Up next in 10
I joined the crew of DV Tenacious to discuss their diving on the SS Andrea Doria at 240ft — one of the most famous shipwrecks in the world.
Captain Jenn Sellitti and diver Chris Ogden explain what it takes to run deep wreck diving operations on the Andrea Doria — from the logistics of the DV Tenacious dive boat to the realities of technical diving at depth. The crew share their experiences recovering artifacts, navigating the deteriorating wreck, and pushing the limits of shipwreck diving on America's east coast.
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*Thanks*
Thanks to Jenn and Chris for taking the time to discuss DV Tenacious with me.
You can buy a copy of Jenn's book "Adriatic Affair, The: A Maritime Hit-and-Run off the Coast of Nantucket" here - https://amzn.to/4bxfwgv
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*Chapters*
00:00 This Is NOT a Normal Dive Operation
00:01:30 Why They Keep Going Back to the Andrea Doria
00:06:00 What It Really Takes to Run These Expeditions
00:11:00 “It’s Not Everest Anymore”… Or Is It?
00:17:30 When Conditions Turn Against You Fast
00:24:00 The Logistics Nobody Sees Behind the Scenes
00:31:00 What They’ve Actually Recovered from the Wreck
00:38:00 The Risks Most Divers Never Experience
00:45:00 The Part of Deep Wreck Diving Nobody Talks About
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
You're the only dive boat that is
0:01
consistently regularly diving the Andrea
0:04
Doria. Deep wreck exploration in the
0:07
North Atlantic requires more than just
0:11
technical diving skills. The wreck is so
0:13
vast you could be
0:16
300, 400 ft out in the debris field.
0:18
Their expeditions regularly target some
0:20
of the most challenging dives in the
0:22
North Atlantic. The current is another
0:25
again huge challenge. Today I'm talking
0:28
with the team from the famous dive boat
0:31
D.V. Tenacious. We are a group of people
0:34
who are just passionate about locating,
0:36
diving, and salvaging artifacts from
0:38
shipwrecks. Fantastic to have you here
0:40
with us today, guys. If you could just
0:42
introduce yourself, please. Sure, I'm
0:44
Jen Saledi. I am the captain of D.V.
0:48
Tenacious. I'm Chris Ogden. I am nothing
0:50
but a crew member of D.V. Tenacious.
0:54
And one of the divers, of course, Chris.
0:55
We can't We can't
0:56
>> divers.
0:58
So, for people who don't know, please
1:00
tell us tell us about D.V. Tenacious.
1:02
How do you work? All those kind of
1:03
things. Cuz you're not a a commercial
1:05
boat. I think that's a really important
1:07
place to start, isn't it? Yeah, so we
1:09
are we are not a charter dive operation.
1:12
We were started in 2010
1:15
by Captain Joe Mazraani who bought the
1:17
boat for deep shipwreck exploration in
1:21
on the eastern seaboard. So, we're
1:23
located in New Jersey, which is northern
1:27
north northeast. So, near Massachusetts,
1:30
Connecticut, New York, and we operate as
1:34
far as Delaware, Virginia area up until
1:38
up until Massachusetts and and off the
1:40
coast of Massachusetts.
1:42
So, we are a group of people who are
1:44
just passionate about locating, diving,
1:46
and salvaging artifacts from shipwrecks.
1:48
And that's what we've been doing since
1:50
2010.
1:52
Absolutely awesome. And and how long
1:54
have you both been involved with the
1:55
team? And been a lot longer than I have.
1:58
I mean, Jen, what what am I now on six,
2:00
seven years on a six years on the boat?
2:03
Okay, let me count my gray hairs.
2:05
Um
2:07
No, I think
2:08
I think Chris joined us in about 2019.
2:12
Um so, Joe Mazraani founded bought the
2:14
boat and founded Atlantic Wreck Salvage
2:16
and DB Tenacious in 2010.
2:19
Um I met him in 2015, so I've been
2:21
involved since 2015. And Chris came on
2:25
board, I think it was probably 2018,
2:27
2019 in that time frame. I think it'd be
2:29
uh great to hear about, you know, some
2:32
of the dives that you've done. You're
2:33
most famous really for the Andrea Doria,
2:36
which is kind of one of those wrecks
2:37
that everybody in the world has heard
2:39
of. Um and you guys do it really
2:41
regularly, don't you? Yeah, so we have
2:43
been diving the Andrea Doria uh since uh
2:46
many of the people on the boat have been
2:47
diving the Andrea Doria since like the
2:48
1980s and 1990s.
2:51
Um the boat has been going there since
2:53
uh it was founded in 2010.
2:56
Uh almost every summer, I think we
2:57
missed maybe one or two summers in that
2:59
time period for various reasons, but I
3:02
think it's fair to say we are the only
3:04
dive boat that is consistently,
3:06
regularly diving the Andrea Doria. And
3:09
two of the salvors in possession, Tom
3:11
Packer and Steve Gatto, routinely dive
3:14
the Doria with us. I and and I'm I'm I'm
3:17
going to turn it to Chris to talk about
3:19
what it is like to dive the Andrea
3:20
Doria, but I think um the important
3:22
thing for us is that it has such a
3:25
tremendous place in northeast wreck
3:28
diving history. There are so many people
3:31
that decided to start diving, decided to
3:33
start going further offshore, decided to
3:35
push the boundaries of mixed gas and
3:39
equipment in order to be able to reach
3:42
the Doria, to dive the Doria, and then
3:43
to stay on the Doria longer. So, it is a
3:45
rite of passage for northeast wreck
3:48
northeast wreck divers to dive the
3:50
Doria.
3:51
And Chris is one of many people who dive
3:54
the Andrea for the first time on our
3:56
vessel. And one of my favorite things is
3:58
always seeing people come up from diving
4:01
the Andrea for the first time and that
4:02
look in their eye that is just so much
4:05
different than any other wreck that we
4:07
dive.
4:08
So I got then Chris, tell us what's it
4:10
like?
4:11
Well, before that, I I believe we're the
4:14
only boat that dives the Andrea now for
4:16
the last couple of years. There was a
4:17
couple of charter boats.
4:20
I mean, one from when I first started,
4:22
the John Jack, they went out and then I
4:24
believe it was just um a boat called the
4:26
Old Salty run by Nick Caruso.
4:29
When I started diving the Andrea, I want
4:31
to say he did about two trips.
4:33
Um and that was it. And
4:36
you know, he he's had so many deaths on
4:38
the boat, especially from the Andrea,
4:41
that he kind of
4:43
he leans more towards fishing now and if
4:45
it doesn't matter the money doesn't
4:46
matter to him.
4:48
If he doesn't know who you are,
4:50
you're not on it, right? So anybody
4:52
could sign up and he's out of that year
4:53
and now it's just yeah, he's he's
4:55
leaning towards not doing it at all. So
4:57
I would say that we're the only boat
4:59
that does the Andrea for the last, I
5:00
don't know, probably 5 6 years now. Cuz
5:02
it's a long it is a long way out, isn't
5:04
it? I think that's one of the things
5:05
that people don't appreciate is is just
5:07
how far out it is. So for us, we we used
5:10
to go from Montauk Montauk Montauk Point
5:13
and back in the day that was the launch
5:14
point. It's 100 miles from Montauk. From
5:16
New Bedford, it's about 90 miles. We
5:19
started going back to New Bedford going
5:20
to New Bedford for these trips a few
5:22
years ago. Um and it's funny because we
5:25
used to say that that was a long way
5:27
away
5:28
until we started doing stuff much much
5:30
further offshore. And in the last couple
5:32
of years it's been, oh, you know, we'll
5:34
just start on the Andrea or it's close,
5:36
it's just the Andrea.
5:38
So
5:39
uh I think distance like depth is a
5:43
matter of perspective, time, and
5:44
experience. So it is far, it is
5:47
logistically challenging. It is, you
5:50
know, far to go on a dive boat, but it
5:52
is about
5:54
half to a little less than half of the
5:56
distance of some of the other wrecks
5:57
that we're diving.
5:58
Wow. But But you're not going out there
6:00
and back in a single day, are you?
6:02
You're going out there for a period of
6:04
time and you're living on the boat and
6:05
you're I I I guess it's almost like a it
6:07
is a liveaboard dive boat, isn't it, in
6:09
that sense?
6:10
Yeah, so we'll go out and we will stay
6:13
out there 4 days if we can.
6:15
Um that's a typical trip uh to the
6:18
Andrea Doria. We try to get 4 days in um
6:22
if we can, sometimes three, but we
6:23
wouldn't go unless we were getting at
6:25
least 3 days.
