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Copychat - Security with Rob Cairns
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Jan 15, 2020
We talk about how to keep your business assets secure Rob's website: https://stunningdigitalmarketing.com/ email newsletter: https://stunningdigitalmarketing.com/free/ Rob on Twitter: https://twitter.com/RobCairns Rob on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/RobCairns
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0:00
oh hey no countdown needed hey everyone
0:04
this is Todd this is the next episode of
0:08
copy chat one day I'll get a whole lot
0:10
better at the introductions and closings
0:12
but until then you just get the deal
0:15
with me doing these little lives and
0:18
I've got my friend Rob on today and Rob
0:21
is a digital marketer from Toronto and
0:23
we're gonna talk about security of some
0:26
of those things Rob you wanna tell us a
0:28
little bit about yourself before we get
0:29
going here
0:30
sure cane hey Todd thanks for having me
0:32
so my background is an interesting mix
0:36
for a digital marketer I have a very
0:38
technical background I spent four years
0:41
or five years programming in the
0:43
insurance business which take him
0:45
another school as an old-school COBOL
0:47
programmer decided I didn't like that
0:49
very much and I got in the tech support
0:51
at one at Ron's biggest Hospital sunny
0:54
but constable I was there for 21 years I
0:57
was the team lead for the on-call team
1:01
for client services so we were the ones
1:03
who did the end user support I provide
1:08
the field support over to the call
1:09
center I had to ask about one time
1:11
providing remote support I was also a
1:14
project leader and major IT projects
1:17
everything from PCs into the ER to stuff
1:21
in the OL art you name it and as a
1:26
result I have a very strong technical
1:28
background 10 years ago to a mirror
1:32
changes are not packaged out and I
1:35
started my own digital marketing agency
1:37
where I provide full scale service for
1:40
fortune 500 companies a medium and small
1:43
businesses today all right so that's a
1:51
little bit about your background so you
1:53
have a sense of background IT can you
1:56
talk a bit about some of the things
1:58
you've done and in IT and security it
2:02
sure everything from diagnosing problems
2:07
with pcs or laptops in the windows world
2:10
network connectivity I'm a CCNA which is
2:14
a cisco designations of troubleshooting
2:17
networks to see where we are in
2:19
connectivity issues in terms of security
2:23
pretty well everything from viruses to
2:27
detecting our system cleaning viruses to
2:30
clinging malware to helping clients with
2:32
backup strategies to even believe
2:37
they're not part of security searching
2:38
on employees pcs for things they should
2:42
not be doing in the business world and
2:44
I've run into some rather interesting
2:47
stories so I can share some I can't
2:50
share kind of public chat but let's just
2:54
say like we share what can you share you
2:57
know I like stories stories are engaging
3:00
so share one you can share he has so
3:03
many many years ago after September 11th
3:06
we I was troubleshooting it together and
3:09
I was looking at data and the manager
3:12
said to me when you loved fixing my boys
3:14
problem would you take off for me and
3:16
see if it was not doing anything you
3:18
should have been doing without
3:21
mentioning what department
3:23
two weeks after September 11th we found
3:26
all the textbook information on how to
3:29
make the pipe bomb on this PC thanks and
3:31
that was right after September 11th so
3:34
you can understand the issues with that
3:36
the material is not illegal because you
3:40
can find the information in an old
3:42
school chemistry book in the library if
3:44
you want to go looking but we had both
3:46
the RCMP which is rotating around the
3:49
police and Toronto police involved just
3:52
because of the timing in and such and
3:56
the end result without one was he
3:58
actually lost his job to the having
4:00
inappropriate information contrary to
4:03
hospital direction on his PC he was
4:07
never charged criminally because he
4:08
didn't know anything criminal and I'm
4:13
sure some of the stories revised
4:14
probably wanted a big apology was that
4:18
one also some great ones yeah that was
4:21
actually was early in my career too
4:24
now you've been doing something
4:26
interesting the last week or so updating
4:31
Windows 7 can you talk a little bit
4:33
about that yeah I'd gladly
4:35
so what I'll tell you is one to several
4:37
my end of life vol as we call it
4:39
yesterday they said well they do was
4:46
coming and they didn't back off now one
