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Nigel Farage has told LBC that Reform has done "nothing wrong" after two party officials were caught accepting foreign donations in an undercover sting.
He insisted there was "nothing illegal" about his officials accepting overseas donations for three polls commissioned earlier this year - despite rival parties including the Lib Dems reporting Reform to the police over the claims.
"The party has broken no laws. The party has not taken any dodgy money or anything like that", he told Nick Ferrari at Breakfast.
James O'Brien, despairing, took to the phones to ask: 'Why would you still support Reform?' Our listeners took him in an unexpected direction.
00:00 | Sandra recounts her mother 'turning racist' after becoming a Farage fan
07:58 | Michael explains how his relationship with his parents was 'destroyed' by their far-right radicalisation
#jamesobrien #nigelfarage #reform #ukpolitics #lbc
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0:00
So your parent has been radicalised by Nigel Farage and by online toxicity
0:05
The things she comes out with are so shocking. How do you deal with a loved one who has become racist
0:12
Travelling past Manchester from Carlisle, past your granddaughter to go to a Tommy Robinson march
0:18
You know, alright, you can do what you want with your time, it's your life. Maybe we could come up with some things we could do to help
0:24
Sandra's in Wigan. Sandra, what would you like to say? hi James I wanted to talk to you
0:29
about my mum similar to the previous caller really, he's, Nigel Farage
0:35
is the messiah in her house I know it is that bad, my dad to an extent
0:41
but really my mum and what I think really frightening about it
0:45
is I don't remember my mum ever saying anything racist before but I don't remember this being
0:51
a part of her you know her language her everyday vocabulary, but now
0:56
the things she comes out with are so shocking. We were round having
1:02
tea a few weeks ago, and I've got a little girl, and I've taught my little girl
1:06
about racism, because where we are in Wigan, it's very, very overt
1:10
now. It's awful. Really awful. I can't even get my head around it in the comments you see
1:18
on Facebook groups, on local things. It's just everywhere. I just can't believe that
1:23
So I teach my little girl about this and about how, you know, there's good and there's bad and we can use our power for good
1:30
So if we see people, we need to make them feel welcome and safe. So we're not part of them
1:36
We're showing people that they do belong. So she's kind of embodied this and she was telling my mum over dinner about how we'd seen a family in the park, a dad and two sons
1:47
And my little girl started teaching them how to use conkers through the language barrier
1:53
And it had just been such a joyous, lovely moment. And the little boys were so pleased and the dad was so grateful
2:00
And she was so happy telling my mom. And my mom said, well, you shouldn't have done that
2:05
And I said, what, why? She went, well, the dad was probably a rapist
2:10
I said, what? What? She said, well, I've had Nigel Farage on the news
2:16
and he's told me that, you know, they're all rapists. you know, it's, you know, overpopulated
2:23
rapist and, you know, you shouldn't be talking and I thought, wow She believes it then, so I mean
2:28
because the fear is I'm not saying I'd necessarily feel sorry for you, I think
2:34
because this is tough, and in a way I feel sorry for her because she's been boxed
2:39
into a position that is both hideous and ridiculous It is, yeah, and once you're with it
2:44
you have to go with it, don't you? I think you do, I suppose you do
2:48
so I mean that's the question this hour isn't it is whether or not anything can break the spell
2:52
but I mean she must have had colleagues or people who lived nearby when you were
2:58
growing up who were brown and she never thought they were all sex offenders our favourite corner shop
3:03
they loved them there it comes back to your point not them
3:07
I don't mean them I just mean the one in the park whose sons were playing with your granddaughter
3:11
it's really shocking you know my dad said he's drank the Kool-Aid
3:16
but not quite as much and he said well you know, Sandra, there's 3,000 mosques now in Bolton
3:23
And I said, what? I said, 3,000 mosques in Bolton? And he said, yes, because they all get a council tax exemption
3:31
I said, right, well, let's just double check that, Dad. I said, because we have Google now, so we can verify
3:37
And I said, actually, I've Googled it, there's 28 in Bolton, and no, they don't get a council tax exemption
3:43
And what did he do? You can do my holiday cover, Sandra
3:47
if you carry on like this. What did he? You know what he said? You know what he said? He said, yeah, but who writes that on Google
3:53
Oh, do you know that's true? I said, well, who told you there was 3,000
3:57
Most well, I heard it at the local social club. I said, oh, well
4:02
And that's not Farage's fault, but they are Farage's people, aren't they
4:06
I think it is Farage's fault, actually, because I never heard any of this before
4:12
