Diving The Andrea Doria with DV Tenacious

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You're the only dive boat that is
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consistently regularly diving the Andrea
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Doria. Deep wreck exploration in the
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North Atlantic requires more than just
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technical diving skills. The wreck is so
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vast you could be
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300, 400 ft out in the debris field.
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Their expeditions regularly target some
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of the most challenging dives in the
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North Atlantic. The current is another
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again huge challenge. Today I'm talking
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with the team from the famous dive boat
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D.V. Tenacious. We are a group of people
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who are just passionate about locating,
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diving, and salvaging artifacts from
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shipwrecks. Fantastic to have you here
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with us today, guys. If you could just
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introduce yourself, please. Sure, I'm
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Jen Saledi. I am the captain of D.V.
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Tenacious. I'm Chris Ogden. I am nothing
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but a crew member of D.V. Tenacious.
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And one of the divers, of course, Chris.
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We can't We can't
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>> divers.
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So, for people who don't know, please
1:00
tell us tell us about D.V. Tenacious.
1:02
How do you work? All those kind of
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things. Cuz you're not a a commercial
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boat. I think that's a really important
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place to start, isn't it? Yeah, so we
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are we are not a charter dive operation.
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We were started in 2010
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by Captain Joe Mazraani who bought the
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boat for deep shipwreck exploration in
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on the eastern seaboard. So, we're
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located in New Jersey, which is northern
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north northeast. So, near Massachusetts,
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Connecticut, New York, and we operate as
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far as Delaware, Virginia area up until
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up until Massachusetts and and off the
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coast of Massachusetts.
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So, we are a group of people who are
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just passionate about locating, diving,
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and salvaging artifacts from shipwrecks.
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And that's what we've been doing since
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2010.
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Absolutely awesome. And and how long
1:54
have you both been involved with the
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team? And been a lot longer than I have.
1:58
I mean, Jen, what what am I now on six,
2:00
seven years on a six years on the boat?
2:03
Okay, let me count my gray hairs.
2:05
Um
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No, I think
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I think Chris joined us in about 2019.
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Um so, Joe Mazraani founded bought the
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boat and founded Atlantic Wreck Salvage
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and DB Tenacious in 2010.
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Um I met him in 2015, so I've been
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involved since 2015. And Chris came on
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board, I think it was probably 2018,
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2019 in that time frame. I think it'd be
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uh great to hear about, you know, some
2:32
of the dives that you've done. You're
2:33
most famous really for the Andrea Doria,
2:36
which is kind of one of those wrecks
2:37
that everybody in the world has heard
2:39
of. Um and you guys do it really
2:41
regularly, don't you? Yeah, so we have
2:43
been diving the Andrea Doria uh since uh
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many of the people on the boat have been
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diving the Andrea Doria since like the
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1980s and 1990s.
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Um the boat has been going there since
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uh it was founded in 2010.
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Uh almost every summer, I think we
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missed maybe one or two summers in that
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time period for various reasons, but I
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think it's fair to say we are the only
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dive boat that is consistently,
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regularly diving the Andrea Doria. And
3:09
two of the salvors in possession, Tom
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Packer and Steve Gatto, routinely dive
3:14
the Doria with us. I and and I'm I'm I'm
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going to turn it to Chris to talk about
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what it is like to dive the Andrea
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Doria, but I think um the important
3:22
thing for us is that it has such a
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tremendous place in northeast wreck
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diving history. There are so many people
3:31
that decided to start diving, decided to
3:33
start going further offshore, decided to
3:35
push the boundaries of mixed gas and
3:39
equipment in order to be able to reach
3:42
the Doria, to dive the Doria, and then
3:43
to stay on the Doria longer. So, it is a
3:45
rite of passage for northeast wreck
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northeast wreck divers to dive the
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Doria.
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And Chris is one of many people who dive
3:54
the Andrea for the first time on our
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vessel. And one of my favorite things is
3:58
always seeing people come up from diving
4:01
the Andrea for the first time and that
4:02
look in their eye that is just so much
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different than any other wreck that we
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dive.
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So I got then Chris, tell us what's it
4:10
like?
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Well, before that, I I believe we're the
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only boat that dives the Andrea now for
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the last couple of years. There was a
4:17
couple of charter boats.
4:20
I mean, one from when I first started,
4:22
the John Jack, they went out and then I
4:24
believe it was just um a boat called the
4:26
Old Salty run by Nick Caruso.
4:29
When I started diving the Andrea, I want
4:31
to say he did about two trips.
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Um and that was it. And
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you know, he he's had so many deaths on
4:38
the boat, especially from the Andrea,
4:41
that he kind of
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he leans more towards fishing now and if
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it doesn't matter the money doesn't
4:46
matter to him.
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If he doesn't know who you are,
4:50
you're not on it, right? So anybody
4:52
could sign up and he's out of that year
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and now it's just yeah, he's he's
4:55
leaning towards not doing it at all. So
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I would say that we're the only boat
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that does the Andrea for the last, I
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don't know, probably 5 6 years now. Cuz
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it's a long it is a long way out, isn't
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it? I think that's one of the things
5:05
that people don't appreciate is is just
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how far out it is. So for us, we we used
5:10
to go from Montauk Montauk Montauk Point
5:13
and back in the day that was the launch
5:14
point. It's 100 miles from Montauk. From
5:16
New Bedford, it's about 90 miles. We
5:19
started going back to New Bedford going
5:20
to New Bedford for these trips a few
5:22
years ago. Um and it's funny because we
5:25
used to say that that was a long way
5:27
away
5:28
until we started doing stuff much much
5:30
further offshore. And in the last couple
5:32
of years it's been, oh, you know, we'll
5:34
just start on the Andrea or it's close,
5:36
it's just the Andrea.
5:38
So
5:39
uh I think distance like depth is a
5:43
matter of perspective, time, and
5:44
experience. So it is far, it is
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logistically challenging. It is, you
5:50
know, far to go on a dive boat, but it
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is about
5:54
half to a little less than half of the
5:56
distance of some of the other wrecks
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that we're diving.
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Wow. But But you're not going out there
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and back in a single day, are you?
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You're going out there for a period of
6:04
time and you're living on the boat and
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you're I I I guess it's almost like a it
6:07
is a liveaboard dive boat, isn't it, in
6:09
that sense?
6:10
Yeah, so we'll go out and we will stay
6:13
out there 4 days if we can.
6:15
Um that's a typical trip uh to the
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Andrea Doria. We try to get 4 days in um
6:22
if we can, sometimes three, but we
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wouldn't go unless we were getting at
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least 3 days.
6:26
Right. Okay. And so So, you know, if
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you're going out to those further
6:30
wrecks, you go out, do the Andrea Doria
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on the way out, then get out there,
6:34
couple of dives there, and then Andrea
6:35
Doria on the way back. Is that the way
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it works? No, we typically will only do
6:40
one or sometimes two wrecks on those
6:42
trips. So, if we're doing the Doria,
6:43
we're anchored to the Doria for 3 or 4
6:45
days. Okay. And we're doing multiple
6:47
dives on the Doria. So, we would be
6:49
doing um we would you know, let's say
6:52
we're leaving on a Thursday, we leave on
6:53
a Thursday night, we get there on
6:54
Friday, dive in the morning, dive in the
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afternoon, Saturday dive in the morning,
6:59
dive in the afternoon, Sunday dive in
7:01
the morning, and then we would start to
7:02
head back after um after those dives in
7:06
the morning. So, we're getting multiple
7:09
dives on the wreck while we're out
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there.
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Wow. Okay. And you'll got the guys would
7:14
it Is there any guys diving in the
7:15
morning and the afternoon? Would they do
7:17
two dives on it for a day?
7:19
Yeah, so on the Doria we'll do two dives
7:20
a day. Generally, um
7:23
when it's around 250, 260, I don't know
7:26
what that is in meters.
7:28
Sorry.
7:29
Um we'll do two dives a day. When we get
7:31
closer to 300 ft or more than 300 ft,
7:33
we'll do one. Yeah, okay. So, I can
7:36
Yeah, okay. Cuz I mean, my understanding
7:37
of the Doria area is about 60-ish meters
7:40
to the seabed. So, I guess what 200 ft
7:44
What have thought.
7:45
>> 240 240, okay. Okay, then more than 70 m
7:48
maybe. Yeah, okay. And it's collapsing.