6:26
Right. Okay. And so So, you know, if
6:29
you're going out to those further
6:30
wrecks, you go out, do the Andrea Doria
6:32
on the way out, then get out there,
6:34
couple of dives there, and then Andrea
6:35
Doria on the way back. Is that the way
6:36
it works? No, we typically will only do
6:40
one or sometimes two wrecks on those
6:42
trips. So, if we're doing the Doria,
6:43
we're anchored to the Doria for 3 or 4
6:45
days. Okay. And we're doing multiple
6:47
dives on the Doria. So, we would be
6:49
doing um we would you know, let's say
6:52
we're leaving on a Thursday, we leave on
6:53
a Thursday night, we get there on
6:54
Friday, dive in the morning, dive in the
6:57
afternoon, Saturday dive in the morning,
6:59
dive in the afternoon, Sunday dive in
7:01
the morning, and then we would start to
7:02
head back after um after those dives in
7:06
the morning. So, we're getting multiple
7:09
dives on the wreck while we're out
7:11
there.
7:12
Wow. Okay. And you'll got the guys would
7:14
it Is there any guys diving in the
7:15
morning and the afternoon? Would they do
7:17
two dives on it for a day?
7:19
Yeah, so on the Doria we'll do two dives
7:20
a day. Generally, um
7:23
when it's around 250, 260, I don't know
7:26
what that is in meters.
7:28
Sorry.
7:29
Um we'll do two dives a day. When we get
7:31
closer to 300 ft or more than 300 ft,
7:33
we'll do one. Yeah, okay. So, I can
7:36
Yeah, okay. Cuz I mean, my understanding
7:37
of the Doria area is about 60-ish meters
7:40
to the seabed. So, I guess what 200 ft
7:44
What have thought.
7:45
>> 240 240, okay. Okay, then more than 70 m
7:48
maybe. Yeah, okay. And it's collapsing.
7:50
So, you used to be able to hit the deck
7:52
a lot shallower than that, but now the
7:54
the highest point you're hitting at
7:55
about 200 ft now. I have heard that. You
7:57
mean all the wrecks over here exactly
7:59
the same as well. They're all collapsing
8:01
in. They're all changing quite
8:02
dramatically. And ours by and large are
8:03
much older but than yours, so it's
8:06
really interesting to hear that you've
8:07
got the same thing. Okay, Chris, so tell
8:09
us what's it like to dive the Andrea
8:10
Doria? People do say that it's not
8:14
the Mount Everest of shipwreck dive
8:15
anymore. And to me that that's because
8:17
of
8:18
I believe they're talking about depth.
8:20
And no, it's not in that aspect. I mean,
8:22
we have a lot deeper wrecks
8:24
that we dive
8:26
that I to me I wouldn't consider nearly
8:28
as challenging as the Doria. Um you have
8:31
something 4 or 500 ft tropical what what
8:33
we consider tropical water.
8:35
And that's not you know, it's
8:38
you have the physiological effect of
8:40
that, but not
8:41
you don't have the conditions. You don't
8:43
have all of that.
8:45
The Doria to me, whether you know,
8:48
whether what other people say
8:50
it still is the Mount Everest to me. I
8:52
still respect it more than any other
8:54
wreck that I've dove in deeper water.
8:57
Um and it's because of the mix of you
8:59
know, the mix of things that you get.
9:00
You get
9:01
you get the low the low visibility. You
9:03
have a distance. You have the current.
9:05
You have
9:07
just the vastness of the wreck. You've
9:08
got the sharks. Don't forget about the
9:10
sharks.
9:11
Um
9:13
we always tend to watch shark videos out
9:15
there about the Andrea Doria.
9:17
That's true.
9:18
Um
9:19
you have all these different things. The
9:21
current's one of the biggest things.
9:23
It's like a light switch. You could it
9:25
could be rough as hell out there and you
9:28
can you know, you could be thinking to
9:29
yourself, "Oh, it must be it must be
9:30
really shitty under the water."
9:31
Actually, it happened to one of our crew
9:33
members on our his first Doria trip his
9:35
first Doria trip.
9:37
Um, which was last season, Brandon.
9:41
And he's looking at the surface and he's
9:42
like, "Oh my god." He jumps in.
9:46
He goes down, he does a dive with me.
9:48
And uh
9:49
comes up and and Joe asks him, he goes,
9:51
"So, how was it? How was your first
9:53
Doria dive?" Brandon goes,
9:55
"That wasn't bad."
9:57
And I was like, "Oh man, this guy."
9:59
You know, and the second I had the
10:02
second dive of the day,
10:04
the swells are down. It was like, Jen,
10:07
you remember it was it was pretty damn
10:08
calm out there, right?
10:10
>> Mhm.
10:11
It was nice and calm and now Brandon's
10:13
all, you know, he's all cocky about it.
10:16
And he jumps in.
10:18
And I'll tell you, he got up from that
10:20
dive.
10:21
And Joe goes, "How was it?"
10:24
And he goes, "That was the true Doria
10:26
experience." He was like, "Holy shit."
10:31
But yeah, it's
10:33
it's so many things. It's like you have
10:35
Dom, the the really low visibility. The
10:38
wreck's so vast and you can only see
10:39
about 30 ft of it, 40 if we're lucky
10:42
at a time. It's always pitch black.
10:45
Um, you know, I always heard stories
10:46
about
10:48
the older guys, well, you know, our
10:50
mentors, the guys that still dive with
10:52
us,
10:53
about what it was back, you know, what
10:54
it was back in the day. And they they
10:56
talk about all this great viz and all
10:57
that. I have never seen it.
10:59
Um
11:01
The current's another again, huge
11:03
challenge and that's not just because
11:05
it's current, where are you on the
11:06
wreck?
11:07
The wreck's so vast, you could be
11:10
300, 400 ft out in the debris field.
11:13
And
11:15
if you don't have your scooter with you,
11:17
good luck getting back to that anchor
11:19
line.
11:20
You know, um
11:22
And that was one of the big things that
11:24
Joe would always preach was the scooter
11:26
wasn't just for towing around.
11:29
The The was a safety net.
11:32
Right? Even if you stowed it. And I
11:33
always use mine to either taxi down
11:36
and to where I'm going, stow it away,
11:39
and then taxi back. And if I need it, I
11:41
have it. But it's stowed.
11:44
Uh so, you have the visibility, the lack
11:46
of, you have the current.
11:49
You feel like, you know, an ant on this
11:52
wreck just because of the you know, the
11:54
the vastness of the debris fields.
11:57
Um
11:59
The debris field on a on a typical wreck
12:00
that we dive, probably same as you,
12:04
I don't know, 4 or 5 6-ft tall?
12:08
Talking debris coming off the bottom.
12:10
You're out on the Doria and let's say
12:12
you're out 200-ft off the wreck. She's
12:14
laying on her side.
12:16
That debris field can come up 50-60-ft
12:18
off the bottom.
12:20
And that's just because the decks have
12:21
fanned out. So, it's not really a debris
12:23
field, it's still wreckage, but it sure
12:25
looks like one.
12:28
Um
12:29
You have the cold.
12:31
Right? Uh
12:32
You get the annoying sharks all the
12:34
time. I think they're funny.
12:35
It's not It's not that funny because
12:38
when we're hanging at, water's pretty
12:39
damn murky.
12:41
You know, and I I remember this one of
12:43
our other guys, Joe Sena Mod, on one of
12:45
his dives. He thought
12:47
He's over there hanging at 20-ft and he
12:50
sees this monster shadow come by.
12:53
And he thought it was the biggest great
12:54
white he'd ever saw.
12:56
Turn out to be a basking shark, which
12:58
was a monster.
13:00
It was a pretty big basking shark.
13:03
Until you know they're a basking shark,
13:04
they are absolutely terrifying cuz
13:06
they're big and they move the way they
13:09
move is kind of intimidating as well.
13:11
So, yeah, no, I'm absolutely I'm with
13:13
you on that one. So, tell us about the
13:15
the compass and Chris cuz obviously
13:16
that's, you know, one of the absolutely
13:18
epic recent finds that you guys made on
13:20
the uh on the Andrea Doria. So, the
13:23
compass
13:25
for what I thought
13:27
I mean I I couldn't even contain myself
13:30
when I thought I found it. I thought I
13:33
was the one to find it.
13:35
I was screaming. I was I never pull my
13:37
weight. I'm surprised I had my weight
13:39
now cuz I never carried the damn things.
13:41
And I definitely never rode on them. But
13:43
man, on my hang, I was going nuts
13:47
telling everybody about it.
13:49
And I'm saying there's no way we have a
13:51
thing on, you know, on our wrecks where
13:54
it's the same crew all the time.