This has gotten so much worse since the rise of Farage and all of, you know, all that rhetoric that they're engulfing everybody with
4:21
And, you know, where you live you might not hear it as much, but here in Wigan it is everywhere
4:26
Oh, I see the internet. And I never heard it before. No. No, I know, that's interesting
4:31
I heard the other comments I not listening No I mean it an emboldened month isn it And you see the reason why we didn hear it before was because some of these interventions would be career If Sarah Pochin came out and said
4:43
there's too many people with brown and black faces in television adverts, she would have been chucked out of any political party previously
4:49
If Nick Timothy had said, you can't be praying in public if you're a Muslim, it's a threat of, I don't know, a threat of aggression or something like that
4:55
he'd have been fired and instead he's been promoted. Yeah, but I think the difference now is
5:01
people would have frowned upon that before. Whereas now, they believe it too
5:07
And I do think that is a direct result of him. I really don't think my mum was racist to that extent before
5:15
Like I said, I never heard anything, but now she definitely is. The comments she comes out with
5:20
holding a Bible, I might add, the comments she comes out with
5:23
couldn't write it, could you? And the comments she comes out with are just so shocking and outlandish
5:30
But she never did it before. And it's the internet as well, isn't it
5:34
Is she on the internet? Is she on Facebook? She's a big watcher of GB News, which I think have a lot to answer for
5:41
A lot to answer for because the rhetoric they have, and sometimes I'll put it on just sort of morbid curiosity
5:47
And their version and their take of things is so skewed to that version
5:52
that rhetoric. and they're drinking it all the time. Your mum comes away thinking that every brown man in the park
5:59
with his own children is a sex offender. This is a very memorable call for me, Sandra
6:05
I'm really grateful, but I am genuinely sorry that you're in such a powerful position to make it
6:10
Do you think there's any chance of getting your mum back? No, I think the only thing now will be she'll go to Restore
6:20
I think she's gone that far down the garden path. So it doesn't matter that you'll point out
6:26
it'll be the ones that are all right that get deported too? None of it
6:32
And does Ebber try all your techniques, James? I pose the question
6:37
You know, who's benefiting from this? What will this mean for the NHS
6:41
You know, what's the policies on this? And it doesn't matter how you phrase it
6:45
because she's so far down now into that. There's no coming out of it
6:49
She even said to me last week that it was Ukraine's fault that Russia invaded
6:53
because they were pointing weapons at Russia, and if they hadn't have done that, Putin wouldn't have invaded
6:58
Well, that's pure fair. You know, that is how far into it she is. It's all there. Merge and meld into, you know, all the positions end up being held at the same time
7:07
Just final question, and what is she like on vaccines? Oh, can you guess
7:13
Well, I can, yes, but I didn't want to say it without checking with you
7:17
No, no, you're right. you're absolutely living. Sandra, thank you. I mean, it's magnificent that you've got
7:24
still got your sense of humour about it all because the important thing to do, I suppose, is to
7:28
keep frowning. I get encouraged, for example, by the polling this week that shows
7:32
the two words most associated with Nigel Farage by the British public are racist and
7:36
liar. But of course, if you're watching the television that Sandra's mum's
7:40
watching, or if you're reading the Facebook pages that she's reading, or you're looking at the papers that
7:45
she's looking at, or reading your Dick Little, John Columns, then you'd be forgiven for thinking
7:51
that the truth was the polar opposite. He's not a racist liar. He's a Spitfire pilot
7:56
He's a Battle of Britain made flesh. He's a racist liar. Michael is in Manchester
8:01
Michael, what made you pick up the phone? Hi, James. It's nice to speak to you again
8:05
We've spoken about this previously. Go on. On this occasion, I'm mid-painting my living room
8:10
so thanks for the welcome description. Well, yes, quite nice to have the radio on when you're painting
8:15
because it somehow keeps you company. What colour are you doing it
8:19
Something nice and neutral? Yeah, well, no, actually quite a bold, somewhere between dark greeny blue
8:24
Oh, lovely. And is it a feature wall or are you doing the whole room? Gone from a blue feature wall going to the full room
8:30
Oh. Might be painting it back. Lovely stuff. Very shortly after. Anyway
8:35
That's the niceties out of the way. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm the guy we've spoken before
8:40
I am estranged from my parents. I have a daughter, now three years old
8:46
my sister is also up in carlisle she is also estranged from my
8:52
parents who live in carlisle and she also has a daughter my niece who's about 10 right
8:56
so that's the background so they're not seeing their grandparents on one side
