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What should the copy on your website say anyway?
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Jun 4, 2022
Todd Earl Jones of Copyflight joins me on this live recording of the Business Storytelling Show to discuss the importance of web copy. How do we know what to say? What words should we use? And more... To learn more about Todd's company visit: https://www.copyflight.com/wcf/ Powered by Restream https://restre.am/yt
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this is the business storytelling show
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today's episode let's go
0:58
[Music]
1:02
let's go business storytellers hey how's
1:04
everyone doing today we want to talk
1:06
about
1:07
crappy websites or
1:10
maybe websites that can be better that
1:12
are less than perfect so to speak
1:15
sometimes you know i see websites and um
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it's the usability it's horrible they're
1:20
horrible to use on the web
1:23
it's not set up correctly it's not the
1:25
best practices aren't followed and
1:27
sometimes
1:29
it's the copy
1:30
the copy is crap
1:32
from typos to the wrong words
1:35
to superlatives i think you guys all
1:38
know my opinion when opponent comes to
1:39
superlatives right this is the best
1:41
podcast ever this is the best haircut
1:44
ever this is whatever i'm the
1:46
industry-leading podcaster according to
1:48
my marketing team right
1:50
so what kind of language should we
1:52
actually use on the website what kind of
1:54
language works what makes sense so i
1:56
asked to come on the show todd jones
1:59
he's he's a strategic storytelling
2:02
expert for companies
2:04
that have
2:05
the disease of
2:06
message confusion
2:09
let's find out what todd has to say
2:11
about that topic todd welcome to the
2:14
show
2:15
give me a fist bump here
2:19
that's how we do it right
2:23
there's no right or wrong how you fist
2:25
bump that's you know as long as you
2:26
don't smack the camera uh we're good to
2:29
go hey so tell me about um when it comes
2:32
to websites is that just my perception
2:34
that there's just a lot of crappy crappy
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less than perfect websites
2:40
out there when it comes to copy
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yeah i'd say even the best ones have
2:44
problems right so
2:46
because nothing's perfect um
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but
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yeah i think there are
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a lot of room for improvement
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and um
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you know we're talking about copywriting
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but you mention a lot of things that
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that also go into that with
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usability accessibility
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uh which is another issue um
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and you know just uh copywriters are
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more than just word writers so we we'll
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look at uh you know the entire
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website and
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we can really
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dissect different parts of the website
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and actually my background before i ever
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started writing
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website copy was building websites so i
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know a little bit about that as well and
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so
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definitely a lot of companies could i
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think the biggest problem with copy for
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websites is the lack of clarity and
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probably comes back to the company not
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being clear themselves
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about who they are and what they do
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well
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well first of all you do have to be
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clear yourself right when um
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what you're going to talk about what's
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unique about your company
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and we can dive in we can dig into that
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a little deeper but but how about the
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whole process like how do you come up
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with clear copy and i'm just thinking
4:08
about
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um
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you know crappy workflows i mean this is
4:13
a record-breaking show today the amount
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of times i've mentioned crappy but you
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know
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there's so many out there like so many
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workflows where people go to content
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creators and say i need a piece of
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content
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like what does that mean right i need
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some copy for the website and somebody
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else already built the website nobody
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talked to you about
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what's the plan right don't get me
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started on lorem ipsum you know like
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that shouldn't be a placeholder you
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should talk about that so how do
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companies even start getting better
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copy better content on their website
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that makes sense to the end user well if
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you're a company and you're having a
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website built right now like if that's
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in the next six three six months and
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you're gonna engage a web developer or a
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company like that bring up copy from the
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very beginning
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they will tell you whether they can do
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that or not and most cases they can't
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but in some cases they'll have a
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copywriter on team or they'll work with
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a copywriter
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but i like to say that copywriting
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really has three parts to it that are
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almost equal really you have
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the research
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the strategy and the writing and the
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writing is more than just writing
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there's also editing unique copy editing
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as well as just making sure that it's
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grammarly uh
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grammarly that app has become a a verb
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in our vernacular but a grant your
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grammar is correct you you've spelled
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all your words correctly
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uh those kinds of things and those are
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easy to
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those particular things are easy to slip
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through the cracks if you're not i think
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whatever you do have an extra set of
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eyes because we see what you know what
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we're