13:56
We're diving all these wrecks that
13:57
nobody else does.
13:58
So you don't worry about another boat
14:00
coming by and and grabbing new
14:02
artifacts. It's just not even a thing.
14:05
So, what we do is we'll tag artifacts.
14:09
Right? It's a simple it's cookie it's a
14:10
it's it's a line arrow it's whatever it
14:12
is. You want to drop your reel on it.
14:14
If you do that, you know that we were
14:16
the only ones out there. The rest of the
14:17
crews know, you know, they know not to
14:19
screw with that. You're working on it.
14:21
Um
14:23
So, I I I go by Well, I'll tell you how
14:26
it happened.
14:28
Joe's in the water first. And Jen, who
14:30
is Joe diving with that day? Probably
14:32
Tom. I think Tom Becker, yeah.
14:35
So Joe goes down to the wreck first.
14:37
He's diving with Tom.
14:39
And Mike Dude is I'm sorry. Mike Dude is
14:41
ran a reel out. It was the first time I
14:43
ever dove the bow side of the wreck. I
14:46
All my dives are on the stern half.
14:48
And I remember talking to Joe the winter
14:50
before and I was like, "Dude, can we
14:51
just do the bow? I've never been there."
14:53
He goes, "You've never been in the bow?"
14:54
I said, "No."
14:55
He goes, "All right, we'll do the bow."
14:57
So we go to the bow. Dude is runs a
14:59
line.
15:00
Just a main line like a gold line in the
15:02
cave.
15:03
And uh
15:04
you know, I follow it.
15:06
Again, Joe's down there with Tom.
15:08
They're coming up. I pass them.
15:10
Of course Joe doesn't say anything to
15:11
me.
15:12
I pass him by and I'm follow I you know,
15:15
we jump the break. There's a huge break
15:16
on the Doria between the stern and the
15:18
bow.
15:20
So I jump this break.
15:22
I'm going down the line, going down the
15:23
line, never saw these areas before.
15:26
And something to my right really caught
15:28
my eye. I mean, it just really stood
15:30
out. It looked like a barn door.
15:32
It was like wood slats and it had an X
15:35
that went through it. It was in this
15:36
hole. It was
15:39
a non-inviting place. Let's put it that
15:42
way. But there was this this hatch or
15:44
barn door looking thing and I'm like,
15:45
"What the hell is that?"
15:47
And it was probably like 20 ft off the
15:49
line.
15:50
So, Brandon's diving with me on that
15:52
dive.
15:53
I look at him. I'm like, "Hey, I'm going
15:55
to go that way.
15:56
Stay here." So, I go over there.
16:00
Oh, and by the way, I've been looking
16:01
for another Lido deck window.
16:03
I got one a few years ago and I wanted
16:06
another.
16:07
So, that's what I was looking for on
16:09
these dives. That and China.
16:12
And um
16:14
I see this thing. I go off to the right,
16:16
poke my head in there.
16:18
And what do I find? I mean, it's first
16:20
of all, it's this little area. It's a
16:22
crushed down It's not a room. It's It's
16:24
just It made its own room. It's this
16:26
crushed down area
16:28
with a pile of debris there. I mean, you
16:30
had whole plates. You had just
16:31
everything that you can imagine. Cables,
16:33
everything that you could think of, Don.
16:35
And I'm looking in there and it it
16:37
looked like a bunch of loose pieces of
16:38
paper, all these whole plates. And I see
16:41
it.
16:42
There's a Lido deck window on its side.
16:45
Not as pretty as the first one I found
16:47
because the glass is broken, but I'm
16:48
like, "That's a Lido deck window."
16:51
Now, I'm like, "How do I get this out of
16:52
here?"
16:54
But where I went in, there was one area.
16:56
There was one spot that you can get in
16:58
and get out.
16:59
But where this thing was, it was all the
17:01
way down and to the left. And I'm like,
17:03
"Man, this would be a real job to get
17:05
drag this thing out of here with all
17:07
these cables hanging."
17:10
So, I'm scanning with my light. I'm I'm
17:12
making a little trail on how I would do
17:14
it over the next couple of dives, what
17:16
I'd have to clear out.
17:18
And I was um panning with my light
17:21
right underneath me,
17:24
I looked and I was like,
17:27
"Holy That
17:29
that's the compass."
17:31
So now I'm like, "Screw the Lido deck
17:32
window. I'll look what's under me." You
17:34
know,
17:35
I'm flipping out. I'm like, now I'm
17:37
hyperventilating. I'm like, "All right,
17:38
Chris, stop, you idiot.
17:40
Compose yourself."
17:42
And I'm screaming. Brandon's 40 ft away
17:45
from me. He has no idea what's going on.
17:47
And I'm screaming,
17:49
I blow out of a hole and I'm
17:52
I like being very clean and neat, you
17:54
know, when I dive and I'm not working on
17:56
something. But no, I came out there,
17:57
blew the whole goddamn thing out,
17:59
running back out to the main line,
18:01
take my line and I put a jump off of
18:03
that, I run back into the room and I
18:05
drop my reel.
18:07
And I go, "Marked it.
18:09
That's marked. It's mine."
18:12
I come back out and I'm screaming.
18:14
Brandon has no idea what I'm screaming
18:15
about.
18:17
Well, I do that a lot, so he just kind
18:19
of just goes with it. Figures it out on
18:20
the surface.
18:22
And I'm like, "Let's go. We're going
18:23
up."
18:24
So we go up. We're starting on the hang
18:27
and I I pull up I pull my wet notes out
18:29
of my pocket and I'm like, "I found the
18:31
compass. I found the compass."
18:33
And I'm showing him.
18:35
And I can't wait to get up and tell Joe.
18:38
Me and Joe I I I think me and Joe always
18:40
have like this little secret competition
18:42
going on.
18:43
But I always like I sh- He's always been
18:45
like
18:48
He has
18:49
the eye of a damn hawk.
18:51
So whenever you know, whenever we're out
18:53
on a wreck, he finds the stuff and I'm
18:54
like, "How the hell did you find that?"
18:57
So this time I'm like, "I got him. I got
19:00
him."
19:03
And I, you know, it was the longest hang
19:05
ever cuz I can't wait to tell him.
19:08
And I'm climbing a ladder and I look
19:09
over at Joe and I was like, "We got a
19:11
lot of work to do, Joe."
19:14
He's cleaning something as he normally
19:16
would be doing. He looks over at me and
19:17
goes,
19:19
"What did you find, Chris?"
19:21
I was like, "I FOUND THE CONTENTS OF
19:23
IT." HE GOES,
19:26
HE GOES, "So did I."
19:30
I lost it. I was like, "There's no I was
19:32
like, there's no way you found it.
19:34
There's no way you I was like, tell me
19:36
where it is. How would you get it out of
19:37
that spot?" I was like, "There's no way
19:39
you Nobody would even go there." I was
19:41
like, "Why would anybody go there?"
19:44
He goes, "Oh my god." He goes, "If I had
19:46
to get it out of that spot," he goes,
19:47
"it would have to come up this way, and
19:49
I'd have to rig something this way, then
19:51
it would have to come over that
19:52
overhead, which is that way." And I'm
19:54
like, "You Oh my god."
19:57
I was like, "He knows exactly what he's
19:59
looking at."
20:01
I mean, I He Of course he knows what
20:03
he's looking at, but I thought he was
20:04
bullshitting.
20:06
And I'm like, "Oh my god."
20:08
I'm not going to lie, I was pretty upset
20:11
for all of 20 seconds because how of how
20:13
excited I was that whole dive.
20:16
But I was like, "All right.
20:18
It's coming up.
20:19
That's coming up. And this is dive
20:22
two now, right, Jen?" So, after after
20:24
Chris came up and we had a good laugh at
20:28
his expense about the fact that Joe
20:29
found it first. Um Chris was like, "It's
20:32
coming up. It's coming up this trip.
20:34
It's coming up." And Joe like pulled me
20:36
aside, he said, "There's no way this
20:38
thing is coming up this trip."
20:40
It was It was a substantial
20:42
project. And he didn't want to bring it
20:45
up. I could tell he wanted to look for
20:46
other things as he was like, "It's not
20:48
happening today. We got to figure out
20:49
how we're going to do it." But Chris was
20:52
so excited that eventually he just like
20:55
sucked Joe into his excitement, and
20:57
Chris is the reason that it came up,
20:59
honestly.
21:00
So, so one that one then, just just a
21:02
question. For I guess for you, Jen, is
21:04
so you're on the boat by yourself, is
21:06
that right? Um on those trips I always
21:09
make sure that there's somebody up there
21:10
with me because we're too far offshore
21:12
if something happens cuz we're anchored
21:14
to the wreck. So we we hook the wreck.