9:01
yeah correct oh man yeah they now our relationship is basically we tried I think I coming at this from the what can be done and I the case of if you feel like nothing can be done
9:19
it was obviously really kind of hardening, but sad hearing from the last couple of calls
9:25
Well, you cut the wire, didn't you? I think there were Tommy Robinson marches involved. Correct
9:30
So let's go back, can we, to how it started. So start with your parents
9:35
Yeah. How did it start? When did you first think, aye, aye, this isn't right
9:41
So the Brexit vote obviously was one of the big ones. They voted Brexit
9:45
Yeah, but again, I mean, I will still say plenty of perfectly decent people voted Brexit
9:50
It didn't mean that they were racists. Yeah, our relationship carried on after that
9:55
because, as you say, it's no guarantee. Following that, I live up in Manchester
9:59
so we were in Piccadilly Gardens with them and a bit like the previous caller
10:04
a couple of ladies wearing full niacabs with their little kids, pushing prams
10:09
walked by and my dad just came out with should be illegal, shouldn't be allowed to wear those
10:13
out of the blue so that was a bit of a red flag but still not
10:21
full on, I mean I don't want to choose my words carefully but not
10:25
full on bigot because I can understand the problems that some people have
10:31
with any cultural requirement upon a woman to cover herself up. And equally, you know, we've taken calls over the years
10:38
from women who wear the full veil, who insist that they're doing so entirely of their own volition
10:44
and there's no pressure being put upon them whatsoever and that it's incredibly restrictive and repressed of us
10:50
to tell them what they can and can't wear. So it does cut both ways. Well, I guess I'm saying it and I wouldn't at that point have said
10:56
well, my dad's lost to me and I don't think you did either. No, I didn't. So he took, they were the first couple of symptoms, signs
11:02
and then a bit of a difficult relationship with my partner and general family stuff is before my daughter came along. Right
11:08
And then, yeah, the Tommy Robinson, first Tommy Robinson march was the big one
11:13
where we had a full-blown argument and things kind of moved into
11:18
do I feel safe, you being around my daughter, and do I want to spend energy and..
11:24
Because of what might be said, just to be clear, not because of any other form of threat or fear
11:29
but because if you're going on that march, then you're possessed of opinions
11:34
that you might not want your child exposed to. 100%. And we, obviously, they live in Carlisle, very different
11:39
We're on the border of Manchester and Bolton, where all those mosques are
11:43
It's 30,000, mate. There must be at least two on your street. There is, yeah, yeah
11:47
And even if there was, I mean, crikey, so what? There are people praying down with that sort of thing
11:52
But I'm not Nick Timothy, so obviously I'm joking. My daughter goes to nursery in Salford
11:56
obviously very multicultural, even at her age, a nursery there in that area
12:01
So she knows nothing different. And I want to keep it that way as long as possible, ideally
12:07
And if they're walking around with her in Carlisle and somebody's spouting some hate, they would feel comfortable being nearer that than I would, or my daughter being nearer
12:15
that than I would. I think you'll understand this question, but I'm happy to explain it further if you don't
12:20
What do they think is wrong with you? They think, like the previous callers have said, walk, snowflake
12:26
and they actually think I've been radicalised Do they know what they mean by those words
12:31
Yeah, well they never believe when I come back with the when I've tried in the past because I've done all of that
12:38
I've gone through all the steps, the questions and tried to give the facts, that kind of thing
12:43
it's all just you can't believe that, you know, how can you believe
12:46
those people, that's not true that's and they think I've been radicalised
12:52
by my partner and her family fairly, you know, I mean Is your partner from an ethnic minority
12:59
Just remind me. She's not. No, no, she's not. OK, but they think she's the one that's come up with all these fancy ideas
13:05
Yeah, so her family are born and raised in Manchester. So in a way, I've been stolen, I've been radicalised
13:11
into a far-left socialist family. And is it... I mean, I'm really sorry, you know that
13:18
I told you that last time. But is it that everybody brown is a problem now
13:23
Have we reached that point? no the usual things come out of you know my dad had a bit of a fall on a sailing trip and he was
13:29
treated in a hospital he was he had quite a long stay in there he had physio you know all his
13:33
doctors my sister lives next to an indian family who invite them around for diwali meals and
13:38
their friends on facebook and um so they see all this horrible stuff um and no they they don think it and they live like i said they live in carlisle they in a 75 ownership socialist policy housing thing They both retired So it the barbarians in the next valley
13:56