4:48
thing so yesterday was the last Patch
4:51
Tuesday which is the Tuesday the
4:54
Microsoft rolls out all the security
4:56
patches and that was the last set of
5:00
those now there is one more update I've
5:03
found out for Windows 7 that will come
5:06
they are gonna push out the new edge
5:08
browser believe it or not still the
5:10
Windows 7 users just as they thank you
5:14
very much kind of thing but that is
5:16
coming but basically it's endo life
5:19
which means Microsoft is not supported
5:22
the only way they get support if you're
5:26
a business for what's called the
5:27
extended support so that option is still
5:30
there and then from there we can I've
5:35
been updating Windows 7 Windows 10 pcs
5:38
I've done probably over 20 of them I've
5:41
got one more beside me for a relative
5:44
and basically what happened was when
5:47
Windows 10 him out they offer free
5:49
upgrades from Windows 7 in Windows 10
5:51
Microsoft is very quietly left
5:55
activation server turned on so again if
5:58
you have Windows 7
6:00
go do your upgrade now it will probably
6:02
activate to Windows 10 fine I have not
6:05
run in I've run into one problem but
6:08
it's not due to the activation service I
6:10
remember doing that for a laptop after
6:12
Windows 10 came out I don't remember
6:17
which one it was but anyway so I'm not
6:23
gonna her live doesn't look really that
6:27
great but it has probably has more to do
6:29
with me than it does with you I got a
6:32
little bit of a glitch while ago so I
6:33
don't know if that'll show up in the
6:35
video or not but
6:37
okay wait yeah and if it did oh well I
6:40
guess we'll anyway but the the point is
6:45
that you were going through is basically
6:47
Windows 7 has end-of-life now yeah and
6:51
if you have Windows 7 you need to either
6:53
go out and buy a brand new computer or
6:55
upgrade to Windows 10 because there are
6:58
no more after this next patch that comes
7:00
out there are no more and if you and if
7:03
you have an older computer the answer to
7:06
that if you're gonna buy a new one like
7:07
did you go down download one of the free
7:10
linux distro distributions and go that
7:12
and there's pop OS which works out
7:16
really good for multiple of legacy
7:19
systems as linux mint mint m int or
7:23
ubuntu and and if you and you and they
7:26
don't have live cds so you can add to
7:28
boot off the CD or offer even test the
7:33
operating system to see how it runs on
7:35
their machine so if you're buying the
7:37
new machine don't throw that old one
7:39
away it might be a good second seat for
7:42
the house I get that actually I have one
7:45
and I probably will get all the
7:47
doctrines as if I don't need off of it
7:49
and probably do what you just said and
7:52
but but it still runs it's just way
7:55
slower way slower it did you know it
7:59
acts like it's a 90 year old man
8:00
basically and I know several school
8:04
boards a good friend of mine show that
8:07
so one of my good friends let's say
8:08
there's a class they have five donated
8:12
units pcs because there's a program out
8:15
there where they've actually gone round
8:17
and shared reinstalled old computers and
8:21
donated them back to school boards the
8:23
kids have extra machines and they all
8:25
work in the cloud anyway so it doesn't
8:27
really matter
8:30
yeah oh yeah it works and you know I
8:34
mean it's also it's kind of interesting
8:35
me because I looked into the idea of
8:37
getting a Chromebook and I've heard a
8:39
lot of people say they they really like
8:41
your Chromebook so measure most
8:43
everything we do now Assaf space it's on
8:46
the cloud if you will I mean a chrome
8:48
really is good enough if you
8:51
all you need is something to like go to
8:53
the coffee shop do some work whatever
8:55
would yeah yeah I would agree we're back
8:58
to when I started in my career as a
9:00
programmer I had a terminal on my desk
9:03
not on a PC and in essence we're using
9:06
our computers for a lot of people as
9:08
glorified computers so what I what I
9:11
would suggest any home user retired
9:14
person if you're not doing video editing
9:16
and you're not doing audio editing go
9:22
get a Chromebook you notice I don't put
9:24
photos in there because there's a lot of
9:27
good photo editing packages are online
9:29
yeah and Adobe Photoshop is now
9:34
available for an iPad as of Adobe
9:37
Connect in December so basically it's
9:40
the video editing and the the audio
9:44
editing that's driving at the average
9:45
person doesn't even need a full scale PC
9:48
in their house but the advantage of a
10:02
Chromebook from a security standpoint is
10:04
when you reboot it power washes itself
10:07
so it actually cleans up after itself
10:10