21:17
So if something happens and somebody
21:18
needs to jump in the chase boat,
21:20
somebody needs to be with the boat. Um
21:22
so we
21:24
we on those offshore trips there's
21:26
always two people on deck and actually
21:29
quite frankly when whenever we're doing
21:31
dive trips we have two people on the
21:32
boat just because you can't there's an
21:34
emergency one person is never going to
21:36
be able to handle it especially if they
21:38
have to get in the chase boat in a
21:39
current like that you have to get in the
21:41
chase boat and you got to go after
21:42
somebody. Um so I always have somebody
21:45
up there with me. Clearly Chris is going
21:47
to tell us he went down there, put all
21:49
this work in, dragged it out, got it
21:52
round the corner, got it up and
21:53
everything and then obviously sends it
21:55
up to the surface and goes way my job
21:57
here is done.
21:59
Then of course the really hard bit
22:01
starts which is which is probably the
22:03
bit that involves getting it onto the
22:04
boat. The part the part the part that
22:06
almost broke my finger on this one.
22:08
Yes I was crashing into the thing
22:10
holding on to it. We do not have a lift.
22:13
Okay. No no you don't not a diver lift
22:15
you've got a a crane or something.
22:16
>> a yeah we have an A-frame. We have an
22:18
A-frame on the back of the boat. So what
22:20
we do is it's connected you know we it
22:22
comes up on the lift bag and then it's
22:25
this this time we tied a line to it so
22:27
it was tied to the boat. It was
22:28
drifting.
22:30
I think Chris came up at that point.
22:33
Yeah.
22:33
>> And I was holding on to it
22:36
while Chris went out and rigged it so
22:38
that we could safely pull it closer to
22:39
the boat and it was one of those things
22:42
where the current just turned on. So I'm
22:44
pulling it close to the boat. I'm
22:45
pulling it by myself back to the boat.
22:47
There was another guy up there but I
22:49
don't know what he was doing. I was
22:50
pulling it closer to the boat and all of
22:52
a sudden the current just took that
22:53
thing like a sail and took me from the
22:55
middle of the boat all the way to the
22:58
back to where the A-frame is and I
22:59
crashed my hand like my whole knuckle
23:01
was scarred. I
23:03
for like a couple of weeks I couldn't
23:05
bend my arm. I'm like holding onto this
23:07
thing like a sail. So you you bled for
23:09
that compass. I did bleed for that
23:12
compass. Absolutely. I thought my finger
23:14
was broken.
23:15
I'm going to put it out there. I bet
23:16
nobody ever talks about that bit.
23:21
Cuz that's
23:22
that's the joy of being a that's joy joy
23:24
of being a dive boat skipper, isn't it?
23:25
Cuz all the none of the glamour ever
23:27
happens on the surface. It all happens
23:29
all happens in the in the water. So So I
23:32
I guess how many dives did it take you
23:34
to get it out then, Chris? So it was
23:37
after that second dive it was three more
23:39
dives. We had five dives on the trip.
23:41
Wow. And it was not easy by any means. I
23:44
mean we you know we I would say we lost
23:46
faith a couple of times, but you know
23:48
one guy would and the other guy would be
23:49
like, "No, it's coming." You know, it'd
23:50
be vice versa.
23:52
And it was a new plan every time. It was
23:54
like, "All right, well that I'm not
23:55
going to say that didn't work. We made
23:56
progress on every dive.
23:59
Significant progress.
24:01
After that dive
24:04
that I said we're going to get it
24:06
me and Joe made a plan that, "All right,
24:08
well there's two potential exits from
24:11
that area.
24:13
The way that we think it's going to come
24:14
out is covered by nets.
24:18
So our next dive was just to go down
24:21
me and him cut all those nets away and
24:23
get that drug far
24:26
out of our way because we were going to
24:27
salt it out when we were in there
24:28
working pulling all these whole plates
24:30
out and all of that.
24:32
So we didn't want that to be a thing. So
24:33
we we went down there. We made quick
24:35
work of a net.
24:37
Um
24:38
and then we got to
24:40
pulling just whole plates and my my Lido
24:43
deck window was one of the piece of
24:44
debris that was flying out the room and
24:46
nobody cared about you know and I didn't
24:48
either.
24:49
Um and we made a little assembly line
24:52
with two people. I I was pulling
24:53
and I throw it behind me and here's Joe
24:56
and he grabs that and he throws it
24:57
further.
24:59
And I mean we excavated
25:01
I mean it was it was nuts how much we
25:04
pulled out of this this area.
25:07
So we were able to see the base of this
25:09
thing.
25:10
Um
25:12
and that was deceiving from what we saw
25:14
before. It was a lot bigger base than
25:15
what we thought it was.
25:17
We were able to find out it was draped
25:19
in cables. So you had you know the tape
25:21
the taper down. There was cables draped
25:24
around both sides of this thing. So
25:26
we're like all right, those aren't just
25:27
wires.
25:29
They're cables. They're not ropes.
25:31
We cleared most of that out.
25:33
Um so you know we came up the next dive
25:35
we we grabbed
25:36
crowbars and we grabbed cable cutters
25:39
and we grabbed a bunch of stuff.
25:41
You know and Joe Joe ended up taping a
25:43
knife like a Rambo knife to a bolt pole.
25:46
It was such a constricting area to get
25:48
into.
25:50
Put it this way. I told Joe if I go down
25:52
there with all the the pieces of debris
25:55
that are jutting out. If I'm able to
25:57
squeeze myself down there.
25:59
You're going to have you can't leave.
26:00
You're going to have to pull me out by
26:02
my fins as I clear things as you're
26:04
pulling me. Cuz I know I'm going to get
26:06
caught like a Chinese finger trap.
26:09
And talking about putting your life in
26:11
somebody's hands because I couldn't get
26:12
out there I couldn't get out by myself.
26:14
Wow.
26:14
>> Um and that's what it took.
26:16
And um Joe's rigging is you know
26:20
multiple straps.
26:21
Uh I think it was like a 2,000 lb bag
26:24
that we put on it. Well, I forgot what
26:25
it was. It was a huge bag that we put on
26:27
it.
26:28
Um you know it took an 80 to fill it.
26:31
And just
26:32
you know shifting it this way and then
26:35
putting the strap down, bringing the
26:36
strap out the other side of the room,
26:37
picking the base up.
26:39
Seeing which way she naturally would
26:40
come out.
26:42
Um and on the fifth dive
26:45
we got it.
26:46
And
26:47
and Joe Joe throws me his we have a if
26:50
we we carry emergency upline. So like I
26:52
don't know what kind of reels you guys
26:53
use there. I think you use Kent, right?
26:55
Yeah. Yeah. But, we use light monkey.
26:58
And there's a 1,200-ft light monkey
27:01
reel.
27:02
And we'll take all the cave line off of
27:03
that, we'll put paracord 550 on it.
27:06
So, it's just a more
27:08
you know, significant more substantial
27:10
line to hold as an emergency upline. If
27:12
we have to shoot a bag, cut it, tie it
27:14
to the wreck, there's our upline if we
27:16
got lost. Joe throws me that reel, and
27:18
he goes, "I got to get out of here." He
27:20
goes, "You got it? Can you send it?" I
27:22
said, "Yes, I'll send it up."
27:24
And that was it. Came up.
27:27
>> At the surface, we thought that it was
27:28
Chris's Lido deck window, because we
27:30
knew that there was Lido deck window
27:31
down there that he wanted. And when he
27:33
came up,
27:34
I said I remember leaning over and
27:36
saying to Chris, "It's the window,
27:37
right?" And he goes, "No." He's like,
27:39
"We've got it." He was like banging on
27:41
the back of the deck.
27:42
It was really exciting. You mainly fill
27:44
the bag. You then send up a a line with
27:48
a with a buoy on it.
27:51
And then you get that that onto the
27:52
boat, and then when all the divers are
27:54
up, that's when you then pull it and get
27:55
it to the surface. Is that correct?
27:58
>> yeah. Yeah.
27:59
>> Yeah, okay. So, then you go
28:00
>> down to the wreck.
28:01
So, I put I put his upline on it, right?
28:03
So, we Joe put a breakaway on it, so
28:06
when it shot out of the wreck, it
28:07
wouldn't go up uncontrolled. Yeah.
28:09
>> Right? So, when it came out of the the
28:11
overhead, it would still be tied down to
28:13
the wreck.
28:15
So, that was our breakaway.
28:17
And
28:18
from there, when Joe left, I would take
28:20
his upline.