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wanting to see what we need to see and
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we miss those little you know misspelled
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something by one letter or whatever
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or we mean to say one word we say the
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same we say a word
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but we meant the other variation of the
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word
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uh like two two and two those kinds of
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things and so an editor and a copy
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editor
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uh can help with that a copy editor is
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their goal is to help you be clear
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concise and compelling
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so they will streamline that
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you may need a brief some copywriters
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will request a brief if you're working
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with copywriter
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they want to know
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important crucial details like
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who is your target audience
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um
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what are the problems you're solving
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for that target audience um
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what are the features of your product or
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service and what are the benefits of
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those
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uh features
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and
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you know some of those types of things
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which are crucial i call it your
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messaging compass
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it is like a compass for writing the
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copy for the website i do like to say
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that
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on your website you tell two stories
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the first story is your customer story
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so what is that customer journey what
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does that story look like
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what are the features and benefits you
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know what what sold them on your product
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or service the other story is yours your
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own uh your own story
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and those stories have to
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uh connect
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because the your story has to be
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relevant to their story otherwise it's
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just a story so relevant so it has to be
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strategic so those are some starting
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points i think
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um if you're if you're building a
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website now if you've already built the
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website uh you go back and engage a
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copywriter or
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uh
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you know we we talk about market
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research that's kind of a fancy name but
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you really need to do the research
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uh for the things i talked about for the
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messaging compass you know what are the
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features of our product or service
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what are the benefits of those features
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what is the emotional connection
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um who is our target audit ultimately
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you're gonna you're gonna come up with a
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unique value proposition with it there's
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like i think i say four questions
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who am i what do i do who do i do it for
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and how do i do it differently if you
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can answer those four questions you can
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begin to put together your unique value
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proposition
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i think especially the how do i do it
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differently question is very difficult
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because there's so much crossover and
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and everybody kind of does similar
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right
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when you look at
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marketers and
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others out there and
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destroy
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and it's everybody kind of does similar
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but slightly slightly different
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what i found interesting todd you talked
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about three things uh when to get
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started um only one included writing
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part and i think people get about that
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how writing is certainly part of it
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because otherwise you're not going to
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have any copy but you need to think
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about what you're going to do why you're
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going to do it
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so you talk about research and strategy
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talk about research how do we
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figure out what uh
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what we should be doing and of course
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you know i'd be remiss to not mention
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voxpopme.com
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check them out uh director of content
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strategy there uh
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sas platform for you to do asynchronous
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surveys with your customers so they can
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answer your questions on their own time
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uh through video feedback check that out
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boxpopme.com
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is that the kind of research you were
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talking about or you do have something
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else in mind yeah i think that's part of
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it um and it may be that you're the the
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best way to find out those questions
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about
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um
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what are your you you should know what
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your features the features of your
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product or services and i've looked for
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a definition for this and i have
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struggled to find that but