7:50
So, you used to be able to hit the deck
7:52
a lot shallower than that, but now the
7:54
the highest point you're hitting at
7:55
about 200 ft now. I have heard that. You
7:57
mean all the wrecks over here exactly
7:59
the same as well. They're all collapsing
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in. They're all changing quite
8:02
dramatically. And ours by and large are
8:03
much older but than yours, so it's
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really interesting to hear that you've
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got the same thing. Okay, Chris, so tell
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us what's it like to dive the Andrea
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Doria? People do say that it's not
8:14
the Mount Everest of shipwreck dive
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anymore. And to me that that's because
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of
8:18
I believe they're talking about depth.
8:20
And no, it's not in that aspect. I mean,
8:22
we have a lot deeper wrecks
8:24
that we dive
8:26
that I to me I wouldn't consider nearly
8:28
as challenging as the Doria. Um you have
8:31
something 4 or 500 ft tropical what what
8:33
we consider tropical water.
8:35
And that's not you know, it's
8:38
you have the physiological effect of
8:40
that, but not
8:41
you don't have the conditions. You don't
8:43
have all of that.
8:45
The Doria to me, whether you know,
8:48
whether what other people say
8:50
it still is the Mount Everest to me. I
8:52
still respect it more than any other
8:54
wreck that I've dove in deeper water.
8:57
Um and it's because of the mix of you
8:59
know, the mix of things that you get.
9:00
You get
9:01
you get the low the low visibility. You
9:03
have a distance. You have the current.
9:05
You have
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just the vastness of the wreck. You've
9:08
got the sharks. Don't forget about the
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sharks.
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Um
9:13
we always tend to watch shark videos out
9:15
there about the Andrea Doria.
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That's true.
9:18
Um
9:19
you have all these different things. The
9:21
current's one of the biggest things.
9:23
It's like a light switch. You could it
9:25
could be rough as hell out there and you
9:28
can you know, you could be thinking to
9:29
yourself, "Oh, it must be it must be
9:30
really shitty under the water."
9:31
Actually, it happened to one of our crew
9:33
members on our his first Doria trip his
9:35
first Doria trip.
9:37
Um, which was last season, Brandon.
9:41
And he's looking at the surface and he's
9:42
like, "Oh my god." He jumps in.
9:46
He goes down, he does a dive with me.
9:48
And uh
9:49
comes up and and Joe asks him, he goes,
9:51
"So, how was it? How was your first
9:53
Doria dive?" Brandon goes,
9:55
"That wasn't bad."
9:57
And I was like, "Oh man, this guy."
9:59
You know, and the second I had the
10:02
second dive of the day,
10:04
the swells are down. It was like, Jen,
10:07
you remember it was it was pretty damn
10:08
calm out there, right?
10:10
>> Mhm.
10:11
It was nice and calm and now Brandon's
10:13
all, you know, he's all cocky about it.
10:16
And he jumps in.
10:18
And I'll tell you, he got up from that
10:20
dive.
10:21
And Joe goes, "How was it?"
10:24
And he goes, "That was the true Doria
10:26
experience." He was like, "Holy shit."
10:31
But yeah, it's
10:33
it's so many things. It's like you have
10:35
Dom, the the really low visibility. The
10:38
wreck's so vast and you can only see
10:39
about 30 ft of it, 40 if we're lucky
10:42
at a time. It's always pitch black.
10:45
Um, you know, I always heard stories
10:46
about
10:48
the older guys, well, you know, our
10:50
mentors, the guys that still dive with
10:52
us,
10:53
about what it was back, you know, what
10:54
it was back in the day. And they they
10:56
talk about all this great viz and all
10:57
that. I have never seen it.
10:59
Um
11:01
The current's another again, huge
11:03
challenge and that's not just because
11:05
it's current, where are you on the
11:06
wreck?
11:07
The wreck's so vast, you could be
11:10
300, 400 ft out in the debris field.
11:13
And
11:15
if you don't have your scooter with you,
11:17
good luck getting back to that anchor
11:19
line.
11:20
You know, um
11:22
And that was one of the big things that
11:24
Joe would always preach was the scooter
11:26
wasn't just for towing around.
11:29
The The was a safety net.
11:32
Right? Even if you stowed it. And I
11:33
always use mine to either taxi down
11:36
and to where I'm going, stow it away,
11:39
and then taxi back. And if I need it, I
11:41
have it. But it's stowed.
11:44
Uh so, you have the visibility, the lack
11:46
of, you have the current.
11:49
You feel like, you know, an ant on this
11:52
wreck just because of the you know, the
11:54
the vastness of the debris fields.
11:57
Um
11:59
The debris field on a on a typical wreck
12:00
that we dive, probably same as you,
12:04
I don't know, 4 or 5 6-ft tall?
12:08
Talking debris coming off the bottom.
12:10
You're out on the Doria and let's say
12:12
you're out 200-ft off the wreck. She's
12:14
laying on her side.
12:16
That debris field can come up 50-60-ft
12:18
off the bottom.
12:20
And that's just because the decks have
12:21
fanned out. So, it's not really a debris
12:23
field, it's still wreckage, but it sure
12:25
looks like one.
12:28
Um
12:29
You have the cold.
12:31
Right? Uh
12:32
You get the annoying sharks all the
12:34
time. I think they're funny.
12:35
It's not It's not that funny because
12:38
when we're hanging at, water's pretty
12:39
damn murky.
12:41
You know, and I I remember this one of
12:43
our other guys, Joe Sena Mod, on one of
12:45
his dives. He thought
12:47
He's over there hanging at 20-ft and he
12:50
sees this monster shadow come by.
12:53
And he thought it was the biggest great
12:54
white he'd ever saw.
12:56
Turn out to be a basking shark, which
12:58
was a monster.
13:00
It was a pretty big basking shark.
13:03
Until you know they're a basking shark,
13:04
they are absolutely terrifying cuz
13:06
they're big and they move the way they
13:09
move is kind of intimidating as well.
13:11
So, yeah, no, I'm absolutely I'm with
13:13
you on that one. So, tell us about the
13:15
the compass and Chris cuz obviously
13:16
that's, you know, one of the absolutely
13:18
epic recent finds that you guys made on
13:20
the uh on the Andrea Doria. So, the
13:23
compass
13:25
for what I thought
13:27
I mean I I couldn't even contain myself
13:30
when I thought I found it. I thought I
13:33
was the one to find it.
13:35
I was screaming. I was I never pull my
13:37
weight. I'm surprised I had my weight
13:39
now cuz I never carried the damn things.
13:41
And I definitely never rode on them. But
13:43
man, on my hang, I was going nuts
13:47
telling everybody about it.
13:49
And I'm saying there's no way we have a
13:51
thing on, you know, on our wrecks where
13:54
it's the same crew all the time.
13:56
We're diving all these wrecks that
13:57
nobody else does.
13:58
So you don't worry about another boat
14:00
coming by and and grabbing new
14:02
artifacts. It's just not even a thing.
14:05
So, what we do is we'll tag artifacts.
14:09
Right? It's a simple it's cookie it's a
14:10
it's it's a line arrow it's whatever it
14:12
is. You want to drop your reel on it.
14:14
If you do that, you know that we were
14:16
the only ones out there. The rest of the
14:17
crews know, you know, they know not to
14:19
screw with that. You're working on it.
14:21
Um
14:23
So, I I I go by Well, I'll tell you how
14:26
it happened.
14:28
Joe's in the water first. And Jen, who
14:30
is Joe diving with that day? Probably
14:32
Tom. I think Tom Becker, yeah.
14:35
So Joe goes down to the wreck first.
14:37
He's diving with Tom.
14:39
And Mike Dude is I'm sorry. Mike Dude is
14:41
ran a reel out. It was the first time I
14:43
ever dove the bow side of the wreck. I
14:46
All my dives are on the stern half.
14:48
And I remember talking to Joe the winter
14:50
before and I was like, "Dude, can we
14:51
just do the bow? I've never been there."
14:53
He goes, "You've never been in the bow?"
14:54
I said, "No."
14:55
He goes, "All right, we'll do the bow."
14:57
So we go to the bow. Dude is runs a
14:59
line.
15:00
Just a main line like a gold line in the
15:02
cave.
15:03
And uh
15:04
you know, I follow it.
15:06
Again, Joe's down there with Tom.
15:08
They're coming up. I pass them.