28:21
I would tie it to the bottom of the bag.
28:24
Get everything clear. Make sure I wasn't
28:27
in the way, make sure it wasn't going to
28:28
catch anything. Get everything situated,
28:30
all the stuff cleaned up, all the tools.
28:33
And then once everything would be clear,
28:34
I would go, and I would cut the upline
28:36
with the reel in my you know, my right
28:37
or my left hand, whatever it was.
28:40
And I'd send it. So, the reel screaming
28:41
out of my hand,
28:43
I know it's on the surface, just like if
28:45
an SMB hits the surface. Pull some slack
28:47
out, tie it down to the wreck.
28:51
Now she's not drifting away. While, you
28:53
know, everybody's getting sorted on
28:55
you know, top side.
28:56
Yeah, okay. Okay, so it's really
28:58
interesting. It's it's not a technique
29:00
that we use, but then obviously our
29:02
diving procedures are different to yours
29:03
anyway because we never anchor into a
29:05
wall wreck. We don't use up lines. We
29:07
always use drifting
29:10
lazy shot systems and everything. So it
29:11
is it is it is very different. Actually,
29:13
this might be a good point to talk about
29:15
the systems that you use. I guess you've
29:17
explained a bit already. You anchor into
29:19
the wreck and then do Is it the anchor
29:20
line that people go up and down or do
29:22
you put another line on the wreck?
29:24
Another line. So a traverse line, a
29:25
Carolina Carolina rig we call it.
29:28
What do you call your you have your lazy
29:30
shot? And the lazy shot, is it not like
29:33
the Carolina rig that we have? So we
29:35
have a All right.
29:37
So we have our anchor line. Yeah. Go
29:39
ahead, Jen. Oh, no, I was saying cuz
29:41
with the with the lazy shot, you then it
29:43
goes free and the boat stays with the
29:45
people. Okay. water. So you're kind of
29:48
drifting.
29:49
Um
29:50
yeah. It is a very different system. So
29:52
you you have your you're anchored into
29:54
the wreck. You put down a a line
29:57
that goes onto the wreck and that's what
29:59
you another line that's what you would
30:01
send to descend. And is that that's at
30:02
the back of the boat, is it?
30:04
Right.
30:05
Yeah, okay. That must mean I guess when
30:08
you're doing your decompression that
30:09
you're in quite a lot of current.
30:12
Yep. So you're kind of using John lines
30:15
or whatever to hold on.
30:17
Exactly. John lines, I mean when there's
30:19
no current we'll
30:21
we hang off the line Jen.
30:23
No, no, go ahead. Go ahead.
30:25
A few of us
30:27
like to hang off the line free.
30:29
Right? So you anticipate current, you
30:32
kind of know where you're at.
30:34
You know that if you're over the Doria,
30:35
you're not you're not 20 ft 30 ft off
30:37
the line. You're within a couple of feet
30:39
of the line. Just in case that current
30:40
turns up or when it does,
30:42
you're able to grab it.
30:44
And we also have our scooters on us, but
30:46
those could fail, right? The likelihood
30:47
is slim, but they could.
30:50
And if you you get blown off out there,
30:51
you're a hundred and something miles
30:52
offshore, good luck. And it has
30:54
happened. It has happened where we have
30:56
had people come up and just like
31:00
you don't think the human body can move
31:02
that fast in a current and just get just
31:04
go. So, I I'm always on them because I
31:07
freak out if I can't see them. If
31:08
they're if they're if they're 20 ft or
31:11
10 ft and they're moving so far away
31:12
from the line that I can't see them,
31:15
somebody gets a talking to. How far down
31:17
can you see divers then, Jen?
31:20
Depends on the day. I mean, there's
31:21
times I can see them at the stop on the
31:23
Carolina at 40 ft on the Carolina. Most
31:26
most often I really can't. I can see
31:29
fins, so I can say, "Okay, there's the
31:30
green fins, there's the blue fins,
31:32
there's something." Like I can
31:34
I can see fins at like 40 ft usually,
31:38
but usually it's like 20
31:40
30, 20 ft is when I can really start to
31:42
see what's going on down there. I I
31:44
guess you don't know where all your
31:45
divers are until they get to that point
31:47
in that case. Yeah. And And you I think
31:50
you said you had a chase boat, so
31:52
presumably the chase boat is there if
31:53
you see a a bag coming up off the back
31:55
of the boat, somebody gets in the in the
31:57
chase boat and goes and follows it. Is
31:59
that right? Yeah, so the chase boat
32:02
if somebody is really drifted it kind of
32:04
depends on what the situation is.
32:06
But yes, if somebody is in distress in
32:08
the water or there's an artifact that
32:10
somebody floats and it's floating free,
32:11
we can jump in the chase boat and go and
32:14
grab it. I have to say the the idea of
32:16
doing decompression in strong currents
32:19
sounds horrible to me. You know,
32:20
question for you, you know, we have this
32:22
system that works really well. I guess
32:24
why don't you use it? What Why do you,
32:26
you know, use a system that you do? I
32:28
mean, I think that yeah, I mean, you
32:30
know, and and sometimes the answer is
32:31
because we've always done it that way.
32:32
It's a good question.
32:34
I was going to I that. You got the old
32:36
school and the new school. But also
32:38
where we're diving predominantly, like
32:40
when we're diving off the coast of New
32:41
Jersey, we're not it's it's not like
32:44
massive currents the way you have. I
32:45
mean, you have with my understanding and
32:47
I mean, we were at the Lusitania and
32:49
some other places over there, but my
32:51
understanding is that you pretty much
32:52
have currents all the time.
32:55
We don't You know, at the Doria, you
32:57
have a current that turns on and off.
32:58
When we're going far off the coast of
33:00
Nantucket, there's uh those are the kind
33:03
of dives where you're waiting all day
33:04
for your break. You get one shot at
33:06
going in.
33:07
Um but for the most part, I would say
33:09
75% of our diving, it's not the current
33:13
is not that much of an issue. You can
33:14
correct me if if if you would disagree
33:16
with that, Chris. 50
33:18
50? Okay.
33:22
But it is and
33:24
and one of the things we're looking at,
33:25
right? Like we're looking at procedures,
33:26
we're looking at other ways of doing
33:28
things. Um
33:30
it's not something that I mean,
33:32
sometimes we'll break out of a wreck if
33:34
like the current is really bad and we'll
33:35
make a plan and say, "If we break out,
33:37
we're just going to drift." And people
33:39
can
33:40
you know, so they know if we break out
33:43
on this dive
33:45
Well, I mean, I would say I would love
33:47
to drift. You know, when we go when I go
33:49
to Florida or whatever, you know, I have
33:50
no problem shooting a bag and drifting.
33:52
That's how they do it. I love it. I
33:54
think it's relaxing. You know, not
33:55
fighting the current. It's great.
33:58
But we're also most of the times we're
34:00
over these wrecks for two, three, four
34:01
days.
34:03
So when we're you know, we want to
34:04
anchor up, we want to stay.
34:06
And the other thing, too, is that you
34:08
know, and and again, I haven't done a
34:10
ton of of of trips in the UK, but you
34:14
guys seems like you tend to all go in at
34:16
once. Like everybody kind of goes in at
34:18
once
34:19
and they all come up. So you can all be
34:20
on the lazy shot drifting together. We
34:23
don't do it that way. So we're sending
34:25
in divers two at a time at various
34:27
intervals and then they're coming up. So
34:30
we really wouldn't have We don't have
34:31
these like mass decoys where everybody's
34:33
coming up and deoying at the same time.
34:35
Right. Okay. That's really interesting.
34:37
Yeah, I know it is very different
34:38
because we know we're able to predict
34:40
when the tidal windows are and they're
34:42
relatively short. So everybody goes in
34:45
at the same time so that everybody does
34:46
the dive without any tide. But then
34:49
obviously when you're deoying you know
34:50
there's going to be tide so you're going
34:51
to end up two, three, four miles away
34:53
from where you start and that's pretty
34:55
grim if you're trying to hang on a hang
34:57
on a line in those kind of currents. And
34:59
we don't do that much diving where it's
35:01
so tidal that you you have to put
35:04
everybody in. I mean that the only time
35:06
that I've experienced that is those
35:07
trips on George's Bank. Like really far
35:10
offshore where you're getting near the
35:11
the continental shelf and all that where
35:13
then we're staring at the water, putting
35:15
people in and it would have been nice to
35:17
maybe do something like that out there.