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when you think about a product you think
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about software okay
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software as a service they often talk
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about here are features you know
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you can
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you have a dashboard and you can view
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this and you know those are features but
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what does that mean how does it connect
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that that's something that you should
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that's probably an internal research uh
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situation there um but really you know
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in the copywriting world we talk about
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voice of customer research it's a fancy
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word for knowing what your customer says
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about you
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and the best way to do that is surveys
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uh in interviews um so i have a friend
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named uh adrian barnes who's really good
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at doing the survey and she she really
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has informed a lot of what i do she
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talks about it from the jobs to be done
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framework
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i like to talk about what is the story
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what did it take for your customer to
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get to where they bought bought your
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product or service what was going on
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before you know there's a story there uh
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you know find out what that story is
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what what was it like when they decided
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to choose you
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and what is it like
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when they worked with you and after what
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is it like what is that story and you
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can really do that do with interviews
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and surveys you can also do
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what we like to call data mining if
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you've got good enough reviews and
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reviews are not always reviews and
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testimonials are not always that great
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really they they tend to be the
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superlatives right you know
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uh
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you know
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scott was great and scott did this one i
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mean it's just not really always good
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but sometimes if they have good reviews
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you can
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mine through that and and pick out the
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things that
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that obviously connected
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with the customer so
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that is definitely one aspect of the
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research i would do you have to research
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what
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uh the customer says about you
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uh what their story was i think another
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aspect of research is researching
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internally you know what are those
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things you talked about how we do it
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differently that is a huge thing
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that can be your
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your um
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positioning as a company so
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being coming from the web development
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web design community
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there's hundreds of hundreds of them out
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there and i i tell them all times how
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did they choose you between you know how
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do they choose you over the next person
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what is the difference you guys all look
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the same um
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so
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one of the ways you can do that is by
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your process um you know
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you have a process maybe you've branded
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the process maybe your differentiation
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or what you do it differ you do
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differently is how you approach what you
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do
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uh those are some things that's kind of
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like internal research you know this is
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um
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this is how we are different and um so
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uh that would be kind of it's it's
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really kind of it can be in depth really
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if you talk about doing both internal
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and external research
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i do personally think
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research is so important because
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otherwise how do you know what people
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even think and how they feel about your
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brain and even the problem you're trying
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to solve i mean i've done that a number
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of times in my career and you know
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sometimes you just it's as simple as
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changing the the wording i mean i'll
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give you an example i had the authentic
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storytelling project which in theory
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makes a lot of sense but that's not
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really what anybody calls it that's not
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really what anybody uses and so it was
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time to change that at some point
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you know if i would have done research
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before i started it maybe i wouldn't
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have even gone down that road or you
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know maybe i was so far ahead that it
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was still a good experience it was still
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a good learning experience but certainly
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that could have helped now you have
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there's different types of copy on the
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website though right because you have
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copy for different parts of the
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funnel so if for example