15:10
Of course Joe doesn't say anything to
15:11
me.
15:12
I pass him by and I'm follow I you know,
15:15
we jump the break. There's a huge break
15:16
on the Doria between the stern and the
15:18
bow.
15:20
So I jump this break.
15:22
I'm going down the line, going down the
15:23
line, never saw these areas before.
15:26
And something to my right really caught
15:28
my eye. I mean, it just really stood
15:30
out. It looked like a barn door.
15:32
It was like wood slats and it had an X
15:35
that went through it. It was in this
15:36
hole. It was
15:39
a non-inviting place. Let's put it that
15:42
way. But there was this this hatch or
15:44
barn door looking thing and I'm like,
15:45
"What the hell is that?"
15:47
And it was probably like 20 ft off the
15:49
line.
15:50
So, Brandon's diving with me on that
15:52
dive.
15:53
I look at him. I'm like, "Hey, I'm going
15:55
to go that way.
15:56
Stay here." So, I go over there.
16:00
Oh, and by the way, I've been looking
16:01
for another Lido deck window.
16:03
I got one a few years ago and I wanted
16:06
another.
16:07
So, that's what I was looking for on
16:09
these dives. That and China.
16:12
And um
16:14
I see this thing. I go off to the right,
16:16
poke my head in there.
16:18
And what do I find? I mean, it's first
16:20
of all, it's this little area. It's a
16:22
crushed down It's not a room. It's It's
16:24
just It made its own room. It's this
16:26
crushed down area
16:28
with a pile of debris there. I mean, you
16:30
had whole plates. You had just
16:31
everything that you can imagine. Cables,
16:33
everything that you could think of, Don.
16:35
And I'm looking in there and it it
16:37
looked like a bunch of loose pieces of
16:38
paper, all these whole plates. And I see
16:41
it.
16:42
There's a Lido deck window on its side.
16:45
Not as pretty as the first one I found
16:47
because the glass is broken, but I'm
16:48
like, "That's a Lido deck window."
16:51
Now, I'm like, "How do I get this out of
16:52
here?"
16:54
But where I went in, there was one area.
16:56
There was one spot that you can get in
16:58
and get out.
16:59
But where this thing was, it was all the
17:01
way down and to the left. And I'm like,
17:03
"Man, this would be a real job to get
17:05
drag this thing out of here with all
17:07
these cables hanging."
17:10
So, I'm scanning with my light. I'm I'm
17:12
making a little trail on how I would do
17:14
it over the next couple of dives, what
17:16
I'd have to clear out.
17:18
And I was um panning with my light
17:21
right underneath me,
17:24
I looked and I was like,
17:27
"Holy That
17:29
that's the compass."
17:31
So now I'm like, "Screw the Lido deck
17:32
window. I'll look what's under me." You
17:34
know,
17:35
I'm flipping out. I'm like, now I'm
17:37
hyperventilating. I'm like, "All right,
17:38
Chris, stop, you idiot.
17:40
Compose yourself."
17:42
And I'm screaming. Brandon's 40 ft away
17:45
from me. He has no idea what's going on.
17:47
And I'm screaming,
17:49
I blow out of a hole and I'm
17:52
I like being very clean and neat, you
17:54
know, when I dive and I'm not working on
17:56
something. But no, I came out there,
17:57
blew the whole goddamn thing out,
17:59
running back out to the main line,
18:01
take my line and I put a jump off of
18:03
that, I run back into the room and I
18:05
drop my reel.
18:07
And I go, "Marked it.
18:09
That's marked. It's mine."
18:12
I come back out and I'm screaming.
18:14
Brandon has no idea what I'm screaming
18:15
about.
18:17
Well, I do that a lot, so he just kind
18:19
of just goes with it. Figures it out on
18:20
the surface.
18:22
And I'm like, "Let's go. We're going
18:23
up."
18:24
So we go up. We're starting on the hang
18:27
and I I pull up I pull my wet notes out
18:29
of my pocket and I'm like, "I found the
18:31
compass. I found the compass."
18:33
And I'm showing him.
18:35
And I can't wait to get up and tell Joe.
18:38
Me and Joe I I I think me and Joe always
18:40
have like this little secret competition
18:42
going on.
18:43
But I always like I sh- He's always been
18:45
like
18:48
He has
18:49
the eye of a damn hawk.
18:51
So whenever you know, whenever we're out
18:53
on a wreck, he finds the stuff and I'm
18:54
like, "How the hell did you find that?"
18:57
So this time I'm like, "I got him. I got
19:00
him."
19:03
And I, you know, it was the longest hang
19:05
ever cuz I can't wait to tell him.
19:08
And I'm climbing a ladder and I look
19:09
over at Joe and I was like, "We got a
19:11
lot of work to do, Joe."
19:14
He's cleaning something as he normally
19:16
would be doing. He looks over at me and
19:17
goes,
19:19
"What did you find, Chris?"
19:21
I was like, "I FOUND THE CONTENTS OF
19:23
IT." HE GOES,
19:26
HE GOES, "So did I."
19:30
I lost it. I was like, "There's no I was
19:32
like, there's no way you found it.
19:34
There's no way you I was like, tell me
19:36
where it is. How would you get it out of
19:37
that spot?" I was like, "There's no way
19:39
you Nobody would even go there." I was
19:41
like, "Why would anybody go there?"
19:44
He goes, "Oh my god." He goes, "If I had
19:46
to get it out of that spot," he goes,
19:47
"it would have to come up this way, and
19:49
I'd have to rig something this way, then
19:51
it would have to come over that
19:52
overhead, which is that way." And I'm
19:54
like, "You Oh my god."
19:57
I was like, "He knows exactly what he's
19:59
looking at."
20:01
I mean, I He Of course he knows what
20:03
he's looking at, but I thought he was
20:04
bullshitting.
20:06
And I'm like, "Oh my god."
20:08
I'm not going to lie, I was pretty upset
20:11
for all of 20 seconds because how of how
20:13
excited I was that whole dive.
20:16
But I was like, "All right.
20:18
It's coming up.
20:19
That's coming up. And this is dive
20:22
two now, right, Jen?" So, after after
20:24
Chris came up and we had a good laugh at
20:28
his expense about the fact that Joe
20:29
found it first. Um Chris was like, "It's
20:32
coming up. It's coming up this trip.
20:34
It's coming up." And Joe like pulled me
20:36
aside, he said, "There's no way this
20:38
thing is coming up this trip."
20:40
It was It was a substantial
20:42
project. And he didn't want to bring it
20:45
up. I could tell he wanted to look for
20:46
other things as he was like, "It's not
20:48
happening today. We got to figure out
20:49
how we're going to do it." But Chris was
20:52
so excited that eventually he just like
20:55
sucked Joe into his excitement, and
20:57
Chris is the reason that it came up,
20:59
honestly.
21:00
So, so one that one then, just just a
21:02
question. For I guess for you, Jen, is
21:04
so you're on the boat by yourself, is
21:06
that right? Um on those trips I always
21:09
make sure that there's somebody up there
21:10
with me because we're too far offshore
21:12
if something happens cuz we're anchored
21:14
to the wreck. So we we hook the wreck.
21:17
So if something happens and somebody
21:18
needs to jump in the chase boat,
21:20
somebody needs to be with the boat. Um
21:22
so we
21:24
we on those offshore trips there's
21:26
always two people on deck and actually
21:29
quite frankly when whenever we're doing
21:31
dive trips we have two people on the
21:32
boat just because you can't there's an
21:34
emergency one person is never going to
21:36
be able to handle it especially if they
21:38
have to get in the chase boat in a
21:39
current like that you have to get in the
21:41
chase boat and you got to go after
21:42
somebody. Um so I always have somebody
21:45
up there with me. Clearly Chris is going
21:47
to tell us he went down there, put all
21:49
this work in, dragged it out, got it
21:52
round the corner, got it up and
21:53
everything and then obviously sends it
21:55
up to the surface and goes way my job
21:57
here is done.
21:59
Then of course the really hard bit
22:01
starts which is which is probably the
22:03
bit that involves getting it onto the
22:04
boat. The part the part the part that
22:06
almost broke my finger on this one.
22:08
Yes I was crashing into the thing
22:10
holding on to it. We do not have a lift.
22:13
Okay. No no you don't not a diver lift
22:15
you've got a a crane or something.