and then you don't have the viruses in
10:12
the malware that I did not know yeah I I
10:17
really thought about the Chromebook and
10:19
whenever I when I went ahead and got a
10:22
regular laptop for one it wasn't very
10:24
expensive
10:25
I got a something that was kind of on
10:27
clearance and what I needed I was just
10:30
afraid that I might need some programs
10:32
that were Windows base yeah I wouldn't
10:34
have had that with the Chrome and so now
10:37
I'm not still eventually now also
10:39
Chromebooks or no no less expensive than
10:42
a regular laptop either there's some
10:44
yeah so that's enough that was the other
10:46
thing I thought well maybe a chrome will
10:48
be less expensive it's really not so
10:50
it's just it just kind of depends on
10:52
what you need but I think for traveling
10:55
or something like that a chrome would be
10:56
more than enough if you needed you know
10:59
if you had to still do some work but
11:00
maybe not full suite and you're on the
11:03
road
11:03
are you going to a word camp or
11:04
something like that your own book would
11:06
to be more than adequate for that so
11:08
much of what I do a third a third or
11:11
more of what I do is on Google I mean
11:13
Google Drive
11:14
Gmail you know I'm basically powered by
11:19
Google I'm not sure what that says about
11:21
me but it is true now speaking of
11:27
Windows 10 there was a new security risk
11:31
that came out and when it makes the
11:33
national news I tend to pay attention so
11:38
can you tell us a little bit about the
11:39
the new vulnerability and I know I
11:42
posted something on my Facebook wall
11:44
this morning somebody was asking
11:45
questions honestly I don't know the
11:47
details of it very much I just know that
11:49
if it's on the morning news then it's
11:52
been a you know it's a pretty
11:53
significant security vulnerability and
11:56
you need to go in so they they basically
11:59
found some zero-day for us I in it and
12:03
I've got a good friend of mine who
12:06
actually I was on the call with in
12:08
Ontario shout out Derek and he is a
12:10
security expert in the corporate world
12:13
security appliances as a consultant we
12:15
were talking about this and we're
12:17
talking about some other things and the
12:20
patches that came up yesterday arch and
12:26
the furnace have been beaten and even
12:29
sooner than later as an entrepreneur
12:31
because the last thing you want is your
12:33
banking information compromised your
12:35
other so it's basically zero day falls
12:38
and what people think that remember is
12:41
the minute they announce what the
12:42
patches are fixing that gives all the
12:44
script kiddies another avenue to say oh
12:47
we know what's out there so let's go
12:49
fishing and where they find a lot of
12:52
these compromised machines is in places
12:54
like Asia in places like China which is
12:57
part of Asia places like Russia Ukraine
13:00
seems to be bad and basically what
13:03
happens is these script kiddies so the
13:06
people doing these attacks they buy kits
13:08
there by what's called an exploit kit as
13:11
basically a script that runs around in
13:13
their tax machines and they paid for the
13:15
kit so they're not true
13:17
hackers who would I call strip practice
13:19
and then they run around they do
13:21
interesting so basically you need to
13:24
update today I would have updated last
13:27
night but if I had it but my new
13:30
computer thinks on automatic install so
13:33
it was like every day there's a patch of
13:35
updates and it's like okay so I had to
13:38
go prompt the one in here in the office
13:40
to update so okay so updating and
13:45
end-of-life for windows 7 update Windows
13:48
10 keep everything updated one thing I
13:50
wanted to talk to you about wanted you
13:51
to discuss we have a few minutes left is
13:54
to talk about how we're since we're
13:58
solopreneurs probably 80% of our
14:00
business is on our computer yeah what is
14:03
what are some things that we can do to
14:06
protect our assets that kind of stuff
14:10
our digital assets so I I suggest for
14:13
solopreneurs easy ways to go by to
14:16
removable hard drives and basically what
14:21
you do is you back up all your data
14:22
visits to drives and take one to another
14:25
location so take one to a friend's take
14:28
one to a house cost of a terabyte
14:31
removable drive the site in Canada's
14:34
like 59 bucks it's like 50 bucks in the
14:36
state's $100 talk it in your schedule do
14:40
it on a weekly basis alternate to drive
14:43
at home in it at the office or at a
14:46
friend's house or wherever you choose to
14:47
store it if you're not gonna go get a
14:51
remote removable drive or two of them
14:55
