Lewis Goodall unpacks his interview with Wes Streeting

Wes Streeting has been speaking exclusively to Global's podcast and news agents this morning

Lewis Goodall is here with me. We'll talk in a moment. He asked Wes Streeting for his reaction following the week that we have had surrounding Henry Novak

and the political reaction and the public reaction sometimes on the streets that we've seen

The choice for the country has been laid bare. We can be a country that is like Henry Novak's father, who gave the most morally courageous and thoughtful and inspiring message

whilst dealing with a grief and a tragedy that I can barely comprehend

I mean, I could not even watch the full clip of the arrest of Henry Novat

I couldn't get to the end of it. I found it so distressing. And I didn't know the kid. He wasn't my son

And I found it distressing and chilling. and in the face of that grief his father found the moral courage and clarity to say

I don't want this to be used to further division in our country. I thought that was magnificent

and I think it's contingent on all of us and not just politicians the nation to respond to that

kind of moral leadership. And then by contrast, I saw Nigel Farage calling for

rage in this country. And I also saw the way in which the Reform Party sought to

grossly and dangerously misrepresent Kemi Badenock, who, like Keir Starmer, I thought showed the right

kind of leadership in response to this. And I don't hold a torch for Kemi at all, funnily enough

But I saw her on the breakfast sofa this week, and I saw her speak with clarity and conviction

when she said, I don't care about Black Lives Matter. I don't care about White Lives Matter

All lives matter. She was really clear about that. She didn't say, I don't care

so I don't want to hear black lives, white lives, they all matter

So she was really clear. Then an ad goes up that quotes what she said in 2022

black lives do matter. Set against one part of what she said on Breakfast Television this week

I don't want to hear about white lives matter. Those two sentences slapped on an ad with Kemi's face

and promoted across social media like wildfire. Why? because they want people to believe that the black woman who leads the Conservative Party

cares about black people but doesn't care about white lives. And that was dangerous. It was incendiary

And I don't say this lightly. This is the type of propaganda that is reminiscent of the 1930s

And that is the choice for the country. You can have a politics that is decent, that is based on ideas

and that is about hope and possibility. Or you can have a politics that is about rage

is about division, and seeks to ferment and stir hatred to politically profit from it

Well, that was strong. Lewis Goodall spoke to West Streeting for a lot longer than that

So let's get a sense of how that conversation went more broadly. The stuff on the 1930s there

is what I'd like to discuss with people, actually. Tell me a bit more about what he said

Well, Sheila, I have to say this is the first time that I've seen West Streeting since he resigned from the cabinet

And you got the sense of a man completely unbound really Yes And almost dare I say it sometimes you know what it like in these interviews it almost becomes a little bit of the old councillor chair

You know, when someone is sort of saying and talking about recent events

and I'm sure he's talked, of course, with lots of people privately, but there's always something a little bit different

about being in front of the microphone. They're offloading. And there's just a sense of him getting off his chest

Quite frankly, let's just, we'll come back to the 1930s stuff and what he said about Henry Novak, which was very powerful

But also, settling some scores is too strong a term. But he certainly wanted to correct the record, I think it's fair to say

in his mind, in terms of how he feels he was treated by Number 10

by Kiss Starmer, lots of stories around that and what he perceives as a deep unfairness

And also, frankly, what he wanted to add, I think, to his ysis of why he resigned

And of course, I put it to him that this was about his ambition and about the fact he wants to be prime minister

And of course, he doesn't resile from the idea he wants to be prime minister because he's been very clear he's going to stand

But in terms of what he thinks about the prime minister, I mean, he essentially said that he feels that the prime minister

is completely incapable of doing the job, of being prime minister. And that is why he thought, fundamentally, his ysis was

that he was never going to improve because he does not have

and again, these are more, I'm paraphrasing slightly, but this is the essence of what he said

He feels that he is simply not sufficiently political to do the job

He doesn't have the political chops for it, and he doesn't have the impetus, the drive

that he thinks you need to have as prime minister to affect the change and translate the change into government

that he thinks that the prime minister, or any prime minister, or any government needs. And I thought when he used words like

I know whenever any politician uses the word hope, people say, oh, Obama, the hopey-feely thing

But I think in the context of what we've seen this week, when he talked about a choice between the politics of hope and possibility, that's an interesting word, hope and possibility or rage and division

I think that is really accurate. That is precisely the choice. Indeed. I think what Streeting said about Novak and about the politics that we've seen this week is very striking