22:16
>> a yeah we have an A-frame. We have an
22:18
A-frame on the back of the boat. So what
22:20
we do is it's connected you know we it
22:22
comes up on the lift bag and then it's
22:25
this this time we tied a line to it so
22:27
it was tied to the boat. It was
22:28
drifting.
22:30
I think Chris came up at that point.
22:33
Yeah.
22:33
>> And I was holding on to it
22:36
while Chris went out and rigged it so
22:38
that we could safely pull it closer to
22:39
the boat and it was one of those things
22:42
where the current just turned on. So I'm
22:44
pulling it close to the boat. I'm
22:45
pulling it by myself back to the boat.
22:47
There was another guy up there but I
22:49
don't know what he was doing. I was
22:50
pulling it closer to the boat and all of
22:52
a sudden the current just took that
22:53
thing like a sail and took me from the
22:55
middle of the boat all the way to the
22:58
back to where the A-frame is and I
22:59
crashed my hand like my whole knuckle
23:01
was scarred. I
23:03
for like a couple of weeks I couldn't
23:05
bend my arm. I'm like holding onto this
23:07
thing like a sail. So you you bled for
23:09
that compass. I did bleed for that
23:12
compass. Absolutely. I thought my finger
23:14
was broken.
23:15
I'm going to put it out there. I bet
23:16
nobody ever talks about that bit.
23:21
Cuz that's
23:22
that's the joy of being a that's joy joy
23:24
of being a dive boat skipper, isn't it?
23:25
Cuz all the none of the glamour ever
23:27
happens on the surface. It all happens
23:29
all happens in the in the water. So So I
23:32
I guess how many dives did it take you
23:34
to get it out then, Chris? So it was
23:37
after that second dive it was three more
23:39
dives. We had five dives on the trip.
23:41
Wow. And it was not easy by any means. I
23:44
mean we you know we I would say we lost
23:46
faith a couple of times, but you know
23:48
one guy would and the other guy would be
23:49
like, "No, it's coming." You know, it'd
23:50
be vice versa.
23:52
And it was a new plan every time. It was
23:54
like, "All right, well that I'm not
23:55
going to say that didn't work. We made
23:56
progress on every dive.
23:59
Significant progress.
24:01
After that dive
24:04
that I said we're going to get it
24:06
me and Joe made a plan that, "All right,
24:08
well there's two potential exits from
24:11
that area.
24:13
The way that we think it's going to come
24:14
out is covered by nets.
24:18
So our next dive was just to go down
24:21
me and him cut all those nets away and
24:23
get that drug far
24:26
out of our way because we were going to
24:27
salt it out when we were in there
24:28
working pulling all these whole plates
24:30
out and all of that.
24:32
So we didn't want that to be a thing. So
24:33
we we went down there. We made quick
24:35
work of a net.
24:37
Um
24:38
and then we got to
24:40
pulling just whole plates and my my Lido
24:43
deck window was one of the piece of
24:44
debris that was flying out the room and
24:46
nobody cared about you know and I didn't
24:48
either.
24:49
Um and we made a little assembly line
24:52
with two people. I I was pulling
24:53
and I throw it behind me and here's Joe
24:56
and he grabs that and he throws it
24:57
further.
24:59
And I mean we excavated
25:01
I mean it was it was nuts how much we
25:04
pulled out of this this area.
25:07
So we were able to see the base of this
25:09
thing.
25:10
Um
25:12
and that was deceiving from what we saw
25:14
before. It was a lot bigger base than
25:15
what we thought it was.
25:17
We were able to find out it was draped
25:19
in cables. So you had you know the tape
25:21
the taper down. There was cables draped
25:24
around both sides of this thing. So
25:26
we're like all right, those aren't just
25:27
wires.
25:29
They're cables. They're not ropes.
25:31
We cleared most of that out.
25:33
Um so you know we came up the next dive
25:35
we we grabbed
25:36
crowbars and we grabbed cable cutters
25:39
and we grabbed a bunch of stuff.
25:41
You know and Joe Joe ended up taping a
25:43
knife like a Rambo knife to a bolt pole.
25:46
It was such a constricting area to get
25:48
into.
25:50
Put it this way. I told Joe if I go down
25:52
there with all the the pieces of debris
25:55
that are jutting out. If I'm able to
25:57
squeeze myself down there.
25:59
You're going to have you can't leave.
26:00
You're going to have to pull me out by
26:02
my fins as I clear things as you're
26:04
pulling me. Cuz I know I'm going to get
26:06
caught like a Chinese finger trap.
26:09
And talking about putting your life in
26:11
somebody's hands because I couldn't get
26:12
out there I couldn't get out by myself.
26:14
Wow.
26:14
>> Um and that's what it took.
26:16
And um Joe's rigging is you know
26:20
multiple straps.
26:21
Uh I think it was like a 2,000 lb bag
26:24
that we put on it. Well, I forgot what
26:25
it was. It was a huge bag that we put on
26:27
it.
26:28
Um you know it took an 80 to fill it.
26:31
And just
26:32
you know shifting it this way and then
26:35
putting the strap down, bringing the
26:36
strap out the other side of the room,
26:37
picking the base up.
26:39
Seeing which way she naturally would
26:40
come out.
26:42
Um and on the fifth dive
26:45
we got it.
26:46
And
26:47
and Joe Joe throws me his we have a if
26:50
we we carry emergency upline. So like I
26:52
don't know what kind of reels you guys
26:53
use there. I think you use Kent, right?
26:55
Yeah. Yeah. But, we use light monkey.
26:58
And there's a 1,200-ft light monkey
27:01
reel.
27:02
And we'll take all the cave line off of
27:03
that, we'll put paracord 550 on it.
27:06
So, it's just a more
27:08
you know, significant more substantial
27:10
line to hold as an emergency upline. If
27:12
we have to shoot a bag, cut it, tie it
27:14
to the wreck, there's our upline if we
27:16
got lost. Joe throws me that reel, and
27:18
he goes, "I got to get out of here." He
27:20
goes, "You got it? Can you send it?" I
27:22
said, "Yes, I'll send it up."
27:24
And that was it. Came up.
27:27
>> At the surface, we thought that it was
27:28
Chris's Lido deck window, because we
27:30
knew that there was Lido deck window
27:31
down there that he wanted. And when he
27:33
came up,
27:34
I said I remember leaning over and
27:36
saying to Chris, "It's the window,
27:37
right?" And he goes, "No." He's like,
27:39
"We've got it." He was like banging on
27:41
the back of the deck.
27:42
It was really exciting. You mainly fill
27:44
the bag. You then send up a a line with
27:48
a with a buoy on it.
27:51
And then you get that that onto the
27:52
boat, and then when all the divers are
27:54
up, that's when you then pull it and get
27:55
it to the surface. Is that correct?
27:58
>> yeah. Yeah.
27:59
>> Yeah, okay. So, then you go
28:00
>> down to the wreck.
28:01
So, I put I put his upline on it, right?
28:03
So, we Joe put a breakaway on it, so
28:06
when it shot out of the wreck, it
28:07
wouldn't go up uncontrolled. Yeah.
28:09
>> Right? So, when it came out of the the
28:11
overhead, it would still be tied down to
28:13
the wreck.
28:15
So, that was our breakaway.
28:17
And
28:18
from there, when Joe left, I would take
28:20
his upline.
28:21
I would tie it to the bottom of the bag.
28:24
Get everything clear. Make sure I wasn't
28:27
in the way, make sure it wasn't going to
28:28
catch anything. Get everything situated,
28:30
all the stuff cleaned up, all the tools.
28:33
And then once everything would be clear,
28:34
I would go, and I would cut the upline
28:36
with the reel in my you know, my right
28:37
or my left hand, whatever it was.
28:40
And I'd send it. So, the reel screaming
28:41
out of my hand,
28:43
I know it's on the surface, just like if
28:45
an SMB hits the surface. Pull some slack
28:47
out, tie it down to the wreck.
28:51
Now she's not drifting away. While, you
28:53
know, everybody's getting sorted on
28:55
you know, top side.
28:56
Yeah, okay. Okay, so it's really
28:58
interesting. It's it's not a technique
29:00
that we use, but then obviously our
29:02
diving procedures are different to yours
29:03
anyway because we never anchor into a
29:05
wall wreck. We don't use up lines. We
29:07
always use drifting
29:10
lazy shot systems and everything. So it
29:11
is it is it is very different. Actually,
29:13
this might be a good point to talk about
29:15
the systems that you use. I guess you've
29:17
explained a bit already. You anchor into
29:19
the wreck and then do Is it the anchor
29:20
line that people go up and down or do
29:22
you put another line on the wreck?