mean you only get one can pay for a
14:57
backup service pay for something like
14:58
carbonate or jungle disk which is the
15:02
Amazon service and it will do it
15:05
automatically
15:06
now caveat with those services they
15:08
usually don't backup multimedia files
15:10
because multimedia bullying and other
15:12
clouds of salt so but but that's what I
15:16
would do and just and just make sure you
15:18
do it regularly if you have a solid
15:21
backup plan
15:22
you will recover you say removable I'm
15:27
thinking external drives out the same
15:29
thing as you're saying removable
15:31
remove remove remove external dry
15:34
something again yeah this is a Western
15:37
Digital one terabyte drive that sits on
15:40
my desk I don't use it for backup
15:42
because they use a more involved
15:43
strategy but that's the minimum you
15:45
should do it's a hand box and frankly if
15:49
you have to recreate all that data as a
15:50
business owner it's gone across the way
15:52
more than that so let me ask you this if
15:56
I get a external drive I go down to Best
16:00
Buy or whatever you get external drive
16:02
does it come with a pre-installed
16:03
software to help with the backup
16:05
sometimes it does I actually suggest the
16:09
window small business I'm just just copy
16:12
the folders to the drive do it that
16:14
simple okay
16:15
so no reason they use some kind of
16:18
automated deal no and now we've touched
16:21
on backups one more spot I wanted to
16:23
touch on is email and security and just
16:25
because there's a small business owner
16:27
guys you need to stop clicking on the
16:30
links from your bank's the Apple iTunes
16:33
or any of us in your email some of those
16:35
links are what they call spoofed links
16:38
so they might say one thing they go
16:39
somewhere else and a lot of those links
16:42
especially ones from people you don't
16:44
know actually send you to ransomware
16:47
sites and what ransomware basically does
16:49
is encrypts the files and can cause all
16:53
kinds average there was three there was
16:56
a whole problem in this value so for
16:58
that got hit this late last year and and
17:01
they charged a lot of money for them to
17:04
to give you back so do that and then as
17:08
a small business owner the other thing
17:10
you gotta do is watch your passwords so
17:13
I actually suggested by though a
17:14
password manager my choice of the
17:18
password manager is LastPass but one
17:21
password on the Mac works just as well
17:23
and these random passwords and to start
17:27
to do stuff like that and then as you
17:29
progress move on to things like to spec
17:32
by Penta Gatien to kind of help yourself
17:35
even more and just take the time to do
17:38
I'm always I'm always telling people use
17:40
a password manager to follow my on
17:43
you're running a business you have
17:45
you're not gonna have just one or two
17:46
passwords you're gonna have multiple
17:48
ones so I know I recently got a company
17:51
to start using LastPass I think so I was
17:55
pretty excited about that but yeah you
17:57
something LastPass or I actually use up
17:59
called passpack it's kind of a different
18:02
but it's but it's similar I mean in
18:04
there so and I actually have LastPass
18:06
too so I have two options there I'm
18:09
playing around with two options so let
18:11
me share something with you about starts
18:13
- if you pay for the family plan the
18:16
last box you actually can set it up so
18:20
that is some email last night
18:23
so I actually pay for the family will by
18:25
then is set up so the something happens
18:27
to me my wife can email as fast which
18:31
will give a readout that's just of my
18:33
vault and I've got it set up for seven
18:36
days so basically they what they do is
18:38
they turn around and email me and if
18:40
they don't get a response in seven days
18:42
then they release the vault to the
18:44
person you've just made it there you
18:46
have a corporate version which if you
18:49
have an employee can be handy you don't
18:51
actually have to give the employee
18:53
passwords it just lets some more game
18:55
from the bastards and doesn't even show
18:57
them what the passwords are so that's an
19:00
advantage of some of their paid
19:01
offerings and anybody who's a big fan of
19:06
will puts twit Network will know
19:08
LastPass is actually now sponsoring Leo
19:11
studio it's now called the LastPass to
19:13
do as of January the 1st different
19:16
interesting so I need mr. Teel sponsored
19:19
what do you think yeah a stunning
19:22
digital marketing copy chance to do I do
19:25
that yeah talk a little bit about
19:30
backups to like back after website Oh
19:35
bang up your wet backing up your website
19:38