And for reasons I'll explain, he actually links it to his ysis of the prime minister

Look, he, and I don't think he'd, I think he's chosen his words advisedly and deliberately

He is comparing, in particular, what we saw from Nigel Farage and the Reform Party

the tactics that they used, particularly what they said about Kemi Badenok, taking, as Mr Streeting would say and believe, and I think many people would agree with

Kemi Badenok out of context in a digital purpose, using that for political purposes

talking about rage with regards to this race relations issue, wishing to mobilize white voters white people to believe that there is basically an asymmetric

approach from the law and from police's so-called two-tier policing at their expense for which to

be honest there is not a great deal of evidence of course you'll always be able to point to particular things and of course we are awaiting the actual inquiry into what happened on that

fateful and terrible night to poor henry novak but he is essentially saying that these things

to him are reminiscent of the politics of grievance and of betrayal that we saw in the 1930s. Now

it is often the case that if politicians start talking about Nazism or they start talking about

those things that, you know, people can sort of say, well, that's hyperbolic, that was then

this is now, things are different. But it is clear that in Streeting's mind, at least, there is

in his view, a choice for voters at the next election between what he calls, and in this sense

he actually echoes the Prime Minister, a politics of decency and common good and a politics of rage and division

The difference is in that sense, as I say, that actually Streeting and the Prime Minister are aligned

I think Andy Burnham probably would be as well in how they see Farage and reform

Obviously, they would have their own version of it. But the reason that Streeting is saying that he's doing what he's doing is precisely for that reason

He thinks that the stakes are so high He thinks that the choice between progressive forces and forces of nationalism as he would put it is so gaping and so dangerous in his view that he says he feels compelled to

take up that mantle because he believes that the Prime Minister, I asked him, is it your view that

the Prime Minister, because of what you see as his political failings, is the midwife of this

nationalism, of this 1930s politics? He said the answer was yes. Not intending to be. Of course not. But through his, what Streeting would see as the Prime Minister's political inadequacies and deficiencies and lack of ability to improve. Again, Keir Starmer would have a very different version of events, I'm sure. But that's how Streeting says he sees it. And he's saying that inadvertently, Starmer will prove to be the midwife to the forces of populism and of nationalism and of the sort of politics that we saw in the 1930s

It's interesting, isn't it? Because I'm struck by how both this week and think back to Southport and the riots that followed there

that Keir Starmer has actually shown flashes of spot on politicking, well, leading in those moments

But the problem isn't just about those terrible incidents, is it? The problem for him in terms of his political abilities, his shortcomings, in a sense, they run through everything

inevitably, like any of us in our job, your shortcomings run through the long of it. Well, again, this is just, of course, how we're streeting, and not just we're streeting

obviously, others within the Labour Party, I think, would see it. But I think what Streeting

would say is that even if the Prime Minister has a good day, and some would say, like you say

Sheila, that he's had some good days this week in terms of his response to Nigel Farage and the

Commons and others, I think Streeting would say, his ysis would be that the problem is, is the

public have stopped listening, that the public aren't listening to Keir Starmer anymore, and they've really made up their mind about Keir Starmer

that they don't have an emotional and political connection to or with him. And actually, in this interview, Streeting also said

that, frankly, the Prime Minister doesn't have any emotional or political connection with them

that neither does the public understand him and neither does he understand them

Now, again, supporters of Keir Starmer and others... When we talk about this, we do get plenty of..

I know, I know, and that's why I'm saying... I'm simply saying... I mean, this is obviously, nonetheless

a man who worked closely with Starmer for a long time. He was in his government. Yes, one has to remember the context

which is clearly West Streeting. wants to be prime minister but he was in this interview i would say blistering actually about

the prime minister about his political performance and he says he's doing so precisely because he's

so worried about the exingences of the politics of weeks like this and he he seems to be saying

that whoever it is it may be him because he said he'll go for it as you said um whoever takes on

the Farage phenomenon, because it is one, has to be more muscular, more ready

more verbally equipped as a politician, more politically equipped as a politician in order to do it

That seems to be the bottom line here. He is, and he's also saying they also need to back it up with policy

So something else that he said in this interview is he's extremely concerned by the actions

of both the Trump administration and Elon Musk in what he describes as a consistent interference

in our domestic politics. We've obviously seen what Elon Musk has said about this alleged two-tier policing