35:19
I guess it's one of those things. It
35:20
just shows how divers, wherever they are
35:22
in the world, they adjust their
35:24
techniques to what suits their own
35:25
conditions and that's
35:27
obviously you guys have done it for a
35:28
very long time and it worked really well
35:30
for you so must be must be the right
35:32
thing to do, I guess,
35:33
even if it seems a bit alien
35:36
to somebody like me who's a used to a
35:38
really different environment. I think it
35:40
would be really useful actually to
35:41
understand. I think you've touched on it
35:42
a bit there about actually how the
35:45
Tenacious operates in terms of you go
35:47
out for those long trips, you anchor in,
35:49
you know, you put people in
35:51
a couple of the time. What what does
35:53
life look like on a on a trip for you
35:55
for you guys? So it's it's fairly laid
35:58
back, I would say. I mean, we so we get
36:01
there. So on these long trips we get
36:02
there we usually leave at night so we
36:05
kind of steam we motor slow and you
36:07
know,
36:08
get there. It's a plan to get there like
36:11
first thing in the morning, like arrive
36:12
to the site at like 6:00 a.m. and the we
36:14
hook. The first set of divers goes in,
36:17
we make an order who's going to set,
36:19
who's going to go next, right? We make
36:21
the order. Everybody comes up. We have
36:24
lunch. It's kind of a big deal on the
36:26
boat because we like really like good
36:28
food, so we have these big lunches. And
36:31
then dive the next dive after that.
36:33
Everybody sleeps and relaxes, and then
36:36
they go back in again.
36:37
Um and obviously the order matters a
36:39
little bit less when it's in the middle
36:41
of the trip because if you're not
36:43
assigned to pull or you're not setting,
36:45
it kind of doesn't It's like dive when
36:46
you want to dive. And
36:48
>> Okay. um
36:49
that it's And then at the end of the
36:51
trip, um you usually do one dive in the
36:53
morning and then pull and then start to
36:56
head back so we get back to the dock. It
36:59
usually puts us back to the dock at
37:01
11:00 at night on that last night. Yes,
37:04
all the work in the morning.
37:07
I was going to say, well, apart from
37:08
that bit, the rest of it so the rest of
37:10
it sounds really sounds really nice. And
37:12
who decides who cooks or do do you have
37:14
do you take it in turns or are there
37:16
some people who are really good Are you
37:18
cook, Digger?
37:18
>> I do all the cooking.
37:20
Oh, wow. Okay.
37:22
Yeah.
37:23
Um It It's funny cuz now it's like
37:26
there's too many things to do. I think
37:27
the quality of food is going to go down
37:29
significantly this
37:31
now that I'm kind of running things. But
37:33
yeah, I know that's uh that was actually
37:35
one of the ways I started to get more
37:36
involved in the boat is I was trying to
37:39
think like what like stress can I take
37:41
off of Joe that I I can help with. And
37:44
one of my first sort of contributions to
37:46
D to Nations was becoming the cook. So,
37:49
um I try to prepare good stuff that
37:51
people want to eat, and we eat three
37:53
meals a day and two snacks a day when
37:55
we're out there. Um so nobody has to
37:57
bring any food onto the boat. It's all
37:59
there. We have it all for everybody.
38:02
Sounds fantastic for everybody apart
38:03
from you, if I'm honest.
38:06
Seven Seven desserts, seven course of
38:08
dessert a day?
38:10
I mean, other things people have be
38:11
interested in, you know, so this you
38:13
know, how do you work things like uh
38:15
costs? Does everyone chuck in for the
38:17
fuel? I guess that's probably the case.
38:19
Does everyone chuck in for servicing
38:21
costs and maintenance or, you know
38:23
How does that work? Yes, so we share
38:26
expenses of the trip.
38:29
So if we're doing a trip to the Andrea
38:31
Doria, we kind of take what food and
38:33
fuel is and
38:35
there the dockage costs because we're
38:37
moving the boat for that and we just
38:39
split it evenly. So you know it's we're
38:40
not like making a profit off of a
38:42
charter. It's
38:44
it's really just friends sharing
38:46
expenses. Oh wow, how nice. And and the
38:49
people that you you know is it like a
38:50
fixed team or have you got like a team
38:52
of you know a wider team and then a
38:54
segment of those go on each trip, you
38:57
know, how does that how does that work?
38:59
So we have a core group of people. I
39:01
mean we do have some people who do
39:03
prefer shower diving. We have some
39:05
people who are still on open circuit and
39:07
then we have like a core team of sort of
39:09
the hardcore rebreather divers that are
39:11
going to be doing these big trips.
39:14
So what we'll do is you know every week
39:16
we don't have a schedule because we're
39:18
not a charter like it's like what do we
39:19
feel like doing this weekend? This is
39:21
what we feel like doing this weekend. I
39:22
put out an email and then people say I
39:24
want on
39:26
um
39:26
And the only trips that we really
39:28
schedule in advance are those summer
39:30
those trips that are far offshore in the
39:32
summer time. We'll set those for July
39:33
and August but the rest of it is like
39:36
who's got a project? What are we working
39:37
on? What do we want to try to accomplish
39:40
and we and does the weather match what
39:42
it is that we want to do and then it's
39:44
good to go. That sounds really really
39:46
nice and very similar actually to Dark
39:49
Star which as you know I go out with
39:51
there's some you know great kind of
39:52
similarities between the two the two
39:54
groups. In terms of how many people can
39:56
you get on the boat? I would say we we
39:58
comfortably will accommodate seven
40:01
really because we have the six bunks in
40:04
the bow and then we have a pull out
40:06
in the main cabin that can become a bed.
40:09
So
40:11
it's really on these offshore trips
40:13
we'll go with with seven. From the
40:15
photos I've seen it must be quite
40:16
crowded with all the gear and all the
40:18
people and the galley and everything.
40:21
Oh, and what do you do when you're out
40:22
there about gas? It's diesel. So, we
40:25
>> No, no. Sorry, don't not gas. Um, what
40:27
>> Oh, gas gas. I thought you meant fuel. I
40:29
was like
40:29
>> No, no, no.
40:30
We carry a lot of of diesel. Um,
40:33
so we everybody brings most for those
40:36
trips everybody's on a rebreather. Yeah.
40:39
So, we really don't have to worry about
40:41
it. If everybody's on the rebreather and
40:42
has the appropriate bailout, that'll
40:44
last for the whole trip. Yeah, I was
40:46
thinking more about suit gas tends to be
40:48
one of the things that we have
40:50
limitations with. So, if you're doing
40:52
that many dives, people will need their
40:53
suit inflate cylinders fit filled. I
40:56
don't know, Christie. You might want to
40:58
talk about that because I I don't we've
41:00
not really had any problems with that.
41:01
If we're going to be out for we have
41:03
done some trips that are in the 5-7 day
41:07
range. They're rare. And on those we
41:10
have a compressor that we'll bring and
41:12
we can we can fill or bring bottles and
41:14
we can transfer. Um, but on the the the
41:17
the regular
41:19
like a 3 or 4 day Dorian trip, everybody
41:21
seems to be able to bring what they're
41:22
using.
41:24
What are you guys using, Don? Are you
41:25
using sixes for inflation or
41:27
Like, I use 13s.
41:30
So, I'll get two guys out of a 13 and
41:32
then I'll just bring three 13s with me.
41:35
Other guys will use sixes or bring five
41:37
sixes with them. If for some reason
41:40
somebody runs out because of XYZ,
41:43
we'll transfill off somebody's bottle.
41:46
Yeah. I mean, so what we what we do is
41:48
very different to you. So, we we don't
41:50
go out for long periods of time. We just
41:52
go out and back every day.
41:54
So, we will normally if we go somewhere,
41:56
we will somebody will take a small
41:57
compressor with them and then in the
41:58
evening we'll we'll pump up stuff. That
42:01
is yeah, which is why I was kind of
42:02
interested in the way that you do it cuz
42:04
I you know, there are things that are
42:05
different and that and that's definitely
42:07
one of them. One of the interesting
42:08
things you touched on it already, Jen,
42:10
is is the diver lift. Obviously, in in
42:13
the UK everybody every dive boat in
42:15
existence has got a diver lift and we
42:17
love them to bits and we everybody looks
42:20
at American and other country dive boats
42:23
and goes, "Where's the lift?" Yes. I
42:25
think everybody else said this before
42:26
she says it. What?
42:28
I think I know the answer. I I I know
42:30
the answer to it. I know the real
42:31
answer.
42:32
The boat's just ready.
42:38
Sadly, that is one of the
42:40
Um so I I think
42:43
Yes, there's obviously we all know the
42:45
obvious benefits of a lift. Um for us
42:47
it's a space consideration, right? The
42:50
boat's 45 ft. It's not a huge boat. So
42:54
there's space consideration, they're
42:55
bulky, there's a lot of that can go
42:58
wrong with them, there's a lot of
42:59
maintenance that's involved in them. We
43:01
do a lot of side scan sonar operations.