29:24
Another line. So a traverse line, a
29:25
Carolina Carolina rig we call it.
29:28
What do you call your you have your lazy
29:30
shot? And the lazy shot, is it not like
29:33
the Carolina rig that we have? So we
29:35
have a All right.
29:37
So we have our anchor line. Yeah. Go
29:39
ahead, Jen. Oh, no, I was saying cuz
29:41
with the with the lazy shot, you then it
29:43
goes free and the boat stays with the
29:45
people. Okay. water. So you're kind of
29:48
drifting.
29:49
Um
29:50
yeah. It is a very different system. So
29:52
you you have your you're anchored into
29:54
the wreck. You put down a a line
29:57
that goes onto the wreck and that's what
29:59
you another line that's what you would
30:01
send to descend. And is that that's at
30:02
the back of the boat, is it?
30:04
Right.
30:05
Yeah, okay. That must mean I guess when
30:08
you're doing your decompression that
30:09
you're in quite a lot of current.
30:12
Yep. So you're kind of using John lines
30:15
or whatever to hold on.
30:17
Exactly. John lines, I mean when there's
30:19
no current we'll
30:21
we hang off the line Jen.
30:23
No, no, go ahead. Go ahead.
30:25
A few of us
30:27
like to hang off the line free.
30:29
Right? So you anticipate current, you
30:32
kind of know where you're at.
30:34
You know that if you're over the Doria,
30:35
you're not you're not 20 ft 30 ft off
30:37
the line. You're within a couple of feet
30:39
of the line. Just in case that current
30:40
turns up or when it does,
30:42
you're able to grab it.
30:44
And we also have our scooters on us, but
30:46
those could fail, right? The likelihood
30:47
is slim, but they could.
30:50
And if you you get blown off out there,
30:51
you're a hundred and something miles
30:52
offshore, good luck. And it has
30:54
happened. It has happened where we have
30:56
had people come up and just like
31:00
you don't think the human body can move
31:02
that fast in a current and just get just
31:04
go. So, I I'm always on them because I
31:07
freak out if I can't see them. If
31:08
they're if they're if they're 20 ft or
31:11
10 ft and they're moving so far away
31:12
from the line that I can't see them,
31:15
somebody gets a talking to. How far down
31:17
can you see divers then, Jen?
31:20
Depends on the day. I mean, there's
31:21
times I can see them at the stop on the
31:23
Carolina at 40 ft on the Carolina. Most
31:26
most often I really can't. I can see
31:29
fins, so I can say, "Okay, there's the
31:30
green fins, there's the blue fins,
31:32
there's something." Like I can
31:34
I can see fins at like 40 ft usually,
31:38
but usually it's like 20
31:40
30, 20 ft is when I can really start to
31:42
see what's going on down there. I I
31:44
guess you don't know where all your
31:45
divers are until they get to that point
31:47
in that case. Yeah. And And you I think
31:50
you said you had a chase boat, so
31:52
presumably the chase boat is there if
31:53
you see a a bag coming up off the back
31:55
of the boat, somebody gets in the in the
31:57
chase boat and goes and follows it. Is
31:59
that right? Yeah, so the chase boat
32:02
if somebody is really drifted it kind of
32:04
depends on what the situation is.
32:06
But yes, if somebody is in distress in
32:08
the water or there's an artifact that
32:10
somebody floats and it's floating free,
32:11
we can jump in the chase boat and go and
32:14
grab it. I have to say the the idea of
32:16
doing decompression in strong currents
32:19
sounds horrible to me. You know,
32:20
question for you, you know, we have this
32:22
system that works really well. I guess
32:24
why don't you use it? What Why do you,
32:26
you know, use a system that you do? I
32:28
mean, I think that yeah, I mean, you
32:30
know, and and sometimes the answer is
32:31
because we've always done it that way.
32:32
It's a good question.
32:34
I was going to I that. You got the old
32:36
school and the new school. But also
32:38
where we're diving predominantly, like
32:40
when we're diving off the coast of New
32:41
Jersey, we're not it's it's not like
32:44
massive currents the way you have. I
32:45
mean, you have with my understanding and
32:47
I mean, we were at the Lusitania and
32:49
some other places over there, but my
32:51
understanding is that you pretty much
32:52
have currents all the time.
32:55
We don't You know, at the Doria, you
32:57
have a current that turns on and off.
32:58
When we're going far off the coast of
33:00
Nantucket, there's uh those are the kind
33:03
of dives where you're waiting all day
33:04
for your break. You get one shot at
33:06
going in.
33:07
Um but for the most part, I would say
33:09
75% of our diving, it's not the current
33:13
is not that much of an issue. You can
33:14
correct me if if if you would disagree
33:16
with that, Chris. 50
33:18
50? Okay.
33:22
But it is and
33:24
and one of the things we're looking at,
33:25
right? Like we're looking at procedures,
33:26
we're looking at other ways of doing
33:28
things. Um
33:30
it's not something that I mean,
33:32
sometimes we'll break out of a wreck if
33:34
like the current is really bad and we'll
33:35
make a plan and say, "If we break out,
33:37
we're just going to drift." And people
33:39
can
33:40
you know, so they know if we break out
33:43
on this dive
33:45
Well, I mean, I would say I would love
33:47
to drift. You know, when we go when I go
33:49
to Florida or whatever, you know, I have
33:50
no problem shooting a bag and drifting.
33:52
That's how they do it. I love it. I
33:54
think it's relaxing. You know, not
33:55
fighting the current. It's great.
33:58
But we're also most of the times we're
34:00
over these wrecks for two, three, four
34:01
days.
34:03
So when we're you know, we want to
34:04
anchor up, we want to stay.
34:06
And the other thing, too, is that you
34:08
know, and and again, I haven't done a
34:10
ton of of of trips in the UK, but you
34:14
guys seems like you tend to all go in at
34:16
once. Like everybody kind of goes in at
34:18
once
34:19
and they all come up. So you can all be
34:20
on the lazy shot drifting together. We
34:23
don't do it that way. So we're sending
34:25
in divers two at a time at various
34:27
intervals and then they're coming up. So
34:30
we really wouldn't have We don't have
34:31
these like mass decoys where everybody's
34:33
coming up and deoying at the same time.
34:35
Right. Okay. That's really interesting.
34:37
Yeah, I know it is very different
34:38
because we know we're able to predict
34:40
when the tidal windows are and they're
34:42
relatively short. So everybody goes in
34:45
at the same time so that everybody does
34:46
the dive without any tide. But then
34:49
obviously when you're deoying you know
34:50
there's going to be tide so you're going
34:51
to end up two, three, four miles away
34:53
from where you start and that's pretty
34:55
grim if you're trying to hang on a hang
34:57
on a line in those kind of currents. And
34:59
we don't do that much diving where it's
35:01
so tidal that you you have to put
35:04
everybody in. I mean that the only time
35:06
that I've experienced that is those
35:07
trips on George's Bank. Like really far
35:10
offshore where you're getting near the
35:11
the continental shelf and all that where
35:13
then we're staring at the water, putting
35:15
people in and it would have been nice to
35:17
maybe do something like that out there.
35:19
I guess it's one of those things. It
35:20
just shows how divers, wherever they are
35:22
in the world, they adjust their
35:24
techniques to what suits their own
35:25
conditions and that's
35:27
obviously you guys have done it for a
35:28
very long time and it worked really well
35:30
for you so must be must be the right
35:32
thing to do, I guess,
35:33
even if it seems a bit alien
35:36
to somebody like me who's a used to a
35:38
really different environment. I think it
35:40
would be really useful actually to
35:41
understand. I think you've touched on it
35:42
a bit there about actually how the
35:45
Tenacious operates in terms of you go
35:47
out for those long trips, you anchor in,
35:49
you know, you put people in
35:51
a couple of the time. What what does
35:53
life look like on a on a trip for you
35:55
for you guys? So it's it's fairly laid
35:58
back, I would say. I mean, we so we get
36:01
there. So on these long trips we get
36:02
there we usually leave at night so we
36:05
kind of steam we motor slow and you
36:07
know,
36:08
get there. It's a plan to get there like
36:11
first thing in the morning, like arrive
36:12
to the site at like 6:00 a.m. and the we
36:14
hook. The first set of divers goes in,
36:17
we make an order who's going to set,
36:19
who's going to go next, right? We make
36:21
the order. Everybody comes up. We have
36:24
lunch. It's kind of a big deal on the
36:26
boat because we like really like good
36:28
food, so we have these big lunches. And
36:31
then dive the next dive after that.