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a blog post i mean i'm not necessarily
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trying to convert you even though if you
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want to convert fine i'm happy to push
13:58
you down the funnel but
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at the end of the day right that's very
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different copy that's seo more than you
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know trying to explain so so how do you
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kind of
14:08
explain the features and benefits of
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somebody who's actively looking for your
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product how do you kind of wrangle the
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different types of content that a
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website has and for the different
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uh the different pieces of the customer
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journey
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well um
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you know me personally i'm going to
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start with the art what i call the
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artery pages the home the about and the
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service product pages those are the
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things that and then yes you have
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different parts of the funnel if you
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will and um
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content marketing is in itself uh
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you know on its own industry and and
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actually semrush just came out with a
14:45
fantastic like top 100 content markers a
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lot of good people and some of them are
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actually copyrighted just like plain
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copywriters on their uh conversion
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copywriters but
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i think that um doing content uh in in
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the blog article realm there are
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different like
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objectives for it
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um you certainly have the ones that the
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objective is seo
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get traction for certain keyword phrase
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that you're trying to
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make like business storytelling you
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would you would want to be doing that
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so you know you would create content
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around that i think also
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what a lot of people
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don't do in in the b2b space sometimes
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or maybe they do it too much but
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is um what is the culture of the company
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you know if you have a bigger company um
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you're trying to connect i think you
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want to try to connect with your your uh
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audience the people who
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who are your
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customers
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and you want to try to connect with them
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a little bit i'm not saying like overdo
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it but certainly you can do articles
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that kind of support the culture or
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support the values that your company has
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that's one thing you can do and then i
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think a big and often overlooked thing
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in in the content space
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is case studies
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actually i refer to them as customer
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success stories
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i think that is a huge gap that a lot of
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b2b companies have
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and if they do make them it's very data
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driven and boring so
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i prefer the customer success story
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tell that story
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there's going to be numbers in there but
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the ideal is to show a before during and
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after you're making a progression you're
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showing how their customers life changed
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or how their business changed because
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they worked with you work with your
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product and that can be a blog post
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actually and i've even seen some people
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some companies uh turn that over to
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guest posts with somebody who use their
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product and how
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they this big long detailed post about
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you know what they did
16:59
some campaign they did and they use the
17:02
product and the results they had
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case studies are just very interesting
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can be very interesting
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pieces of content
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that um
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you can utilize and
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you you have it you can have it for the
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blog post you can also have it for just
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like um evergreen content that you put
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on your website so i i think um
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and i'm
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a proponent these days of more medium
17:29
and bottom funnel content
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uh in the article
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uh because i think that the you know
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i've said this before some of my friends
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um top funnel content i'm not sure
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somebody may vehemently disagree with me
17:43
but i don't know that there's anything
17:45
else to write right um i mean
17:48
you take a keyword phrase like
17:50
storytelling or storytelling a business
17:52
or whatever
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that's been written and dissected a
17:55
hundred times thousand times at the top
17:58
of the funnel right you can do all that
18:00
and but if you're trying to get people
18:03
into your funnel right
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to get emails or if you're a company
18:08
that does demos or sales calls
18:11
might as well do middle and bottom
18:13
funnel content and
18:15
bring them into that funnel and and yeah
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i think conversion is a good thing it's
18:19
not what you want to do for every piece
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of content
18:23
but for the majority of it i think
18:25
conversion is a big a big factor for
18:28
blog content
18:30
i mean absolutely so i
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i do think i
18:34
disagree with
18:35
there's nothing to left right to write
18:37
about on the top of the funnel i think
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the problem is for many companies is