43:04
So the lift can interfere if you're
43:06
towing a fish. Um we we do a lot of so
43:10
and and a year we're doing a lot of
43:12
sonar. We're often just bringing sonar
43:13
with us and running over things when
43:15
we're far offshore. So it becomes
43:17
something that could easily like the
43:18
sonar could get connected could get
43:20
caught up in.
43:22
Um
43:23
And you know and I will tell you like
43:26
And this is I guess this is a secret.
43:27
This is an exclusive to you. Joe had a
43:29
terrible history with lifts.
43:32
He hated them.
43:33
Okay.
43:34
>> Every time he was on a dive boat that
43:36
had a lift, he crushed, cracked, or
43:38
screwed up something with the lift. So
43:41
he just had this like karma thing with
43:44
lifts that he would say he never had
43:45
one. So while
43:47
I I think the real answer is it just I
43:49
think it interferes with a lot of our
43:50
operations, but
43:52
behind the scenes there was this
43:54
deep-seated hatred of lifts.
43:57
That that Joe had because of how many
43:59
pieces of equipment he'd crushed in
44:01
them. He just never got the hang. Okay.
44:03
Um and I think one other thing about
44:05
about the the lift is our divers are
44:08
taking off bailout and hanging them on
44:11
the line. They want to get rid of their
44:13
bailout because we're not drifting,
44:15
right? Because you're
44:17
holding on to a line, they're going to
44:19
be taking off their bailout and they put
44:21
it on an equipment line that we'll haul
44:22
up from the surface. So, you know, if we
44:25
have a lift, then everybody is in all of
44:27
that gear
44:29
the whole way to the surface. So, the
44:31
hang becomes more problematic
44:34
at that point. Tom, your boats are in
44:37
the UK. Aren't your boats a lot taller?
44:40
Or I I I think they're they look a lot
44:42
taller than ours. Like we're you know,
44:44
no more than
44:46
a foot and a half off the waterline.
44:48
It's our swim platform. So, it's not
44:50
it's not a big climb at all. It's three
44:52
or four rungs up the ladder.
44:55
You may take this the wrong way and
44:56
apologies if you do. We I would say that
44:59
we probably go out in rougher seas than
45:02
what I would think what I would think
45:04
you guys do. And and
45:06
and therefore our boats are probably
45:09
designed to cope with that, which is why
45:11
they've got a higher freeboard. And
45:13
that's why, you know, we get out the
45:15
water in rougher seas and therefore, you
45:17
know, that's why the lift is more
45:18
importance. We we do use something
45:20
called a fishing line, which is the
45:24
everyone's drifting along on the on the
45:25
lazy shot and the boat will chuck a line
45:28
in that goes down to maybe 20 m, so 60
45:31
ft. And it's got every meter or 3 ft,
45:35
it's got a
45:37
a clip on it or a so you can you can
45:39
people swim over to it, they'll take off
45:41
their their deep bailouts or their
45:43
scooters or whatever it else it is and
45:45
then the boat will pull them on board.
45:46
So, we do get rid of our stuff, but you
45:49
can't do that in really big seas because
45:52
obviously the boat just can't get it
45:53
back on board. They can't get the
45:55
fishing line back on board the boat. So,
45:57
the time you really need it, it's not
45:58
it's not available. And that's where the
46:00
lift obviously becomes important. And I
46:02
think perhaps our weather's a bit more
46:03
changeable as well. So, you can go in
46:06
and it'll be absolutely fine and you can
46:08
come out and it will be quite horrible.
46:10
So, you know, once again, it's it's
46:12
about stuff for different conditions, I
46:14
think.
46:15
Yeah.
46:15
>> got asked about that on the boat. Yeah.
46:18
Yeah, I mean, you What? No, I I was
46:20
saying we'll we'll be out we'll be out
46:22
there on the deck and
46:24
we'll be looking at the weather and I'm
46:25
like, "Come on. You see those guys in
46:26
the UK?" I'm like, "Could you stop?
46:29
Let's just go." They're 3-ft. These guys
46:31
are going out in 6- and 9-footers. I'm
46:33
like, "Come on." Yeah, you will get
46:36
noticed people from us that But I'm I'm
46:38
off of the child. Yeah, you get noticed
46:40
people from us that your weather is much
46:41
more challenging. It's funny like I
46:43
remember being on the Lusitania chucking
46:45
that thing cuz it was it was, you know,
46:47
me and the captain and I think Owen was
46:49
with me one day. It was really Owen was
46:51
with us. It was really, really rough.
46:53
And it was just me and him on the back
46:54
deck. And Joe was such a diva about
46:57
taking his bottles. Like he would always
46:58
be like, "Make sure you throw all of
47:00
those bottles. We need to put" like he
47:01
did not want to deco with any bottles.
47:03
So, I'm throwing that bucket while
47:06
everybody and pulling it up and
47:07
eventually Owen was just like, "I don't
47:08
want to do this anymore." And Owen sat
47:11
down and I was like, "I got to do it cuz
47:14
I don't want him to yell when he comes
47:15
up to the surface." Oh, wow. Okay. Oh,
47:18
just kidding. No, I mean, he was he was
47:20
helping me, but it was really funny. He
47:21
was like he's like, "They're just being
47:23
babies."
47:24
We have a lift. I was like, "I know, but
47:26
it'll crush something in it."
47:28
Okay. Okay. Okay, well, that Okay, we I
47:31
guess we we've done that cuz it was one
47:33
of the you know, when we did those
47:34
questions on Facebook, it was one of the
47:35
things that came out, wasn't it? So, I
47:36
felt I felt I had to do that otherwise
47:39
there would be clearly there'd be people
47:40
who getting
47:41
you know, getting distressed about it.
47:43
So, there we go. Uh one other thing
47:45
actually, a diving question that was
47:46
also on there. What How do you we've
47:48
mentioned it already. How do you guys
47:49
deal with numbers of cylinders you
47:51
carry? What's your bailout system? I
47:53
mean, you're probably wearing the you
47:55
know, over here we are we're all in
47:56
favor of of chucking loads of cylinders
47:58
over the side of the boat. Is that what
48:00
you guys do or do you do bailout
48:02
rebreathers? You know, how do you handle
48:04
it?
48:05
Some guys will do they'll they'll lean
48:07
towards the team bailout. Um I have
48:09
sometimes depends on what we're doing.
48:11
What the mission is.
48:13
Um we also have T bottles on the boat,
48:15
so we drop down regulators onto that
48:18
Carolina rig or our deco station.
48:21
Um
48:23
It's great. It's it's it's definitely a
48:25
big redundancy and you should be back on
48:27
you should be back on the downline.
48:30
But we do tend to carry all of our own
48:32
bailout. Each person because again
48:36
Usually we'll we'll go down in a pair,
48:38
but we'll split up at the bottom. Right?
48:40
So what good is the the team bailout
48:42
system if you're not together? And what
48:44
good is are the second stages if you
48:47
don't find a way back to that line for
48:48
whatever reason.
48:49
It is there as a redundancy, but yes, we
48:51
do carry all of our own bailout for that
48:54
dive. So on a on what uh you know, big
48:56
dive, you know, 100 odd meter dive or
48:58
whatever, how many cylinders will you go
48:59
in with? Up to four. Okay.
49:02
>> Five if needed. It sucks.
49:05
You know, how do you guys do it? Pretty
49:07
much only ever go in with two.
49:09
And our our policy is because obviously
49:13
our boat is mobile and it's it's it's
49:15
circling around and we have all these
49:17
cylinders on board the boat. Our policy
49:19
is that you have to get back to about 50
49:21
m. You put up a bag, then the world
49:24
supply cylinders come down to you and
49:26
it's one of those things that we
49:27
practice and I've I've seen it work
49:30
maybe three times. So it is
49:33
and it's pretty standard all the way
49:34
around the British Isles. Some groups
49:36
don't do that, but most of them do. One
49:38
of our concerns is
49:40
um if you're carrying four or five
49:42
stages on a boat and the weather's a bit
49:45
sloppy and a bit lumpy, clearly there's
49:47
quite a big risk of falling over. And if
49:49
you fall over, that's going to be really
49:51
painful.
49:52
And potentially
49:54
serious. So, yeah, it's like balancing
49:57
risks, isn't it?
49:59
Yeah, most of us like, well, if I put on
50:03
I mean, yeah, I put on four bottles. And
50:04
then if you got a fifth
50:06
and it's tail clipped, somebody will be
50:08
back the swim platform. You'd have one
50:11
guy on the left with your with your
50:13
scooter, one guy on the right with the
50:14
tail flip bottle, he'll rig up your
50:16
scooter for you, stand it up on the
50:18
nose.