Not sure how much he knows, Mr. Musk, about Hampshire police and their working documents

but who knows? They say he doesn't sleep, so maybe he reads through them overnight

We've seen the Trump administration, the State Department, tweeting what they've tweeted about, again

so-called two-tier policing and so on, getting involved in UK politics. Streeting is saying that

I think his exact phrase was that Musk needs to bugger off. And that the Trump administration, he thinks he would be saying to them, look, he as a former government minister and certainly as a potential prime minister would not give a running commentary on American politics

My word, there's plenty to say, and I'm sure he, like all British politicians, have plenty to think

But as a general rule, government ministers don't comment on the domestic politics of the United States

And he saying I think most people across the political spectrum would agree with this at least certainly in the Labour Party anyway He saying that that is something that the UK government ought to communicate to the Trump administration that we don comment on your politics You

know what, lads, maybe you shouldn't comment on ours. And you mentioned policy there. The reality is, let's see what happens in the next general

election. You know, we'll see. And obviously there's a by-election soon, which will give

us a flavour of the situation now. But the truth is, reform is attracting a great deal

of interest from voters and support from voters, whether that translates into a general election

victory is anybody's guess. But he, West Streeting, obviously feels that, it seems from what you've

said, I haven't listened to your interview yet. I'd be amazed if you had Sheila, given we were recording it while you were on air in the first hour of the show. I know you're

You're a talented broadcaster, but surely, even you, even great Sheila Fogarty, wouldn't be able to multitask to that extent

I haven't heard a flipping word of it. Well, apart from the bit I played out. But I think that whether it's Keir Starmer, whether it's West Street, whether it's Andy Burnham or somebody else

the Labour leader, the Labour Party, the government has to start saying something to those voters that makes them at least turn back in Labour's direction, don't they

Yeah, look, I think there are two schools of thought about this, and it slightly depends where you think Labour's best chances are, right

One is, and I think that probably streaking would be in this school, would be to say that, you know, whereas Labour actually lost most of its voters, it's lost most of its voters to its left, right, to the Green Party and to some extent the Lib Dems, not to reform

Some of those votes have been lost elsewhere. That's not to say, of course, that there isn't some bleeding and hemorrhaging in that way

But I think, therefore, that school of thought is to say the Labour Party almost needs to wear its progressivism a little bit more strongly, that it ought to, needs to remind progressive voters what's at stake and that the Labour Party fundamentally is the home for them

There's another school of thought within the Labour Party and the so-called blue Labour and so on who say, actually, the biggest problem is that the Labour Party over many years has drifted away from its more traditional, provincial, working class space of support

More socially conservative. More socially conservative, you know, concerned about immigration and so on

And in a way, I think the best Labour politicians would actually conclude that the truth is, is that, you know, it's a bit of all of the above

You know, you can't, successful political leaders are able to, able to, to soften the edges and to, to fuse different parts of the electorate together

And even though on the face of it, it kind of looks like, oh, that coalition doesn't really make sense

their politics is such, they're supple enough to be able to do it. Boris Johnson

was a great example of this, whether you loved him or hated him. The coalition he got together around him

And that was partly Brexit contingent, but it was more than that. People used to say, I think someone

described him once as sort of sat like a great toad across most of British

politics. It's sort of true. He was both sort of anti-woke, but also quite green

He was sort of, you know, obviously very Brexity, yet on another

level, a sort of quite deeply metropolitan and figure, you know, he sort of had lots of different impulses

And the best politicians, great politicians, kind of do that. People sometimes say they're a bit amorphous or whatever

but actually it's more than that. You know, if you're going to build a big tent, which the Labour and Tory parties historically have been..

They have a nuanced appeal to people. They've got appeals in different directions

And I think the truth is, is that if there's going to be another Labour leader, they are probably going to have to be a bit like that

They're going to have to push and pull and duck and dive, whilst also, and this is the skill of politics

do all of that whilst not looking like an incoherent mess, which sometimes perhaps the current Prime Minister

his enemies might say has done. When you said a bit like that just a moment ago

you sounded a little bit like Harold Wilson. Well, he was just occupying me there for a moment, Sheila

Another great example of that sort of figure. Oh, yes. I know what's going on

I am going on. I wonder whether you're channelling him. I think he's channelling me

No, yeah, I agree, I agree. Look, I mean, look, that would be a great pleasure. That would be a great pleasure, Sheila

No exorcisms required here. Harold and I are inhabiting the same body with great pleasure