18:42
that they don't think about the unique
18:45
angles right there is no like you're
18:47
correct i mean do we need one more
18:49
article about what is storytelling no
18:51
but do we need an article on how do you
18:54
tell how do you tell business stories if
18:57
you only have an iphone or how do you
18:59
tell stories if your device runs out of
19:01
power i mean it has to be
19:03
totally dumb topic right yeah but like
19:06
all these things i mean you have to
19:08
really drill down it can't be so high
19:10
level it can't be
19:12
um you know or people everybody has in
19:14
their articles what's the definition of
19:16
blue right like so they think they're
19:18
going to rank for the definition of blue
19:21
which you know whatever you got to dive
19:22
a little deeper
19:24
you're thinking like a journalist
19:34
how do you make that work so talk about
19:36
where to start you mentioned the website
19:38
does the homepage does the home home
19:40
page still matter
19:42
yeah i think so i think um
19:45
every you know different businesses have
19:47
different purposes for the home page and
19:49
um so i you know we have three or four
19:52
kinds we have the e-commerce home page
19:53
which is
19:55
uniquely designed and developed for
19:56
e-commerce sites and that's different
19:58
than you know your regular b2b or sas
20:01
company which is kind of have it has its
20:03
own you have the newsie type homepage
20:05
which
20:06
you know i saw a thread on twitter about
20:09
pew research and how they
20:11
um
20:12
created their homepage which is full of
20:14
news articles
20:15
and then you have what i call the story
20:18
homepage which a lot of solo brands will
20:20
do because story
20:22
is central to their business so
20:24
uh i do think home page is important you
20:26
know the home page is it's like a foyer
20:29
in the house i heard somebody describe
20:31
it one time
20:33
you know people are coming in you want
20:34
to welcome them and then you want to
20:36
give them an opportunity to know where
20:37
they need to go so do they need to see
20:39
the services do they need to see the
20:41
pricing page do they need to go look at
20:43
the blog you want to make that stuff
20:45
pretty clear
20:46
and you also want at the top of that to
20:49
have your most
20:51
clear benefit statement one line you
20:53
know value proposition whatever word you
20:55
want to use for that
20:56
um you know and you want that there
20:59
and i like to say you know you might
21:02
consider starting with the about page
21:03
because everything at least the way i do
21:06
it everything you do
21:07
for the home page you do for the about
21:10
page plus you do that little self
21:13
company introspection that you have to
21:15
do for an about page those two pages
21:18
are crucial and i know a lot of people
21:20
dismiss the about page
21:22
i love about pages but
21:25
i've thought about this a while back um
21:28
seo has the schema uh tags which a lot
21:32
of people use there there is one for an
21:34
about page it that'll tell you how
21:37
important at least google thinks
21:39
um about pages are but usually if you
21:42
look at your analytics you'll see that
21:44
the about page is probably the second
21:46
most visited page
21:48
so yeah the home and about pages are
21:51
obviously very very crucial
21:54
they're still important
21:56
even if some people think they're not i
21:58
think it always depends on on what model
22:00
you're running right like what your
22:02
company is and
22:04
like on my blog kristofftrap.com there
22:06
isn't really a product page of anything
22:08
right i mean you really there's not much
22:10
you can really hire me for
22:12
at this stage you know so my articles
22:15
get by far the most traffic and nobody
22:17
really goes to the home page to skim the
22:19
articles i mean some people do that but
22:21
not really but again it's not i'm not
22:24
offering a service i'm not selling a
22:26
product i'm not doing anything like that
22:28
you know i'm really just sharing content
22:30
on there and building that up for the
22:32
time being so uh so it always depends uh
22:35
we got about four minutes left here tell
22:38
us about you created a framework to to
22:41
to get copy on your website how does
22:43
that work how do people work with you
22:45
how do they
22:46
use that framework and how do they get
22:48
it
22:49
uh well
22:51
um i think you have the link but
22:53
copyflight.com
22:55
wcf which stands for website copy
22:57
framework is kind of the landing page
22:59
for that and it is sold on gumroad um
23:02
it's a series of checklists or
23:05
worksheets i should say
23:07
uh which allow which allows people to
23:09
kind of sit down and think about things
23:12
they're probably they may still need to
23:14
do some research like when it comes to
23:17
benefits and features you might want to
23:18
talk to your customers and that kind of
23:20
thing
23:21
but you're it's a place to document all
23:23
that and
23:24
either you can take that once you've
23:26
documented it all and it's like a
23:28
repository of microcopy right of all
23:31
this stuff that that you you need to
23:33
have because you we don't what we find
23:36
is that when people try to do
23:37
uh write their own website copy they
23:39
tend to just open up you know google
23:41
documents or
23:42
word or whatever and then they stare at
23:44
a blank page they don't know what to do
23:46
so it's like building blocks and i think
23:48
famous copywriter said that copywriting
23:51
is uh
23:52
assembly not writing or something like
23:55
that and um
23:56
it really is assembly you're i like to
23:59
look at lego blocks right you're
24:01
building your lego blocks and you're
24:03
going to build your house from that
24:05
so that's what the website copy
24:06
framework does it helps you build the
24:08
lego blocks
24:10
that you can then take and turn into
24:11
website copy
24:13
and i do offer a a simple framework
24:16
which is based on some very classic
24:19
copywriting formulas and
24:22
so you can either take that to a writer
24:25
and have them to write it for you you
24:27
can
24:28
put it in the hands of somebody in house
24:30
if you've got a writer a good writer
24:31
in-house
24:32
but it's just kind of like a
24:34
self-reflective time right or company
24:36
reflective you know who who is our
24:39
target customer
24:40
you know what do we solve for them um
24:43
what are their problems you know those
24:45
kinds of things and you get to document
24:47
that in the the uh
24:50
the worksheet
24:52
and pull them all together and you can
24:54
write your
24:56
and you know i'm always a big fan of um
25:00
checklists and and those kind of things
25:01
and and many of the checklists i use
25:04
they're in my head right i mean i
25:07
like when we go live i got like this
25:09
checklist i'm going through and um like
25:11
i got to do this okay that's i'm
25:12
checking but i've done it enough times
25:15
now right i mean 510 episodes or
25:17
whatever it's been
25:19
where um sometimes i forget things you
25:21
know i forget to tell the guests that we
25:23
fist bump when we come on air so i send
25:25
the message when the opening runs and
25:27
whatever
25:28
but why is this
25:31
deeper or why do we need a checklist
25:33
that's written down is it just because
25:35
of the complexity or because we don't do
25:37
it every day
25:38
why is that necessary
25:40
you know that that last phrase might be
25:42
it we don't do it every day and
25:43
basically what i did was i took my
25:46
process
25:47
and kind of
25:49
productized it and put it in
25:51
uh worksheets and
25:53
i originally
25:55
my thinking was you know some of my
25:57
website developer friends
26:00
you know they
26:01
they have a client that needs to get a
26:02
website launched they need to get it
26:04
launched themselves uh because a lot of
26:06
times their last payment is dependent on
26:07
it and their client is dragging their
26:10
feet because they don't know how to
26:11
write the website copy
26:13
and
26:14
they can take this and either walk
26:16
through it with them
26:18
uh
26:19
or they can just hand it off and that
26:22
you know one one of my uh friends in the
26:25
web developer world said that uh one of
26:27
her clients said i didn't know what to
26:29
do but now i can do this you know just
26:31
because i think he handed them the
26:33
website copy framework he just gives
26:35
them a roadmap and yeah if somebody
26:38
doesn't do this regularly you know if
26:41
they don't do it a hundred times you
26:43
know what do you have like 500 episodes
26:45
for this thing you know yeah you
26:48
you know what to do but about a new
26:50
podcaster getting in and i have a
26:53
podcast i have several podcaster friends
26:55
but i know one who's actually put out a
26:57
checklist for new podcasters because you
26:59
know we
27:01
and i'm a new podcaster basically and
27:03
yeah i'm starting to get my routine down
27:06
and that kind of thing but you take an
27:08
expert podcaster and they give out a
27:11
little checklist even if it's a freebie
27:13
or even if they just charge for it it's
27:15
a it's big help for someone who's brand
27:17
new and i think it's the same situation
27:20
with this
27:21
yep fantastic check out the checklist
27:24
copyflight.com
27:26
i believe right docco.com
27:29
and uh todd thanks for joining me today
27:31
and thanks for sharing your insights
27:33
appreciate it thanks for having me chris
27:37
[Music]
27:40
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