36:33
Everybody sleeps and relaxes, and then
36:36
they go back in again.
36:37
Um and obviously the order matters a
36:39
little bit less when it's in the middle
36:41
of the trip because if you're not
36:43
assigned to pull or you're not setting,
36:45
it kind of doesn't It's like dive when
36:46
you want to dive. And
36:48
>> Okay. um
36:49
that it's And then at the end of the
36:51
trip, um you usually do one dive in the
36:53
morning and then pull and then start to
36:56
head back so we get back to the dock. It
36:59
usually puts us back to the dock at
37:01
11:00 at night on that last night. Yes,
37:04
all the work in the morning.
37:07
I was going to say, well, apart from
37:08
that bit, the rest of it so the rest of
37:10
it sounds really sounds really nice. And
37:12
who decides who cooks or do do you have
37:14
do you take it in turns or are there
37:16
some people who are really good Are you
37:18
cook, Digger?
37:18
>> I do all the cooking.
37:20
Oh, wow. Okay.
37:22
Yeah.
37:23
Um It It's funny cuz now it's like
37:26
there's too many things to do. I think
37:27
the quality of food is going to go down
37:29
significantly this
37:31
now that I'm kind of running things. But
37:33
yeah, I know that's uh that was actually
37:35
one of the ways I started to get more
37:36
involved in the boat is I was trying to
37:39
think like what like stress can I take
37:41
off of Joe that I I can help with. And
37:44
one of my first sort of contributions to
37:46
D to Nations was becoming the cook. So,
37:49
um I try to prepare good stuff that
37:51
people want to eat, and we eat three
37:53
meals a day and two snacks a day when
37:55
we're out there. Um so nobody has to
37:57
bring any food onto the boat. It's all
37:59
there. We have it all for everybody.
38:02
Sounds fantastic for everybody apart
38:03
from you, if I'm honest.
38:06
Seven Seven desserts, seven course of
38:08
dessert a day?
38:10
I mean, other things people have be
38:11
interested in, you know, so this you
38:13
know, how do you work things like uh
38:15
costs? Does everyone chuck in for the
38:17
fuel? I guess that's probably the case.
38:19
Does everyone chuck in for servicing
38:21
costs and maintenance or, you know
38:23
How does that work? Yes, so we share
38:26
expenses of the trip.
38:29
So if we're doing a trip to the Andrea
38:31
Doria, we kind of take what food and
38:33
fuel is and
38:35
there the dockage costs because we're
38:37
moving the boat for that and we just
38:39
split it evenly. So you know it's we're
38:40
not like making a profit off of a
38:42
charter. It's
38:44
it's really just friends sharing
38:46
expenses. Oh wow, how nice. And and the
38:49
people that you you know is it like a
38:50
fixed team or have you got like a team
38:52
of you know a wider team and then a
38:54
segment of those go on each trip, you
38:57
know, how does that how does that work?
38:59
So we have a core group of people. I
39:01
mean we do have some people who do
39:03
prefer shower diving. We have some
39:05
people who are still on open circuit and
39:07
then we have like a core team of sort of
39:09
the hardcore rebreather divers that are
39:11
going to be doing these big trips.
39:14
So what we'll do is you know every week
39:16
we don't have a schedule because we're
39:18
not a charter like it's like what do we
39:19
feel like doing this weekend? This is
39:21
what we feel like doing this weekend. I
39:22
put out an email and then people say I
39:24
want on
39:26
um
39:26
And the only trips that we really
39:28
schedule in advance are those summer
39:30
those trips that are far offshore in the
39:32
summer time. We'll set those for July
39:33
and August but the rest of it is like
39:36
who's got a project? What are we working
39:37
on? What do we want to try to accomplish
39:40
and we and does the weather match what
39:42
it is that we want to do and then it's
39:44
good to go. That sounds really really
39:46
nice and very similar actually to Dark
39:49
Star which as you know I go out with
39:51
there's some you know great kind of
39:52
similarities between the two the two
39:54
groups. In terms of how many people can
39:56
you get on the boat? I would say we we
39:58
comfortably will accommodate seven
40:01
really because we have the six bunks in
40:04
the bow and then we have a pull out
40:06
in the main cabin that can become a bed.
40:09
So
40:11
it's really on these offshore trips
40:13
we'll go with with seven. From the
40:15
photos I've seen it must be quite
40:16
crowded with all the gear and all the
40:18
people and the galley and everything.
40:21
Oh, and what do you do when you're out
40:22
there about gas? It's diesel. So, we
40:25
>> No, no. Sorry, don't not gas. Um, what
40:27
>> Oh, gas gas. I thought you meant fuel. I
40:29
was like
40:29
>> No, no, no.
40:30
We carry a lot of of diesel. Um,
40:33
so we everybody brings most for those
40:36
trips everybody's on a rebreather. Yeah.
40:39
So, we really don't have to worry about
40:41
it. If everybody's on the rebreather and
40:42
has the appropriate bailout, that'll
40:44
last for the whole trip. Yeah, I was
40:46
thinking more about suit gas tends to be
40:48
one of the things that we have
40:50
limitations with. So, if you're doing
40:52
that many dives, people will need their
40:53
suit inflate cylinders fit filled. I
40:56
don't know, Christie. You might want to
40:58
talk about that because I I don't we've
41:00
not really had any problems with that.
41:01
If we're going to be out for we have
41:03
done some trips that are in the 5-7 day
41:07
range. They're rare. And on those we
41:10
have a compressor that we'll bring and
41:12
we can we can fill or bring bottles and
41:14
we can transfer. Um, but on the the the
41:17
the regular
41:19
like a 3 or 4 day Dorian trip, everybody
41:21
seems to be able to bring what they're
41:22
using.
41:24
What are you guys using, Don? Are you
41:25
using sixes for inflation or
41:27
Like, I use 13s.
41:30
So, I'll get two guys out of a 13 and
41:32
then I'll just bring three 13s with me.
41:35
Other guys will use sixes or bring five
41:37
sixes with them. If for some reason
41:40
somebody runs out because of XYZ,
41:43
we'll transfill off somebody's bottle.
41:46
Yeah. I mean, so what we what we do is
41:48
very different to you. So, we we don't
41:50
go out for long periods of time. We just
41:52
go out and back every day.
41:54
So, we will normally if we go somewhere,
41:56
we will somebody will take a small
41:57
compressor with them and then in the
41:58
evening we'll we'll pump up stuff. That
42:01
is yeah, which is why I was kind of
42:02
interested in the way that you do it cuz
42:04
I you know, there are things that are
42:05
different and that and that's definitely
42:07
one of them. One of the interesting
42:08
things you touched on it already, Jen,
42:10
is is the diver lift. Obviously, in in
42:13
the UK everybody every dive boat in
42:15
existence has got a diver lift and we
42:17
love them to bits and we everybody looks
42:20
at American and other country dive boats
42:23
and goes, "Where's the lift?" Yes. I
42:25
think everybody else said this before
42:26
she says it. What?
42:28
I think I know the answer. I I I know
42:30
the answer to it. I know the real
42:31
answer.
42:32
The boat's just ready.
42:38
Sadly, that is one of the
42:40
Um so I I think
42:43
Yes, there's obviously we all know the
42:45
obvious benefits of a lift. Um for us
42:47
it's a space consideration, right? The
42:50
boat's 45 ft. It's not a huge boat. So
42:54
there's space consideration, they're
42:55
bulky, there's a lot of that can go
42:58
wrong with them, there's a lot of
42:59
maintenance that's involved in them. We
43:01
do a lot of side scan sonar operations.
43:04
So the lift can interfere if you're
43:06
towing a fish. Um we we do a lot of so
43:10
and and a year we're doing a lot of
43:12
sonar. We're often just bringing sonar
43:13
with us and running over things when
43:15
we're far offshore. So it becomes
43:17
something that could easily like the
43:18
sonar could get connected could get
43:20
caught up in.
43:22
Um
43:23
And you know and I will tell you like
43:26
And this is I guess this is a secret.