is really important the way I do web
19:41
site backups is i backup every website
19:44
that i maintain and we've got over a
19:46
couple hundred websites on care plans on
19:48
a daily basis every week i take that the
19:53
weekly and i put it somewhere typically
19:55
on a monday then what I do
19:58
is I keep three to six months of backups
20:02
offline going back any more than three
20:04
months is usually large and you say why
20:07
do you keep three months if it's a
20:09
website because the exploit might have
20:11
been injected three weeks ago and not
20:13
activated till today so you might have
20:15
to go back for it so and my tour choices
20:19
up updraftplus premium which is a
20:22
wordpress plugin there is a free version
20:24
which you've used on and it's really
20:27
good actually
20:29
are there tools in the WordPress space
20:31
all-in-one migration backup buddy
20:34
the several of them vivid I have played
20:39
around with that a little bit and I'm
20:40
impressed with it as well and the free
20:43
vertebrae the free version is really
20:50
well it's and I think Raj indra our
20:54
friend Raj from was a cloud weighs
20:56
what's a run cloud he he's a big
21:00
advocate for it but I played with it and
21:02
really and really I tried it on my demo
21:05
and it works very much like updraft
21:08
honestly though I thought was a little
21:10
bit easier to authenticate with Google
21:13
Drive then updraft was for me so yeah
21:17
very it you know so that's another one
21:19
to consider know some people they're
21:21
just there's so many options out there
21:23
yeah and there are really good options
21:24
out there so so the one caveat I have
21:27
with backups is make sure you can
21:29
restore your website or your data before
21:31
they actually need to so most people run
21:34
backups and then they go do a restore
21:35
and they're like oh darn this doesn't
21:38
work well built that injured process so
21:40
what I do is I test restored every time
21:44
I take on a new client I'll test them on
21:46
a test domain and just do a restore to
21:48
make sure their days a resource so take
21:50
that extra step how does that work set
21:53
up a clone site I basically set up for
21:58
clone site on a sub domain most of the
22:01
decides that backup body or on migration
22:04
or updraft if you pay for them they they
22:07
adjust the URLs and I just face it but I
22:11
did adjust
22:12
to URLs for that test site and then test
22:15
the site for functionality just to make
22:17
sure what's okay and and and even when
22:21
you're backing up your day to forget
22:22
your website make sure you can actually
22:25
recover it because if you can't recover
22:27
work what's the one they're doing the
22:28
backup
22:29
sure that makes sense and I and I
22:30
haven't done that I need to try some but
22:33
I have we had restore a few times and it
22:35
worked brilliantly using a graph so I
22:40
they've been really good for me I've had
22:44
trouble in the past I don't know that it
22:46
has to do with the actual plugins as
22:48
much as it had to do with the hosts I
22:51
was using at the time I think hosting
22:53
big a big part of the whole component
22:56
and some hosts will actually do backups
22:59
for you as well so and you have said to
23:01
me before not to trust just the hosting
23:04
for your backup so yeah there's been
23:07
several hosts said have been had backup
23:10
services compromised there was one in
23:12
Australia about five years ago their
23:14
backup server that hacked and they were
23:16
one Australia's biggest those there was
23:19
warning Europe if you remember the story
23:21
that was running around the groups the
23:23
Facebook groups in October or September
23:25
that got theirs hacked
23:28
I think the hosting backup to be handy
23:31
but I wouldn't put my eggs in that
23:32
basket I've seen too many problems and
23:35
by the way if you ask a host to help you
23:37
they're gonna say do it
23:39
they typically not always take backups
23:42
every week some of the hosts on shared
23:44
hosting plans only take backups every
23:46
two or three weeks and then so if you
23:49
need something yesterday you can't get
23:51
it and then they say by the way it goes
23:54
in queue and it's if you're not gonna do
23:56
it yourself it's gonna take a couple
23:58
days well business owner doesn't have a
24:00
couple of days he's seen it
24:02
so I actually strongly advocated that
24:05
WordPress owners should pay for
24:07
WordPress care plans
24:08
there's several guys out there if I can
24:11
help you let me know these other people
24:13
offering them you know find some yeah
24:15
and you know there's a lot of people
24:18
were you know and and hopefully the
24:20
people that did listen to the show know