50:19
And then the other guy will be clipping,
50:20
you know, the other bottle on your ass
50:23
on your way in.
50:24
And we also have protocols for well,
50:26
let's say
50:28
let's say you lose one of your bailouts.
50:29
And let's say you did have to bail out.
50:31
You know, there's protocols in place for
50:34
if a bad you know, if a certain bag
50:35
comes up
50:37
we're just lost on the wreck. It's fine.
50:39
Right? We're We're just coming up on our
50:41
own upline. We have other protocols to
50:43
where if we send up, you know, an
50:45
additional bag
50:46
we need help. We need gas, whatever it
50:49
is. And the diver will jump in and send
50:51
it down to you.
50:53
Yeah, I know. Okay, fantastic. That's
50:55
That's really useful. It's That was
50:57
another one of the questions that was
50:59
out there on that Facebook chat. So,
51:01
it's kind of really interesting to hear
51:02
your strategies and, you know, to kind
51:04
of hear out the similarities but also
51:06
also differences. Moving on,
51:09
it would be useful I think maybe just to
51:11
touch on a couple of the other projects
51:13
that you've got. And I know Jen, you
51:14
sent me a whole list of them which is
51:16
absolutely amazing. And there's there's
51:17
like material for about another five or
51:19
six chapters and we should definitely do
51:21
another one of these cuz it's been
51:22
absolutely fantastic. But just kind of
51:24
give us a bit of a feel for some of
51:25
those.
51:26
So,
51:27
yeah, so I think
51:29
one of the the more significant things
51:31
that we have been doing recently is
51:32
exploring shipwrecks on George's Bank.
51:35
And that was something that started in
51:38
in earnest in 2020. But I have to admit
51:42
really started back in 2016 when I, you
51:45
you
51:45
um, Takajian who's a captain, a very
51:48
prolific shipwreck hunter from
51:50
Massachusetts, who's found more than 80
51:51
shipwrecks, um, had been looking for
51:54
that in the 1990s. And there was a day
51:57
in 2016 when I said to Joe, "Give me a a
52:00
shipwreck to research, like one you
52:02
haven't found." And he just said, "The
52:04
Lena." Which was a French passenger
52:07
steamship that sank in 1856, built in
52:10
1855,
52:11
really unique horizontal steam engine,
52:14
uh, you know, in that time period of the
52:16
transition of sail to steam to sail, and
52:19
this really early 1850s engine, just a
52:22
cool wreck. So, I started researching
52:24
it, and it was a project that had been
52:26
on the back burner for a long time. I
52:28
started researching it, and then amassed
52:30
enough research that in 2020,
52:34
Eric felt confident that we had narrowed
52:36
down a search area.
52:38
And I remember every year I used to take
52:39
all of my research, and I would we'd go
52:41
to Eric's house and into his office,
52:43
which is a room called the bunk I call
52:44
the bunker, cuz it's it's it's detached
52:47
from his house, and he has all these
52:48
shipwreck artifacts in there. It's the
52:50
coolest place.
52:51
And I would bring a folder that said the
52:53
Lena on the side, and I would hand it to
52:55
him, and he would go through things, and
52:57
he would take out a chart, and he would
52:58
do stuff on it, and he'd talk to Joe
53:00
about the numbers. And in 2020, he said,
53:03
"We can start to search."
53:05
And I was all excited, and then I got in
53:07
the car with Joe, and we were starting
53:09
to leave, and he said, "It's too far.
53:11
The boat can't
53:13
we can't get there with the boat."
53:15
And I was upset, and I, you know, I
53:17
didn't show him I was upset, because
53:19
what am I going to do? We don't have a
53:20
boat. So, we started thinking about
53:21
other options, other plans. And then
53:23
about 2 weeks later, he came to me and
53:24
he said, "I have an idea.
53:26
We're going to put a new engine in the
53:27
boat,
53:28
and we're going to increase our fuel
53:29
capacity."
53:31
Like normal people, right?
53:34
So, we bought a new engine,
53:36
um, that allowed us to, um,
53:39
go further. We got, you know, better
53:41
range, and we increased our increased
53:43
our fuel capacity to 770 gallons. So, we
53:46
can carry a lot of fuel.
53:49
Um and that enabled us to start doing
53:50
these searches that are farther offshore
53:53
into Jordan's Bank. So,
53:55
um
53:56
So, we started researching shipwrecks
53:58
out there. Our first trips out there
54:00
were 2022. So, we did 2022, we did
54:02
scanning. 2023, we did scanning. 2024,
54:07
we dived two of the wrecks. One of them
54:09
did turn out to be the L'Aine.
54:11
Um and then we dived another wreck that
54:13
we referred to as the Big Engine
54:14
Steamer. Um and then in 2025,
54:18
we identified the third of the three
54:21
significant shipwrecks we thought we
54:22
found out there, which was the Sena,
54:24
which was a uh really unique um
54:27
steam trawler steam-powered trawler that
54:30
sank with all hands in 1929.
54:33
So, these wrecks are When I That's what
54:35
I was saying earlier about being far.
54:38
These wrecks are 150 mi from Nantucket.
54:40
They're 200 mi from our launch point.
54:43
So, from New Bedford, they're about 200
54:45
mi offshore. So, you're talking like
54:49
a lot more range. These trips are a lot
54:52
more remote.
54:56
Fun, you know, being out there and doing
54:58
these um these expeditions in an area
55:01
that I'm not going to say was undived
55:02
because that's not the case. Somebody
55:05
has been diving out there. But,
55:07
really we were the first people to start
55:09
exploring this area. So, you know, we
55:12
feel like we have more work to do out
55:13
there. It's going to be a little while
55:14
before we get back out there. But, I
55:16
think that has been the most significant
55:18
thing that we have been doing over the
55:19
last couple of years.
55:21
Wow. That is absolutely incredible.
55:24
Um and you know, I know I know obviously
55:26
this might be a good opportunity to
55:27
mention your book, Jen.
55:29
Oh, my book that I have right here?
55:32
Exactly.
55:34
Um it's called The Adriatic Affair, A
55:35
Maritime Hit and Run Off the Coast of
55:37
Nantucket, and it is about the sinking
55:39
of the La Bourgogne. Um and I think one
55:42
of the things that is so cool about this
55:43
story is that, you know, most shipwreck
55:46
stories
55:48
end when passengers are rescued, right?
55:50
Or or or or passengers are not, right?
55:53
They end with the the end of the
55:56
the
55:57
the shipwreck story. Um but this really
56:00
was truly a hit-and-run. It was a
56:02
captain from the United States who had
56:04
this collision and then went back to
56:05
shore, didn't tell anybody he had
56:06
collided with another vessel, tried to
56:09
cover it up, gets arrested in France,
56:11
and there's a trial.
56:13
Um so the whole second half of the book
56:15
is about this trial in France, so it's
56:17
almost like a courtroom drama for the
56:18
second half of the book. And as a
56:20
lawyer, I'm a a criminal defense lawyer
56:21
by day,
56:23
uh so as a lawyer and a shipwreck
56:25
hunter, this was like worlds colliding.
56:27
Um
56:28
and there's also an epilogue that talks
56:30
about our exploration on Georges Bank
56:32
and D V Tenacious and who we are and
56:34
what we do. Uh it's fantastic. I I I I
56:36
love the fact that
56:39
you are now part of the story.
56:42
And the fact that you've documented it
56:43
all and everything, I think that is
56:45
absolutely fabulous. And it's
56:47
it's one of the things that I personally
56:49
love about um shipwreck exploration is
56:51
the fact that you you find all these
56:53
incredible stories and then you become
56:55
part of them by the fact you found the
56:56
shipwreck. So it's absolutely I love it.
56:58
And I can what you've talked about all
57:00
those years of research and all those
57:03
visits to the bunker and then to
57:05
absolutely crack the case, that just
57:07
must be an absolutely amazing um amazing
57:10
feeling. So, yeah, well done.
57:14
Thanks. And I'll tell you what, we I
57:16
think we'll come back if you're happy
57:17
and we'll do a longer video about that
57:19
and we'll do we'll do a bit more about
57:21
it because uh clearly that's absolutely
57:23
fantastic.
57:25
That would be great, yeah.
57:26
I think what we should probably do now
57:28
is draw things to a close and just to
57:31
say thank you both so much for taking
57:34
the time to talk with me and that the
57:36
people who will listen and and watch
57:38
this and thank you.
57:41
Thank you so much for having us.
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