43:27
This is an exclusive to you. Joe had a
43:29
terrible history with lifts.
43:32
He hated them.
43:33
Okay.
43:34
>> Every time he was on a dive boat that
43:36
had a lift, he crushed, cracked, or
43:38
screwed up something with the lift. So
43:41
he just had this like karma thing with
43:44
lifts that he would say he never had
43:45
one. So while
43:47
I I think the real answer is it just I
43:49
think it interferes with a lot of our
43:50
operations, but
43:52
behind the scenes there was this
43:54
deep-seated hatred of lifts.
43:57
That that Joe had because of how many
43:59
pieces of equipment he'd crushed in
44:01
them. He just never got the hang. Okay.
44:03
Um and I think one other thing about
44:05
about the the lift is our divers are
44:08
taking off bailout and hanging them on
44:11
the line. They want to get rid of their
44:13
bailout because we're not drifting,
44:15
right? Because you're
44:17
holding on to a line, they're going to
44:19
be taking off their bailout and they put
44:21
it on an equipment line that we'll haul
44:22
up from the surface. So, you know, if we
44:25
have a lift, then everybody is in all of
44:27
that gear
44:29
the whole way to the surface. So, the
44:31
hang becomes more problematic
44:34
at that point. Tom, your boats are in
44:37
the UK. Aren't your boats a lot taller?
44:40
Or I I I think they're they look a lot
44:42
taller than ours. Like we're you know,
44:44
no more than
44:46
a foot and a half off the waterline.
44:48
It's our swim platform. So, it's not
44:50
it's not a big climb at all. It's three
44:52
or four rungs up the ladder.
44:55
You may take this the wrong way and
44:56
apologies if you do. We I would say that
44:59
we probably go out in rougher seas than
45:02
what I would think what I would think
45:04
you guys do. And and
45:06
and therefore our boats are probably
45:09
designed to cope with that, which is why
45:11
they've got a higher freeboard. And
45:13
that's why, you know, we get out the
45:15
water in rougher seas and therefore, you
45:17
know, that's why the lift is more
45:18
importance. We we do use something
45:20
called a fishing line, which is the
45:24
everyone's drifting along on the on the
45:25
lazy shot and the boat will chuck a line
45:28
in that goes down to maybe 20 m, so 60
45:31
ft. And it's got every meter or 3 ft,
45:35
it's got a
45:37
a clip on it or a so you can you can
45:39
people swim over to it, they'll take off
45:41
their their deep bailouts or their
45:43
scooters or whatever it else it is and
45:45
then the boat will pull them on board.
45:46
So, we do get rid of our stuff, but you
45:49
can't do that in really big seas because
45:52
obviously the boat just can't get it
45:53
back on board. They can't get the
45:55
fishing line back on board the boat. So,
45:57
the time you really need it, it's not
45:58
it's not available. And that's where the
46:00
lift obviously becomes important. And I
46:02
think perhaps our weather's a bit more
46:03
changeable as well. So, you can go in
46:06
and it'll be absolutely fine and you can
46:08
come out and it will be quite horrible.
46:10
So, you know, once again, it's it's
46:12
about stuff for different conditions, I
46:14
think.
46:15
Yeah.
46:15
>> got asked about that on the boat. Yeah.
46:18
Yeah, I mean, you What? No, I I was
46:20
saying we'll we'll be out we'll be out
46:22
there on the deck and
46:24
we'll be looking at the weather and I'm
46:25
like, "Come on. You see those guys in
46:26
the UK?" I'm like, "Could you stop?
46:29
Let's just go." They're 3-ft. These guys
46:31
are going out in 6- and 9-footers. I'm
46:33
like, "Come on." Yeah, you will get
46:36
noticed people from us that But I'm I'm
46:38
off of the child. Yeah, you get noticed
46:40
people from us that your weather is much
46:41
more challenging. It's funny like I
46:43
remember being on the Lusitania chucking
46:45
that thing cuz it was it was, you know,
46:47
me and the captain and I think Owen was
46:49
with me one day. It was really Owen was
46:51
with us. It was really, really rough.
46:53
And it was just me and him on the back
46:54
deck. And Joe was such a diva about
46:57
taking his bottles. Like he would always
46:58
be like, "Make sure you throw all of
47:00
those bottles. We need to put" like he
47:01
did not want to deco with any bottles.
47:03
So, I'm throwing that bucket while
47:06
everybody and pulling it up and
47:07
eventually Owen was just like, "I don't
47:08
want to do this anymore." And Owen sat
47:11
down and I was like, "I got to do it cuz
47:14
I don't want him to yell when he comes
47:15
up to the surface." Oh, wow. Okay. Oh,
47:18
just kidding. No, I mean, he was he was
47:20
helping me, but it was really funny. He
47:21
was like he's like, "They're just being
47:23
babies."
47:24
We have a lift. I was like, "I know, but
47:26
it'll crush something in it."
47:28
Okay. Okay. Okay, well, that Okay, we I
47:31
guess we we've done that cuz it was one
47:33
of the you know, when we did those
47:34
questions on Facebook, it was one of the
47:35
things that came out, wasn't it? So, I
47:36
felt I felt I had to do that otherwise
47:39
there would be clearly there'd be people
47:40
who getting
47:41
you know, getting distressed about it.
47:43
So, there we go. Uh one other thing
47:45
actually, a diving question that was
47:46
also on there. What How do you we've
47:48
mentioned it already. How do you guys
47:49
deal with numbers of cylinders you
47:51
carry? What's your bailout system? I
47:53
mean, you're probably wearing the you
47:55
know, over here we are we're all in
47:56
favor of of chucking loads of cylinders
47:58
over the side of the boat. Is that what
48:00
you guys do or do you do bailout
48:02
rebreathers? You know, how do you handle
48:04
it?
48:05
Some guys will do they'll they'll lean
48:07
towards the team bailout. Um I have
48:09
sometimes depends on what we're doing.
48:11
What the mission is.
48:13
Um we also have T bottles on the boat,
48:15
so we drop down regulators onto that
48:18
Carolina rig or our deco station.
48:21
Um
48:23
It's great. It's it's it's definitely a
48:25
big redundancy and you should be back on
48:27
you should be back on the downline.
48:30
But we do tend to carry all of our own
48:32
bailout. Each person because again
48:36
Usually we'll we'll go down in a pair,
48:38
but we'll split up at the bottom. Right?
48:40
So what good is the the team bailout
48:42
system if you're not together? And what
48:44
good is are the second stages if you
48:47
don't find a way back to that line for
48:48
whatever reason.
48:49
It is there as a redundancy, but yes, we
48:51
do carry all of our own bailout for that
48:54
dive. So on a on what uh you know, big
48:56
dive, you know, 100 odd meter dive or
48:58
whatever, how many cylinders will you go
48:59
in with? Up to four. Okay.
49:02
>> Five if needed. It sucks.
49:05
You know, how do you guys do it? Pretty
49:07
much only ever go in with two.
49:09
And our our policy is because obviously
49:13
our boat is mobile and it's it's it's
49:15
circling around and we have all these
49:17
cylinders on board the boat. Our policy
49:19
is that you have to get back to about 50
49:21
m. You put up a bag, then the world
49:24
supply cylinders come down to you and
49:26
it's one of those things that we
49:27
practice and I've I've seen it work
49:30
maybe three times. So it is
49:33
and it's pretty standard all the way
49:34
around the British Isles. Some groups
49:36
don't do that, but most of them do. One
49:38
of our concerns is
49:40
um if you're carrying four or five
49:42
stages on a boat and the weather's a bit
49:45
sloppy and a bit lumpy, clearly there's
49:47
quite a big risk of falling over. And if
49:49
you fall over, that's going to be really
49:51
painful.
49:52
And potentially
49:54
serious. So, yeah, it's like balancing
49:57
risks, isn't it?
49:59
Yeah, most of us like, well, if I put on
50:03
I mean, yeah, I put on four bottles. And
50:04
then if you got a fifth
50:06
and it's tail clipped, somebody will be
50:08
back the swim platform. You'd have one
50:11
guy on the left with your with your
50:13
scooter, one guy on the right with the
50:14
tail flip bottle, he'll rig up your
50:16
scooter for you, stand it up on the
50:18
nose.
50:19
And then the other guy will be clipping,
50:20
you know, the other bottle on your ass
50:23
on your way in.