Yeah, I guess so, yeah. When I had the conversation, I drove up to Penrith
14:01
to try and have a chat with them, and it was about the jihad
14:07
and they're not compatible with the Western world. But they don't know any of these people
14:13
and they don't encounter any of these people. They just keep being told about them and their algorithms then get re-engineered
14:19
to tell them about it constantly, constantly, constantly fighting age men rather than, for example
14:24
working age men, which might be a more normal phrase to use in that kind of context
14:28
And the presence... And as I keep saying, if it were true
14:33
if the grievances were entirely correct, nobody would need to make stuff up
14:38
Yeah, but they don't believe it's made up. They believe it. So I think they fully believe these things
14:45
I mean, and the difficulty is, and I think a bit of a distinction might be
14:50
that he's a really well-educated guy. I mean, it sounds like the guy from Glasgow
14:53
his dad also is. But, you know, went to university, well-read, studied law
14:59
All of a sudden, when we were talking about this immigration kind of thing
15:03
came out with about, I bet you're a pro-Palestinian as well, and he'd read into the history of Israel-Palestine
15:09
and I didn't understand, and he was pro-Israel. So he does go out there and seek some kind of knowledge
15:17
I think he's actually, I mean, obviously he's been a couple of years now, I don't really keep in touch, but I think he's running
15:22
or has been running to be a councillor or something, a reformed councillor up in Carlisle
15:26
Right. Is it over, do you think? Can you see any way back
15:31
I don't think so. I just wanted to call, really, and say, obviously, I know, hopefully, I'm hoping, I'm listening
15:36
I'm hoping that somebody will come up with a bit of an idea of how you said maybe we can come up with a reason of how you can fix it how you can mend it well
15:42
they'll need your help at some point perhaps even you know physically let alone emotionally and i
15:48
don't know what will you do then i mean i think i have told myself basically i'm treating myself
15:54
as the child in this i've got my own child i'm putting my 100 effort into my family and my child
15:59
until they do the same with theirs and then i don't think there's anything i can do i tried i
16:06
did really try for several years it took a lot out of me and i think ultimately what i came to is i
16:11
could try and fight and fight and fight now maybe seek some therapy to help me through it right but
16:16
actually ultimately what i've told myself is if it gets to that point and i feel guilty of them
16:20
not being in my life in the last kind of years then i'll seek some therapy to deal with the guilt
16:25
that comes with that well do what's always i mean again i'm not in any position to give anybody any
16:30
advice except to do what's best for you i suppose as opposed to second guessing what might be best
16:35
for other people. It's a horrible picture that you paint and I'm sure you're doing grand by
16:39
your daughter, but it's an absence in her life that no one would want to have
16:45
isn't it? Least of all you. And yet there comes a point where there is more negativity
16:49
coming into a relationship than positivity and unless you cut the umbilical
16:53
then you make things worse, not better. Listen, theoretical universe, if you just got them offline for a week
17:04
do you reckon it'd be alright? or is it too far gone? It's too bad? He's a pretty stubborn guy
17:09
but yeah, definitely Facebook. He's really active on Facebook. I don't follow him anymore
17:13
but I met up with a couple of friends in the park the other day for a walk and she said she sees things on there
17:18
all the time, basically. In fact, when we were having that conversation, there's a bit of a sad element to it
17:23
Me and this friend were talking. I was carrying on my daughter and she said, oh, will your dad do this
17:27
And she said, dad. And my daughter looked at me and said, who's your dad
17:31
Oh, Lord. So, you know, she doesn't have a granddad. care enough? I mean, to even just
17:36
keep a lid on it when he's with you? Or would it..
17:40
To be completely fair to him, I think that became a... They said that
17:44
politics should be separate. We should be able to be have a relationship and keep it separate. I think it was me
17:48
who said that was kind of fine with the Brexit, that was fine with the comments in
17:52
Piccadilly Gardens, but travelling past Manchester from Carlisle, past your granddaughter to go to a Tommy Robinson match
17:59
you know, alright, you can do what you want with your time, it's your life, but you're a retiree. So, yeah
18:04
You make your choice. Yeah, you're letting go of hope. You're letting go of hope
18:08
How often do I say on the program that hope is the thing that gets you, the despair you can deal with
18:13
And that is the right thing to do, to look after yourself, to protect yourself and to protect others
18:18
So you let go of hope. And, of course, you are still reachable
18:22
but you are no longer reaching out
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