24:24
that I write regularly for main WP witch
24:26
is a management dashboard and so we have
24:30
a lot of people in that Facebook group
24:33
who are main WP users who offer this
24:35
service to their clients and then abroad
24:38
so yeah there's no shortage of people
24:41
you know business owners I would think
24:43
most of them just don't mean IIIi just
24:45
took on a couple new clients and I see
24:47
what they're doing they're working their
24:49
tail off they don't have time to mess
24:50
with this stuff so most business owners
24:54
don't have that time so being able to
24:56
pay a token amount of money per month to
24:59
let somebody take care of that for you I
25:01
think is a good investment so and it's a
25:05
it should be part of your security plan
25:06
I mean I mean when you use a reputable
25:09
person to manage your site they're gonna
25:14
implement a back-up plan for your site
25:17
so much similar to what Rob was just
25:21
saying so well man we could do this all
25:25
day
25:25
I have made a commitment to myself not
25:29
to make these too long I do have another
25:32
topic I want to bring you on for we've
25:34
already talked about that so we'll we'll
25:36
catch that the next show and I'm working
25:39
on a sign-off which I don't have a very
25:43
good one but you have a good one you've
25:45
adopted and yet can you tell us stuff
25:48
that what that is are getting real quick
25:49
so here we go and I and you know I'm a
25:53
big fan of Casey Kasem from American top
25:58
40 and he had a sign up saying keep your
26:01
feet on the ground keep reaching for the
26:03
stars and I strongly believe in that
26:05
philosophy and I've conduct a standard
26:08
that I say keep your feet on the ground
26:09
keep reaching for the stars and make
26:11
your business succeed there you go and I
26:13
just keep thinking from the Peach State
26:15
of Georgia so long and that's the old
26:18
Gore for you wrestling fans and not
26:20
everybody listening as wrestling fans
26:21
but but Rob knows I'm talking about yeah
26:23
we will do a podcast just on wrestling
26:25
one day but from the Peach State of
26:28
Georgia so long is what he said and
26:30
that's when he was at Georgia champion
26:31
wrestling while Peach State is the
26:33
Georgia is Georgia well I know I don't
26:35
live in Georgia so I don't think it
26:37
would be a bad bad for me to say from
26:40
the
26:40
each state of Georgia because I don't
26:41
live in Georgia so maybe from the
26:44
natural state but I I come up with
26:46
something look good at some point I
26:48
don't want to stray too far from content
26:51
but I thought security was worth having
26:54
a conversation about because anybody who
26:56
is a digital creator a solopreneur
26:58
whether you're a copywriter a Content
27:02
marketer a web developer course person
27:06
who does the courses those kind of
27:08
things you we all have security issues
27:11
and and I thought that we should address
27:14
that and I appreciate you coming on the
27:16
show talking about that and as I said in
27:18
the future we've got some other things
27:19
won't talk about my pleasure but Rob do
27:22
me one last favor before you go off the
27:24
show tell everybody where they can find
27:25
Rob Karen's online and give us your
27:30
social media and your website address
27:31
that kind of thing sure couple times my
27:34
agency's website is stunning digital
27:36
marketing calm I'd be glad to help you
27:38
if you'd like to get and these weather
27:41
to help unite unstable marketing.com
27:45
slash free I will be shortening that up
27:48
to a shorter URL but for now that's the
27:51
URL Rob Terence on Twitter tweet at me I
27:54
do like Twitter believe it or not
27:57
physical slash rough Terrence that works
28:01
as well comes hello I am in several
28:04
groups Todd's group young commoners
28:06
content creators the vengers group smart
28:10
web traders come say I ask a question
28:12
they're the three I'm really involved in
28:15
I'm also in several vecas groups as well
28:19
so I'm around I'm approachable ask you a
28:22
question one thing I like to do is help
28:24
people or you can email me at Robert at
28:27
stunning digital article all right man
28:30
appreciate it very much appreciate you
28:31
guys joining into the copy chat show
28:35
today I'm gonna try to do as many of
28:37
these this years I can I'm probably not
28:39
as good as the vendor is at this stuff
28:41
but you know gotta get started somewhere
28:44
so this is my getting started so hope
28:47
you guys have a great time a great day
28:49
we'll see you here on the next show talk
28:52
to everybody sir thanks Todd bye
28:54
right
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