50:24
And we also have protocols for well,
50:26
let's say
50:28
let's say you lose one of your bailouts.
50:29
And let's say you did have to bail out.
50:31
You know, there's protocols in place for
50:34
if a bad you know, if a certain bag
50:35
comes up
50:37
we're just lost on the wreck. It's fine.
50:39
Right? We're We're just coming up on our
50:41
own upline. We have other protocols to
50:43
where if we send up, you know, an
50:45
additional bag
50:46
we need help. We need gas, whatever it
50:49
is. And the diver will jump in and send
50:51
it down to you.
50:53
Yeah, I know. Okay, fantastic. That's
50:55
That's really useful. It's That was
50:57
another one of the questions that was
50:59
out there on that Facebook chat. So,
51:01
it's kind of really interesting to hear
51:02
your strategies and, you know, to kind
51:04
of hear out the similarities but also
51:06
also differences. Moving on,
51:09
it would be useful I think maybe just to
51:11
touch on a couple of the other projects
51:13
that you've got. And I know Jen, you
51:14
sent me a whole list of them which is
51:16
absolutely amazing. And there's there's
51:17
like material for about another five or
51:19
six chapters and we should definitely do
51:21
another one of these cuz it's been
51:22
absolutely fantastic. But just kind of
51:24
give us a bit of a feel for some of
51:25
those.
51:26
So,
51:27
yeah, so I think
51:29
one of the the more significant things
51:31
that we have been doing recently is
51:32
exploring shipwrecks on George's Bank.
51:35
And that was something that started in
51:38
in earnest in 2020. But I have to admit
51:42
really started back in 2016 when I, you
51:45
you
51:45
um, Takajian who's a captain, a very
51:48
prolific shipwreck hunter from
51:50
Massachusetts, who's found more than 80
51:51
shipwrecks, um, had been looking for
51:54
that in the 1990s. And there was a day
51:57
in 2016 when I said to Joe, "Give me a a
52:00
shipwreck to research, like one you
52:02
haven't found." And he just said, "The
52:04
Lena." Which was a French passenger
52:07
steamship that sank in 1856, built in
52:10
1855,
52:11
really unique horizontal steam engine,
52:14
uh, you know, in that time period of the
52:16
transition of sail to steam to sail, and
52:19
this really early 1850s engine, just a
52:22
cool wreck. So, I started researching
52:24
it, and it was a project that had been
52:26
on the back burner for a long time. I
52:28
started researching it, and then amassed
52:30
enough research that in 2020,
52:34
Eric felt confident that we had narrowed
52:36
down a search area.
52:38
And I remember every year I used to take
52:39
all of my research, and I would we'd go
52:41
to Eric's house and into his office,
52:43
which is a room called the bunk I call
52:44
the bunker, cuz it's it's it's detached
52:47
from his house, and he has all these
52:48
shipwreck artifacts in there. It's the
52:50
coolest place.
52:51
And I would bring a folder that said the
52:53
Lena on the side, and I would hand it to
52:55
him, and he would go through things, and
52:57
he would take out a chart, and he would
52:58
do stuff on it, and he'd talk to Joe
53:00
about the numbers. And in 2020, he said,
53:03
"We can start to search."
53:05
And I was all excited, and then I got in
53:07
the car with Joe, and we were starting
53:09
to leave, and he said, "It's too far.
53:11
The boat can't
53:13
we can't get there with the boat."
53:15
And I was upset, and I, you know, I
53:17
didn't show him I was upset, because
53:19
what am I going to do? We don't have a
53:20
boat. So, we started thinking about
53:21
other options, other plans. And then
53:23
about 2 weeks later, he came to me and
53:24
he said, "I have an idea.
53:26
We're going to put a new engine in the
53:27
boat,
53:28
and we're going to increase our fuel
53:29
capacity."
53:31
Like normal people, right?
53:34
So, we bought a new engine,
53:36
um, that allowed us to, um,
53:39
go further. We got, you know, better
53:41
range, and we increased our increased
53:43
our fuel capacity to 770 gallons. So, we
53:46
can carry a lot of fuel.
53:49
Um and that enabled us to start doing
53:50
these searches that are farther offshore
53:53
into Jordan's Bank. So,
53:55
um
53:56
So, we started researching shipwrecks
53:58
out there. Our first trips out there
54:00
were 2022. So, we did 2022, we did
54:02
scanning. 2023, we did scanning. 2024,
54:07
we dived two of the wrecks. One of them
54:09
did turn out to be the L'Aine.
54:11
Um and then we dived another wreck that
54:13
we referred to as the Big Engine
54:14
Steamer. Um and then in 2025,
54:18
we identified the third of the three
54:21
significant shipwrecks we thought we
54:22
found out there, which was the Sena,
54:24
which was a uh really unique um
54:27
steam trawler steam-powered trawler that
54:30
sank with all hands in 1929.
54:33
So, these wrecks are When I That's what
54:35
I was saying earlier about being far.
54:38
These wrecks are 150 mi from Nantucket.
54:40
They're 200 mi from our launch point.
54:43
So, from New Bedford, they're about 200
54:45
mi offshore. So, you're talking like
54:49
a lot more range. These trips are a lot
54:52
more remote.
54:56
Fun, you know, being out there and doing
54:58
these um these expeditions in an area
55:01
that I'm not going to say was undived
55:02
because that's not the case. Somebody
55:05
has been diving out there. But,
55:07
really we were the first people to start
55:09
exploring this area. So, you know, we
55:12
feel like we have more work to do out
55:13
there. It's going to be a little while
55:14
before we get back out there. But, I
55:16
think that has been the most significant
55:18
thing that we have been doing over the
55:19
last couple of years.
55:21
Wow. That is absolutely incredible.
55:24
Um and you know, I know I know obviously
55:26
this might be a good opportunity to
55:27
mention your book, Jen.
55:29
Oh, my book that I have right here?
55:32
Exactly.
55:34
Um it's called The Adriatic Affair, A
55:35
Maritime Hit and Run Off the Coast of
55:37
Nantucket, and it is about the sinking
55:39
of the La Bourgogne. Um and I think one
55:42
of the things that is so cool about this
55:43
story is that, you know, most shipwreck
55:46
stories
55:48
end when passengers are rescued, right?
55:50
Or or or or passengers are not, right?
55:53
They end with the the end of the
55:56
the
55:57
the shipwreck story. Um but this really
56:00
was truly a hit-and-run. It was a
56:02
captain from the United States who had
56:04
this collision and then went back to
56:05
shore, didn't tell anybody he had
56:06
collided with another vessel, tried to
56:09
cover it up, gets arrested in France,
56:11
and there's a trial.
56:13
Um so the whole second half of the book
56:15
is about this trial in France, so it's
56:17
almost like a courtroom drama for the
56:18
second half of the book. And as a
56:20
lawyer, I'm a a criminal defense lawyer
56:21
by day,
56:23
uh so as a lawyer and a shipwreck
56:25
hunter, this was like worlds colliding.
56:27
Um
56:28
and there's also an epilogue that talks
56:30
about our exploration on Georges Bank
56:32
and D V Tenacious and who we are and
56:34
what we do. Uh it's fantastic. I I I I
56:36
love the fact that
56:39
you are now part of the story.
56:42
And the fact that you've documented it
56:43
all and everything, I think that is
56:45
absolutely fabulous. And it's
56:47
it's one of the things that I personally
56:49
love about um shipwreck exploration is
56:51
the fact that you you find all these
56:53
incredible stories and then you become
56:55
part of them by the fact you found the
56:56
shipwreck. So it's absolutely I love it.
56:58
And I can what you've talked about all
57:00
those years of research and all those
57:03
visits to the bunker and then to
57:05
absolutely crack the case, that just
57:07
must be an absolutely amazing um amazing
57:10
feeling. So, yeah, well done.
57:14
Thanks. And I'll tell you what, we I
57:16
think we'll come back if you're happy
57:17
and we'll do a longer video about that
57:19
and we'll do we'll do a bit more about
57:21
it because uh clearly that's absolutely
57:23
fantastic.
57:25
That would be great, yeah.
57:26
I think what we should probably do now
57:28
is draw things to a close and just to
57:31
say thank you both so much for taking
57:34
the time to talk with me and that the
57:36
people who will listen and and watch
57:38
this and thank you.
57:41
Thank you so much for having us.

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