watch the other bit? Yeah, yeah, of course. Do you

Because I can just see you looking out the corner of your eyes slightly wistfully. I just want to know what's going on. I know what's going on

Slightly wistfully going, oh, no, what? Oh, Sarah Pochin looks up and unhappy. What's Sarah Pochin? What's she doing? What's James McMurdoch saying

Exactly. She always looks unhappy. Okay, well, I'll let you go away and do that. I don't want you to miss any more of this

the highlight of your week. So Natasha Clarke there, our political editor, of course

And to be honest, if it wasn't the highlight of our week, she wouldn't be doing her job properly